Connection problems -where's the fault

<Apologies in advance if this is posted in the wrong place.>

I have had problems with my ADSL connection (pIpex) for quite some time now. Periodically, the line seems to drop out, and this is indicated by the modem/router flashing the appropriate signal informing me that there is no connection. The drop outs can last from a few minutes (sometimes recurring every five minutes or so) to anything up to five or six hours. They can generally be any time of day, though early evenings seem to be more frequent. When this happens, the telephone, which is connected to the same line, seems to work fine.

My set up is as follows: I installed a cable from my main BT point (hard-wiring it in) to a newly-installed extension socket in my spare room. From there I connect via a modem/router gateway, having just upgraded from an ISP-provided modem. The problem seems to be unaffected by this hardware change.

Also connected to the main BT socket is the house phone (via a microfilter), and until recently, the Sky digibox. The Sky box has now been unplugged permanently, and this seemed to help the problem at first, though this may have been an illusion as the service interruptions are now as bad as ever. The telephone has been replaced recently, and is now a brand new model.

I raised this with my Pipex, a while back, and they suggested that I needed to disconnect everything from the phone line and then see what happened. Having done this, the problem seems to persist.

Do I need to get the BT engineers in, or are there further tests I can do myself? Is there a possibility that the problem could be with the ISP (of course they denied that there was any chance it might be their fault).

Many thanks for any help.

Need to see your linestats. If you have an NTE5 master socket, try the router in the test socket and get linestats there too. You say you have put in an extension - what sort of cable did you use?

Thanks for the reply.

What are my linestats and how do I get them?

For the extension job, I used a kit supplied by someone selling over the internet, who provided a lot of very detailed help and seemed to know what they were doing. It was a few years back, so can't immediately recall the exact details.

I think my linestats are:

Connection Speed: 2272 (down) 288 (up)
Line Attenuation 41db (down) 15.5db (up)
Noise margin 4db (down) 3db (up)

Is that all the info you need?

For that attenuation you have a low SNR.

Do you have a phone socket which looks like this one?

If so try following these instructions to see if you get a better SNR when plugging your router into the test socket. If so some tweaking of your telephone wiring may help.

Yes, that is my main socket, from which I have taken the extension.

I'll take a look at the instructions you've provided and give it a whirl and see what happens. Example three in the link describes my set-up.

Thanks.

As SSmith says, your SNR is a bit low. You can try taking your ring wire off, it should help. But I am most interested to know what sort of cable is used on your extension.

I'm not sure that I'm happy that I opened up that master socket!

Basically, it's a bit of a dog's breakfast in there. I have four terminals numbered 2 to 5, with the following wires attached (in order, from 2 rising): (1) blue + blue/white; (2) green + orange/white; (3) brown; (4) white/blue + orange. There are two thick cables disappearing into the rear of the socket, each of which feeds some of the wires mentionedd above.

As far as I can tell, the extension cable is only connected to terminals 2 and 5.

I haven't connected via the test socket yet, as basically that would involve some major transportation of my PC system down to the kitchen, and I'm keen to put that off for as long as I can.

Is it advisable to just get an engineer in, do you think? I carefully followed the instructions when fitting the extension, but would not necessarily recognise any existing faults or problems. I get really severe service interruptions now, almost 50% of most days,and I'm not sure how much I can take!

Grateful for any help.

When you say 1, 2, 3, 4 I take it you mean 2, 3, 4, 5

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I haven't connected via the test socket yet, as basically that would involve some major transportation of my PC system down to the kitchen, and I'm keen to put that off for as long as I can. Is it advisable to just get an engineer in, do you think?

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If the transportation of your pc system to the kitchen is too much effort, then get an engineer in. I understand the charge is

...or indeed a management consultant

I did mean 2,3,4,5.

OK, point taken - my system is a nightmare to shift about, I was just wondering if the effort would be worth it. For example, if the problem is indeed with the extension, am I likely to be able to resolve this easily, or will the next step be "call for an engineer"...?

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For example, if the problem is indeed with the extension, am I likely to be able to resolve this easily, or will the next step be "call for an engineer"...?

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There are things to try, but only if you have established that the problem lies between the NTE5 and your extension socket. To do that, well you know what you need to do.

No need to shift the PC - just shift the router, and buy a long ethernet cable to connect the router to the PC.

First, thanks pitnicker and zebedee for your help so far. I have successfully migrated my PC to the kitchen, which has given me a further opportunity to a bit of dusting and tidying.

I am in the test socket, and my line stats now read:

Conn Speed 2272(d) 288(u)
Line Att 11(d) 3.5(u)
Noise margin 31(d) 26(u)

For comparison, here are my earlier linestats from the extension:

Conn Speed 2272(d) 288(u)
Line Att 41(d) 15.5(u)
Noise margin 4(d) 3(u)

While you guys are filing your pipes and mulling over the dark mysteries cotained within these figures, I intend to stay connected to the test socket for a few hours, just in case there are any further things I can do while I am here. I would be grateful if someone could let me know if there is any further information I should obtain while I am connected to the test socket, before I go back upstairs. Many thanks.

The figures you have at the test socket i.e. attenuation 11 (lower being better) and SNR 31 (higher being better) are much better then your extension figures. They would seem to indicate you may have a problem with your internal wiring.

Look here

http://www.dslzoneuk.net/socket.php

edited to add:

Looking through the previous posts I see the link has already been given.

Edited by deleted (Wed 18-Apr-07 11:47:40)

Thanks John. Without fully understanding the figures myself, it does look as if the extension could be causing the problem.

Any ideas about how to tackle this? As in, the likeliest place for a fault? As far as I can tell, I have wired up to the master socket correctly, used good quality cable, etc. Does the nature of the fault itself (intermittent loss of service) provide any clues?

Again, very grateful for any help - the support to date has been very helpful.

To me it seems likely that something in the internal wiring is causing the problem. I'm not an electrical engineer but the rise in attenuation and the drop in SNR Margin seem to be too high to be accounted for by a short length of extension cable. I haven't re-read the whole post but my first thought is to check for loose or poor connections at either end of the extension cabling.

Your noise margin at 4 dB at the extension is quite low. During the evening this figure tends to get lower and lower and may be the cause of your disconnections, especially as you seem to notice them in the early evening.

Edited by deleted (Wed 18-Apr-07 12:32:08)

Do you only have 1 extension?

With a rise like this in your ATT (there's more resistance) it looks more like poor quality cabling (what cable did you use to connect new socket to master?), poor quality sockets or bad connections between your master socket & the extension.

You said earlier that connectors 2, 3, 4 & 5 were being used, you could disconnect wires 3 and 4. This may increase your SNR a little, which may help with the disconnects, but I don't think that this would solve the rise in ATT.
As you are only on a fixed 2M service this may be OK to solve the immediate problem but if your line gets Max'd you may have to come back to solve this problem.

Agree with John - it has to be a problem with your extension cabling, that rise in attenuation and drop in SNR margin are huge.

As well as checking the actual connections as he says, have you routed it close to anything electro-magnetic? Like a radio, TV, microwave, phone charger/base station. Or parallel to an electric power cable (straight across should be ok, alongside can be disastrous).

Thanks all for the helpful replies.

I conclude from this that the problem is with my hard-wired extension. I've checked both ends of it, and the connections at the terminals seem fine. I used what I believe is the correct (highest) standard of cabling - it's basically the thickness of a mains power cable, and thicker than the cable that a detachable extension uses.

I don't think the cabling route takes it too close to any major e-m sources, and I think it is isolated from any close contact with mains cables.

I'd say that there has been a gradual degradation in the connection, to the extent that it is now almost 50%, generally at its worst in the afternoon and early evening. It usually recovers by about 9pm.

I'd be very grateful for any tips on what to try now. Should I try using a regular extension from the main socket (i.e. non hard-wired), or would an expert be likely to tidy up the problem with the hard-wired extension?

Further advice greatly appreciated.

I would try your suggestion of a longish ordinary extension cable and check the sync, attenuation, and margin figures again.

And if you live anywhere around Stockport, somewhere I have 10-20 metres of telephone extension cable. Don't think of BT, to fit an extension they charge

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it has to be a problem with your extension cabling, that rise in attenuation and drop in SNR margin are huge. As well as checking the actual connections as he says, have you routed it close to anything electro-magnetic?

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That would not bump up the attenuation.

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I used what I believe is the correct (highest) standard of cabling - it's basically the thickness of a mains power cable, and thicker than the cable that a detachable extension uses.

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So what exactly is this cable?

I don't know - I bought it as part of a kit from what looked like a very reputable source on the internet a few years back. Is there any way I can tell you what it is without actually sending you a sample?

Unfortunately I don't, but thanks for the offer.

I could connect to the master socket directly, it's not an ideal solution however. I'd rather try to sort out the extension.

A stroke of genius: it has the following printed along it! Hadn't occurred to me earlier.

SEN5E UTP Category 5e 4PR 24AWG 513-85-00202 0223M - sounds impressive!

Is this cable a single solid core, or multi-stranded. ? If you've used standed cable (burglar alarm cable, or similar), then you've done yourself no favours. ADSL is open to two problems

1. Attenuation, which is normally fixed, because cables in the house don't normally affect attenuation. The fact that yours does, points to something badly wrong.

2. Noise. ADSL uses the same frequencies as MW radio. Some wired burglar alarms can radiate signals from the alarm wiring, even when the alarm is disarmed. Extension wiring can act as an aerial for these unwanted signals. The best method for keeping noise levels low is to keep un-filtered wiring as short as possible. If necessary, connect the ADSL modem directly to a filtered master faceplate, and run Cat5 ethernet back to the PC('s).

Edited by deleted (Thu 19-Apr-07 10:45:05)

Thanks for your post.

I'm not sure I fully understand the question - the cable appears to be multi-stranded, i.e. there are a number of smaller, different coloured wires inside it. When I bought it (a few years back), it was sold as a kit specifically to enable a telephone extension to be used for broadband. The seller seemed very genuine - the website had a lot of very useful and technical information - no guarantee of course that it was correct.

Your solution (2) seems a possibility - if I understand correctly, you're proposing that I relocate the modem next to the master socket, and then run a long Cat5 ethernet cable up to the PC. Is that right?

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UTP Category 5e

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This looks good. But I am really puzzled by your description of it being as thick as a mains cable. Now, I was thinking ringmain or lighting cable, which is too thick for Cat 5.

Secondly, when people ask if the cable is stranded, they meanis the conductor in a core stranded. If it is, irt is likely to be burglar alarm cable, which is the downfall of many an ADSl installation.

Just on a hunch, try your telephone on the extension [if it's not too far to take it] and report back whether it works. If it doesn't, then report back also the wiring colurs on the terminals in the back of the socket.

Maybe I exaggerated the thickness slightly, but defintely thicker than regular extension cable.

I still don't really know how to tell if the cable is stranded - if it's important, perhaps you could let me know how I can determine this.

I can't immediately try a phone on the extension, as the socket is a vertical rather than horizontal one (sorry, don't know correct terms), and I don't have an adpater handy. Now that I think of it, I seem to remember opting for an installation kit that would be dedictaed ADSL, and not be wired for telephone use. Or something like that. Does that give any clues? The wiring colours are blue and white/blue, which are connected to the top right hand terminal and the one beneath it, both numbered "1".

I may have resolved the problem another way, as I have just discovered a second master terminal, which must have been used for a second line in to the property at some stage. Had assumed it was a redundant extension, but it turns out that it's a master socket and much closer to the PC. If I can switch my number from existing socket to this one, I could be laughing What are the odds it won't be that easy...?

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I still don't really know how to tell if the cable is stranded - if it's important, perhaps you could let me know how I can determine this.

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It is not whether the cable is stranded [to avoid earlier confusion about the cable appears to be multi-stranded, i.e. there are a number of smaller, different coloured wires inside it ] It is whether the conductor within 1 wire is stranded or solid. To establish this, it is normal to strip a small piece of insulation and look.

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I can't immediately try a phone on the extension, as the socket is a vertical rather than horizontal one (sorry, don't know correct terms), and I don't have an adpater handy. Now that I think of it, I seem to remember opting for an installation kit that would be dedictaed ADSL, and not be wired for telephone use. Or something like that. Does that give any clues?

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Yes. You've wired it wrong and got 30dB more attenuation and 27dB less noise margin. Report back how it should be wired and how you have wired it.

Or more likely to be successful, get a secondary BT socket, wire that as your extension faceplate and try with a dangly filter and report back the attenuation and noise margin

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The wiring colours are blue and white/blue, which are connected to the top right hand terminal and the one beneath it, both numbered "1".

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Do you mean blue/white and white/blue?

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I may have resolved the problem another way, as I have just discovered a second master terminal, which must have been used for a second line in to the property at some stage. Had assumed it was a redundant extension, but it turns out that it's a master socket and much closer to the PC. If I can switch my number from existing socket to this one, I could be laughing What are the odds it won't be that easy...?

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No. You would have to move your PC again. Seriously, it's a lot of trouble to go to for what appears to be a simple wiring error

Thanks, this is really helpful, however I'm still struggling to understand exactly what I should do. It would be a big help if you could clarify:

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You've wired it wrong and got 30dB more attenuation and 27dB less noise margin. Report back how it should be wired and how you have wired it.

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If you say I've wired it wrong, how do you know this, and wouldn't you also therefore know how it should be wired...?

I can't confirm how it should be wired, as the original instructions are probably irretrievable now, and I've searched on the web in vain for the supplier - he may still be out there somewhere but I haven't found him yet. I plan to keep trying. However, I'm pretty certain that I would have followed the instructions correctly. As I've described, I have wired it with the blue (it is just blue as far as I can see) to the top right hand terminal, and the white/blue to the one below it. Both have the number (1) next to them, with a blue background, and then a white/blue background behind the numbers, suggesting that they are in fact correctly wired.

The cable: in addition to the blue and white/blue wires mentioned it contains, green and white/green, brown and white/brown and orange and white/orange. They are twisted together in pairs and there are no other wires inside the cable.

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Or more likely to be successful, get a secondary BT socket, wire that as your extension faceplate and try with a dangly filter and report back the attenuation and noise margin

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I'm a bit lost here, as I don't understand what this would achieve. Are you suggesting that I get a regular extension socket, and then connect this in place of where the current one is, wiring it identically, and then connect via a microfiter? I don't see how that would vary any of the existing factors?

I'm pretty certain now that the set up was decsribed as ADSL only, as in I couldn't run a telephone from the extension.

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Your solution (2) seems a possibility - if I understand correctly, you're proposing that I relocate the modem next to the master socket, and then run a long Cat5 ethernet cable up to the PC. Is that right?

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Spot on ! You can buy pre-made ethernet cables in different lengths, and many independent computer shops will make cables up to order.

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{me}: You've wired it wrong and got 30dB more attenuation and 27dB less noise margin. Report back how it should be wired and how you have wired it.
{you}: If you say I've wired it wrong, how do you know this, and wouldn't you also therefore know how it should be wired...?

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Apart from a bit of confusion about whether the cores are blue/white & white/blue or blue & white/blue, you seem to have the same pair at both ends. OK, the cable might be broken, but with 30dB more attenuation, it looks to me like what you do have is running on crosstalk. I would have no idea how it should be wired, because I don't know what connector you are using

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As I've described, I have wired it with the blue (it is just blue as far as I can see) to the top right hand terminal, and the white/blue to the one below it. Both have the number (1) next to them, with a blue background, and then a white/blue background behind the numbers, suggesting that they are in fact correctly wired.

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A reasonable but not necessarily valid assumption. There are several traps for the unwary

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The cable: in addition to the blue and white/blue wires mentioned it contains, green and white/green, brown and white/brown and orange and white/orange. They are twisted together in pairs and there are no other wires inside the cable.

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CAT 5 UTP cable, as it says, is a fair assumption.

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{me}: Or more likely to be successful, get a secondary BT socket, wire that as your extension faceplate and try with a dangly filter and report back the attenuation and noise margin
{you}: I'm a bit lost here, as I don't understand what this would achieve. Are you suggesting that I get a regular extension socket, and then connect this in place of where the current one is, wiring it identically, and then connect via a microfiter? I don't see how that would vary any of the existing factors?

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It overcomes the fact that you have lost the instructions and that neither of us know what connector you are using. It gives us a connection which is known rather than one which is unknown. It removes the uncertainty of how you connect it, and it will allow you to plug in a phone and hear dial tone if it is wired correctly, or not if the cable is broken.

OK - I'll give it a try and let you know how it goes.