Wi-Fi between 2 outdoor buildings

Hi,

I'm looking to get a wi-fi link between the main house and an out building about 50 metres away.

Regular wi-fi routers aren't strong enough and homeplugs are unable to connect as the two buildings have two separate feeds.

Therefore, I'm thinking a 'line-of-sight' connection?

Has anyone done this before and can anyone recommend products to use? The only complication is there's a conifer hedge between the two buildings aswell, so have that to contend with.

Therefore, open to recommendations?

Thanks.

Edited to add - Ethernet cable isn't an option due to various obstacles.

Edited by WannabeMKII (Sun 06-Jan-13 19:28:03)

How about a 50 metre ethernet cable?

Lease a single transponder on a satellite ... and bounce your signal through that!

Or use external Cat5e/Cat6 - £25 for the cable, £10 for RJ45 sockets at each end, plug in a hub at the remote end and you will have Gbit connectivity and a WAP.

Have just installed similar here ...

Lease a single transponder on a satellite? Sorry, what does that mean?

Just responded to the other post, that cable isn't an option unfortunately.

In reply to a post by WannabeMKII:

Lease a single transponder on a satellite? Sorry, what does that mean?

MHC is being just a little facetious.

In reply to a post by micksharpe:

In reply to a post by WannabeMKII:

Lease a single transponder on a satellite? Sorry, what does that mean?

MHC is being just a little facetious.

Useful person to have around on a forum then...?

In reply to a post by WannabeMKII:

Lease a single transponder on a satellite? Sorry, what does that mean?

A lot of money!


If you cannot use a wired connection you are stuck as getting WiFi to work reliably over 50metres with a conifer hedge in the way with be difficult unless you can get a pair of repeater in the hedge which will require power and that will need cable. Even a directional high gain antenna is unlikely to provide a reliable link.

In reply to a post by micksharpe:

In reply to a post by WannabeMKII:

Lease a single transponder on a satellite? Sorry, what does that mean?

MHC is being just a little facetious.

Why?

I have just put one in to link a couple of buildings ...

In reply to a post by WannabeMKII:

In reply to a post by micksharpe:

In reply to a post by WannabeMKII:

Lease a single transponder on a satellite? Sorry, what does that mean?

MHC is being just a little facetious.

Useful person to have around on a forum then...?

MHC is a good lad, really, and very knowledgeable.

your own personal buildings or for a business?

Is latency still an issue with these links or have improvements been made?

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by micksharpe:

In reply to a post by WannabeMKII:

Lease a single transponder on a satellite? Sorry, what does that mean?

MHC is being just a little facetious.

Why?

I have just put one in to link a couple of buildings ...

And the price was...

I've just been looking at this and the offerings from Solwise here.

Solwise do some 'cheaper' options, but then the first link has everything to get it up and running, which I like.

But is the hedge going to cause that much of an issue?

Both! Primarily business but I can use it for personal when I am there.

Minor improvements in latency by minimising switching times on the ground but there is not much which can be done.

In reply to a post by micksharpe:

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by micksharpe:

... nested quotes trimmed ...

MHC is being just a little facetious.

Why?

I have just put one in to link a couple of buildings ...

And the price was...

Cannot say exactly but it is in the order of $NN0,000 / month!

How tall, how wide, how dense, single double row ... The confiers contain a lot of water and oils throughout ... water responds quite nicely to 2.45 GHz and will absorb the radiation ... so it is unlikely to get through.

Well, the hedge will get in the way of line-of-sight unless you can go over it. What sort of obstacles are in the way of the far-better cable option?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Well, the hedge will get in the way of line-of-sight unless you can go over it.

I think I'm going to have to go over the hedge, or cut a hole in it

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

What sort of obstacles are in the way of the far-better cable option?

Solid concrete path, lawn, hedge, gravel over concrete base that carries cars and horses. We've decided cable isn't a suitable option and would cost too much disruption.

There are choices there - but you will need to get way above the "hedge" by at least 1meter for 1 years' growth of if it is never cut, several metres. The last one I looked at had conifers almost 20metres high and still growing that would have required some quite meaty masts - they have to remain stable in all weathers and access to them will not be easy or cheap.

The 5GHz will work - but it is not cheap ...

In reply to a post by MHC:

There are choices there - but you will need to get way above the "hedge" by at least 1meter for 1 years' growth of if it is never cut, several metres. The last one I looked at had conifers almost 20metres high and still growing that would have required some quite meaty masts - they have to remain stable in all weathers and access to them will not be easy or cheap.

It does seem that going over is going to be the only option. I'm going to need to get back on site to check out the options, as I didn't really take note.

In reply to a post by MHC:

The 5GHz will work - but it is not cheap ...

I thought 2.4GHz travelled through obstacles better as it's a wider frequency than 5GHz?

In reply to a post by MHC:

How tall, how wide, how dense, single double row ... The confiers contain a lot of water and oils throughout ... water responds quite nicely to 2.45 GHz and will absorb the radiation ... so it is unlikely to get through.

I'm going to have to go back onsite and carry out a survey, as it was a last minute thing and in the dark.

Depends on what the obstacle is ...

Microwave ovens run at 2.45 GHz for a good reason - the frequency that water absorbs best!

In reply to a post by MHC:

Depends on what the obstacle is ...

Microwave ovens run at 2.45 GHz for a good reason - the frequency that water absorbs best!

Ah ha, hence trees being the enemy

Can you not use SWA (armoured) Cat5e and run it round the edges? It will be a lot cheaper and easier to do. Even burying it 2" down by the side of the path should be enough and use some extra alkathene pipe at places you are worried about. I have seen someone go straigh down the centre of their near bowling green condition lawn with a sharp spade - cut down six inches, force cable in, some sand/soil/seed in the slit tread it down and within a month there was no trace.

Some blue sky thinking:

Can you get a cable to the hedge from one end of the other? If so, fit the wireless repeater in the hedge! I know of one location where that has been done (at 5GHz) to feed four or five cottages.

What about a couple of overhead drops - house to trees, and trees to outbuilding? Even a single span can be achieved across 50m - my incoming phone line is almost that.

It's an interesting option and one I'll take another look into when returning to the property to carry out further research.

In reply to a post by MHC:

Some blue sky thinking:

That's what I like!

In reply to a post by MHC:

Can you get a cable to the hedge from one end of the other? If so, fit the wireless repeater in the hedge! I know of one location where that has been done (at 5GHz) to feed four or five cottages.

Hmm, that's another interesting option, especially if PoE is used, so a single cable run.

In reply to a post by MHC:

What about a couple of overhead drops - house to trees, and trees to outbuilding? Even a single span can be achieved across 50m - my incoming phone line is almost that.

This was a thought, as both house and outbuilding is fed from the same overhead power line post. However, running network along power lines isn't a good idea... is it?

Remember this is Ethenet not VDSL so signal levels are higher and noise rejection a lot better. A couple of feet away should be reasonable and if you went for screened Cat5e and properly earthed it there is a good chance it would work.

The only complication is that you are on a power supply pole - if a power cable breaks and drops onto the data cable, you may have a problem but telephony and power on the same poles is acceptable now. There are guidelines for it which you could search for.

Well, it's certainly another option to consider when I head back over to the site and review the options...

Thanks for the extra info!

Ubiquiti do bridging kit, that isn't wi-fi (or can be) http://www.4gon.co.uk/ubiquiti-nanostation-m5-mimo-p...

Or fit external high gain antennas to the regular router, the routers are powerful enough it's the antenae and the walls that get in the way.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

Ubiquiti do bridging kit, that isn't wi-fi (or can be) http://www.4gon.co.uk/ubiquiti-nanostation-m5-mimo-p...

Or fit external high gain antennas to the regular router, the routers are powerful enough it's the antenae and the walls that get in the way.

Thanks for the pointer. Funny, as on my shortlist of two;

Number 1

Number 2

I'm back on site tomorrow, so going to do some measuring and look at the options again, as it was dark last time (damn winter nights).

Before committing to buy anything like that you really need to try it out. The hedge is going to be the real problem and even at 5Ghz could be a major obstacle.

In reply to a post by MHC:

Before committing to buy anything like that you really need to try it out. The hedge is going to be the real problem and even at 5Ghz could be a major obstacle.

I've been back on site today, in the daylight and have a better understanding.

The hedge is a thick conifer of about 8ft to 10ft tall, so going through in not an option. There's also a number of trees in the why of the ideal route, but have found a clear line of sight route

It's not ideal, as it's going to have to run off a homeplug (I always prefer to run from the source if possible), but there's a clear line of sight covering a distance of about 25m.

So should all run without a problem

If you have line of sight the Ubiquiti kit will work well. At such a close distance you may get NLOS even in 5GHz if the signal has some indirect surfaces to bounce off. Here are some tips though:

• 25m separation is almost too close for a bridge link.
• So you'll need the power level on both sides at a minimum (some of this equipment will go down to 0dB or even lower).
• When setting up each side indoors and checking they link, both physically separate the units in the room and face them away from each other. This helps ensure the link does not run too hot.
• Make sure you set the link up as WPA2-AES (and usually PSK) as other encryption modes aren't accelerated by the chipset. You can get some nice long 63-alpha-numeric random keys from here
• Try to avoid using the homeplug unless you absolutely can't run a cable to this network point - if the homeplug network can't sustain 90+Mbit that may limit your LAN speeds
• Download the latest stable firmware from the UBNT website (there can be several updates while items are in the supply chain!)
• The equipment can be installed outdoors, or on the inside of windows or even thin walls (e.g. wood). But if you have energy efficient glass (coated stuff) you may get stronger signals through walls than the glass! (
• Bridge links are established by setting up the side nearest the internet as wireless mode Access Point and other side(s) as wireless mode Station with both sides set as transparent (WDS) and network mode as bridge - this ensures the link is transparent at layer 2 including DHCP and broadcast traffic generally
• All devices come with initially supplied the same default IP but it is ok to have them request IPs from your existing network (usually your router) - you can still set a unique fallback IP (static) on each end
• The link can optionally use a proprietary TDMA protocol (AirMax). But normal client devices (those laptops or tablets with 5GHz) can also connect to the AP if you turn AirMax off

Edited by prlzx (Wed 09-Jan-13 01:00:51)

How about something completely different, use a mobile data connection and if necessary create a VPN to connect back to your local network?

In reply to a post by Herstmonceux:

How about something completely different, use a mobile data connection and if necessary create a VPN to connect back to your local network?

Thanks for the suggestion, but unfortunately, mobile data coverage is even worse. What compounds the issue is that's a micro brewery, so extremely well insulated with foil backed insulation material, out in the middle of nowhere and lucky to even get 4MB broadband

For a lifetime supply of beer I might consider coming down and doing it for you!

Seriously though, if the hedge is only as tall as you say, and will be kept in check then a point to point 5Ghz system should work. Mount them on decent aerial poles with Ethernet feeds - you may need to power limit but once you sort out the set up, it will run itself.

In reply to a post by MHC:

For a lifetime supply of beer I might consider coming down and doing it for you!

Lol, and don't tell me, you're an alcoholic 20 year old who can only drink Dom Perignon

In reply to a post by MHC:

Seriously though, if the hedge is only as tall as you say, and will be kept in check then a point to point 5Ghz system should work. Mount them on decent aerial poles with Ethernet feeds - you may need to power limit but once you sort out the set up, it will run itself.

Hopefully, it once up and running, it should be OK. Just need to inform them of the cost More expensive that a 'home' wireless box, but better than nothing at all.