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Standard User astanden
(member) Fri 05-Feb-21 14:23:08
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IPv6 home netwoek


[link to this post]
 
Hi folks,

I hope you are all safe and well in these difficult times?

I currently have FTTC 80/20 with Zen. As they offer IPv6 I thought I’d investigate a bit more.

Is it worth it?

If I ask Zen to switch me to IPv6, will I need to change anything?

Will all my devices (Tablets, phones, laptops etc) just automatically start using the new protocols? I also have a desktop Mac and a Hp Deskjet printer/scanner directly connected to the Fritzbox router with Ethernet, will they still work ok?

Many thanks

iMac (Retina 4K, 21.5-inch, Late 2015) 3.3 GHz Intel Core i7 16GB Ram 2TB Fusion drive
iPad Air (6th Gen) 32 GB
iPhone 11 128GB
Zen Unlimited Fibre 2 80/20
AVM FRITZ!Box 7530

AOL=>Freeserve=>Zen=>O2=>BT FTTC=>Zen FTTC
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 05-Feb-21 14:29:40
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: astanden] [link to this post]
 
Most of your devices would probably start using it automatically assuming the Zen auto configures the router. But, you won't really see much difference to be honest. There are very few sites only available on IPv6 and chances are you don't visit them - IPv6 becomes useful to the world when most companies/providers start using it by default - but that just hasn't happened yet and there is no concerted effort to make it happen that I can see.
Standard User jpm
(member) Fri 05-Feb-21 14:34:45
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Around a third of total traffic goes over IPv6 - Twitter, Office 365, Facebook, YouTube, Google Workspace, Zoom is all offered on IPv6, and your device will prefer to use IPv6 where it exists.


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Standard User broadband66
(knowledge is power) Fri 05-Feb-21 15:05:15
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: jpm] [link to this post]
 
But it all works perfectly well with IPv4.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk, upgraded to fibre 40/10
Standard User jpm
(member) Fri 05-Feb-21 15:20:44
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
For now. The longer term choice won't be between IPv4 and IPv6, it will be between IPv4 CGNAT and IPv6, at which point I would expect to see things start to break.
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 05-Feb-21 16:16:26
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: jpm] [link to this post]
 
As I said, at the moment people wouldn't even know which is being used. I don't ever check to see whether I am going to a site with ipv4 or ipv6 because I just don't care. One day it will make a difference but it isn't today or likely not in the next 5 years given how many business have done little or nothing to enable ipv6.
Standard User aidanh
(newbie) Fri 05-Feb-21 16:26:54
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Most people shouldn't have to care which is being used. It should be possible to completely turn off ipv4 and for nobody to notice.
Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 05-Feb-21 16:29:33
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: astanden] [link to this post]
 
One problem with IPv6 is that it is quite complicated.

IPv6 is of benefit to IISPs and the like who want to connect large numbers of customers preferably without resorting to CGNAT. It is of little interest to sites such as the BBC who have enough IP sddresses for their own needs and just need others to be able to access them which they can do with IPv4.

Michael Chare
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 05-Feb-21 16:43:13
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: aidanh] [link to this post]
 
At the moment you can just turn off ipv6 and be unlikely to notice. It will be a while before you can turn off ipv4 without having issues - all of the noise about running out of ip address space and much of the industry still finds it easier to muddle through than to switch to ipv6.

A lot of business/government etc would look to spend their money on other things as ipv4 just isn't a big enough issue to force a change and until it gets really painful or hits profits or someone forces it then it just won't happen.
Standard User aidanh
(newbie) Fri 05-Feb-21 17:19:22
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
This is why I said should. You shouldn't have to care whether or not you're using ipv4 or ipv6 but you do have to care because of the amount of broken applications, websites and old hardware that will never be updated. At least on smartphones things should work sanely because the stores mandate that applications have to work in an ipv6 only network with NAT64 enabled to access ipv4-only services. On the PC applications like Steam to this day still don't work with NAT64 because they hardcode ipv4 addresses.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 05-Feb-21 18:55:17
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: astanden] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by astanden:
Is it worth it?
If you only access major websites and don't need to access obscure asian websites (where the IPv4 has run out), then you won't tell a difference.

Zen won't switch you to v6, they provide both v4 and v6 at the same time. Sky and BT's internet service have been doing for a while. Virgin Media, Plusnet and others are still not able to supply.

With a v6 address you could access http://loopsofzen.co.uk/ which is a game only on v6 to show the point. smile

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User E300
(member) Sat 06-Feb-21 10:03:40
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
Personally I wouldn't say IPv6 is complicated, if anything its simpler than IPv4 as it removes any need to get involved with port forwarding, port triggering, NAT or UPnP, ALGs etc to get some devices to work. IPv6 to IPv6 works as the Internet was always intended to work.

In my own network almost 60% of traffic now is by IPv6. It's simplified things for me like SIP phones that no longer have to negotiate NAT and multiple SIP phones work without issue as they all have their own routable IP address.

Currently IPv6 isn't required of course, you can get along with IPv4 just fine, but if it is available, why not use it and be ready for when it might be required?

A few years ago if someone said the analogue phone system was going to be switched off and we will be all VoIP they'd be laughed at, but we are 4 years away from having no landline phones anymore, it will all be VoIP. VoIP has to use various hacks over IPv4 and can be troublesome and unreliable negotiating NAT, and also is practically impossible over CGNAT which more and more ALTNETs and mobile companies have no option but use to enable IPv4, so to facilitate a smoother transition to VoIP for millions of people IPv6 is going to end being a requirement, not an option.
Standard User dect
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 06-Feb-21 12:20:00
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Re: IPv6 home network


[re: E300] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by E300:
I wouldn't say IPv6 is complicated
I wish I could say the same, I've never been able to find a good dummies guide to IPv6
Standard User Vista2003
(newbie) Sat 06-Feb-21 13:26:54
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: astanden] [link to this post]
 
Hi, I've recently switched over to Zen and have asked them to enable IPv6 on my line.
In terms of devices, most already support IPv6 over a decade ago and will automatically obtain IPv6 addresses (iirc, IPv6 could be enabled on Windows XP and was enabled by default in Windows Vista, this is over 14 years ago). Android may have a bit of a problem if the router is using DHCPv6 instead of SLAAC so if you have Android devices, check this in your router settings.

Zen (and most ISP implementations) of IPv6 is in dual-stack which means you'll have both an IPv4 and v6 address assigned to you so even if some devices are missing support for the new protocol, you're unlikely to notice anything.
Standard User prlzx
(experienced) Sat 06-Feb-21 13:39:08
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: astanden] [link to this post]
 
If you are using the Fritzbox is it not already on by default (as dual-stack) ?

When I switched from IDNet the router was sent with an automatic setup, so I just renumbered the LAN IPv4 and populated the DHCP reservations to match my home subnet. And the SSID for Wi-Fi.

I can't remember if I had to email or use the Zen account area to enabling the /48 delegation (for the router to use to number LAN IPv6 subnets).

As regards the IPv6 I don't have to think about which it uses to reach external sites, as I'm connecting by name and DNS takes care of that. I would not see any benefit from disabling access to the part of the Internet where growth is possible by turning off IPv6.

I didn't need to change anything on the client devices as they receive auto configuration from the network.



prlzx on Zen: FTTC (VDSL) at ~40Mbps / 10Mbps
with IP4/6 (no v6? - not true Internet)
Standard User prlzx
(experienced) Sat 06-Feb-21 13:59:44
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: prlzx] [link to this post]
 
I've made this a separate post for reference info on the broader situation

You can read more about the state of the remaining IPv4 space in our region here
https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/ipv4/ipv4-pool

In essence we reached the points where members were limited to a one-time allocation of:
~1000 addresses since Sep 2012 and then
~250 addresses since Oct 2019.
Since Nov 2019 it is now based on allocations being returned to pool for recycling and members can also offer ranges for transfers.

ISPs will continue consume or recycle their own allocations of legacy IP space internally, but ultimately any further growth will require increasing use of IPv6.

Because of the growth in virtualisation and containerisation of servers, it is likely that in future larger proportions of the IPv4 space will end up on servers, until home users only have NATted IPv4 on their router.
IPv4 space is already considered an asset when older companies are dissolved or brought out.

The protocols already exist for an ISP to run pure IPv6 in their distribution network.to the customer router with IPv4 being tunneled (such as NAT64 and DNS64), but mostly transparent as regards outbound connections and replies.

In any case you are likely to see dual stack on the LAN for the forseeable future, as it was always going to be a gradual migration with varying proportions of the parallel stacks.

The Internet Society has links to various statistics tracking adoption.



prlzx on Zen: FTTC (VDSL) at ~40Mbps / 10Mbps
with IP4/6 (no v6? - not true Internet)

Edited by prlzx (Sat 06-Feb-21 14:12:05)

Standard User aidanh
(newbie) Sat 06-Feb-21 14:27:35
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: Vista2003] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vista2003:
Android may have a bit of a problem if the router is using DHCPv6 instead of SLAAC so if you have Android devices, check this in your router settings.


Ideally your router will do both DHCPv6 and SLAAC to have the best compatibility because there are some devices that only support one but not the other and devices that support both won't break (you'll just have an auto-configured address from SLAAC in addition to whatever DHCPv6 assigns). Doing DHCPv6 makes ipv6 purists cry but it will give you less headaches if you do both DHCPv6 and SLAAC.
Standard User prlzx
(experienced) Sat 06-Feb-21 15:12:10
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: Vista2003] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vista2003:
… Android may have a bit of a problem if the router is using DHCPv6 instead of SLAAC so if you have Android devices, check this in your router settings …

Yes, people have expressed frustration with this design choice. However it's not so much "instead of" as "along side";
SLAAC should be working as soon as the router starts advertising the network (prefix) then DHCPv6 can be added with the side benefit of being able to specify a pool range which lends itself to the more compact representations.

Myself, I'm quite partial to a (host interface address) pool range of ::d:1 to ::d:ff
as that easily extends past any reasonable size for any given subnet given you could expand the upper end to ::d:fff (4K) or ::d:ffff (64K) without renumbering.



prlzx on Zen: FTTC (VDSL) at ~40Mbps / 10Mbps
with IP4/6 (no v6? - not true Internet)

Edited by prlzx (Sat 06-Feb-21 23:57:29)

Standard User astanden
(member) Sat 06-Feb-21 16:15:32
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: astanden] [link to this post]
 
Thankyou all for some interesting replies.

So, I guess there’s no real need to switch IPv6 on, but when Imdo, it should ‘just work’.

Thanks again

iMac (Retina 4K, 21.5-inch, Late 2015) 3.3 GHz Intel Core i7 16GB Ram 2TB Fusion drive
iPad Air (6th Gen) 32 GB
iPhone 11 128GB
Zen Unlimited Fibre 2 80/20
AVM FRITZ!Box 7530

AOL=>Freeserve=>Zen=>O2=>BT FTTC=>Zen FTTC
Standard User E300
(member) Sat 06-Feb-21 16:28:32
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Re: IPv6 home network


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
I think the biggest issue with anyone wanting to understand IPv6 is the numbers are so big. IPv6 is 128 bits which is a huge number, and to give it some context, it is suggested that the IPv6 address space is 100 times the number of atoms on the surface of the earth!

However in practical terms the ISP tends to control the first 64 bits, and we (the LAN) get the remaining 64 bits, so those numbers aren't so big. Think of it as a total of 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 subnets for all the ISPs in the world to hand out, with each of those subnets giving the end user the possibility to assign IP addresses to 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 devices. Subnets always have 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 addresses, i.e. they are always 64 bit (or recommended to be), which differs of course to IPv4 which can subnets of various sizes, so IPv6 loses that complexity.

Also as IPv6 has so many addresses then subnets of 256 and 65,536 are routinely given to everyone, although most people will only use one.

So I think personally the complexity comes in with the notations and how they are written, because the numbers are so big they are written in HEX and it's all a bit more complex. If you understand that notation however and bits and powers of 2 its not to hard to see what is happening and it then becomes a lot easier than IPv4 which can have different subnetting etc.
Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Sat 06-Feb-21 16:53:16
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Re: IPv6 home network


[re: E300] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by E300:
So I think personally the complexity comes in with the notations and how they are written, because the numbers are so big they are written in HEX and it's all a bit more complex.


I can remember and type my router's address, 192.168.1.1, easily. How complex would that be under IPv6?
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 06-Feb-21 17:02:34
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Re: IPv6 home network


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Woolwich:
How complex would that be under IPv6?
DNS is the answer.

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User E300
(member) Sat 06-Feb-21 17:28:27
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Re: IPv6 home network


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
You would type into the URL something more complicated, usually you need to surround an IPv6 address in square brackets, so examples might be:

https://[fe80::ac2:7aff:de6e:71ad]/ using the routers local address

or it would have a public IP address, something like

https://[2a02:280:77aa:11a4::1]/

or even something more complicated as those IPs have some zero's removed to shorten them.

But as suggested DNS would be the answer, after all we don't ever need to remember the IP address for websites. It's just a quirk of NAT and IPv4 that there are some addresses that are often used for such devices we know and remember.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 06-Feb-21 17:36:58
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Re: IPv6 home network


[re: E300] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by E300:
It's just a quirk of NAT and IPv4 that there are some addresses that are often used for such devices we know and remember.
and home networking. In corporates we either use DNS, or have to remember the real IP of the network infrastructure devices.

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User prlzx
(experienced) Sat 06-Feb-21 20:49:51
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Re: IPv6 home network


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
Yep to reach my main router I can still go by name as fritz.box or even just gw.
smile
IPv6 tends to show up any historical gaps in having fully populated DNS in IPv4.



prlzx on Zen: FTTC (VDSL) at ~40Mbps / 10Mbps
with IP4/6 (no v6? - not true Internet)
Standard User prlzx
(experienced) Sat 06-Feb-21 21:14:34
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Re: IPv6 home network


[re: E300] [link to this post]
 
Discussions about the IPv6 nearly always have the same initial questions such as
1) use of Hex
2) size of addresses (and reasons)
3) why would everything need to be public

For (1) IPv4 would actually have been more regular for processing and comparing if originally represented in hex,
as all addresses could be stored as exactly 8 digits (with leading 0s).
Subnetting on 4-bit boundaries would look consistent, with sizes of 16 (lab), 256 (normal) or 4K (large) being naturally convenient.

Regarding (2) different sizes were discussed (such as 48*/64/80/96/128).
Realistically you would need a minimum 64-bit space to provide enough of a step in future proofing expansion. Even at 64-bit you would need to continue with variable length network prefix vs host portions of address to provide enough hierarchical networks and route aggregation.

(*) For comparison NAT masquerade is roughly equivalent to stretching IPv4 from 32-bit to a pseudo 40-42 bit address space based on parking 250-1000 hosts behind a single public IP; more than that risks not having a reliable pool of spare ports for new TCP/UDP connections.

The 128 bits are rarely evaluated in one go, more like 16-64 bits at a time for most usage.
The first 2 hex digits (8 bits) are now enough to classify the type of address (multicast, unicast, global, unique local, bogon ….) for a host or router to make some initial decisions on how to treat it.

One could describe the unicast network prefix/host split as scaling of (Class B)⁴.

The host portion being 64-bits was never about having that many hosts in a subnet, but supports enough bits to allow hosts to self-assign addresses on each interface that enables IPv6 (including both MAC address - based and randomised private options).

A key point is that IP addresses are assigned to a host's network interfaces (rather than the host) - this is also true of IPv4 btw but less obviously so when describing computers.
And that these addresses have scope (up to what boundary are they valid) so multiple addresses become normal by design rather than by exception.

Regarding (3) originally all IPv4 addresses would be global, but whether it was public or private would depend on whether the hosts were behind firewalls.
IPv6 restores that - an address being of globally routeable scope does not mean they are all public. If your gateway is a stateful firewall (the default convention for dual stack) the LAN behind it is private as regards inbound connections.

However ULAs (fdxx) also provide equivalent of private scope address space where you don't want the IP to be routeable outside networks you control and the flexibility to assign these alongside (or instead of) the global addresses.
They are commonly used to provide "well-known" addresses for LAN services which then do not depend on any network prefix from by the upstream provider (ISP) and so can be reliably persistent for your internal DNS.



prlzx on Zen: FTTC (VDSL) at ~40Mbps / 10Mbps
with IP4/6 (no v6? - not true Internet)

Edited by prlzx (Sun 07-Feb-21 00:06:11)

Standard User zeb99
(learned) Sat 06-Feb-21 22:14:48
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Re: IPv6 home network


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
Hurricane Electric have an IPv6 Certification project here: https://ipv6.he.net/certification/ which goes through all of the terms. However parts of it do need you to have IPv6 connectivity or the ability to host services on IPv6.

I've had an IPv6 tunnel through he.net for almost eight years. I don't find that it affects performance significantly. This was available long before my ISP supported IPv6. I keep the tunnel as the addresses are provider independent.

he.net allow you to request a /64 and a /48. If I recall correctly, the /48 is 1.2 septillion (2^80) addresses!
Standard User Pheasant
(committed) Sun 07-Feb-21 00:48:51
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
At the moment you can just turn off ipv6 and be unlikely to notice. It will be a while before you can turn off ipv4 without having issues - all of the noise about running out of ip address space and much of the industry still finds it easier to muddle through than to switch to ipv6.

A lot of business/government etc would look to spend their money on other things as ipv4 just isn't a big enough issue to force a change and until it gets really painful or hits profits or someone forces it then it just won't happen.

I agree. The death knell / pinch point / haemorrhage of public IPv4 addresses has been overplayed for years. To get meaningful mass scale adoption of v6 would require v4 to die completely.

Given measures like CGNAT (despite its end user disadvantages) have effectively given a fresh lease of life to v4, it is simply not about to crash in a heap any time soon. Despite the techical advantages of v6, the contemptible familiarity and sheer momentum of v4 will see it chug on I predict for many, many more years yet.

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User iand
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 09-Feb-21 21:16:41
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Re: IPv6 home netwoek


[re: astanden] [link to this post]
 
If zen switch it on for £0 then yes it is worth it. If its more than £0 then no. Websites work with IPV4 and then IPV6 added on top. True IPV6 for all services without IPV4 to your house are still a little bit away. Lots of services still rely on IPV4 to work frown

IanD
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