WiFi Internet Access in Nursing Home

My Mother has recently had to go into residential care. The home we chose claimed wi-fi throughout - great for Skype and BBC Listen Again / IPlayer etc. But..

The room is, I think, in its own dead spot. I get the "4 or 5 bars", but with a yellow triangle superimposed and the message "No Internet Access". Moving to a different part of the building (sometimes) solves the problem.

The home is part of a group and there is no IT support on-site

Using the Xirrus Wi-fi Monitor reveals that for the home there is a single SSID that has 4 BSSIDs (all WPA/PSK, TKIP) associated with it.

Cisco Linksys:nn:nn:nn 802.11g Channel 10
Cisco Linksys:nn:nn:nn 802.11g Channel 2
Cisco Linksys:nn:nn:nn 802.11g Channel 9
Draytek:nn:nn:nn 802.11n Channel 6,2

(nn:nn:nn is different for each line above)

Windows 7 Home Premium (by default) only offers the first of these (with a RSSI of -66dBm)

Any suggestions as to what I might do before I start pestering head office or buying extra kit? Please keep any suggestions relatively jargon free - just because I quote stuff (and have got wi-fi working at home) above does not necessarily mean I understand it - I just expect that it might be useful to others! In particular I do not really understand the difference between repeaters, extenders etc.

I am told that the router is in the telephone switch cupboard and is not accessible - so hard wiring is not possible.

TIA
David

I would suggest, in the first instance, you run an "ipconfig /all" on the laptop and determine whether it's picking up an IP address and DNS settings etc.

If it is connecting and you have a couple of bars, it would suggest the signal strength is OK - it could be a case of the wireless access point in there is misconfigured etc.

Connected but no internet access generally means they is a login / terms and condition page where you need to sign in.
When it is connected to the wireless open a webpage to anywhere, and it should redirect to a landing page.

If all that fails I'd suggest buying mum a MiFi dongle assuming 3G coverage, and this should give her private internet access.

It may be worth asking the home if you can connect a homeplug to their router and then put the second in your Mother's room. This would give her a better connection for things like skype and Iplayer.

If the internet is vital to her life (it would be to mine) then you could also have a phone line installed in her room and have it activated for broadband.

In reply to a post by dsf58:

>> Moving to a different part of the building (sometimes) solves the problem. <<

Thanks for the thoughts to date. However the fact that I can get a connection (with Skype, Internet browsing AV update etc. - even iPlayer) if I move to another part of the building would imply that it is not a log-in problem - but something to do with the strength of the signal (?) - although I am confused by getting 4 or 5 bars - which to me implies that I am getting a connection through to the router, but the yellow triangle implies no internet connection?

The Windows trouble-shooter option ends up telling me to reboot the router - to which I do not have access (and which I suspect is like the old PC support default advice to "switch of and then back on again" - i.e. they don't know!).

I will check the ipconfig /all option when I next visit.

In the end I could see if the home would let me put in a dedicated line - but that is additional expense and the home advertises wi-fi throughout - before doing that I want to rattle their cage. But I want to make sure first that there is not a configuration tweak on my mother's laptop (selecting a channel?) that will solve the problem. I would also like to be able to push them towards a solution that is likely to work.

David

Can't they move your mum to a room where wifi works. If they claim wifi throughout and use it to tout for business the nursing home really ought to be sorting this.

How big is the place, if more than the usual 2 or 3 bedroom place, then there is probably multiple access points, and just one has fell over, i.e. switch it off and back on to reboot it

Have seen this in hotels, and a quick reboot has helped, do ask in most places first.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

How big is the place, if more than the usual 2 or 3 bedroom place, then there is probably multiple access points, and just one has fell over, i.e. switch it off and back on to reboot it

Have seen this in hotels, and a quick reboot has helped, do ask in most places first.

Thanks

(c. 70 Beds in a modern building over three floors with wide straight corridors. BTW in a very dead area for good TV reception - no channel 5 or freeview (yet) - and variable mobile phone reception! Which limits ultimate alternatives.)

Well I was wondering along these lines (multiple APs - although I have been told "the kit" is in the telphone cupboard, which is three breeze block and one partition wall away on the same floor) - hence the details of the Xirrus WiFi Monitor output in the OP. Although the ones I detect are I guess (by definition) working! (I add the RSSI (dBm) to the quote below)

Cisco Linksys:nn:nn:nn 802.11g Channel 10 -66dBm
Cisco Linksys:nn:nn:nn 802.11g Channel 2 -72dBm
Cisco Linksys:nn:nn:nn 802.11g Channel 9 -77dBm
Draytek:nn:nn:nn 802.11n Channel 6,2 -72dBm

Presumably the above implies multiple access points?

When there are multiple access points for a single SSID, is it possible (in Win 7 Home Premium) to specify which channel you want to use for connection? I am wondering if the channel that connects by default might be "too buzy" - possibly have a fire alarm system on it or something (or another resident permanently streaming video!)

Asking them to reboot the router/what-ever is however something to "put on the list".

thanks again
David

In reply to a post by john2007:

Can't they move your mum to a room where wifi works. If they claim wifi throughout and use it to tout for business the nursing home really ought to be sorting this.

Possibly, but the room is otherwise ideal with a good view over open countryside (rather than onto a steep bank or the local ugly PFI hospital) and is close to the dining room etc. (I chose it!)

The delivery of advertised service is the lever that I will use, but when your Mother is in the home you don't want to get a reputation for being an awkward *** (it could impact on their attitude to my mother), hence I would like to apply "helpful pressure" with some suggestions for improving the situation. If it sounds as if I have "some clue" it is also less likely that I will get fobbed off.

David

Download INSSIDER from http://www.metageek.net/support/downloads/
on to a laptop

This program will show Signal strength, Channel number, and Router Name ( The SSID) available in a location

Take the laptop near to the router in the cuboard - the resulting increase in signal strength will identifiy the router name.

Return to your mums room and use inssider to find the strongest /best spot to locate her computer. With a bit of luck this may be all you need to do,

(Round my house the signal strength can vary by a factor of 4)

If all this fails ask the home to move the router away from the phone box to a seperate cuboard - if not ask them to move the router nearer the front of the cuboard (and away from the phone lines which will at the back of the cuboard)

It is of course possible that your mums room is at the edge of the building and is picking up a neighbours signal on the same channel. Inssiders display will then show two signals on the same channel which are of equal strength.

Hope this helps

Cisco Linksys:nn:nn:nn 802.11g Channel 10 -66dBm
Cisco Linksys:nn:nn:nn 802.11g Channel 2 -72dBm
Cisco Linksys:nn:nn:nn 802.11g Channel 9 -77dBm
Draytek:nn:nn:nn 802.11n Channel 6,2 -72dBm

what a mess. Channels 9 and 10 bleed all over each other and then there's the dreaded N router splattering over multiple channels.

They yellow triangle probably means it hasn't got an IP address which isn't a signal strength issue despite the above.

( To add to my previous post - sorry )

INSSIDER will also show the "Security Key" This is the security key type the home may use. There are several different types in use,

If a key is in use then you need to know its type and the actual value to use. You need to set up your mums computer wireless signal to use the same type and value. The home should have a note of the value used by the router though they may not realise it's importance.

These days security keys are widely used to stop a neighbour piggy-backing on your own internet connection (or the homes)

Hope this helps

Doesn't sound like a very professional install does it, especially as the OP says considering it is promoted as a "value-added" part of the package.
Given the names I think they are standalone APs too, which would be missing a trick when they can get a pack of 3 managed APs for £200 (total).

Makes me wonder what else is wrong with the setup.

Xirrus (which I already had on my mother's m/c and looks very similar functionally to INSSIDER) shows (for all BSSIDs:
Authentication: WPA/PSK
Encryption: TKIP
The "Key" which I put in when I originally got the laptop for Mum is not over-sophisticated (and may - possibly - be being broken by neighbours who are piggy-backing on the system) - nothing like the long-string auto-generated by my home set-up.

The fact that I sometimes "get" a connection (depending partly on the position in the building) would indicate that I have the correct Key? Since the SSID is a constant across all access points (i.e. it is a Single "network"?), would the Key be the same for all? If not how do you distinguish when setting up in Windows - which asks for a Network Name and a Key?

I always get 4/5 bars which I thought (per Windows 7 Network and Sharing Center) indicated that I had a wi-fi connection (i.e. laptop to access point), but the yellow triangle indicated no connection from the access point to the ISP.

David

In reply to a post by dsf58:

Since the SSID is a constant across all access points (i.e. it is a Single "network"?), would the Key be the same for all? If not how do you distinguish when setting up in Windows - which asks for a Network Name and a Key?
{snip}
but the yellow triangle indicated no connection from the access point to the ISP.

If the network name (SSID) is the same on all APs then yes the password needs to be the same too, and I believe the type of encryption should match also.

However standalone APs won't have forced whoever set it up to check they all matched so it's entirely possible they made a typo somewhere (or set one to WEP by mistake) meaning you would fail to connect to that AP and the laptop would try another AP.

I have never tried but assume most standard Wi-Fi software only supports one password at a time for any given SSID (though other add-on software may have different "profiles" you can activate).

The yellow triangle usually has a hint/tooltip that says limited or no connectivity,
This is MS way of saying either:

a) your laptop has a self-assigned (link-local) IP 169.254.x.y, where you have joined the access point but not received an IP
For example if the LAN connection from the access point to the router is broken

link-local IPs are perfectly valid for computers to talk to each other on the same local network (including connecting 2 computers together directly) but by definition are not routed to the internet.

b) your laptop has been assigned an IP address but not a default gateway address OR the gateway is assigned but Windows can't reach the internet through that gateway

If the service normally presents a splash page with T+Cs to click through before you go online, this is called a captive portal and newer versions of Windows will detect this when you join the network.
You are prompted with a "Additional login information may be required" popup which opens a browser. Network and Sharing Center will show no internet connection until you click through a captive portal.

---

Thing is we are all guessing here as the installers are the people with the answer, and is a bugbear of venues who have no tech person on site. Bottom line is they should not think it is ok to fob you off just because of their client group. You're not asking for special consideration just for something they advertise as all part of the service to work properly.

If it was done by a company there will be a document somewhere describing the install including placement of kit but with a nursing home they may not even have that on site if paperwork went through a head office.

Edited by prlzx (Wed 07-Mar-12 23:26:30)

Actually having spent a few minutes this afternoon with Xirrus getting and losing connections, I am even less sure what is going on.

In my mother's room (5 bars, yellow triangle): 3 Access points showing:
Cisco-Linksys:nn:nn:B0 ch 10 802.11g 2457MHz -70dBm (Transmit/Receive at 24Mbits/sec)
Draytek:nn:nn:88 ch 6,2 802.11n 2437,2417MHz -72dBm
Cisco-Linksys:nn:nn:C8 ch 9 802.11g 2452MHz -73dBM

In the dining room - across the corridor (5 bars - fullconnection): 3 Access points showing:
Cisco-Linksys:nn:nn:E8 ch 2 802.11g 2417MHz -66dBm (Transmit/Receive at 24Mbits/sec)
Cisco-Linksys:nn:nn:B0 ch 10 802.11g 2457MHz -73dBm
Draytek:nn:nn:88 ch 6,2 802.11n 2437,2417MHz -73dBm

In the Lounge - far end of building (5 bars - fullconnection): 3 Access points showing:
Cisco-Linksys:nn:nn:F8 ch 1 802.11g 2412MHz -52dBm (Transmit/Receive at 36Mbits/sec)
Cisco-Linksys:nn:nn:70 ch 5 802.11g 2432MHz -70dBm
Cisco-Linksys:nn:nn:E0 ch 8 802.11g 2447MHz -74dBm

Which if I understand correctly (each physical bit of kit should have a constant BSSID and Channel), means there are a considerable number of access points. If this is a messy installation what should be done to tidy it up - I get the impression from the previous posts that channels can overlap.

David

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

I would suggest, in the first instance, you run an "ipconfig /all" on the laptop and determine whether it's picking up an IP address and DNS settings etc.

If it is connecting and you have a couple of bars, it would suggest the signal strength is OK - it could be a case of the wireless access point in there is misconfigured etc.

I did this today - with the following results (I have redacted some data in case I am disclosing soemthing I should not be!) I freely confess to not understanding much of this - but it is very similar to the configuration of my home setup.

Windows IP Configuration

Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : TOSXXXXX
Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Mixed
IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No

Wireless LAN adapter Wireless Network Connection:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Realtek RTL8188CE Wireless LAN 802.11n PCI-E NIC
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : XX-XX-XX-XX-XX-XX
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
Link-local IPv6 Address . . . . . : nnnn::nnnn:nnnn:nnnn:nnnn%14(Preferred)
IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : nnn.nnn.nnn.14(Preferred)
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : 07 March 2012 16:00:55
Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : 10 March 2012 16:00:54
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.101.200
DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.101.200
DHCPv6 IAID . . . . . . . . . . . : nnnnnnnnn
DHCPv6 Client DUID. . . . . . . . : nn-nn-nn-nn-nn-nn-nn-nn-nn-nn-nn-nn-nn-nn
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.101.200
NetBIOS over Tcpip. . . . . . . . : Enabled

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Realtek PCIe FE Family Controller
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : nn-nn-nn-nn-nn-nn
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

Tunnel adapter isatap.{nnnnnnnn-nnnn-nnnn-nnnn-nnnnnnnnnnnn}:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Microsoft ISATAP Adapter
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-00-00-00-00-00-00-E0
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

Tunnel adapter Local Area Connection* 12:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-00-00-00-00-00-00-E0
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

Tunnel adapter isatap.{nnnnnnnn-nnnn-nnnn-nnnn-nnnnnnnnnnnn}:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Microsoft ISATAP Adapter #2
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-00-00-00-00-00-00-E0
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

Tunnel adapter Local Area Connection* 11:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Microsoft 6to4 Adapter
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-00-00-00-00-00-00-E0
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

David

Confirms that the installer(s) were not competent in understanding channel planning.
Professional kit left to chose its own channel can still chose the best of 3 or 4 standard channels.

What you describe sounds very hit and miss.

I would not worry to much about counting the BSSIDs or MAC addresses, as one piece of kit can present as several virtual APs or contain multiple radios depending on cost.

Consider whether you should even be taking this on as you are (or represent) the "customer" (not quite the right word I know) and it's not for you to fix their problem. However given that you want be offer "constructive" advice have you spoken to other residents / families to see if they have a similar experience, so that you can relay that it is not an isolated problem but a symptom of a poor setup?

Would you feel confident about tidying up this system if they gave you temporary access to the admin side? If not, you or they would need to get someone in who has experience because it is not something that can be done properly solely from forum advice.

In reply to a post by dsf58:

I did this today - with the following results (I have redacted some data in case I am disclosing soemthing I should not be!) I freely confess to not understanding much of this - but it is very similar to the configuration of my home setup.

Windows IP Configuration

Wireless LAN adapter Wireless Network Connection:

DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
Link-local IPv6 Address . . . . . : nnnn::nnnn:nnnn:nnnn:nnnn%14(Preferred)
IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : nnn.nnn.nnn.14(Preferred)
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : 07 March 2012 16:00:55
Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : 10 March 2012 16:00:54
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.101.200
DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.101.200
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.101.200

David

I have trimmed the above to the relevant info and from this the IPv4 address is by definition 192.168.101.14 - you need not worry about posting addresses starting
192.168.*
172.16-31.*
10.*

as these are all local private IPs which are neither unique nor routable from the internet nor of a sensitive nature.
They are designed to be reused across different organisations to number their internal networks (if their routers use NAT) to avoid needing to have unique public IPs per computer.

If you receive this configuration and are still not online, it suggests the gateway (router) at 192.168.101.200 has a problem with its internet connection.

If you can reach a website by IP address (e.e. http://173.194.34.120/ = Google) but not by name, their DNS setup is broken.

Their IP range (about 250 devices) is small for the size of venue you describe though that is why the leases are only 3 days (the laptop will start trying to renew as soon as 36 hours after joining).

If you connect to different APs and get a different 3rd number instead of 101 they are using multiple ranges. This will be slightly confusing for devices which roam from one AP to another (The laptop would have to ask to keep it's current IP, be told it is not valid then request a new one).

If the IP ranges are different they should use different SSIDs. In their setup I would have setup something bigger like a 172.x.

Thanks - brief points in response:

Xirrus is reporting all access points as WPA/PSK

The yellow triangle has a tooltip "No internet Connection" (or similar)

There is no splash-screen or log-in prompts (after originally entering the Network name and Key a few months ago). When I get a connection I find that browsing gives me the pages requested and Norton starts updating! (Similar to when I get home with my laptop after being away)

I have posted the ipconfig output further up the thread.

Thing is we are all guessing here as the installers are the people with the answer, and is a bugbear of venues who have no tech person on site. Bottom line is they should not think it is ok to fob you off just because of their client group. You're not asking for special consideration just for something they advertise as all part of the service to work properly.

If it was done by a company there will be a document somewhere describing the install including placement of kit but with a nursing home they may not even have that on site if paperwork went through a head office.

Agreed

I think the staff at the home (who are nurses/carers/domestics etc. but no IT) have been "educated by experience" that broadband and wifi is "problematic" therefore are inclined to thin that possibly I am being over-demanding. (I know I am not, my home is a similar distance from the exchange and I get a reliable 6-7M connection and once I was not asking the wi-fi to operate diagonally through a very thick stone wall, the wi-fI is reliable and can keep up) I have recently created a fuss about a potentially major issue and don't want a reputation as a trouble maker as it could reflect on my mother's treatment, so I would like to persuade them to put me in contact with their IT specialist (if any) at HO and then have a useful conversation with him/her.

1) Is it a matter of rebooting something,
2) Is it a matter of reconfiguring what they already have
3) Might putting in yet another access point solve the problem
4) Or is it a matter of getting some sort of extender/repeater - if so what

I am not yet entirely sure of the terminology

Thanks again
David

In reply to a post by dsf58:

1) Is it a matter of rebooting something,
2) Is it a matter of reconfiguring what they already have
3) Might putting in yet another access point solve the problem
4) Or is it a matter of getting some sort of extender/repeater - if so what

Thing is, even with the details you have discovered, or anything further you could try without administrative access, it may not be possible to determine the cause yourself.

(1) No way to know. You could reboot something at random and it works - for a while - but any problem is not fixed
(2) The channels do need sorting out; it's not that anything will explode or stop working completely, but creating interference noise between their own APs is unnecessary and will be worse the more devices try to use the network.

The IP address range of approx 250 sounds like plenty at first but:
if residents have their own phones (or other networkable device inc laptop or TV)
and staff can use the same network
and each AP is using up an IP address

... it is conceivable that with a 3 day lease if there were enough visitors over a weekend they could run out. If any neighbours have guessed the key this is more significant.

Lots of ifs there but the point is good planning could easily avoid any risk whatsoever by using a larger IP range. They are just numbers so there is no extra cost in an IP range having say 1000 or 4000 usable IPs. You don't need to suggest a particular numbering to mention this aspect.

(3) Another AP in the weak area would work but is likely to require more cabling, for which labour can be expensive for a single run (it's normally done as a bulk job) could even cost more than the extra hardware. If running cable they could just as easily run to a new network socket in the room but are unlikely to single out one room for this.

So if suggesting another AP find a spot that could help more people.

Signal strength is a relative concept depending on background noise from overlapping channels and non Wi-Fi gear in the band (microwaves etc). As a guide you might need -70dBm or better (less negative) before your throughput picks up, but if you have something that reports a Noise Floor value you are looking for signal 15 to 20 dBm above that for starters.

Gvien the above each channel can have a different noise floor across the band, so some APs will feel like they have a better range.

Another AP will create more interference unless the channels are tidied up, You would get online but your experience could be intermittent or with random slowdowns.

(4) An extender or repeater is really only appropriate in a network you operate as it may act as another AP (at least part of the time). You would also need to know the location and capabilities (exact model) of the AP you were linking to. An extender / repeater is intended to be placed where the signal is still strong enough, such as midway between source and where you want to place a laptop.

Edited by prlzx (Thu 08-Mar-12 00:56:49)

In reply to a post by prlzx:

If you can reach a website by IP address (e.e. http://173.194.34.120/ = Google) but not by name, their DNS setup is broken.

No (I cannot reach Google by IP address) - so that narrows the field a bit!

Thanks

In reply to a post by prlzx:

>><<
Consider whether you should even be taking this on as you are (or represent) the "customer" (not quite the right word I know) and it's not for you to fix their problem. However given that you want be offer "constructive" advice have you spoken to other residents / families to see if they have a similar experience, so that you can relay that it is not an isolated problem but a symptom of a poor setup?

Would you feel confident about tidying up this system if they gave you temporary access to the admin side? If not, you or they would need to get someone in who has experience because it is not something that can be done properly solely from forum advice.

The problem is not isolated - but not many residents use IT - possibly because they think it is something tha "they can't work". (I think more staff members struggle with it!)

I think gaining admin access is unwise - I may have set up a few home networks, but the last commercial network I set up involved NETBEUI , IEEE 802.5 and MAUs! If anything goes wrong I know who gets blamed! So I will limit interventions to hard reboots!

I think though I have a meeting set up for next week.

Thanks to all
David

Thanks, some useful thoughts

David

Ah, lovely token ring.

Update:

Had a meeting with the MD of the Nursing Home Company (regarding a different issue) and he had bothered to check whether I had any other issues or problems so he asked what the problem was with wifi. This resulted in a guarantee to get it fixed - and two days later: (touch wood) my mother now has a reasonable link.

I need to test speed etc this week-end but hopefully problem solved.

Now to consider the best way to set up outgoing email!

David

Excellent

In reply to a post by dsf58:

Now to consider the best way to set up outgoing email!

If she does not have an acount somewhere already, I think gmail, with Imapped software on the PC is a fairly good choice.

Additional that if the email provider specifies SMTP as part of the client settings, look for a section on authentication with TLS (or SSL). Those settings will be on different port numbers from 25 / 143.

E.g GMail Yahoo

Edited by prlzx (Wed 21-Mar-12 04:59:52)

In reply to a post by philippercival:

Excellent

In reply to a post by dsf58:

Now to consider the best way to set up outgoing email!

If she does not have an acount somewhere already, I think gmail, with Imapped software on the PC is a fairly good choice.

ill second that i use gmail with windows live mail(imap settings) both free makes a good combo.

Ash