New home network

I'm looking at moving into a new house and deciding how to build my network, I could go full Unifi, but I want some multi gig for future use.

What's the question exactly....

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

What's the question exactly....

I'm looking for some hardware advice on what I could use?
Firewall/router, switch and access point or 2

Thought about going Unifi but not sure about their firewall, and I'm possibly going to need 2.5Gb.

I would follow the YAGNI principle: by the time you actually need 2.5G you'll be able to get something cheaper and more suitable.

The trouble with 2.5G is knowing how it is going to be presented to you from the future ONT, and how you will distribute it to your downstream devices. The most likely interface types are:

* 10G on an SFP+ port, with either copper direct-attach or fibre SFP+ module
* 10G on RJ45 copper (10GbaseT)
* 2.5G on RJ45 copper (2.5GbaseT)

The device you buy will depend on what both the upstream ISP and the downstream PCs and wireless access points need.

For example: the Mikrotik RB5009UG+S+IN has one SFP+ socket (10G) and one RJ45 port capable of 2.5G. Does this future-proof you? No. Suppose the ONT given by the ISP presents you with 2.5GbaseT, and also your wireless access point needs 2.5GbaseT. You don't have enough compatible ports. So then you'd end up having to buy a separate switch, with a 10G uplink to the router, and the right types of other ports to the other devices.

It has definitely not shaken out what the residential market might settle on when higher speed services are widely provided.

In the data centre space, SFP+ and 10GbaseT are the rule. So there's plenty of kit up there, but most of it is out of the price range for the normal consumer. I've never actually seen a 2.5G copper interface; I believe this standard was created purely to maximise the longevity of standard Cat5e cabling, which cannot handle 10G, primarily to deliver more bandwidth to wireless access points. It's possible the residential market will use this. But don't forget that different ISPs may use different technologies, and you may not know today which altnet(s) will be available to your location either.

So if you want to future-proof, my recommendation would be that if you're installing copper cabling, then choose Cat6 or Cat6A (the former is good for distances of up to 37m, the latter for 100m) instead of Cat5e. But don't try to future-proof your routing or switching hardware. Buy what you need today, and if you need to replace it in 2 or 3 years then do so.

Me: I have Mikrotik RB4011iGS+RM (for business FTTP) and hEX PoE (for home FTTC), and two Unifi AC Lite. I think the latter have now been superceded by Wifi 6 Lite, but since I don't have any Wifi 6 kit yet, I'm not going to be upgrading them for a while.

If you need lots of copper 1G RJ45 ports, then the Netgear GS724Tv4 is a cheap and silent workhorse. It supports SNMP, VLANs, web management *and* a telnet CLI that you can turn on. No serial console though, and no 10G uplink. The smaller GS110TP gives you 8 1G RJ45 ports with PoE out (not PoE+ though), as well as two 1G SFP ports.

Edited by candlerb (Wed 01-Dec-21 11:24:07)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In the data centre space, SFP+ and 10GbaseT are the rule.

Which data centre is that? There are literally hundreds of 10Gbps ports at work and not a single 10GBaseT port in sight.

Datacentres are in my experience exclusively SFP+, to the point where if I where presented with a 10GBase-T device the first port of call would be to change the NIC and if that was not possible there would be lots of cursing and swearing.

In any data centre run by anyone competent will also be exclusively SFP+ for 10Gbps speeds, because it's cheaper to buy, cheaper to run and way more flexible.

A large part of the reason why 10GBase-T has more interoperability issues than consumers are used to is that unlike 1000Base-T where there was a shake down in the data centre market before consumers got their hands on it, no such shake down has happened with 10GBase-T in the data centre because we don't use it and don't want it now or anytime in the future.

For the domestic market just run Cat6a cabling or at a pinch Cat6. You may well not terminate it properly for 10GBase-T but if there is some slack in the cable you can always come back and get it done properly when you actually need 10Gbps speeds if it doesn't work.

Even if the ONT presents as an SFP+ then you could use a suitable SFP+ transceiver noting while most of them are limited to 30m of cable, you can get ones rated for 80m now. That is unlikely to be an issue in a domestic setting unless you live in a mansion.

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

Which data centre is that? There are literally hundreds of 10Gbps ports at work and not a single 10GBaseT port in sight.

And there are other data centres use a mix of SFP+ and 10GbaseT (as in the ones I work at). If this weren't true, then you wouldn't be able to buy 10GbaseT switches from all the major vendors.

I’ve got various switches with embedded 10GBaseT capable ports and they all play nicely with a mixture of different clients NIC at all speeds up to and including 10G, both using PoE and non-POE.

The only ‘limitation’ I have come across is the fact that certain manufacturers will only step their ports from 10G/5G/2.5G/1G down to 100Mbps and will not go lower (i.e no legacy 10 Mbps - and there are still manufacturers of modern/newly minted kit (albeit I’ve noticed mainly in the IOT space) that still push out gear with ‘only’ 10Mbps Ethernet interfaces….

Where I have noticed some incompatibility is when using SFP+ pluggable 10GBaseT modules - I don’t think there’s is the standardisation in high speed copper SFP+ spec and/or there is a compatibly issues with universal 10GBaseT pluggables - at least I’ve seen a lot of 10GBaseT pluggables not work with various SFP+ cages / switches.

So if tending to using 10GBaseT I would prefer embedded switch modules over SFP+ cages and 10GBaseT pluggables.

Just circling back as spotted a couple of new UI switch models which could be of interest...

Ubiquiti have a couple of newish switches that may be of interest:

UniFi Switch Enterprise 8 PoE (USW-Enterprise-8-PoE) which has 8 x 2.5 GbE ports with 802.3at PoE. EuroDK don't have stock currently, but the price is a fairly reasonable £330+VAT

Ubiquiti UniFi Switch Flex XG (USW-Flex-XG) which has 4 x 10 GbE ports and 1 PoE-in GbE port. EuroDK do have stock of this model at around £206+VAT

There's also several other higher port count models on their UI switches page here.

I appreciate you pointing out those switches. I'm just considering building a 1 Gig network for now and if I need higher later then I can upgrade. Trying to keep my budget small.

So considering Unifi or Omada,
Basically looking for a 24 port switch with PoE
2 small 5 or 8 port non PoE switches (PoE powered would be a shout)
Either 1/2 roof APs or 2/3 in wall or a mix.

Then looking for some kind of CCTV system that has IP cameras with Poe probably about 6 of them. Unifi Protect seems too expensive so possibly Reolink?

Generally tend to go for either Netgear, Ubiquiti or MikroTik for switches.

On CCTV all of my cameras now are HIK with a a couple of Reolink PTZs. They have been fine.

MSDistribution https://www.msdist.co.uk/ubiquiti/unifi-routing-swit... have both in stock ... their online price is easily discountable, 15-18% or maybe more.

If you are serious about Ubiquiti then give MSDist a call https://www.msdist.co.uk/ubiquiti/unifi-routing-swit... and get a quote on all yu need. Just ignore the online price. In my experience they are the cheapest overall and being UK based no issues with shipping time or hassle through customs.

Their cameras may sound expensive, but when you feel how well made a G4 ceiling mount is, for example, you will appreciate them. They are also vandal proof.

If you went for a UDM-Pro there is a hard-drive bay for Protect. The UDM-Pro SE has 8 Gb ports with PoE ... which may mean your other switch could be a non-PoE

They have plenty of small switches - PoE powered or conventional

Hey MHC. Haven’t bothered to call the account manager but just logged in with my corp account.

Last few times they couldn’t do much, unless I was ordering 10+. Which to be fair I sometimes do, but not for odds and sods.

How much can they get this for you?

https://www.msdist.co.uk/ubiquiti/unifi-switch/unifi...

I probably buy way less than you ... I would still expect a decent discount on that.

The last Dream Machine Pro was about £280 compared to the online £340

This is what I’m getting… without calling a human being.

As a member of the public

Signed in to my account, with offer price and sliding scale based on spend.

….or I go to euroDK, off the bat it’s £850 ex. No haggling. I pay a bit more in carriage and wait an extra day for it (in theory of this item wasn’t prerelease/not in stock).

Dunno YMMV

Edited by Pheasant (Fri 10-Dec-21 17:03:57)

So around 7% ... ask them next time. I need a couple more cameras soon and when speaking with them will ask!

In reply to a post by MHC:

If you are serious about Ubiquiti then give MSDist a call https://www.msdist.co.uk/ubiquiti/unifi-routing-swit... and get a quote on all yu need. Just ignore the online price. In my experience they are the cheapest overall and being UK based no issues with shipping time or hassle through customs.

Their cameras may sound expensive, but when you feel how well made a G4 ceiling mount is, for example, you will appreciate them. They are also vandal proof.

If you went for a UDM-Pro there is a hard-drive bay for Protect. The UDM-Pro SE has 8 Gb ports with PoE ... which may mean your other switch could be a non-PoE

They have plenty of small switches - PoE powered or conventional

Thank you, I may consider getting in touch closer to the time for pricing.

For switches I'm looking at the 24 port PoE, and the Flex Mini. Not sure what APs yet, considering WiFi 6 lite.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

And there are other data centres use a mix of SFP+ and 10GbaseT (as in the ones I work at). If this weren't true, then you wouldn't be able to buy 10GbaseT switches from all the major vendors.

Interesting. 10GBase-T modules eat power and produce a ton of heat due to how hard the transceivers have to work to get those frequencies down twisted pairs. For short range SFP+ and DACs rule, for anything longer in the DC optical SFPs is usually how they roll.

10GBase-T is expensive to purchase, expensive to run and has limited range. A 5 meter DAC is less than £15 and uses less than half a watt and you're done, 300 meter range MMF optics come in at £15 each side and consume 0.6 watts each. 10GBase-T costs 3-4 times as much each depending on the range you're after and uses 3-5 times as much power.

To each their own. I haven't seen it used much in any scenario. All SFP+/SFP28/QSFP28, DACs for short range, optical longer, and boring gigabit copper ports from top of rack switches to servers. If you scored a good deal on switches with incorporated 10GBase-T ports all power to you guys. Super situational.

For me 10GBase-T has the ease of deployment advantage when you're dealing with temporary facilities and short-term visiting users... think press centre, photographers uploading - full 10G is rare but you see a lot of 2.5G and some 5G in laptops or dongles these days.

Anything permanent-infrastructure or where I can specify both ends is fibre or DAC based due to cost and power consumption.

Not sure why anyone buys from the UK distributors, they're all crazy overpriced compared to just buying from Ubiquiti's EU store directly..?

https://eu.store.ui.com/

In reply to a post by Sparx92:

Not sure why anyone buys from the UK distributors, they're all crazy overpriced compared to just buying from Ubiquiti's EU store directly..?

https://eu.store.ui.com/

Several reasons.

1. UK Distributer prices are, to me, lower than the EU store.
2. Shipping delays and possibly cost
3. Any RMA has to go back to there not UK at cost and potential extra charges
4. Delays through customs
5. Need to purchase an additional power lead

In reply to a post by ft247:

For me 10GBase-T has the ease of deployment advantage when you're dealing with temporary facilities and short-term visiting users... think press centre, photographers uploading - full 10G is rare but you see a lot of 2.5G and some 5G in laptops or dongles these days.

Anything permanent-infrastructure or where I can specify both ends is fibre or DAC based due to cost and power consumption.

Yeah indeed, it’s not all about the DC market. That market doesn’t really drive 10 GbE copper. DC connectivity is all about SFP+, SFP25, QSFP+ etc. it all about a flexible mix of short/medium multi-mode fibre on the cross/connect and/or DACs at the rack level, both of which are ably satisfied by cages.

Back to copper. GbE on copper has been mainstream for nigh on 15 / 20 years. It’s ubiquitous. There is however now very much a growing market and a need to move beyond GbE on copper (outside the DC) and there’s several factors driving this in my view…

1. In the domestic broadband market, mass deployment of GPON is now approaching 10 million premises passed in the UK. The next logical step is to shift a gear and go beyond Gbit connections on the WAN. LAN speeds have to at least match and should comfortably exceed WAN. So for example if VM have > Gbe on their latest Hub 5 CPE then at least a 2.5 GbE network is needed. Community Fibre can provide 3 GbE for around £80/90. That’s actually crazy in the context of price/bandwidth and there’s other countries and providers offering yet higher than that. So next step you need at least 5 GbE. This trend will continue and accelerate.

2. As we get more penetration of WiFi-6 and WiFi-6e and beyond those APs need at least 2.5 GbE if not 5 GbE for the enterprise AP’s on their copper backhaul connections.

3. You mentioned press and media centres, but there are also content creative industries that are needing and wanting more than 1 GbE. Apple already offers a 10 GbE LAN port option on their Mac Mini M1 boxes for £100. Not their top of the line Pro box, but their entry level bare bones box. Anything that sports a USB-C or FireWire 3 or 4 connector has a de facto 10 GbE network capability through that connection (simultaneously with multiple 5K and/or 8K video out and power in)

4. Fibre to the desk - had been a thing since I was designing structured cabling installs in the nineties. But like said on another thread, it’s like fusion…always just around the corner, but never quite happens. Greater than GbE on the desktop / workstation / docked high end laptop will be via copper.