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Standard User cbackham
(learned) Mon 28-Dec-20 15:52:16
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WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[link to this post]
 
I'm interested in getting improved WiFi coverage around the house, and was initially attracted to Mesh systems. However, after a bit of reading I'm no longer so sure about them, and hope that there may be some experts around here who can help me out.

I had initially (and naively) thought that a Mesh system would perhaps use some kind of magic so that it appeared to any client devices as one big wide-coverage access point, thus obviating any need for roaming. But what I've read seems to suggest that I was living in a fantasy world, and clients still have to roam between the nodes in a mesh network. To the clients, the mesh is still just a bunch of APs with the same SSID. Have I got that right?

And what's more, if the mesh nodes need to send data between them over their wireless connections, the bandwidth starts degrading. So ideally it's best to hardwire each mesh node via ethernet. If that is correct, then what's the difference between a mesh system and multiple APs with a shared SSID (apart from being more expensive)? What am I missing?
Standard User troublegum
(member) Mon 28-Dec-20 17:00:47
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: cbackham] [link to this post]
 
The mesh system units should be able to work together and try to push the client to a better access point, when the client moves away from the currently connected AP. If fast roaming is supported then it should be seamless to the client and will have the appearance of one big access point.

With multiple APs as the client moves away from the AP, it will try to hold on to the weakening signal, even though there may now be a nearer AP. The user may have to manually reconnect or the connection may be dropped as the client disconnects and reconnects to the closer and stronger AP.

Yes for cheaper mesh systems the backhaul is shared with the normal bandwidth, but the more expensive systems have dedicated wireless backhaul.

Personally I’ve got a TP-Link Deco M5 with 3 units and can’t fault it.
Standard User dustmaker
(newbie) Mon 28-Dec-20 17:25:01
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: cbackham] [link to this post]
 
Mesh systems should have multiple antennas to separate the wireless backhaul from the client bandwidth (at least the more expensive ones will do). However you are still sending more data over the crowded airwaves if you are relying on wireless backhaul.

Some mesh systems will have the option to use wired backhaul, avoiding the need to duplicate the data sent over the air.

I opted for a Ubiquity system with a Dream Machine as the router and additional wired access points in the loft and garden office; the Ubiquity system supports fast roaming between access points and I have found it to be seamless. It also allowed me to create additional wireless networks with their own virtual LAN that automatically propagate across all the access points to segregate personal devices (phones, laptops etc.) from IoT devices that only need internet access (CCTV cameras, smart home hubs etc).


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Standard User cbackham
(learned) Mon 28-Dec-20 17:27:35
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: troublegum] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by troublegum:
The mesh system units should be able to work together and try to push the client to a better access point, when the client moves away from the currently connected AP. If fast roaming is supported then it should be seamless to the client and will have the appearance of one big access point.

So you seem to be confirming that the clients do have to roam between the mesh nodes.

Given that it's the client which makes the decisions about if and when to switch, what does a mesh system do to encourage it to switch that a standard AP doesn't? If you're referring to sending out neighbour reports that can help the client decide, then APs can deliver those too, can't they?

In reply to a post by troublegum:
With multiple APs as the client moves away from the AP, it will try to hold on to the weakening signal, even though there may now be a nearer AP.

How does the client know whether it's conected to an AP or a mesh node? Why would it hang on to a normal AP but not a mesh node?

I've read about "sticky clients" and the measures you can take in AP setup to discourage it. Is it simply that a mesh system has these measures configured by default?

I'm not trying to be argumentative - I genuinely want to understand what, if anything, distinguishes a mesh node from a normal AP from the client's POV.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 28-Dec-20 17:43:26
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: cbackham] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by cbackham:
I'm not trying to be argumentative - I genuinely want to understand what, if anything, distinguishes a mesh node from a normal AP from the client's POV.

Enterprise AP's with shared controller, can. Most people don't have the money to install the top end enterprise grade (e.g. Cisco) in a home. Ubiquity and others have lower priced professional products, but they are often more expensive than domestic mesh systems.

Domestic mesh systems, with or without separate wireless back haul, are cost effective ways of managing WiFi connectivity in a home, where structured cabling in ceiling voids is not generally available smile

If you define an AP as a "repurposed router" then we are talking at cross purposes.

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User TimJ
(committed) Mon 28-Dec-20 20:30:30
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: cbackham] [link to this post]
 
We live in a large T shaped bungalow that requires 3 AP to cover it. We used to use the router and 2 random wired AP, but it was far from seamless, the google audio chromecasts could only be seen from the AP they were connected to. The whole system seemed clunky and required frequent reboots and attention.

Two and a half years ago I bit the bullet and got 3 Ubiquiti mesh AP, expensive, but they have truly been fit and forget and enjoy seamless WiFi throughout the property and near garden. A very worthwhile investment.
Standard User danielhyde
(member) Tue 29-Dec-20 09:23:16
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: cbackham] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by cbackham:
In reply to a post by troublegum:
The mesh system units should be able to work together and try to push the client to a better access point, when the client moves away from the currently connected AP. If fast roaming is supported then it should be seamless to the client and will have the appearance of one big access point.

So you seem to be confirming that the clients do have to roam between the mesh nodes.

Given that it's the client which makes the decisions about if and when to switch, what does a mesh system do to encourage it to switch that a standard AP doesn't? If you're referring to sending out neighbour reports that can help the client decide, then APs can deliver those too, can't they?

In reply to a post by troublegum:
With multiple APs as the client moves away from the AP, it will try to hold on to the weakening signal, even though there may now be a nearer AP.

How does the client know whether it's conected to an AP or a mesh node? Why would it hang on to a normal AP but not a mesh node?

I've read about "sticky clients" and the measures you can take in AP setup to discourage it. Is it simply that a mesh system has these measures configured by default?

I'm not trying to be argumentative - I genuinely want to understand what, if anything, distinguishes a mesh node from a normal AP from the client's POV.


The access point can boot the client when it sees its signal drop below a certain threshold then the client should connect to a mesh point with a stronger signal.
Standard User cbackham
(learned) Tue 29-Dec-20 09:43:24
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: danielhyde] [link to this post]
 
OK, thanks to everyone who has commented, but nobody has actually answered the question I asked.

Let me rephrase it.
Suppose I have three "traditional" access points with a shared SSID, and some client devices with unknown protocol support. (For example, I very much doubt any of my mobile devices support 802.11r). As these devices move around, they might need to roam between the APs. Some of them ("sticky clients") may be reluctant to make the move.

Now suppose I replace those APs with a mesh system, and all of the mesh nodes are hard-wired to the router. The same mobile devices with unknown protocol support will still need to roam between the nodes. And if they are "sticky clients", they might still be reluctant to make the move.

Here is the core, fundamental question: What mechanism(s) does a mesh system use that will encourage the mobile devices to switch to a different node that the APs can't?

It's not enough to give me anecdotes where someone has replaced APs with a mesh and it worked better. I want to know WHY.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 29-Dec-20 11:35:48
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: cbackham] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by cbackham:
Suppose I have three "traditional" access points with a shared SSID, and some client devices with unknown protocol support.

As I asked, by "traditional" do you mean re-purposing domestic "routers" (or "hub") with DHCP and NAT disabled?

If so then they do not know about each other.

A mesh system, or a corporate system, know about the other transmitters. The corporate systems use a single controller, the mesh share control information between each other.

They can each measure the signal strength from the device, and transmitter A can decide to decline to respond, where transmitter B can decide to respond.

This gets around the problem where your device hangs on connected to the transmitter that is 4 rooms away, even when you have another transmitter in the same room, because the device CAN work, badly, with long range WiFi, but you don't want it to.

They need to share the control information to do this.

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User cbackham
(regular) Tue 29-Dec-20 12:23:34
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
In reply to a post by cbackham:
Suppose I have three "traditional" access points with a shared SSID, and some client devices with unknown protocol support.

As I asked, by "traditional" do you mean re-purposing domestic "routers" (or "hub") with DHCP and NAT disabled?

No, I'm referring to genuine access points, for example TP-Link AC1750, Ubiquiti UAP-AC-LR or similar.

In reply to a post by jchamier:
A mesh system, or a corporate system, know about the other transmitters. The corporate systems use a single controller, the mesh share control information between each other.
They can each measure the signal strength from the device, and transmitter A can decide to decline to respond, where transmitter B can decide to respond.

OK, understood.

It's my understanding that you can configure some APs to stop responding once the RSSI drops below a certain threshold, and that will force the client to seek another AP, which should achieve the same end result.

But perhaps the kind of APs that will be configurable to that extent will be no cheaper than a mesh system, in which case perhaps a mesh system will be easier to deploy.

Thanks for your help.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 29-Dec-20 12:52:39
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: cbackham] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by cbackham:
No, I'm referring to genuine access points, for example TP-Link AC1750, Ubiquiti UAP-AC-LR or similar.
To get the maximum benefit from devices such as the Ubiquiti, you need to link them to a shared controller. I don't have any info on TPLink products.
It's my understanding that you can configure some APs to stop responding once the RSSI drops below a certain threshold, and that will force the client to seek another AP, which should achieve the same end result.
I believe that is the case, and enterprise systems that can cover huge function rooms and similar will have multiple APs in the room with tuned coverage. I've seen this on Cisco enterprise hardware in a corporate environment with over 2000 APs.
But perhaps the kind of APs that will be configurable to that extent will be no cheaper than a mesh system, in which case perhaps a mesh system will be easier to deploy.

Thanks for your help.
Exactly, especially in a home environment. If you have Ethernet cabling in all the rooms, many of the domestic mesh systems can back haul over Ethernet, which means you can buy cheaper system with less radios. The expensive mesh have three radio, 1x2.4, 2x5, so that the backhaul runs over the second 5. The downside is if your area has a lot of homes with WiFi that this needs two clear 5Ghz channels. Easier in the US where homes are further apart than in the average UK street. smile

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User dogcat
(learned) Thu 31-Dec-20 13:42:15
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
The TP link AP range are the Omada line and start with EAP e.g. EAP245 is the AC1750 variant. TP-Link uses a controller software that runs either on a windows / Linux box (e.g. on a VM on a server) or you can buy the standalone boxes OC200, or the new OC300 (that ones for managing upto 500 AP's so complete overkill for home use).

Other one to look out for is Zyxel, there AP line works similar to TP-link and Ubiquiti and can be had occasionally with some good offers.

As to OP's question the one real choice as to whether Mesh or AP's is down to the one thing nobody mentioned i.e. the house construction. If you have an old house with solid brick / block / stone walls then run cables and go AP's, as Mesh will always struggle. If you have a modern house with timber framed walls then Mesh is doable, just need to put the Mesh points in logical places near a stairwell or other void between floors.
Standard User Hawthorns
(committed) Mon 04-Jan-21 16:58:43
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: dogcat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by dogcat:
As to OP's question the one real choice as to whether Mesh or AP's is down to the one thing nobody mentioned i.e. the house construction. If you have an old house with solid brick / block / stone walls then run cables and go AP's, as Mesh will always struggle. If you have a modern house with timber framed walls then Mesh is doable, just need to put the Mesh points in logical places near a stairwell or other void between floors.

My house has a stone wall in the middle of it. Spousal acceptance precludes running cables so I have used TP-Link Deco M5s with a line of sight along a corridor between the access points either side of the wall. Works a treat; I've finally got decent wifi throughout the house which I have never been able to achieve before.

Had I been allowed to run cables I could have provided the backhaul between units that way.

BT FTTP
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 04-Jan-21 18:17:32
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Hawthorns:
My house has a stone wall in the middle of it. Spousal acceptance precludes running cables so I have used TP-Link Deco M5s with a line of sight along a corridor between the access points either side of the wall. Works a treat; I've finally got decent wifi throughout the house which I have never been able to achieve before.
I've seen similar in houses with stone walls.

For those not in stone wall houses, there is today a high possibility that top end mesh hardware with separate 5 GHz back haul, can provide faster throughput than a Gigabit Ethernet cable, especially for multiple users. May not matter to most homes as the internet (WAN) link is the bottleneck, but for some technical types this may be of interest. More likely as WiFi 6 based mesh hardware becomes cheaper.

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User caffn8me
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 04-Jan-21 19:41:20
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
For those not in stone wall houses, there is today a high possibility that top end mesh hardware with separate 5 GHz back haul, can provide faster throughput than a Gigabit Ethernet cable
How? Reference? Inquiring minds want to know.

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 04-Jan-21 20:12:52
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: caffn8me] [link to this post]
 
Only possible with hardware that has 2.5gb ports or aggregated 1gb ports to the wired network and using WiFi-6 but I read that you could achieve 1.3 Gbit over radio. I don’t have a reference. Perhaps I’ve completely misunderstood ?

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 04-Jan-21 21:26:00
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
Only possible with hardware that has 2.5gb ports or aggregated 1gb ports to the wired network and using WiFi-6 but I read that you could achieve 1.3 Gbit over radio. I don’t have a reference. Perhaps I’ve completely misunderstood ?

I'll believe it when I see it (A WiFi client having better throughput than 1Gbps ethernet) - I've not seen it yet smile

Andrews & Arnold Home ::1 on Draytek 2862ac - Why settle for inferior?
Standard User adrenalize_
(regular) Mon 04-Jan-21 23:45:45
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: caffn8me] [link to this post]
 
In theory/on paper something like the Asus ROG Rapture GT-AX11000 which has a 2.5Gbps LAN port and dual 5GHz 4x4 WiFi 6 which can me meshed to another GT-AX11000 using one of the 5GHz radios.

I think the Netgear Orbi RBK853 also has a 2.5Gbps LAN/WAN port and similar radio specs

In practice.....well I doubt you'd get anything like to the quoted speeds. And the price - err wait for it something daft like £700 for Orbi + 1 satellite and £900 for 2 satellites!!
Standard User prlzx
(experienced) Tue 05-Jan-21 00:46:15
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
Only possible with hardware that has 2.5gb ports or aggregated 1gb ports to the wired network and using WiFi-6 but I read that you could achieve 1.3 Gbit over radio. I don’t have a reference. Perhaps I’ve completely misunderstood ?

Even if you achieve 1.3Gbps over radio, that will be the aggregate value (total of both directions).

Like-for-like a 1 gigabit connection over ethernet cable has a non-shared capacity of 2Gbps aggregate and the same cable may support multigigabit with the right NICs, so the Wi-Fi data rate needs to meet or exceed 2Gbps or even multiples thereof to be truly "faster".

Also, the headline maximum Wi-Fi data rate is nearly always quoted for a single client device connected to an AP and nothing else sharing the same band.

To make matters worse, in UK devices do not yet have access to as many non-DFS channels as USA,
so the inevitable marketing of sending out routers defaulting to 80MHz, 160MHz and wider channel widths also misleads people.
It's not guaranteed that all AP and client devices support channels numbered 140+ for example unless they have been through certification again, as they were previously only for light-licensed use and in principle for point-to-point wireless rather than domestic AP to client access.

In a corporate setting with dozens of APs per building people often want to know why the APs aren't advertising a Wi-Fi rate they "see" at home.



prlzx on Zen: FTTC (VDSL) at ~40Mbps / 10Mbps
with IP4/6 (no v6? - not true Internet)

Edited by prlzx (Tue 05-Jan-21 01:01:18)

Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 05-Jan-21 06:13:47
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: prlzx] [link to this post]
 
Agreed, I was thinking point-to-point for the top speeds, but real-world is going to be impossible, and it appears there are too many variables. smile

I will wait until WiFi 9 smile smile

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User prlzx
(experienced) Tue 05-Jan-21 11:30:29
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
I mean don't get me wrong, I continue to find it remarkable that denser constellations such as 256QAM and 1024QAM work at all, let alone still having usable Wi-Fi throughput at -70dBm (0.000,000,000,1 watts).



prlzx on Zen: FTTC (VDSL) at ~40Mbps / 10Mbps
with IP4/6 (no v6? - not true Internet)
Standard User caffn8me
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 05-Jan-21 11:59:27
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
Only possible with hardware that has 2.5gb ports or aggregated 1gb ports to the wired network and using WiFi-6 but I read that you could achieve 1.3 Gbit over radio. I don’t have a reference. Perhaps I’ve completely misunderstood ?
Well, Cat6 cable will give you 10Gbps up to about 55 metres and Cat6A up to 100 metres - provided that the ethernet ports support that rate. You can see real world tests of Wi-Fi 6 systems, including mesh here. Speeds of 1.52Gbps appear to be possible if you're within five feet of the access point but if you put a bit more distance or obstacles in the path you'll see less than 1Gbps.

Higher speeds on Wi-Fi 6 require 80MHz or 160MHz channels and of these only one 80MHz channel doesn't fall into the DFS category in the UK [Source (PDF)]. Whether you can use DFS channels or not depends very much on where you're located. I use one at home without any issue but the only time I tried to use 5GHz for a mesh wi-fi link in deepest rural Worcestershire it turned out to be a disaster with constant connection drops. I then discovered the installation was less than ten miles direct line of sight from a Met Office radar installation co-located with a NATS air traffic radar at Tittersone Clee Hill.

There are no circumstances at the moment in which I'd consider using a wi-fi link between access points when I could be using ethernet.

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 05-Jan-21 19:17:20
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: prlzx] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by prlzx:
I mean don't get me wrong, I continue to find it remarkable that denser constellations such as 256QAM and 1024QAM work at all, let alone still having usable Wi-Fi throughput at -70dBm (0.000,000,000,1 watts).
Agreed, these are impressive technologies. WiFi seems to be benefiting from progress in the mobile industry.

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 05-Jan-21 19:23:54
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: caffn8me] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by caffn8me:
Well, Cat6 cable will give you 10Gbps up to about 55 metres and Cat6A up to 100 metres - provided that the ethernet ports support that rate. You can see real world tests of Wi-Fi 6 systems, including mesh here. Speeds of 1.52Gbps appear to be possible if you're within five feet of the access point but if you put a bit more distance or obstacles in the path you'll see less than 1Gbps.
Thank you! That sort of test is what I was looking for, I was going through the Small net builder site's test history, but couldn't find anything useful.

Whether you can use DFS channels or not depends very much on where you're located. I use one at home without any issue but the only time I tried to use 5GHz for a mesh wi-fi link in deepest rural Worcestershire it turned out to be a disaster with constant connection drops. I then discovered the installation was less than ten miles direct line of sight from a Met Office radar installation co-located with a NATS air traffic radar
That must be very frustrating. I'm using 80 MHz DFS channel here without problem, and I live close to an airport, so I guess it depends on the configuration of the radar.

There are no circumstances at the moment in which I'd consider using a wi-fi link between access points when I could be using Ethernet.
I understand, but for some people there is no easy way TO install a cable, but it seems we are NOT close on performance, yet. smile

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User prlzx
(experienced) Tue 05-Jan-21 21:16:08
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
At the moment the only real way to know how well a particular system will work is to buy (or borrow) the kit and try it.
Some decent educated guesses can be made based on specifications and materials.

As per the document shared by caffn8me Ofcom were consulting on reducing the DFS requirements (particularly indoor) and widening the available channels to include 6GHz but to avoid having manufacturers having to release country-specific equipment (such as in USA) UK tends to try to co-ordinate with the rest of Europe.

This will likely remain true (even now) as people will still want to be able to use the same phone on Wi-Fi when they travel.

The exact regulatory rules in effect are applied by the firmware in concert with a user-configurable country-code in the AP as that determines what channel(s) are available.

But manufacturing still needs to design and build radios, antennas and chipset that operate just as well in the new frequencies so agreeing a common min to max operating freq range over wide geographic areas still helps in terms of what models will be sold in what economic areas (similar to what happens with GSM / CDMA versions of the same smartphone now).

And at 80MHz having 12 distinct usable channels instead of a single non-DFS channel would make a difference once it filters through to end-user devices.



prlzx on Zen: FTTC (VDSL) at ~40Mbps / 10Mbps
with IP4/6 (no v6? - not true Internet)

Edited by prlzx (Tue 05-Jan-21 21:46:28)

Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 05-Jan-21 21:19:12
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: prlzx] [link to this post]
 
Thanks, and yes, agreeing with the rest of europe standarised frequency ranges seems eminently sensible (and I believe that relationship started before the 1970s with TV transmissions?). Completely agree rest of your post.

Technology to watch!

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User billford
(elder) Tue 05-Jan-21 21:39:36
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Re: WiFi: Mesh v Multiple APs


[re: prlzx] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by prlzx:
I mean don't get me wrong, I continue to find it remarkable that denser constellations such as 256QAM and 1024QAM work at all, let alone still having usable Wi-Fi throughput at -70dBm (0.000,000,000,1 watts).
For the benefit of any readers who, like me, find it easy to lose track of zeroes that's 100 pico-watts tongue

Bill
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