Why can't my Mac and Windows PC see each other?

This is the scenario. I've recently set up a home network - using the Ethernet hub built into my router. The network is wired Ethernet, and at present I've got three things on it - a Mac, a Windows XP machine and a printer. The printer is directly on the network, and the idea is for it to be used by both the Mac and the Windows machine. All three devices have been assigned fixed LAN IP addresses.

I've dealt with the DNS side of things and have turned off DHCP in the router. Having configured them, both machines can access the Internet, and both machines can print to the printer. But at present the Mac can't see the Windows machine, and vice versa, even though I've assigned each machine a name and have told each machine the name of the Workgroup.

So, why can't they see each other? Any ideas?

One of the reasonably-frequent things I wish to do is to transfer large numbers of picture files from the Windows machine to the Mac. So, can I actually do this, dragging the files directly over, or do I have to set up an intermediary folder and put all the files in there first?

It's not as if I've set out to actually share all types of files, only JPGs, TIFs and the like, which are universally recognised. Indeed, sharing ALL files wouldn't be feasible in both directions anyway, due to the different filesystems that these computers use.

In order for the "dog to see the rabbit", as it were, am I forced to envoke file sharing per se?

Can the mac access the PC via IP address and vice versa? Have you shared the folders you want sharing?

This will rule out the "workgroup" settings somewhat......

If this is an old aged installation of Windows XP anything is possible, many programs can goose up windows file and print sharing on XP.

Is the subnet mask set correctly? I presume it is but as you say you have disabled DHCP (why?) then I need to ask it..

Edited by Pipexer (Sun 20-Apr-14 15:43:52)

I've obviously not been clear enough. I don't want to SHARE files per se, I just want to occasionally copy some picture files, made on the WinXP machine, across to the Mac.

An arguably simpler way of doing this would be to transfer the files on to a USB memory stick and then just plug the USB stick into the Mac. However, some of the files are very big and the totals would mean having to use the memory stick several times over each time. So, clearly the more elegant means of copying them across would be to use the network.

Getting Windows XP and Mac OS-X computers to "see" files on the other operating system is often a horrible process as you have discovered. Much of the difficulty lies in the fact that Windows and Mac OS-X often don't recognise the computer names (Netbios) assigned by the other operating system. In addition, Mac OS-X doesn't work well with Windows workgroups. It is ok with full domain names but it is likely to be too much effort to go down that route.

From personal experience, I find that the easiest solution by far is to install a Network Attached Storage (NAS) device to your network that can be seen by both computers using native Apple & Windows protocols - in the same way that your printer is "seen" by both operating systems. You ought to do that anyway as a backup arrangement.

If you want to try further to establish a direct link, I would suggest that you get hold of Apple's Bonjour program which can be run on Windows XP and will locate computers on your network. In fact switching off DHCP on your hub/router may not be a good idea unless you are absolutely that you are assigning compatible static IP addresses. On OS-X you will need to go into the Network > Advanced > WINS tab for your network adapter to set the Netbios and workgroup details correctly. Even after all of this you are likely to find that establishing a link is an erratic process.

In reply to a post by meditator:

I don't want to SHARE files per se, I just want to occasionally copy some picture files, made on the WinXP machine, across to the Mac.

That is file sharing per se, in that you need to share the directories from and to which you want to copy.

So enable file sharing on both and either share some existing directories or create transfer directories on each for the copying.

Yes, and you can't do that without setting up folder sharing in Windows.

Anyway that's besides the point, please try the steps I mentioned first. This could be quite drawn out if you don't really know what you want to achieve or even what you're looking for, but relying on Windows XP Workgroups is not advisable, it could be broken for any number of reasons.

I'm new to this particular aspect of home networking. Having read the various replies here, I've had a long think about it all and concluded - surprise, surprise - that I won't be able to do what I want without involving file/folder sharing. But it's the method for getting the sharing that's the tricky part. I think once I've cracked that, each computer will be able to see the other. There may be one or more security issues involved in this, though.

Meanwhile, I've found an article describing how to do this sort of sharing, albeit that it was written about four years ago and is nowhere near as straightforward as I was hoping. It appears that there are one or two different ways of getting the shared status, depending on exactly what you ultimately want to do. And you can set it up from either the Mac or the Windows PC.

What's concerned me, though, has been that, regardless of the method, what will happen is that, on the XP machine 'File & Printer Sharing' will get turned on. Now, I do vaguely recall that some years ago F&PS was globally regarded as a security risk; it could succumb, apparently, to probing or hacking from the Internet. I've therefore always had that turned off in the Properties of the Network Connection. Whether or not that vulnerability has since been stemmed by other features of Microsoft Networks (or specifically by an XP update) I've no idea, but in my mind it represents a bit of a concern. Incidentally, my XP has always been kept bang up to date and has been stable for several years. Being still a popular OS, I'd imagine that many of its users around the world will have used it in this or similar networking situations. However, I still have that nagging doubt about the F&PS vulnerability. Does it still exist?

I've actually now done a dummy run of setting up the sharing of a folder that sits on the XP machine (I'd want to transfer the picture files from that folder to the Mac). The path it led me down was to run the XP's Network Setup Wizard. This seemed a bit odd, as the network already exists. Anyway, it got to the point where it announced that it would, in the next step, turn on F&PS and I chickened out. Quitting the wizard and going back to the very start and selecting just plain vanilla file/folder sharing instead then got me simply a strong warning notice that this option wasn't recommended. I abandoned the exercise at that point.

So, the questions that come to mind are: (1) Does that F&PS vulnerability still exist? (2) Do I really need to run XP's Network Setup Wizard, given that the network already exists, or can I ignore running that wizard and instead safely opt for plain file/folder sharing instead. Does the wizard give anything extra, eg. in firewalling against external intrusion if F&PS is enabled?

Just to clarify: my understanding is that F&PS applies at both the LAN and Internet levels and that it's because of the latter of these two that it represents (or at one time, represented) a security risk. I've no need for 'remote sharing', only sharing within the LAN, so if I can get away with plain-and-simple file/folder sharing without needing to enable F&PS, that'd suit me fine. Or is that just a contradiction?!

Edited by deleted (Mon 21-Apr-14 11:47:18)

In reply to a post by meditator:

(2) Do I really need to run XP's Network Setup Wizard, given that the network already exists

(2) No, Just turn on F&PS in the Properties of your Local Area Connection.

Only those folders you decide to share can be seen only from your LAN. Unless you are running some server, your PC does not have a visible external IP that can be accessed from outside.

F&PS applies at both the LAN and Internet levels

From where do you get that idea? When setting up sharing of a folder it says its for other users on your network.

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

Can the mac access the PC via IP address and vice versa?

Access how?

UNC path... ping... etc

Hmm well, as I stated, I'm not an expert on file-sharing. It's my understanding that file/folder sharing is possible both at the private (LAN) and Internet level. (After all, that's the basis of 'remote access', isn't it?). I thought it was precisely because of that that there existed a vulnerability. Anyway, it seems that you're saying that I needn't bother with running the Network wizard and should instead simply enable F&PS. Actually, I've found that there's also a F&PS Exception setting in the Windows XP Firewall, so I guess that would need enabling as well.

Moving on though, I've found a highly informative KB article at Microsoft's site. Have a look:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/304040

which talks about Simple File Sharing. It's quite a long document but the implication is that, for local (private) sharing you don't necessarily need to turn on F&PS. I've printed it out and will now spend some time reading it to see if any of the scenarios in it might fit my requirement.

Incidentally, when I tried to print out the KB article using the XP machine, it refused, with no feedback (other websites/webpages print okay), but when I attempted to print the KB article from the Mac it worked. So, it looks like Microsoft have now disabled printing of it, for Windows machines, given that the terminal date for WinXP support has now expired. A bit ironic, though, that it's still printable via a Mac.

In reply to a post by meditator:

Incidentally, when I tried to print out the KB article using the XP machine, it refused, with no feedback (other websites/webpages print okay), but when I attempted to print the KB article from the Mac it worked. So, it looks like Microsoft have now disabled printing of it, for Windows machines, given that the terminal date for WinXP support has now expired. A bit ironic, though, that it's still printable via a Mac.

Give over!

Sometimes it helps to "next next finish" throuhg the file and print sharing wizard as it resets a few registry settings etc if they have become incorrectly set.

But really, you should only need to type in the UNC path of the computer to browse the files, no need to run the network setup wizard. However I don't know how this all works on a Mac environment...

Do you have a 2nd windows PC you could test from first and then once that is up and running OK check between the mac and the Windows PC?

As long as you don't share all your folders to the "everyone" group you should be OK. You will be behind NAT on the router (hopefully) so people won't be able to get at your file shares easily, and the Windows firewall should be configured to only allow file n print sharing on your local subnet.

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

But really, you should only need to type in the UNC path of the computer to browse the files

Thanks, I never realised that & did not know what you meant by UNC.

Now I can use \\MyPC\MySharedFolder either in my browser. Explorer or Command Window to access my shared folders. But I already have F&PS ON so I don't know if that is really necessary.

What about the hidden share c$ ?

F&PS being enabled is not, it seems, a pre-requisite for the sharing of a printer on a local (private) network. At present, for example, I'm specifically using fixed LAN IP addresses (with DHCP turned off in the router) and can print from either the Mac or the XP machine, and yet F&PS is turned off. Same goes for printing from webpages. Currently, this situation is okay, but of course when it comes to file sharing - the issue in hand - it may well be that I've got to have F&PS turned on.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think it's pointless for someone in my position to be trying the UNC method unless and until the file/folder(s) are put into shared status.

Late news: that KB article by Microsoft must be quite old, as one or two of the initial settings described in it simply aren't available in XP any longer. So, it does indeed rather look as though you're meant to run the Network wizard instead and then set the required folder to 'shared' afterward.

Edited by deleted (Mon 21-Apr-14 15:37:03)

In reply to a post by meditator:

Incidentally, when I tried to print out the KB article using the XP machine, it refused, with no feedback

On my XP when I try to print it, it crashes IE8 and then recovers the tab. I would expect that is due to IE8 not handling the page rather than due to WinXP support now expired. It prints OK on IE11 on Win8.1.

Yeh, it was also on IE8 that I was trying to get a printout from it. I found that no matter what tricks and workarounds I tried that article simply wouldn't print. I tried printing completely different webpages elsewhere and they worked fine. On reflection, as you say, I guess there must be a particular issue or print bug in printing that article with IE8. It printed fine using the Mac, so indeed makes it look like an IE8 problem.

In reply to a post by meditator:

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think it's pointless for someone in my position to be trying the UNC method unless and until the file/folder(s) are put into shared status.

You don't know for sure whether it is enabled or not.... Typing in \\pcname would only take 5 seconds or so to check, it's worth doing.

Interesting!

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

What about the hidden share c$ ?

Yes, can see XP's C$ from either PC, but not Win8.1's C: cuz it's not shared.

In reply to a post by meditator:

that KB article by Microsoft must be quite old, as one or two of the initial settings described in it simply aren't available in XP any longer.

Which ones? It looks quite reasonable to me altho' I've got Simple File Sharing OFF so I don't see many of them.

Wouldn't bother with Network wizard. You've already set your network up & anything you can do with a wizard you can do manually often easier

Which PC is the printer physically connected to?

Looks like F&PS is required to be enabled on XP. I've just turned it off on both XP & W8.1. The XP can see shared folders on W8.1 but W8.1 can't see shared folders on XP nor its printer.

Success! I've got it working. I'll fill you in on the details tomorrow but essentially I chose (for the experiment) one particular folder on the XP machine, clicked on its Sharing option and then ran the Network wizard. Although the wizard set up the XP's firewall for F&PS it did NOT enable the F&PS setting in the Properties of the Network connection. (All along, I've had this mini-lock showing in the Ethernet Connection icon). So, in the end I had to not only manually enable F&PS but also then go back to the chosen folder and check (enable) its sharing on the network. It was then a matter of going to the Mac and opening Finder (the equivalent of Windows Explorer). Low and behold, the XP machine's name was now sitting there, in the Finder window. Clicking it made it search for any shared folders on the server machine and so the folder in question appeared. This is what I wanted and so I should now be able to copy the folder or any of its files to precisely wherever I wish on the Mac.

The one or two articles I'd found had made a big point of saying never to share a system drive, and by implication any other volume or partition on the server machine, but I've been wondering if I could, as I run several partitions on the main drive and most of the folders I'd want to copy across would be in one particular partition. I wouldn't dare touch the system partition in this regard but can you see any problem in me sharing the whole of one of the other partitions?

So it all boiled down to enabling F&PS on XP and sharing some of its folders, as I orginally recommeded, but you just took the 'high road' .

As BatBoy pointed out XP has a hidden share of C$, thereby reveling the whole of the C: drive. Try entering \\YourXPName\C$ in Mac's Finder.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

As BatBoy pointed out XP has a hidden share of C$, thereby reveling the whole of the C: drive. Try entering \\YourXPName\C$ in Mac's Finder.

I don't know about XP, but on NT that only worked if you were logged in to the remote machine as Administrator� which came in handy at times.

Dunno about NT, but, as I've already said, I can access (R&W) XP's C$ from my Admin user on W8.1.

Aye, the admin user will be in the the administrator group, and the passwords are presumably the same on the computers so credential delegation is taking place

The administrative share behaviour is changed in Windows8+

Edited by Pipexer (Tue 22-Apr-14 00:25:19)

Yeh, I suppose I did take the "high road". What held me back was F&PS and its alleged vulnerability. But the responses from you and others were educational and in the end gave me the confidence to press ahead. That's surely what these forums should be about, shouldn't it? So yes, thanks for your and others' help in this.

In XP, running the Network wizard when you attempt to share a folder and you get the warning I mentioned probably does change some settings in the Windows Registry, as was suggested. However, despite selecting in the wizard for F&PS to be turned on, that didn't happen! I later had to do it manually. On the face of it, all that the wizard appeared to do was to set up the F&PS Exception in the Windows firewall, but again I could have done that manually.

One thing that's still puzzling me is that from the outset there's been a tiny padlock showing in the Local Area Connection icon on the XP machine. After configuring for sharing, etc it's still there. Any idea what that's all about? (Bear in mind that there may well be some significant differences in the way that sharing's implemented/depicted on later machines such as Windows 7 and 8).

One other query I have is that, in XP, if you go into the Local Area Connection properties dialog box where TCP/IP, Client for MS Networks, F&PS for MS Networks, etc show, when you highlight F&PS you see a couple of buttons, Install and Uninstall. These are for services to be added to F&PS and appear to include: Service, Protocol and Client. Which, if any, of these three should I ensure are added, and which sub-services?

In reply to a post by meditator:

there's been a tiny padlock showing in the Local Area Connection icon on the XP machine. After configuring for sharing, etc it's still there. Any idea what that's all about?

Dunno! Never seen a padlock. Do you mean the icon in System Tray (bottom R)?

Idea: In your Network Connections, do you have an Internet Gateway Connected? Does your router have uPnP ON?

In reply to a post by meditator:

when you highlight F&PS you see a couple of buttons, Install and Uninstall. These are for services to be added to F&PS and appear to include: Service, Protocol and Client. Which, if any, of these three should I ensure are added, and which sub-services?

Never used them! But if click on Install & then Add one of those, it will invite you to install some obscure features, like Netware & Adverts, and it seems you need a CD. So can't see that any of them are interesting unless you have specialist requirements.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Tue 22-Apr-14 15:29:10)

No, I don't mean an icon in the Systray.

(I don't know which version of Windows you're using, but if it's post-XP don't assume that the configuring of networking and the way it's presented onscreen are exactly the same).

No, my router does not use UPnP.

Apart from these oddities, everything seems to be working okay at present.

In reply to a post by meditator:

No, I don't mean an icon in the Systray.

Then where is this icon?

I am using XP and I described exactly how the F&PS Installs present themselves on XP. I assumed nowt as we are both talking XP.