Using old BT 2wire 2700 Business HUB as a wireless AP - HELP

Hi all,

Totally confused - I thought this was supposed to be easy!

Trying to help a mate out, who has his broadband router (PlusNet) - in a bedroom upstairs. The Wifi signal downstairs is terrible(1 bar), due to lots of steel in his house), and he wants the wifi signal to be available outside at the end of his garden (no chance as it is now).

So my plan to assist him. My dad had an unused 2Wire BT Business hub in his garage (it's a few years old) - but did some research on how to set them up as a wireless AP. It's as simple as disabling DHCP, manually assigning an IP, and using a TP link pair, to connect it to the other router right? - It works, but roaming between router A and B gives me endless issues.

I will explain the setup, hopefully someone can help.

ROUTER (A) - Main ADSL Router - PlusNet
IP:192.168.1.254
CHANNEL 3
SSID:PLUSNET123456 (default plusnet SSID)
WPA-WPA2 PSK
Default WPA PIN

ROUTER (B) - Downstairs 2Wire BT Business Hub (2700)
Reset to Defaults.
Booted up, set IP as 192.168.1.10 (I've also tried 192.168.1.253)
Set Subnet 255.255.255.0
Reconnected to 192.168.1.10
Can login OK
Disabled BT Fusion (as not required)
Changed SSID to "PLUSNET 123456 - Down" - done
Changed Channel to Channel 11
Kept WPA password to same as one upstairs

Now - Using 2 paired TP Links, plugged one end into a spare RJ45 on ROUTER A
Connected other one to spare RJ45 on ROUTER B. - TP links are flashing away (good)

Tests..

Connect another CAT5 cable to Router B, and plug into 4K TV. (downstairs)
4K TV said - connected to internet
Test 4K stream - perfect (we know it's acting as an AP, and getting out to the internet)

Wifi Test

Ipad, iPhone, android, Laptop tests.

All can see the new Wireless AP "PLUSNET 123456 - Down" - good!
Connect to it - all are prompted for the password
Enter the password - CONNECTED!
Browse the internet - Speeds as expected, all good.

NOW - The issue!

Take devices upstairs, to ensure it switches to the upstairs Router.

Yes, connects to upstairs PlusNet router - internet speeds are fine.

Now! - move back downstairs, and no devices can talk to ROUTER B any more - without doing anything! - try to reconnect using ipad, IPhone - it gives error "invalid password" - android devices can all see the device with 3 bars, but fail to reconnect. - I know it's not the password, I am just guessing the apple devices are struggling to reassign and reconnect for some reason, but the device is just assuming the password is incorrect.

Tried playing with different channels, and get mixed success - just randomly kicks you off.

Is this a hardware compatability issue with this router, as I would expect a paid for dedicated wireless AP to work seamlessly - just wanted to save him some cash.

I read somewhere, that certain routers, might need to use different Subnets or something, could this be this issue? - if so what do I need to do?

Anyone have any tips, before I throw this router in the bin, and go buy a dedicated AP?

Cheers
Nick

I use the same SSID and passwords on both routers.

Thanks - forgot to mention, this is the first thing we tried.

When we set the SSID's and WPA passwords to match exactly, but change the channel.. Only one device is then ever listed (obviously)

The devices however, randomly see the stronger signal downstairs, for a few seconds, then switch back to the weaker signal upstairs. - then often, it will only ever connect to the 1 bar weaker signal upstairs, and never connect to the stronger one downstairs.

Renaming them, allows both to be seen, but gives me the issue in the original post.

Baffled!

Something like Acrylic wifi on Windows (and similar Android apps) will show you the signal strength of your routers. I would not expect a device to switch from one SSID to another automatically if it can still just see the one it is connected to. I would think your difficulty lies in the way devices switch Wifi networks rather than the properties of the access points.

I have three 2700s working as WAPs.. I have security set to WPA-PSK and WPA2-PSK with my own password. 802.11b/g and 54Mbps

My main router is a 2701 - it has a different name, but the same password.

All seem to work fine - most of the time, just a reboot every few months.


I am thinking back several years - and I know my devices are named ABCDE_99_IV, ABCDE_99_IX and similar. I used the underscore _ rather than spaces in the names. You may want to try that on doth of yours and maybe shorten teh length from "PLUSNET 123456 - Down" to "PN_99_down".

I could try that.

Do you think I would get the exact same issue, if I bought a brand new dedicated Wired & Wireless AP from a shop? - my thoughts are that if I buy something, for that specific purpose - it should just plug and play - otherwise the companies that sell dedicated devices would have a nightmare supporting them.

Can anyone still explain the possibilities of why the devices will not reconnect to router B, when named differently (other than a name change) - but forgetting ROUTER A allows connection to ROUTER B (until you join ROUTER A again) - then it denies ROUTER B after that.

Could setting ROUTER A' and ROUTER B's subnet to 255.255.0.0 make a difference? - to allow ROUTER A more IP addresses to allocate?

Edited by deleted (Wed 15-Nov-17 12:16:04)

I think your problem is the ssid. I would change it to something simple.

Use Chanel 1 6 and 11

https://www.metageek.com/training/resources/why-chan...

Plenty of ISP routers can no longer be used as access points since ISPs pushed out firmware updates that enable IPv6 which cannot be turned off, hence the access point starts allocating IPv6 internal addresses.

One example is the smarthub, you�ll get an IPv6 address on the extender AP that goes nowhere if it has the latest firmware.

It could be faulty hardware also.

That should not make a difference, there are plenty of addresses available and all are allocated by A. Leave it at 255.255.255.0

Have you set the DHCP server on A to only allocate from say .50 to ,200 and then give B an address of .210

IPV6 definitely turned off, alongside IPV4 on the 2nd hub?

thanks guys for all the assistance- I tried multiple channels, router a on channel 1, router B on channel 11. Same, one attempt it then allowed connection, then move upstairs, then back downstairs and then invalid password.

did you simplify the ssid's?

the plus net router (routerA) - doesn't seem to have any advanced menus.

I tried to find the menu to define the IP allocation pool, but was nowhere to be seen, so currently it is allowing 192.168.0.2-253 I assume.

I tried on 2 attempts (fresh starts)

The first I assigned ROUTER B as 192.168.1.253 (same issue)
Then tried 192.168.1.10 (same issue)

If anyone knows if there is a hidden advanced menu on old PlusNet Routers, I could give it a whirl. (sorry I don't know the model of the router, but can find out)

Is the IPv6 problem stated above a possibility? - I cant see anywhere on router B to change the IPv6/4 setting.

sorry I'm not at his house to test. I remember testing it at my own house before I attempted his, and got the same error when in conjunction with my own router (talktalk fibre router) - at that time I renamed Router B as "Kitchen" - and it still gave invalid password when connecting, until I forgot ROUTER A (my talktalk router) - this was something I then just assumed was something to do with my talktalk router (don't wanna go off track, and confuse the post - sorry. Just not sure simplifying the names on both routers is the issue (although I will eat my words when I manage to test it later)

ROUTER A is
SAGEMCOM ROUTER 2704N PLUSNET

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

IPV6 definitely turned off, alongside IPV4 on the 2nd hub?

Hi this sounds interesting. I've not touched an IPV6 / IPV4 settings on any router. Can you elaborate what I should be make sure they are both doing? - sorry - first time I've tried this, and learning as I go - appreciate the support.

Just ensure the ssid's are totally different like LOUNGE, UPSTAIRS or KITCHEN, BEDROOM

You do need to try simplifying the SSIDs and try them as the same and different.

In reply to a post by MHC:

You do need to try simplifying the SSIDs and try them as the same and different.

So far my list of things to try are

1) Simplify SSID's ROUTERA = UPSTAIRS, ROUTER B = DOWNSTAIRS.
Same password ( will also try different passwords)
Then try SAME SSID Simplified - ROUTER A&B = MYHOUSE

2) Set ROUTERB as 192.168.1.230
(from google) - then on ROUTER A maybe use http://192.168.1.254/expert_user.html
And hopefully try to set the DHCP pool from 192.168.1.1 - 192.168.1.200

Reboot both Routers, try again.

3) - investigate the IPv6 and IPv4 - issue - once I understand the requirements.

Edited by deleted (Wed 15-Nov-17 15:03:16)

That is a good starting point - I would suggest using 192.168.1.20 to .200 or similar. Leaving a few empty at both ends. Give teh 2700 a fixed IP of .210 for example.

Make sure the names do not have any trailing spaces either. And you can use fairly simple passwords to start with before ramping them up. However, can I suggest that you try, very briefly with NO password set.

The 2700 does not use IPv6 as far as I know so that may not be an issue.

I would also try without the tplink powerline adaptos....try the routers side by side first just connected via a short LAN cable;

Ian

In reply to a post by ian007jen:

I would also try without the tplink powerline adaptos....try the routers side by side first just connected via a short LAN cable;

Ian

The routers are linking fine through TP link, internet comes through to Router B, and I can access both routers IP address instantly one I'm connected to ROUTER A, using either Wireless or Wired. - The issue is when switching to ROUTER B

Using Wired devices on ROUTER B - are working just fine, no issues - it's just WIFI

So my tests are as follows.

I've just repeated the steps asked

Told Router A to have a pool of 192.168.1.10 - 192.168.1.200 - done
SET ROUTER B as IP 192.168.1.230
Can connect to both routers IP address fine .

SET ROUTER A SSID = HOUSE
SET ROUTER B SSID = KITCHEN
Set password on ROUTER A as 00000000
Set password on ROUTER B as 00000000

Can connect wirelessly to ROUTER A (HOUSE) on LAPTOP and IPHONE
When connecting to ROUTER B (KITCHEN) on LAPTOP and IPHONE, it asks for password.
Enter password 00000000

Invalid password. (Still same symptoms)

Forget ROUTER A (HOUSE)
try to connect to ROUTER B ( KITCHEN) - Failed - invalid password - also fails to connect via laptop.
Reboot ROUTER B ( KITCHEN)
After reboot, IPhone and Laptop can connect to ROUTER B (KITCHEN) - Speedtest, returns good results.
Connect to ROUTER A (HOUSE)
Connected fine, speed test OK.
Connect to ROUTER B (KITCHEN) - FAILED - invalid password on iPhone
Connect to ROUTER B ( KITCHEN) -FAILED - LAPTOP checking network, failed to connect.

Cant connect to ROUTER B, until I reboot ROUTER B - and it connects first time, until I reconnect back to ROUTER A - then I cant connect again to ROUTER B again.

Stumped.

Edited by deleted (Wed 15-Nov-17 19:19:10)

The router that has the internet connection is that one that should have an active DHCP server. Router B in your case. DHCP should be deactivated on the router that does not have the internet connection.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

The router that has the internet connection is that one that should have an active DHCP server. Router B in your case. DHCP should be deactivated on the router that does not have the internet connection.

ROUTER A (has the ADSL connection)
DHCP - ENABLED

ROUTER B (is connected to ROUTER A via Cat5 Cable) - no ADSL connection
DHCP - DISABLED

can connect to ROUTER B on first connect - and get intenet
Can then connect to ROUTER A - and get internet
Cannot connect to ROUTER B - ever AGAIN, until I reboot ROUTER B. - then only allows connection until I connect to ROUTER A - then stops again on ALL Wireless devices. Wired is fine.

Does your laptop run a late version of Windows e.g. 7, 8 10?

If so, does what you describe happen with the laptop if you click on the Wifi icon at the right hand end of the task bar and then select the SSID of router B?

Do you have another spare router?

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

Does your laptop run a late version of Windows e.g. 7, 8 10?

If so, does what you describe happen with the laptop if you click on the Wifi icon at the right hand end of the task bar and then select the SSID of router B?

Do you have another spare router?

I see ROUTER B when clicking wifi icon, it displays, asks for key, then just says connecting, then, failed to connect (Windows 10)

However, if I reboot ROUTER B, it connects first time on iPhone, laptop etc.. internet fine. Only when moving to ROUTER A, then back to ROUTER B it fails.

Annoyingly, I threw out my old talktalk router, otherwise I would have tried with that.

The firmware version on the 2wire BT router is

System Information

Model: BT2700HGV
Hardware Version: 2701-100589-005
Firmware Version: 6.1.1.48-enh.tm

Just wondering whether to see if I can upgrade firmware, or access deeper settings to change things.

Edited by deleted (Wed 15-Nov-17 21:15:40)

You might want to read this.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

You might want to read this.

That was the first page I googled. Which I followed, to no avail. It's simply does not like talking to Wifi on ROUTER B, when DHCP is disabled and plugged into ROUTER A.

I've ran out of ideas to try, so this router is going in the bin, and I'm going to get a dedicated Wireless/Wired AP.

I can only assume it's a NAT restriction of some kind, maybe firmware limitation, but can't see a way to downgrade or upgrade the router firmware, so it's the end of the road for me.

It says "Note: The DHCP server on BT firmware v6.1.1.22 cannot be disabled, and so it cannot be used as a WAP."

However, he is on 6.1.1.48


Having used 2700s as WAPs for many years, without problems, there has to be something fundamentally wrong with the set up.

In reply to a post by MHC:

However, he is on 6.1.1.48

So can you turn off DHCP on that?

Yes, text from one running here:

System Information
Model: BT2700HGV
Hardware Version: 2701-100589-005
Firmware Version: 6.1.1.48.1-enh.tm
MAC address:
Key Code:
First Use Date: Not Set
Current Date & Time: Not Set
Time Since Last Boot: 10 days 16:11:46
System Password: Custom: ******
Manufacturer: 2Wire, Inc.

And

DHCP Configuration
++button++ DHCP Server Enabled
Unchecking will stop the DHCP server from assigning IP addresses to LAN DHCP clients.
DHCP Network Range If you change the IP address range, you must renew the DHCP lease for all devices on the network.
192.168.1.0 / 255.255.255.0 (default)
172.16.0.0 / 255.255.0.0
10.0.0.0 / 255.255.0.0
Configure manually

There is a button - missing in the quoted text, and that is OFF/Unchecked.

In reply to a post by MHC:

there has to be something fundamentally wrong with the set up.

agreed

Going back, I have used various firmware versions in 2700's including those from 5.xx series and the latest in 2701s without any major issues. I could pull one of mine out now, and install an alternate and have it up and running in 2 minutes.

There could possibly be issues with leases not being released, or the Host (router A) seeing the device trying to access twice as it does not realise it is no longer connected to itself.

Bobfat is ok via wired. Is the release of the lease only affected via WIFI?

In reply to a post by Bobfat:

[SNIP]
It works, but roaming between router A and B gives me endless issues.

Roaming between WiFi access points is an "enterprise" leave feature. The basic problem is that as you move a device from away from the first access point towards the second access point the device won't of it's own accord switch to using the second access point until the signal from the first access point actually fails. As such you can be right next to the second access point but still be connected to the first access point getting a slow connection. People who report it works invariably have actual dead spots in coverage so it "appears" to work.

What happens in an "enterprise" system is that the access points are talking to one another. As you move into the range of access point two, the access point determines that device is moving away from it, it informs device to prepare to switch to a new access point. The device then requests list of nearby access points, and then moves to the to best access point based on report from the access point. This all happens seamlessly and the technical standard that this is known by is called IEEE 802.11k.

This sort of setup will cost you significantly more £££ than sticking two ordinary access points on the network even if they have the same SSID and password. I am also unaware of any system that works with access points from different vendors. They are invariable single vendor solutions

There are however 802.11k WiFi systems being targeted at the home user. For example BT's Whole Home WiFi is one such system. Currently on a Black Friday deal with £50 off, but it's still £100 for two access points. Though these are AC capable points and do band steering as well. That is if your device is 5GHz capable they will flip you over to that if you are connected at 2.4GHz to free up the 2.4GHz spectrum.

The sort of system you have put together is fine as long as you don't expect to be able to seamlessly roam between the access points. Note that a 802.11k system will require that you disable any WiFi in the router you have.

The only other comment I would make is that resist all temptations to use anything other than Cat5e or better still Cat6 cable to link the access points together if you can possibly can. Using Homeplug and WiFi is going to be another source of problems, so lift heaven and earth to get that ethernet cable in place. There are flat ethernet cables that can make the job easier.

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

What happens in an "enterprise" system is that the access points are talking to one another. As you move into the range of access point two, the access point determines that device is moving away from it, it informs device to prepare to switch to a new access point. The device then requests list of nearby access points, and then moves to the to best access point based on report from the access point. This all happens seamlessly and the technical standard that this is known by is called IEEE 802.11k.

For this to work, does the device also have to support 802.11k?

Yes it does. Android support is patchy, but iOS and Windows support is good. Note there is a related standard 802.11r which does fast authentication, which can help as some (possibly most) of the enterprise solutions will force a move by doing a deauth on a device with a weak signal if an alternative access point can see it with a better signal and it does not suport 802.11k. This is however not seamless like 802.11k, there will be a momentary break in connectivity.

Regardless two ordinary access points with the same SSID and password does not make a good roaming solution. If you want enterprise features you need to buy enterprise devices and potentially pay enterprise prices. Though the BT Whole Home product looks a good bet to me on the Black Friday deal at the moment. Not that I have any direct experience with it personally, certainly cheaper than the solutions I have previously installed.

Most of the new Mesh WiFi products (e.g Google Home. BT Whole Home WiFi) support roaming between WiFi access points.

We've installed three BT Whole Home WiFi with ethernet back haul in our house which has until now been a problem for WiFi. I'm very impressed with it and the roaming between base stations works very well - enterprise level.

NB - the BT system does not include a router and you should either turn WiFi off on your router or give it a different ID unless it really can mesh with the BT system. My Ubiquiti ER-X router has no WiFi...

The easiest solution as I see it, without buying expensive mesh systems, is to plug the powerline adapters directly into a wall socket (not a extension lead/adapter) to avoid interference to other devices etc. If router a which is connected to the phone line has a IP of 192.168.1.254, give the second router a easy to remember IP address (say 192.168.1.200). Leave DHCP on for router connected to the phone line, but turn DHCP off on the second one. If the routers are dual band, unsync the 2.4 and 5G bands, and give each of them a unique SSID network name (no two SSIDs will now be the same, but the passwords can be). Save all the settings to both routers and now via the powerline adapters, connect them up via the LAN ports on each router. Yes you will have to manually connect when you move from point A to point B, but at least the connections will be stable. A device not recognising a correct password in my experience is down to wifi interference, possibly caused by a overlap of the two identically named access points. Hope this helps...

The problem is that roaming between the access points is not working. Not that a stable connection is not possible if you don't move. The problem with invalid passwords is most likely that there is confusion from the device about talking to the access point so the authentication is getting split brained between the two points.

Most people want to be able to wander around their home with a working WiFi connection and not have to think about switching your connection from one access point to another.

The problem is that WiFi was not originally designed with roaming in mind. Hence the much later standards 802.11k and to some extent 802.11r to make roaming actually work, and a whole load of proprietary hacks in the interim.

The solution is simple as I have explained, you need a 802.11k system. Either you are willing to pay for it and your WiFi just works in the way you might expect, or you are not willing and/or able to pay for it and your WiFi will have constant issues.

All I can say is that when I fixed up proper roaming WiFi for my brother and then my sister they where really please even though it cost quite a bit of money. More than the Black Friday deal on the BT Whole House system is at the moment. In both instances I tried the cheap hack that was tried here. In both instances the issues that the OP have reported occurred. My brother was the first to get fed up and splash the cash for proper system. The success of that was enough to convince my sister and her husband that spending the cash on a full on system was worth it.

For me I am lucky in that a carefully positioned ceiling mounted access point does the job for the whole house.