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Standard User fig
(committed) Thu 16-Aug-12 09:27:12
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PN Market 2 charges


[link to this post]
 
Purely by accident I noticed last night that PlusNet changed their monthly charges in July 2011 (Link to PN Price Guide) so that the Market 2 exchanges are charged at the same as the Market 3 exchanges. I've been on a Market 2 exchange since I re-joined PN in June 2010 so now after 2 years I find that for a year I've been overcharged. I've searched the PN forums and it seems the attitude was not to tell everyone but deal with it on a case by case basis if a customer raises an issue, and it also seems like there is no refund for being overcharged. Can anyone confirm this?

I've raised a ticket about it as I'd rather have the £6.50 difference in my pocket, but I'm going to be mightily annoyed if they wont backdate a refund for the 12 months that I've been overcharged. The amount of money is not really the point, it's the attitude of not telling everyone that annoys me.

plusnet 4/11/2003 -> 4/3/2009 512Kb-2Mb
O2 Standard LLU 4/3/2009 -> 23/6/2009 ~3Mb O2 Access 13/7/2009 -> 22/6/2010 ~8Mb
plusnet 22/6/2010 -> ?? ~8MB
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 16-Aug-12 09:32:08
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
Just to make sure, which exchange is it please? LLU there doesn't necessarily mean it is Market 2 these days.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre FTTC 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User fig
(committed) Thu 16-Aug-12 09:37:49
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
LVWTW, it's been Market 2 for longer than I've been connected to it as Virgin Media have a presence, there are no LLU operators on it though.

Ofcom have it listed as Market 2 in 2010 Ofcom Market 2010

EDIT: Sam Knows Link

plusnet 4/11/2003 -> 4/3/2009 512Kb-2Mb
O2 Standard LLU 4/3/2009 -> 23/6/2009 ~3Mb O2 Access 13/7/2009 -> 22/6/2010 ~8Mb
plusnet 22/6/2010 -> ?? ~8MB

Edited by fig (Thu 16-Aug-12 09:41:33)


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Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 16-Aug-12 09:44:19
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
smile
It was worth checking.

There have been a couple of threads about the change, as I picked up at one point that different parts of the website were out of step. But I agree, it's a bit poor not making the change more public to existing customers like yourself.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre FTTC 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 16-Aug-12 09:53:18
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by fig:
it seems the attitude was not to tell everyone but deal with it on a case by case basis if a customer raises an issue, and it also seems like there is no refund for being overcharged.
I'm not surprised. It's quite common. You're being charged under your existing contract. You'd need to take out a new contract to get the new price.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User fig
(committed) Thu 16-Aug-12 09:54:45
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
I'm on the 1 month rolling contract, and in PN's own forums it seems to suggest if you contact them about the price change they will lower the charges.

plusnet 4/11/2003 -> 4/3/2009 512Kb-2Mb
O2 Standard LLU 4/3/2009 -> 23/6/2009 ~3Mb O2 Access 13/7/2009 -> 22/6/2010 ~8Mb
plusnet 22/6/2010 -> ?? ~8MB
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 16-Aug-12 10:19:47
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
The "1 month rolling" refers to the notice period, not the price.
In reply to a post by fig:
in PN's own forums it seems to suggest if you contact them about the price change they will lower the charges.
Which contradicts your original statement "it also seems like there is no refund for being overcharged" confused. Or did you mean they will reduce price from now on, but not backdate it? That sounds like a new contract.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User fig
(committed) Thu 16-Aug-12 10:35:18
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
I took out the option of signing up with no tie-ins so at most a 1 month notice period, so fair point.

However I do think your other point is invalid, as I'm sure that PN would happily put the price up without issuing a new contract if they saw fit, however they have themselves admitted in their forums that they simply didn't bother.

To quote Chris Parr from their forum on 23/7/12
We didn't change existing customers (either direction as there were some exchange that went from Market 2 to Market 1) as it didn't make business sense to do so, if anyone contacted us then we changed the market area but generally we continued charging the price the customer agreed to when they signed up.


And another customer "Gus" in the same thread
Yes you have, since they changed the pricing on market 2 exchanges they have never told us about it. It was a while back when some one posted on usenet that it had changed, day after I told PN my exchange was market 2 and my price dropped by a Fiver on my next bill. But to this day they have never told us the existing customers of the change.


So no new contract is mentioned, merely a drop in the price of the current one which is what I'd expect (but admittedly, not all the information may be in there).

However, my issue is that for 12 months I've been charged more than a new customer would be connecting to the same exchange as me. Even if it was only 10p a month different, it's still not good customer service to just leave it and not tell anyone affected.

plusnet 4/11/2003 -> 4/3/2009 512Kb-2Mb
O2 Standard LLU 4/3/2009 -> 23/6/2009 ~3Mb O2 Access 13/7/2009 -> 22/6/2010 ~8Mb
plusnet 22/6/2010 -> ?? ~8MB
Standard User ukhardy07
(experienced) Thu 16-Aug-12 10:52:21
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
I know what you mean however deals change all of the time.

They can't constantly be changing what you pay
Standard User fig
(committed) Thu 16-Aug-12 11:37:31
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ukhardy07:
I know what you mean however deals change all of the time.

They can't constantly be changing what you pay

I agree, but generally they add new products with new deals. If they change allowances, etc on existing products then it just happens. If the price had to increase for some reason, I'm sure it would go up straight away, but it seems not if it's the other way around.

I'm sure it will all get sorted, I've never had an issue with PN or billing in the past, I was just curious if anyone had actually experienced this and got a refund for previous months of being overcharged where the exchange was Market 2 from the point PN changed their tarrif.

plusnet 4/11/2003 -> 4/3/2009 512Kb-2Mb
O2 Standard LLU 4/3/2009 -> 23/6/2009 ~3Mb O2 Access 13/7/2009 -> 22/6/2010 ~8Mb
plusnet 22/6/2010 -> ?? ~8MB
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 16-Aug-12 11:58:23
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by fig:
Chris Parr:
generally we continued charging the price the customer agreed to when they signed up.
Exactly my point! That's what most ISPs do.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User fig
(committed) Thu 16-Aug-12 12:08:46
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Um, you ignored the bit about them changing it if they contact them, without any mention of a new contract.

plusnet 4/11/2003 -> 4/3/2009 512Kb-2Mb
O2 Standard LLU 4/3/2009 -> 23/6/2009 ~3Mb O2 Access 13/7/2009 -> 22/6/2010 ~8Mb
plusnet 22/6/2010 -> ?? ~8MB
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 16-Aug-12 12:14:38
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
OK, it's not a new contract but a beneficial change to existing contract, as they are entitled to do under the "Changes" clauses. Nevertheless they won't make it retrospective and you had to take the initiative grin

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User fig
(committed) Thu 16-Aug-12 12:22:47
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Get you now smile

Imagine how many thousands of loyal customers could be getting fleeced for this though and will never know? Imagine how livid an existing customer will be if he recommends PN to a neighbour who signs up and gets a better deal than the person who referred yet it's the same package.

plusnet 4/11/2003 -> 4/3/2009 512Kb-2Mb
O2 Standard LLU 4/3/2009 -> 23/6/2009 ~3Mb O2 Access 13/7/2009 -> 22/6/2010 ~8Mb
plusnet 22/6/2010 -> ?? ~8MB
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 16-Aug-12 12:32:30
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
Aye, there's the rub!

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 16-Aug-12 13:17:00
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by fig:
Imagine how livid an existing customer will be if he recommends PN to a neighbour who signs up and gets a better deal than the person who referred yet it's the same package.
... and forgot about the referral scheme.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre FTTC 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User fig
(committed) Thu 16-Aug-12 13:22:32
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by fig:
Imagine how livid an existing customer will be if he recommends PN to a neighbour who signs up and gets a better deal than the person who referred yet it's the same package.
... and forgot about the referral scheme.

LOL, stiffed for £7 a month then, not just £6.50 smile

plusnet 4/11/2003 -> 4/3/2009 512Kb-2Mb
O2 Standard LLU 4/3/2009 -> 23/6/2009 ~3Mb O2 Access 13/7/2009 -> 22/6/2010 ~8Mb
plusnet 22/6/2010 -> ?? ~8MB
Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Thu 16-Aug-12 13:23:00
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
There's another way to look at this. You originally paid the higher amount, and thought the price acceptable. You have since found out that the price can be reduced, so want to take the steps to make it so. Prior to finding out, you didn't feel you were 'being fleeced', as you didn't know the option existed. smile

The best info on the subject is here:

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultati...

(p.17, 3.10)
To date, broadband services in Market 1 are supplied by BT using its 20CN. Services using 20CN have a maximum download speed of 8 Mbit/s .This compares to higher speeds available in Markets 2 and 3 areas where services are supplied using ADSL2+ technology (e.g. using LLU networks or BT’s 21CN), BT’s next generation access ( NGA) deployment or Virgin Media’s cable network. ADSL2+ based services have a maximum speed of up to 24Mbit/s, whilst services provided via BT’s Next Generation Access network offer speeds of up to 40Mbit/s. Virgin Media is rolling out 100Mb/s broadband across its network with services currently offered at up to 50Mbit/s to all its customers. BT has indicated that it will consider investing in rolling out ADSL2+ in Market 1 during the period covered by the charge control, provided that the expected return on its investment is sufficient. This could enable customers in Market 1 to enjoy the higher download speeds already available in Markets 2 and 3.


In other words, Ofcom gave BTw the opportunity to not reduce its prices, and not invest in Market 1 exchanges. BTw will only twitch if other wholesale providers invest in said areas. Why spend money to open up the market to the competition?

Only Plusnet give better Market 1 & 2 prices, as far as I know (owned by BT).

~ Camieabz ~

All Connection Data ~ Some plusnet links

mod'er·a'tion n.
Synonyms: temperance, restraint, modesty.
Standard User fig
(experienced) Thu 16-Aug-12 14:20:01
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
1. You are correct, I'm happy with the price I'm paying, but why should I pay more for exactly the same thing that someone who just changed to PN would pay that's not taking up any kind of special introductory offer? Would you be happy if your neighbour got (for example) the exact same Sky package as you and got it 30% cheaper because Sky didn't bother to reduce your price automatically?
2. (and admittedly off topic slightly now) The irony is (IIRC) that if I was on a Market 1 exchange I'd have more chance of getting a much better BB service in the next year or two as Market 1's are GENERALLY being targetted for upgrades. I'm stuffed because a handful of customers have Virgin making it Market 2 and thus I'll have to wait until Market 2 becomes the new Market 1 smile

Basically I'm £84.50 out of pocket since the changes that were not automatically applied because I have been on a Market 2 exchange, and until my PN ticket is answered, I'll be a further £6.50 a month worse off too. Again, the AMOUNT of money is not the real issue (but I'd like it back), it's the PRINCIPAL that gets me.

plusnet 4/11/2003 -> 4/3/2009 512Kb-2Mb
O2 Standard LLU 4/3/2009 -> 23/6/2009 ~3Mb O2 Access 13/7/2009 -> 22/6/2010 ~8Mb
plusnet 22/6/2010 -> ?? ~8MB
Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Thu 16-Aug-12 14:44:41
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
18 months ago.

In reply to a post by camieabz:
Just to clarify:

In reply to a post by camieabz:
A fiver a month is nothing to most people, but it's not BT's or Plusnet's fiver.


It's a principle issue, as opposed to a finance issue.


smile

~ Camieabz ~

All Connection Data ~ Some plusnet links

mod'er·a'tion n.
Synonyms: temperance, restraint, modesty.
Standard User fig
(experienced) Thu 16-Aug-12 14:54:23
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
laugh

plusnet 4/11/2003 -> 4/3/2009 512Kb-2Mb
O2 Standard LLU 4/3/2009 -> 23/6/2009 ~3Mb O2 Access 13/7/2009 -> 22/6/2010 ~8Mb
plusnet 22/6/2010 -> ?? ~8MB
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 16-Aug-12 14:55:30
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by fig:
If the price had to increase for some reason, I'm sure it would go up straight away, but it seems not if it's the other way around.
Not necessarily! True that an ISP could raise prices under the self-same "Changes" clauses, but they then run the risk of you leaving w/out penalty if the increase is detrimental, usually considered as above the rate of inflation. That, as stated, doesn't make good business sense to do so.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 16-Aug-12 15:38:14
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by camieabz:
Only Plusnet give better Market 1 & 2 prices, as far as I know (owned by BT).
2 & 3 tongue. But I believe you are right about only Plusnet doing it.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre FTTC 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User ian72
(knowledge is power) Thu 16-Aug-12 16:22:58
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by camieabz:
Only Plusnet give better Market 1 & 2 prices, as far as I know (owned by BT).
2 & 3 tongue. But I believe you are right about only Plusnet doing it.


And they would probably get a lot less aggro if they just charged everyone a high price as most of the other ISPs do rather than passing on the lower wholesale costs. Plusnet are currently unique in giving customers the benefit of the BT tiered pricing - but they also get a lot of stick over it.
Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Thu 16-Aug-12 16:47:06
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
And they would probably get a lot less aggro if they just charged everyone a high price as most of the other ISPs do rather than passing on the lower wholesale costs. Plusnet are currently unique in giving customers the benefit of the BT tiered pricing - but they also get a lot of stick over it.


If Market 1 exchanges constitute 11.7% of the country's exchanges, Plusnet are attracting customers from 88.3% of the remainder. Not to mention a share of the Market 1 customers too.

Would I move if Plusnet charged the Market 1 price for Market 2/3 exchanges. It's very possible. I would have to weight the costs of moving, the price of the opposition, the bandwidth package, the referrals lost (less than £2 smile ) and the usual changing ISP factors.

As already mentioned, Ofcom set the pricing, BT set their wholesale prices accordingly, and Plusnet benfit from their unique position. Plusnet customers also benefit. Are Market 1 exchange customers penalised by being with Plusnet, as opposed to being with another ISP? Not as far as I know.

I'm completely for opening up the Market 1 exchanges for reclassification. That way lies better pricing for all but the wholesalers. Don't forget that I was Market 1 two years ago and was lucky enough to have my exchange reclassified to Market 2, and at the time when Market 2 exchanges were re-evaluated as 'low cost areas'.

Frankly, Ofcom can't really pressure BTw to make the Market 1 exchanges more competitive. How many businesses invite competition without legislation? Equally they can't realistically force the price down, due to the wholsale costs of some of the exchanges.

Back in the mid noughties I was more for pricing based on speed and/or bandwidth. Of course the market expanded quickly without this sort of structure, but only in the higher-density areas. Would 25p per Meg of speed and 25p per GB of download be excessive? Perhaps with a minimum package of £5 for 10GB download.

On my old connection I had 6.5 Meg, which would have been £1.75, and I downloaded say 20GB per month, which would be £5, or a total of £4.25 per month over a basic price of £5, so £9.25 per month.

Someone on 1.3 Meg speeds, downloading the same would pay £8pm. Someone on 75 Meg speeds with 250GB of downloads per month would pay £78.75 per month. Expensive, but said person gets almost 60 times the speed, and uses 12.5 times the capacity. Said person is not paying 60 times the price, or even 12.5 times the price.

With a system of price per Meg and per GB, people would cap at their preferred speed and GB, and web design might be slightly more efficient. See how much webpages have grown in the past ten years:

http://www.websiteoptimization.com/speed/tweak/avera...

Anyway, my preferred system of charging is not in place, and millions wouldn't agree, because they already have max speeds and huge download limits, for as little as Market 1 prices in some cases.

~ Camieabz ~

All Connection Data ~ Some plusnet links

mod'er·a'tion n.
Synonyms: temperance, restraint, modesty.
Standard User fig
(experienced) Thu 16-Aug-12 16:59:29
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
Well, PN replied to the ticket with:
Thanks for getting in touch with regards to your broadband cost.

I can confirm that the wholesale cost of broadband has remained the same. The market area classification is set by Ofcom but the market area pricing is set by ourselves. It was Plusnet that are offering the lower prices for Market 2 customers as they were previously billed at Market 1 prices.

We made the lower prices available to new customers and existing customers based upon there request. Other companies still charge higher prices for Market 2 customers. Any customer who makes us aware of a new Market area classification will be immediately changed but no backdating of funds will be applied.

We can advise that your broadband price has now been changed to the market 2 area pricing.

We trust this answers your query in full.


So, price dropped from next billing period, but I'm notifying that I'm on Market 2 and was before July 2011 not of a market area classification change so I've asked about the 12+ months of refund too....

plusnet 4/11/2003 -> 4/3/2009 512Kb-2Mb
O2 Standard LLU 4/3/2009 -> 23/6/2009 ~3Mb O2 Access 13/7/2009 -> 22/6/2010 ~8Mb
plusnet 22/6/2010 -> ?? ~8MB
Standard User flippery
(regular) Thu 16-Aug-12 17:01:04
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
It would be illegal for BT Wholesale to offer a pricing differential to one ISP against another.
It is just that maybe only Plusnet pass this on.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 16-Aug-12 17:06:26
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: flippery] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by flippery:
It would be illegal for BT Wholesale to offer a pricing differential to one ISP against another.
It almost certainly isn't illegal. Quantity discounts and so on are probably still in place. Just that those have to be available to all.
It is just that maybe only Plusnet pass this on.
Precisely.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre FTTC 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Thu 16-Aug-12 17:18:50
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
Interesting stuff smile

Generally it does seem as if the onus is on the customer to find, ask for or renegotiate a better deal in this day and age.

For example, I called up npower today regarding my dual fuel bill for electricity and gas and discovered that by paying a standing change rather than a higher rate for the first number of kWh for both services I could lower my annual costs.

This was of course based on my particular annual consumption where, as a relatively light user, the higher rate units were disproportionate in terms of my total usage - a household where usage is higher would pay a greater proportion of the bill at a lower rate and thus having a standing charge could be more expensive.

The deal was not offered to me automatically, rather like PN not informing existing customers of the lower prices for market 2, it was only by me being proactive that the new deal was offered even though they were fully aware of my circumstances.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 16-Aug-12 17:38:44
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
Good, as expected.
In reply to a post by fig:
Any customer who makes us aware of a new Market area classification will be immediately changed
but it's really not a new Market area classification as such, but a new pricing policy from PN for Market 2 exchanges. So you shouldn't need to make them aware; they already know. It's more a matter of you claiming fair dos.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User Wagstaff
(committed) Thu 16-Aug-12 19:36:02
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 4M2:
Generally it does seem as if the onus is on the customer to find, ask for or renegotiate a better deal in this day and age.

That not only applies to broadband.

I cancelled a contract with an insurer two years ago. I'm now back with the same insurer and paying half what I was paying then for exactly the same contract.

Wagstaff


"To injustice belongs injustice."
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 16-Aug-12 19:42:18
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: Wagstaff] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Wagstaff:
In reply to a post by 4M2:
Generally it does seem as if the onus is on the customer to find, ask for or renegotiate a better deal in this day and age.

That not only applies to broadband.

I cancelled a contract with an insurer two years ago. I'm now back with the same insurer and paying half what I was paying then for exactly the same contract.
You often don't need to leave. For example The AA, and Frizzels/L & V Insurance. Just say you are unhappy, and up comes a lower price for the AA or a "different" policy for the insurance. Aka broadband and mobile phone retention deals.

I find the only thing that makes you have to leave is stuff like Pet Insurance done online. 15% or so introductory discount goes at the end of the year. End of! So then you go for another. Then back, ad infinitum.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre FTTC 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User kasg
(experienced) Thu 16-Aug-12 19:52:41
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
You often don't need to leave. For example The AA, and Frizzels/L & V Insurance. Just say you are unhappy, and up comes a lower price for the AA or a "different" policy for the insurance. Aka broadband and mobile

Yes, I do it every time now, it's worked on every insurance renewal this year, worth trying in shops as well. It used to work with Plusnet, but last time I tried they told me that their price was already so low they couldn't reduce it any further!

Kevin

plusnet Extra 80/20 trial
Using OpenDNS
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Thu 16-Aug-12 20:14:58
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
I find the only thing that makes you have to leave is stuff like Pet Insurance done online. 15% or so introductory discount goes at the end of the year. End of! So then you go for another. Then back, ad infinitum.


Similar thing with my BT line rental Unlimited Evening and Weekend Plan Extra (Discount) retention deal which last year I really had to fight for after the contract was auto-renewed. This year I'll call them up before the end of the contract and establish for certain that the extra retention discount will remain credited to my account because I don't want the hassle of fighting with an overseas call centre for it again...
Standard User professor973
(member) Thu 16-Aug-12 21:12:46
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
If there is no no-claims discount for renewing a policy, it is usually foolish to do so. Just got my contents renewal notice for £64. Went online to the same company, took out identical policy as a new customer for £32, the same as three years ago.
Insurance or broadband, they will jump through hoops to rope you in, then gradually screw you!

Standard User professor973
(member) Thu 16-Aug-12 21:20:09
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
My exchange (Eagle) was unbundled nearly a year ago by TT but is still classified as market one. Poor customer service, along with being fed up with paying £35 per month plus mobile calls for a restricted service, made jumping ship a no brainer.

Standard User professor973
(member) Thu 16-Aug-12 21:21:58
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ukhardy07:
I know what you mean however deals change all of the time.

They can't constantly be changing what you pay

They all find it easy enough when the change is an increase!

Standard User ultra
(experienced) Fri 17-Aug-12 04:19:42
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
But I agree, it's a bit poor not making the change more public to existing customers

Not "a bit poor" but IMO "very poor"

There were comments on here at the time, and perhaps elsewhere, urging PlusNet do the honest thing, and apply the lower charge to to all affected customers.

There was no excuse other than being money grabbing for PlusNet to not let existing customers know. Probably someone in the Finance department said "legally we can continue to charge what had been agreed" and the PN staff had no option but to follow the company line, whereas if there had been a change in the opposite direction, they'd have no choice but to make customers aware they were going to charge them more, and no hesitation on making the change with a hard line of "we informed customers of the change in fee, in advance of applying that change".

It smacks of appalling customer service, and it stinks, because only PN themselves can know exactly how many customers are still paying over the odds. In theory, someone who has referral income could send an unsolicited "warning" e-mail to those whose usernames are listed on their report and could make them aware, but at the same time, not all recipients would be affected, and it would then be junk mail to the majority.

---

If you run a business, have a second ISP and backup web hosting...

1996? Enterprise (IoM 0345) + Clara.net
1998? Clara.net + Freeserve

2000 Freeserve 500kbps (+ Clara dial-up + Clara USENET/Mail)
2002 ? Eclipse 500 kbps + FS
2003 ? UKFSN 1000 kbps + Eclipse
2005 ? PlusNet 8 Mbps+ Eclipse
moved home - used office BB
2008 Three dongle at home
2010 PlusNet 2 Mbps + Three dongle
2012 PN 10 Mbps + Three (ZTE 802.11 router) + Three mobile (802.11 hotspot)
2013 PN 30? Mbps + VM 30+? Mbps + Three mobile
Standard User ian72
(knowledge is power) Fri 17-Aug-12 08:07:48
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
Frankly, Ofcom can't really pressure BTw to make the Market 1 exchanges more competitive. How many businesses invite competition without legislation? Equally they can't realistically force the price down, due to the wholsale costs of some of the exchanges.


Hmm, I think (but I may be wrong) you have some of this the wrong way round. Ofcom set the prices on the Market 1 exchanges at a higher level in order to encourage LLU and other providers to come and provide alternatives. If BT set them at a lower price then LLU would be deemed as unable to compete.

Once there are LLU providers on the exchange then Ofcom make it market 2/3 and then stop regulating the prices. At that point BT choose to charge lower prices on those exchanges but the pricing is entirely down to BT.

Therefore at Market 1 it is Ofcom forcing BT to charge higher wholesale prices. At market 2/3 it is BT's choice to charge lower prices.

I want to be clear that I wasn't having a go at Plusnet. They pass on the lower charges where no-one else does - but that means the market 1 customers always complain about it being unfair and they complain to Plusnet - whereas the "guilty" party is actually Ofcom.
Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Fri 17-Aug-12 08:24:32
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
Hmm, I think (but I may be wrong) you have some of this the wrong way round. Ofcom set the prices on the Market 1 exchanges at a higher level in order to encourage LLU and other providers to come and provide alternatives. If BT set them at a lower price then LLU would be deemed as unable to compete.

Once there are LLU providers on the exchange then Ofcom make it market 2/3 and then stop regulating the prices. At that point BT choose to charge lower prices on those exchanges but the pricing is entirely down to BT.

Therefore at Market 1 it is Ofcom forcing BT to charge higher wholesale prices. At market 2/3 it is BT's choice to charge lower prices.


Appreciated. Maybe I did word it wrongly. The fact is that BT will not invest in areas with 'just BT'. There's more return in providing wholesale FTTx in areas of high density. Unless the punters can somehow attract an LLU presence to their exchange, there's little hope of market reclassification (which seems to be a occasional thing anyway).

~ Camieabz ~

All Connection Data ~ Some plusnet links

mod'er·a'tion n.
Synonyms: temperance, restraint, modesty.
Standard User ian72
(knowledge is power) Fri 17-Aug-12 09:33:50
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
There's more return in providing wholesale FTTx in areas of high density. Unless the punters can somehow attract an LLU presence to their exchange, there's little hope of market reclassification (which seems to be a occasional thing anyway).


True but possibly not cause and effect. LLU suppliers not going to an exchange is likely because it is not economically viable. And probably therefore not economically viable for FTTx. If any exchange is viable for LLU then it is more likely viable for FTTx. So, they are both in exchanges for the same reason rather than FTTx being there because LLU is.

And the market classification is again an Ofcom invention rather than BT. I'm sure BT would structure things differently if they had any control over it - but they don't. It's not as if BT are even in a position to encourage LLU providers in - that is entirely in the LLU providers remit.

BT are not perfect but I don't believe this is at their door.
Standard User flippery
(regular) Fri 17-Aug-12 09:52:25
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
Are not BT investing in Market 1 exchanges by upgrading to CN21. Has made tremendous difference to me in doubling Up and Down speeds
The whole thread is moving away from the OP question.
Whilst Plusnet have not handled it welll, at least they have given the savings to new customers. Unlike any other ISP that I am aware of.

Edited by flippery (Fri 17-Aug-12 09:53:30)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 17-Aug-12 10:12:05
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: ultra] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ultra:
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
But I agree, it's a bit poor not making the change more public to existing customers
Not "a bit poor" but IMO "very poor"
smile
Methinks the subtleties of the English language elude you tongue. The rest of the detail in your post was inherent in my usage of "a bit".

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre FTTC 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User flippery
(regular) Fri 17-Aug-12 10:29:08
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by ultra:
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
But I agree, it's a bit poor not making the change more public to existing customers
Not "a bit poor" but IMO "very poor"
smile
Methinks the subtleties of the English language elude you tongue. The rest of the detail in your post was inherent in my usage of "a bit".

If I wanted an English lesson, then I would go to college. This is not the place to critisise the way others correspond.
Should it have read
Was Incoherent in your usage of "a bit"

Edited by flippery (Fri 17-Aug-12 10:44:46)

Standard User fig
(experienced) Fri 17-Aug-12 11:05:05
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Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
To quote their own T&C's:
Changing these Terms (notification)

Sometimes, we will need to change the charges and the Terms and Conditions of the service. We will publish details of all changes online at http://www.plus.net.
We will also let you know about a price increase or a change to the Terms and Conditions that we believe is likely to cause you material disadvantage at least one month before it happens. We will let you know about other price changes and changes to the Terms and Conditions via email to the contact email address on the account and by adding a service note to your account. Account Service Notes can be viewed at http://contactus.plus.net/
For changes we need to make to meet legal and regulatory requirements, we may not be able to meet the timescale detailed in paragraph 44. We will let you know about these changes as soon as we can.
If we have made a change which is to your material disadvantage, you will not have to pay a charge (excludes any charges or payments we have deferred) if you decide to end your agreement early, unless the price guide says otherwise. However, once we have told you about such a change, you must let us know that you want to end the agreement within 10 days.


The sentence I'm interested in is We will let you know about other price changes and changes to the Terms and Conditions via email to the contact email address on the account and by adding a service note to your account..

I agree this can be read in several ways, however to me that would imply that any changes to the price, up or down, will be communicated out by email as the previous sentence specifically states that if there is a price increase or a change to T&C's then this would be communicated out at least one month prior, so the following sentence should be a catch all for anything not related to a price increase or change in T&C's.

Now, they HAVEN'T contacted me or anyone else about this price decrease to our service because they clearly want to keep the money for themselves so you could argue they didn't have to tell me about a price decrease because they didn't change MY account, however they have changed the SERVICE I get to a lower price and surely that constitutes an email about a price change?

Again, it's not the amount, it's the principal smile

plusnet 4/11/2003 -> 4/3/2009 512Kb-2Mb
O2 Standard LLU 4/3/2009 -> 23/6/2009 ~3Mb O2 Access 13/7/2009 -> 22/6/2010 ~8Mb
plusnet 22/6/2010 -> ?? ~8MB
Standard User professor973
(member) Fri 17-Aug-12 11:39:36
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: flippery] [link to this post]
 
This is not the place to critisise the way others correspond.

It will take stronger words than that to stop it, as it is all that drives many here to get out of bed!

Standard User therioman
(knowledge is power) Fri 17-Aug-12 11:51:13
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
Haha, yes I recently became aware of this too - I complained and the price has now been reduced, but PlusNet seem to imply that they couldn't possibly have changed this automatically because Ofcom change the statuses - ignoring that they could blatantly have written a script. Fortunately I only have one line with them for some tedious historical reasons.

I guess like everything else, this is a classic Plusnet we're not changing stuff in your favour unless you notice since the majority won't and we'll profit from that...

...I bet they make sure they get the discount on the wholesale side automatically smile

They've not refunded me for the period it changed though...

It does leave a bit of a sour taste and make you feel a bit like you've been overcharged whatever other logic you might apply to it.
Standard User ian72
(knowledge is power) Fri 17-Aug-12 11:52:20
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Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
You may be right but I could play devil's advocate and say that the price of the product you are on has not changed. What has changed is the definition of who can get the lower of the 2 prices for the product - however, it does not state you would automatically be informed of a move between the tiers or a definition change of who those tiers apply to.

Edited by ian72 (Fri 17-Aug-12 11:58:23)

Standard User professor973
(member) Fri 17-Aug-12 11:55:09
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: therioman] [link to this post]
 
It's a wonder it does not cause those irritating "Honest Broadband" ads to be banned.

ISP Representative chrisparr
(isp) Fri 17-Aug-12 11:58:56
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
Why? We haven't lied, nor been dishonest here. The price advertised on our website at the point of signup is the price the customer paid.

Chris Parr
Plusnet Support Team
Service Status :: RSS :: Email
The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
ISP Representative chrisparr
(isp) Fri 17-Aug-12 12:00:20
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Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
It's also worth noting that last time the Market classifications changed there were some exchanges (admittedly a lower number) that switched the other way from Market 2 to 1, in these instances we didn't increase the price for existing customers in those areas.

Chris Parr
Plusnet Support Team
Service Status :: RSS :: Email
The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
ISP Representative chrisparr
(isp) Fri 17-Aug-12 12:01:27
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
Hi fig,

Whilst I understand the annoyance here, we stand by the process we're using which is that we'll only change the price if the customer contacts us or changes account type.

Chris Parr
Plusnet Support Team
Service Status :: RSS :: Email
The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User professor973
(member) Fri 17-Aug-12 12:14:20
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: chrisparr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by chrisparr:
Why? We haven't lied, nor been dishonest here. The price advertised on our website at the point of signup is the price the customer paid.

Quite possibly, but the fact remains that PN will screw what they can from standing customers if they can get away with it contractually, while offering better contracts to new ones. I therefore don't see that that makes PN any better than the rest of the rogues despite the silly ads.
Everything PN is out of date or in a muddle. Nonetheless, that does not stop you in your post above "Standing by" a system that you understand upsets customers. There seems to be a 'We know it's a muddle, but we prefer to keep it that way' mindset about Plusnet, which in my book is not forward thinking, honest or good for the future of a company.

Edited by professor973 (Fri 17-Aug-12 12:15:38)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 17-Aug-12 12:16:03
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Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
The T&Cs refer to your individual contract with PN. If they don't intend to change your terms they don't need to write to you.

Your terms are as they were when you signed up, changed by any notifications sent to you subsequently as per that quoted clause. They are not necessarily the same as the current published T&Cs applicable to new customers.

When you phone up asking for a change such as this and they agree it, then your terms are changed (at your initiative) as at that conversation.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User fig
(experienced) Fri 17-Aug-12 12:26:33
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Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: chrisparr] [link to this post]
 
Which is very commendable, however that has been offset by those who've gone from 1 to 2 and you've not reduced the price for them, or those that were on Market 2 before July 2011 (like myself) and you've not reduced my price.

It's difficult to justify not increasing the price for a few when you have not reduced the price for a lot more I'd say.

Don't get me wrong, I think PN are great as an ISP, but this I have to say, sucks b****s as far as existing customers go. I put something similar in another post, if you were subscribed to (for example) Sky for £30 a month and your neighbour signed up for £20 a month to exactly the same thing because Sky reduced the prices 12 months ago and didn't tell you, would YOU be happy? Would you then want a £10 a month reduction and your money back since the price changed?

I know I'm putting you on the spot with that, and you probably wont answer, my guess is you will agree, but as a PN rep you will have to disagree or not answer. smile

plusnet 4/11/2003 -> 4/3/2009 512Kb-2Mb
O2 Standard LLU 4/3/2009 -> 23/6/2009 ~3Mb O2 Access 13/7/2009 -> 22/6/2010 ~8Mb
plusnet 22/6/2010 -> ?? ~8MB

Edited by fig (Fri 17-Aug-12 12:29:30)

ISP Representative chrisparr
(isp) Fri 17-Aug-12 12:44:31
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
No, I do actually agree with you! Unfortunately that agreement doesn't change the fact that a decision has been made and we will change the price if contacted.

If you PM me your username I'm happy to see if there's anything we can do on an individual basis though.

Chris Parr
Plusnet Support Team
Service Status :: RSS :: Email
The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User ian72
(knowledge is power) Fri 17-Aug-12 13:23:32
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Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: chrisparr] [link to this post]
 
I think much of this still comes down to the strange business practices of Plusnet:

1) Offer different rates for Market 1 and Market 2/3 exchanges. No-one else does and therefore no-one else gets the stick for it.

2) Having one product with 2 different prices. If the Market 1 product was a different one to the 2/3 products then there would be no problem. People would have to choose to change products

3) Reducing prices of products. The Sky example above just would never happen as Sky wouldn't dream of reducing prices.

4) Reducing prices of products (again). Every other company would just release a new product (like my electricity supplier, they bring out a new tarriff rather than reduced the cost of the old one).

5) Talking to customers. Most other companies wouldn't dream of responding to their customers on an open forum, especially not when it was bad news. Far better to ask them to ring/email/twitter the company and therefore get the conversation off of a public forum.

So, if Plusnet would just act like every other company in these matters then we would see far fewer of these posts. But, to me Plusnet is actually a little more honest then most of those others (I would say though that there are some very very good companies out there that get most of it right).
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Fri 17-Aug-12 14:22:32
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Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: chrisparr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by chrisparr:
...a decision has been made and we will change the price if contacted.


All PN market 2 broadband customers (and I was one of them) should have, at the very least, been informed that they were now in a "low cost area". If a mechanism was not in place to automatically reduce the cost of broadband then a message from PN to all of it's market 2 customers to make contact, either by phone or ticket, in order to adjust to the new pricing may have been a better policy.

Obviously that would have increased your workload considerably but the fact that many existing customers were unaware that their market 2 exchange was now in a "low cost area" and that they were eligible for a lower price, since they were not contacted personally, does perhaps appear to be rather underhand.
Moderator Sadoldman
(moderator) Fri 17-Aug-12 14:33:26
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Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
The bottom line for me is...no ISP is your friend. They are a business pure and simple.and carry it out in a manner that they think benefits them. Plusnet offer these reductions on Market 2&3 whilst no other ISP does because they feel it makes business sense to them.

One of the purposes of this BBS is to assist individuals behave in the same manner. Whilst it is galling to find out that you can get a reduction on your contracted price, as long as you ask, in many ways it is not far different from the discounts, "if you ask" that Sky can offer to keep your custom...it is not about being fair...it is about running a business.

There are always special deals/discount codes/new customer only promotions, and the bottom line for me is that you look at what you pay, (regardless of anyone else having a better deal) and if it is competitive and value for money and it meets your needs, than it is as good as it gets. If the current ISP is that and you find you can have it even cheaper...then the glass is half full I reckon.smile

If it is not those things in the first place, find an ISP that does match up.

Sadoldman

Just a tad sad..a wee bit old...wink

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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Fri 17-Aug-12 14:51:25
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: Sadoldman] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Sadoldman:
..Whilst it is galling to find out that you can get a reduction on your contracted price...


The point is it's galling to find that one could have got a reduction in the contracted price. If one is just a few months into a one year contract then shopping around for another deal, or checking that the current contracted deal can be changed for a lower price with the same supplier, may not always be uppermost in peoples' thoughts.
Standard User ian72
(knowledge is power) Fri 17-Aug-12 15:15:27
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: Sadoldman] [link to this post]
 
My post was a somewhat ironic way to say similar to yours. Plusnet are more open than many ISPs and offer ways of providing service that many don't. And yet they get beaten up over it consistenly whereas other ISPs that don't offer it in the first place never get questioned.

So, where are all the questions of the rest of the ISPs for why they don't pass on wholesale savings for market 2/3. Very seldom does this get raised as far as I have seen. And yet Plusnet then get consisently vilified for not automatically moving people between the prices that no-one else offers in the first place.

Plusnet are by no means perfect. In fact I wouldn't even say they are one of the best I've dealt with. But, for the products they offer and the prices they offer them at they are not half bad. Value for money wise I have no issue with Plusnet.
Standard User fig
(experienced) Fri 17-Aug-12 15:35:45
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Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
I agree with you entirely, but I think PN have made a rod for their own back by being so good ironically. As you mentioned previously, it would have been better to rename the product rather than offer the same one at a lower price.

I've just had a follow up support query as follows:
Plusnet have a Market base of over half a million customers. We are not made aware when a customers market change takes place so billing will continue as usual.

As per my colleagues response it was Plusnet who decided to offer new Market 2 customers the reduction in price. Any existing customers who made us aware that they were in a Market 2 area had their prices changed.

As you have notified us we have changed your price on going.

We can not offer a refund in this situation. We have broken no Ofcom regulations as they set the Market area and we changed the price.


Looking at the Ofcom 2010 report, there were just under 12% of BT Exchanges classified as Market 2, now this will have changed since then, but as my exchange was on that list in 2010 I'll go with 12%. PN say over 500,000 subscribers, so 12% of 500,000 is 60,000 which equates to £390,000 PER MONTH extra gained by PN by not lowering costs for people who SHOULD have it lowered.

OK, they have not broken any Ofcom rules, but, they are a good ISP in my book (I've been with them for 8 years in total) but this is simply dishonest.

I've had no reason to check if there was a change in my price because I TRUSTED PN to let me know if there was a change either way. I'm limited to my choice because it's Market 2 (BT + Virgin Media who don't venture into new estates) so I HAVE been checking to see if anything is happening on my exchange, but not if PN prices have changed because they haven't changed their products (i.e. the point made earlier).

It's pure chance I stumbled upon the price change that happened 13 months ago, and it annoys me that the trust I had in PN has been abused because of (what appears to be) greed and laziness.

I applaud them for reducing the price when they didn't have to, I am very disappointed that they have left their existing (dare I say it loyal) customers to pay 30% more than new customers. I don't dispute any of the praise of PN for what they are doing, however I'm sure you'd see it a different way if it actually affected you personally as it does me. Even a PN rep has admitted that he would personally not be happy, however it's an accountant somewhere that's made this decision.

Personally, I'm happy that I've got a great service at a lower cost, I'm extremely unhappy I could have had this cost reduction 13 months ago if I'd kept an eye on PN, but again, I TRUSTED them.

Is it good financially for PN to reduce their costs and tell their customers, not immediately no, but the PR in doing so then generates a lot of goodwill and likely further referrals. Now the PR will be negative and PN will look like crooks and it's not good for business is it, especially in these economic times.

What could they do now, fess up immediately, admit it's a mistake, tell everyone, give everyone a refund of overpaid charges by folding it into the next 12 months payments thus ensuring 12 months more loyalty from said customer.

Maybe I'm overreacting to this lot, but I do feel let down by a company I've trusted and recommended time and time again verbally (yup, even lost out on some referrals there). And to stress again, it's not the amount of money I have been overcharged (in my view) it's the blatant dishonesty and brushing it under the carpet I'm upset with. I'm sorely tempted to contact the likes of Watchdog or the ISPA who recently gave PN an award however I'll see what PN do with my ticket....

plusnet 4/11/2003 -> 4/3/2009 512Kb-2Mb
O2 Standard LLU 4/3/2009 -> 23/6/2009 ~3Mb O2 Access 13/7/2009 -> 22/6/2010 ~8Mb
plusnet 22/6/2010 -> ?? ~8MB
Standard User ian72
(knowledge is power) Fri 17-Aug-12 15:46:29
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Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
What could they do now, fess up immediately, admit it's a mistake, tell everyone, give everyone a refund of overpaid charges by folding it into the next 12 months payments thus ensuring 12 months more loyalty from said customer.


I'm afraid they won't change. That same question has been raised about various price changes in the past with Plusnet and they have always maintained the same position - I suspect it will continue to be the case.

Just one thing. The 12% of exchange as Market 2 almost certainly does not equate to 12% of customers. The reason I say this is the the vast majority of large exchanges are market 3. Therefore, the market 1 and 2 exchanges are likely to be at the smaller end of the scale so 12% of exchange could, for example, be 1% of customers (of course I have done no analysis to confirm this). It is the usual thing that a relatively small number of exchanges cover a relatively high percentage of the population.
Standard User fig
(experienced) Fri 17-Aug-12 15:49:11
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
Just one thing. The 12% of exchange as Market 2 almost certainly does not equate to 12% of customers. The reason I say this is the the vast majority of large exchanges are market 3. Therefore, the market 1 and 2 exchanges are likely to be at the smaller end of the scale so 12% of exchange could, for example, be 1% of customers (of course I have done no analysis to confirm this). It is the usual thing that a relatively small number of exchanges cover a relatively high percentage of the population.

Sorry, I didn't make it clear enough in my explanation, it was just rough figures as it's impossible for me to know the distribution. I had put something about bad maths and took it out to replace it with something else but didn't, oops crazy

plusnet 4/11/2003 -> 4/3/2009 512Kb-2Mb
O2 Standard LLU 4/3/2009 -> 23/6/2009 ~3Mb O2 Access 13/7/2009 -> 22/6/2010 ~8Mb
plusnet 22/6/2010 -> ?? ~8MB
Standard User ian72
(knowledge is power) Fri 17-Aug-12 15:57:32
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
No need to apologise wink

It's just your figures for their profit on this are almost certainly much higher than the actual figures.
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Fri 17-Aug-12 17:16:52
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Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 4M2:
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
I find the only thing that makes you have to leave is stuff like Pet Insurance done online. 15% or so introductory discount goes at the end of the year. End of! So then you go for another. Then back, ad infinitum.


Similar thing with my BT line rental Unlimited Evening and Weekend Plan Extra (Discount) retention deal which last year I really had to fight for after the contract was auto-renewed. This year I'll call them up before the end of the contract and establish for certain that the extra retention discount will remain credited to my account because I don't want the hassle of fighting with an overseas call centre for it again...


Just negotiated my BT landline contract renewal and have managed to get a £6.15 per month (£3.15 + £3 "special" retention discount) off my Unlimited Evening and Weekend Plan.

BTW. the negotiation was done with a British call centre smile
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 17-Aug-12 21:23:00
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 4M2:
Just negotiated my BT landline contract renewal and have managed to get a £6.15 per month (£3.15 + £3 "special" retention discount) off my Unlimited Evening and Weekend Plan.

BTW. the negotiation was done with a British call centre smile
Something I must look into there smile. A couple of months ago I was borderline on changing from BT E & W to Anytime as it would have been cheaper overall, then checked the calls in the first fortnight of the month and only two were chargeable!!! So it went on the back burner for a couple of weeks and then got forgotten. So either a cheaper E & W or even a cheaper Anytime is worth looking into.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre FTTC 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Fri 17-Aug-12 21:47:26
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Something I must look into there smile. A couple of months ago I was borderline on changing from BT E & W to Anytime as it would have been cheaper overall, then checked the calls in the first fortnight of the month and only two were chargeable!!! So it went on the back burner for a couple of weeks and then got forgotten. So either a cheaper E & W or even a cheaper Anytime is worth looking into.


As you know an up front payment of £129 (£10.75 – a month equivalent) for line rental would be an even better deal if one spent less than £3.15 on calls per month. I will get free evening and weekend for £11.60 per month but that includes my "special" £3 retention discount having been a long term BT customer...

Edit: will still get caller display for nout also smile

Edited by 4M2 (Fri 17-Aug-12 21:53:38)

Standard User Wagstaff
(committed) Fri 17-Aug-12 22:38:37
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 4M2:
BTW. the negotiation was done with a British call centre smile


Since when have BT started using a British Call Centre?

Wagstaff


"To injustice belongs injustice."
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 17-Aug-12 22:43:57
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: Wagstaff] [link to this post]
 
BT's Customer Options Team (COT) is in UK; Rotherham I think.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Fri 17-Aug-12 23:59:47
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: Wagstaff] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Wagstaff:
Since when have BT started using a British Call Centre?


Sometimes on weekdays during office hours if you're lucky smile
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Sat 18-Aug-12 00:05:19
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
BT's Customer Options Team (COT) is in UK; Rotherham I think.


Could well be - sounded like a Durham/Northumberland accent to me though, but that of course doesn't mean much smile
Standard User ultra
(experienced) Sat 18-Aug-12 22:40:03
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: chrisparr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by chrisparr:
Whilst I understand the annoyance here, we stand by the process we're using which is that we'll only change the price if the customer contacts us or changes account type.

Then PlusNet doesn't deserve the rankings it has received for good Customer Service if that's the attitude (required, perhaps, by the Financial section, rather than the choice of customer-facing staff).

It's the sort of admission that needs reporting to Which? and brought up next time there are any awards being handed out. Bear it in mind that some of us could well do so. Not a criticism of you, personally, but of the policy adopted by PlusNet on this matter, and definitely detrimental to a subset of customers (though it would need someone inside PN to know what the numbers affected are).

---

If you run a business, have a second ISP and backup web hosting...

1996? Enterprise (IoM 0345) + Clara.net
1998? Clara.net + Freeserve

2000 Freeserve 500kbps (+ Clara dial-up + Clara USENET/Mail)
2002 ? Eclipse 500 kbps + FS
2003 ? UKFSN 1000 kbps + Eclipse
2005 ? PlusNet 8 Mbps+ Eclipse
moved home - used office BB
2008 Three dongle at home
2010 PlusNet 2 Mbps + Three dongle
2012 PN 10 Mbps + Three (ZTE 802.11 router) + Three mobile (802.11 hotspot)
2013 PN 30? Mbps + VM 30+? Mbps + Three mobile
Standard User ultra
(experienced) Sat 18-Aug-12 22:45:10
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
2) Having one product with 2 different prices. If the Market 1 product was a different one to the 2/3 products then there would be no problem. People would have to choose to change products

Idea falls apart if the customer doesn't know the exchange classification (at PN) has changed, and their product option has changed, as PN didn't have the decency to tell them about any change happening, and therefore the customer is still left in the dark, and fed on .....

---

If you run a business, have a second ISP and backup web hosting...

1996? Enterprise (IoM 0345) + Clara.net
1998? Clara.net + Freeserve

2000 Freeserve 500kbps (+ Clara dial-up + Clara USENET/Mail)
2002 ? Eclipse 500 kbps + FS
2003 ? UKFSN 1000 kbps + Eclipse
2005 ? PlusNet 8 Mbps+ Eclipse
moved home - used office BB
2008 Three dongle at home
2010 PlusNet 2 Mbps + Three dongle
2012 PN 10 Mbps + Three (ZTE 802.11 router) + Three mobile (802.11 hotspot)
2013 PN 30? Mbps + VM 30+? Mbps + Three mobile
Standard User Oliver341
(knowledge is power) Sat 18-Aug-12 22:54:03
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: ultra] [link to this post]
 
I agree, I think an ISP who touts their "good, honest" credentials should do things like tell their customers when the price of their product falls. Accepted, it's not dishonest as such, just "economical with the truth".

Oliver.
Standard User Wagstaff
(committed) Sun 19-Aug-12 00:48:35
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: Oliver341] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Oliver341:
Accepted, it's not dishonest as such, just "economical with the truth".

We've been over this again and again on other threads in this forum. The fact that the OP hasn't picked up the message until recently is not Plusnet's fault.

Wagstaff


"To injustice belongs injustice."
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 19-Aug-12 03:08:15
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: Wagstaff] [link to this post]
 
What message? The whole point is that he was never informed.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 19-Aug-12 08:57:30
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: Wagstaff] [link to this post]
 
Errrrrm?

Do you consider it incumbent on the over 600,000 Plusnet customers to keep track of one or more public forums in order to find out about beneficial changes to their product?

Anybody who comes here or goes to the community forum for anything other than help with a one-off problem is bordering on internet geek, with a very small proportion of these regularly active on them.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre FTTC 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Wagstaff
(committed) Sun 19-Aug-12 11:43:17
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
What message? The whole point is that he was never informed.

The "message" was contained in previous threads.

You and other posters provide a lot of useful advice and information on these forums. If people choose to ignore this, then that's up to them - I don't think it should deter you, or anyone else, from continuing to provide help.

Wagstaff


"To injustice belongs injustice."
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 19-Aug-12 14:07:52
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: Wagstaff] [link to this post]
 
OP never ignored anything. I believe we provided opinion on this practice but the OP had already taken steps on getting his future bills reduced and his method of doing so was confirmed here formally by his ISP Rep.

I don't think you have read this thread thoroughly.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sun 19-Aug-12 14:09:04)

Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Sun 19-Aug-12 15:59:00
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Do you consider it incumbent on the over 600,000 Plusnet customers to keep track of one or more public forums in order to find out about beneficial changes to their product?


Might be (or might have been) possible to check one's exchange status, i.e. "low cost area" - market 2, from the PN web site also? An existing PN user would of course need to be made aware of the lower pricing policy for market 2 by Plusnet in order to consider checking that they are now in a "low cost area" and thus claim the lower price.

Problem is Plusnet didn't/doesn't inform existing users directly of that change in pricing and, as you say, they have to discover it by other means. The price change should be done automatically by PN for Market 2 users without a doubt!

Edited by 4M2 (Sun 19-Aug-12 16:02:04)

Standard User Oliver341
(knowledge is power) Sun 19-Aug-12 21:02:46
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Those silly Plusnet users for not checking Ofcom's market classifications on a daily basis eh? wink

Oliver.

Edited by Oliver341 (Sun 19-Aug-12 21:03:11)

Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Sun 19-Aug-12 21:24:14
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: Oliver341] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Oliver341:
Those silly Plusnet users for not checking Ofcom's market classifications on a daily basis eh? wink


I was one of them, but fortunately soon after they introduced the new pricing policy I changed my package ("pro" to "extra" + "pro" add-on I think) and was given a low price. However I was unaware, at the time, that the lower price was due to me being in a "low cost area" nor was that mentioned by PN when I requested the change. It was only when I read about the new pricing for Market 2 exchanges in this forum that I realised why had been given a low price for my new package.

Possibly if I had not changed my package, read about the pricing change here, or stayed with PN I would still be paying the higher amount now shocked
Standard User ultra
(experienced) Tue 21-Aug-12 13:20:03
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 4M2:
... I would still be paying the higher amount now shocked

Indeed, you would, and be shocked, and rightly so, because of this absolutely rotten handling.

Unfortunately however much we complain in here or elsewhere, PN staff have been given their instructions and I doubt there'd be anyone willing to leave the firm for 'leaking' the info to potentially several thousand customers...

---

If you run a business, have a second ISP and backup web hosting...

1996? Enterprise (IoM 0345) + Clara.net
1998? Clara.net + Freeserve

2000 Freeserve 500kbps (+ Clara dial-up + Clara USENET/Mail)
2002 ? Eclipse 500 kbps + FS
2003 ? UKFSN 1000 kbps + Eclipse
2005 ? PlusNet 8 Mbps+ Eclipse
moved home - used office BB
2008 Three dongle at home
2010 PlusNet 2 Mbps + Three dongle
2012 PN 10 Mbps + Three (ZTE 802.11 router) + Three mobile (802.11 hotspot)
2013 PN 30? Mbps + VM 30+? Mbps + Three mobile
Standard User ultra
(experienced) Tue 21-Aug-12 13:28:53
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: Wagstaff] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Wagstaff:
The "message" was contained in previous threads.

and as has been said recently, how many PN customers should be expected to find out mostly by spotting such information on a thread here on TBB, on USENET, in PN board or some other, instead of being directly told about a change that would save them money, if only they asked for a change

I don't think it was ever marked as a 'News' item on TBB, which might have led to it appearing in some online and print computer magazines and even business print (Computer Weekly/Computing).

PN seems to be about the only ISP which does pass on the discount, and all credit to them for so doing, but then they blot their paper with this massive PR disaster and cannot be minded to alter this to be fair to loyal customers.

I don't even remember how some user came to be aware of the change, and it be confirmed here on TBB, but I know I for one would feel highly embarrassed having to go with the policy that PN laid down. Not saying I wouldn't sleep at night, but there must be a number of thousands of pounds collected every month which could have been in the pockets of those loyal customers, but for PN being particularly underhand on this matter.

---

If you run a business, have a second ISP and backup web hosting...

1996? Enterprise (IoM 0345) + Clara.net
1998? Clara.net + Freeserve

2000 Freeserve 500kbps (+ Clara dial-up + Clara USENET/Mail)
2002 ? Eclipse 500 kbps + FS
2003 ? UKFSN 1000 kbps + Eclipse
2005 ? PlusNet 8 Mbps+ Eclipse
moved home - used office BB
2008 Three dongle at home
2010 PlusNet 2 Mbps + Three dongle
2012 PN 10 Mbps + Three (ZTE 802.11 router) + Three mobile (802.11 hotspot)
2013 PN 30? Mbps + VM 30+? Mbps + Three mobile
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Tue 21-Aug-12 14:45:40
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: ultra] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ultra:
In reply to a post by 4M2:
... I would still be paying the higher amount now shocked

Indeed, you would, and be shocked, and rightly so, because of this absolutely rotten handling.


Were market 2 PN users whose contracts had expired and continued to get broadband from PN still charged at the higher rate? During the period of a contract there may be a business justification for not informing users of the price change (even though they were entitled to the lower price) but once out of contract I would have thought there would be an obligation on PN's part to at least inform users now in "low cost areas" that a lower price would be available to them.

In fact it would make better business sense to do so since out of contract market 2 customers may be comparing their current incorrect "high cost area" charges with deals offered by other ISP's and may not check with PN if a better retention deal is available and hence not discover that they will now be subject to “low cost area” pricing

If I'm reading the situation correctly I wonder if there is a case of concealment that might have to answered by PN.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 21-Aug-12 15:12:28
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
The perennial misconception:
In reply to a post by 4M2:
Were market 2 PN users whose contracts had expired and continued to get broadband from PN
Contracts don't expire; it's the minimum period that does.

You are always under a contract whilst you are sill getting service.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Tue 21-Aug-12 15:57:22
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
The perennial misconception:
In reply to a post by 4M2:
Were market 2 PN users whose contracts had expired and continued to get broadband from PN
Contracts don't expire; it's the minimum period that does.

You are always under a contract whilst you are sill getting service.


Sure, apologies smile

http://www.plus.net/broadband/?source=mainNav Legal bit: "Broadband with no annual contract...Minimum term of 30 days."

Yet one can leave with just 10 days notice?

Edit: actually I think it took 10 days for PN to issue me with a MAC key if I remember correctly.

Edited by 4M2 (Tue 21-Aug-12 16:11:30)

Standard User ian72
(knowledge is power) Tue 21-Aug-12 16:10:25
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Easy, 10 days notice but you pay for 30 days minumum. How many people (except in exceptional circumstances) cancel their broadband in the first 19 days?
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Tue 21-Aug-12 16:31:03
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
...How many people (except in exceptional circumstances) cancel their broadband in the first 19 days?


I did with o2 Access without penalty a few years back - but that was during their 30 day happiness guarantee period. Their broadband service was rubbish on IP stream and I guess I was exceptionally unhappy frown
Standard User Wagstaff
(committed) Tue 21-Aug-12 23:25:59
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: ultra] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ultra:
I don't even remember how some user came to be aware of the change, and it be confirmed here on TBB,.....

It’s interesting to discover that it was, in fact, you who raised one thread entitled “Plusnet pricing…”, where the whole matter of Plusnet’s reluctance to advise its customers of the Market 2 price change was discussed.

I’m not afraid to admit that I use the TBB forums to learn new things about broadband and related issues, and I assumed that other members of TBB do the same.

As a Plusnet customer, I take a special interest in TBB’s Plusnet forum, and I took it for granted that others do the same. I was therefore surprised to discover that the OP, a Plusnet customer and classified by TBB as “experienced”, had not picked up the information contained in your thread.

Maybe I'm being a bit unfair to the OP in making these assumptions. If so, I apologise, but it does show the importance of keeping up with threads on these forums.

Wagstaff


"To injustice belongs injustice."
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 22-Aug-12 10:32:03
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: Wagstaff] [link to this post]
 
Which brings us back to how many of the 600,000+ PN customers ever go near a forum like this?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre FTTC 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User professor973
(member) Wed 22-Aug-12 11:19:31
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: Wagstaff] [link to this post]
 
Like many other companies, it is simply a case of Plusnet raking in what they can get away with. For Plusnet to say they have no idea of exchange market status of all their customers so could do nothing about it, simply does not hold water. They could simply send a standard email to all customers advising them to check their exchange status, unless of course they have no idea of who all their customers are, which would not surprise me considering the state of their information pages.

Fora, where everyone knows everything — Everyone else knows nothing!
http://mcslhr.visualware.com/myspeed/db/report?id=61...
Standard User ian72
(knowledge is power) Wed 22-Aug-12 12:53:13
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
I would take this a stage further.

If you sign up via Plusnet's website it is capable of working out your exchange status to tell you which of the prices you will be charged.

So, they could take the phone numbers from their database of all customers currently on the higher pricing, run them automatically through the same lookup engine and automatically inform or regrade all those that are now market 2 or market 3.

I am not necessarily saying that Plusnet should do that but Plusnet definitely could do that.

EDIT: Other things that Plusnet would say stops this are:
* that the email addresses for customers tend to be those that come with the account and many of their customers will never check them.
* that customers who have specifically opted out of marketing should be excluded from any emails, even where those emails are directly about their existing account and to their benefit

Edited by ian72 (Wed 22-Aug-12 12:55:08)

Standard User Oliver341
(knowledge is power) Wed 22-Aug-12 13:00:07
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
So, they could take the phone numbers from their database of all customers currently on the higher pricing, run them automatically through the same lookup engine and automatically inform or regrade all those that are now market 2 or market 3.

They already do something similar I believe with fibre. I know people on Plusnet ADSL2+ who have been contacted when fibre becomes available on their line. And this is probably even done on a cabinet basis, rather than exchange.

Of course Plusnet are going to be more willing to do this as it makes them more money, not less.

Oliver.
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Wed 22-Aug-12 13:52:59
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
There must be a way for PN to suggest to it's customers to check here: http://www.plus.net/support/broadband/products/low_c... Perhaps when a user logs into their PN account then there should be a banner notification of the change to the "low cost area" classification. If it is found that a user's exchange is market 2 (something which they not have been aware of) then they could contact PN and claim the price reduction.

However the price change for Market 2 exchanges should be done automatically, instead those honest folks at PN are bowling deceptive googlies rather than bowling blatant no balls and the umpire seems to be happy with that...
Standard User ian72
(knowledge is power) Wed 22-Aug-12 16:42:35
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Wow. If only plusnet could automate that same lookup for all the phone numbers in it's database and compare the market against the package they are paying for. That could solve all their technical issues around this problem.

All Plusnet need to do is agree it is not a technical issue but a business issue that is driving the decision. We may disagree with the business decision but it is a valid decision for them to make - if a customer signs up as particular price then that is what they have agreed (and remember the price of the package has not changed, just the designation of who can get the lower tier).

Good customer service would mean reducing the price automatically. Good business sense/profit margin may be to not do it automatically (although even then if users find out they are more likely to leave if they weren't informed and therefore that lowers profit margins).
ISP Representative chrisparr
(isp) Wed 22-Aug-12 16:46:19
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
I don't think we've said it was a technical issue stopping us doing this? It was indeed a business decision to keep the price at the level agreed during signup and only change this upon contact with us or an account change.

Chris Parr
Plusnet Support Team
Service Status :: RSS :: Email
The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Wed 22-Aug-12 17:19:30
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
I've considered a return to PN for 21CN WBC adsl2+ but the absence of direct notification regarding a change to "low cost areas" for existing users on market 2 exchanges has left a bad taste.

This is perhaps a symptom of poor customer service, together with their occasionally chaotic ticketing system, that tends make folks reluctant to return or even remain customers...
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Wed 22-Aug-12 17:34:04
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: chrisparr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by chrisparr:
I don't think we've said it was a technical issue stopping us doing this? It was indeed a business decision to keep the price at the level agreed during signup and only change this upon contact with us or an account change.


That's a valid business decision but what about those customers no longer in an annual contract and now on a 28 day minimum term who keep the same broadband package and haven’t had any reason to contact you - doesn't that count as an account change?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 22-Aug-12 17:42:50
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Well for years Plusnet was one of the ISPs I swore I would never join, likewise not rejoining BT.

But even though I was well aware of the type of issues that both have, I was sufficiently impressed by the great improvement over the last couple of years, led in Plusnet's case by the hard-working reps here, that I felt safe to sign up for the highly competitive 40/2Mbps 40GB FTTC product I went for.

About to become 40/10 at no extra cost, automatically, and with an excellent 80/20 (56/13.8) 250GB peak option for a mere £3.50pm more. Yes I have had a couple of niggles since joining in February, but expect I shall stump up that £3.50.

I agree with all those saying this particular thing shouldn't have happened, and have said so earlier. But plenty of things shouldn't happen at other ISPs and we often don't hear much about them.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre FTTC 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Wed 22-Aug-12 18:14:17
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
But even though I was well aware of the type of issues that both have, I was sufficiently impressed by the great improvement over the last couple of years, led in Plusnet's case by the hard-working reps here, that I felt safe to sign up for the highly competitive 40/2Mbps 40GB FTTC product I went for...

...I agree with all those saying this particular thing shouldn't have happened, and have said so earlier. But plenty of things shouldn't happen at other ISPs and we often don't hear much about them.


Good to hear something positive about PN smile

This thread has become a place for disgruntled current and ex PN users to express their negative views about the "low cost area" pricing policy and, as you suggest, perhaps not all ISP's are perfect in the way they treat paying customers. But it is the paying customer base that keeps an ISP afloat financially and if a sizable proportion discover by chance a change, perhaps perceiving they have been treated unjustly or unfairly, that surely can not be good for business in the longer term.

Edited by 4M2 (Wed 22-Aug-12 18:22:33)

Standard User therioman
(knowledge is power) Wed 22-Aug-12 18:21:12
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: chrisparr] [link to this post]
 
It's not directly dishonest no.

But that you'll GIVE that price discount to people who know and ask means those who don't know (eg the majority which is what you count on) will be paying more than they have to.

It doesn't feel that "honest" to me as a customer, and i feel a bit miffed frankly.
Standard User therioman
(knowledge is power) Wed 22-Aug-12 18:22:34
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: chrisparr] [link to this post]
 
Why not? They're costing you more. It should work both ways...
Standard User therioman
(knowledge is power) Wed 22-Aug-12 18:23:53
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
...PN could even have said "we'll drop your price but you'll need to agree a new contract term to do this" - and I bet many would have said OK - and PN would have gained themselves extra guaranteed custom.

But no no, sneaky sneaky...
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Wed 22-Aug-12 18:49:04
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: therioman] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by therioman:
...PN could even have said "we'll drop your price but you'll need to agree a new contract term to do this" - and I bet many would have said OK - and PN would have gained themselves extra guaranteed custom.


Yes, that would have been a good move...and those nearing the end of their contracts could decline the offer then, at a later stage, renegotiate a new deal or migrate to another ISP. smile
Standard User professor973
(member) Wed 22-Aug-12 22:27:44
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
That's a valid business decision but what about those customers no longer in an annual contract and now on a 28 day minimum term

I would think the most important thing, is what about of the thousands visiting this site and witnessing one PN shambles after another. Many may have been considering Plusnet. The losses may well outweigh the exchange status rake off.

Fora, where everyone knows everything — Everyone else knows nothing!
http://mcslhr.visualware.com/myspeed/db/report?id=61...
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 22-Aug-12 22:31:32
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: therioman] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by therioman:
It's not directly dishonest no.

But that you'll GIVE that price discount to people who know and ask means those who don't know (eg the majority which is what you count on) will be paying more than they have to.

It doesn't feel that "honest" to me as a customer, and i feel a bit miffed frankly.
All building societies and banks got well thumped for it years ago, by the regulator at the time. Starting new interest-bearing products with higher rates than current customers were getting, and not telling those customers.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre FTTC 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Oliver341
(knowledge is power) Wed 22-Aug-12 22:38:21
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by professor973:
I would think the most important thing, is what about of the thousands visiting this site and witnessing one PN shambles after another.

They're more likely to witness you grinding an axe, day after day.

Oliver.
Standard User professor973
(member) Wed 22-Aug-12 22:50:48
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: Oliver341] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Oliver341:
In reply to a post by professor973:
I would think the most important thing, is what about of the thousands visiting this site and witnessing one PN shambles after another.

They're more likely to witness you grinding an axe, day after day.

Then I can only suggest you take a look at the PN forum, where you will find a hell of a lot more 'Grinding the axe'. I can only assume TBB is on some uSwitch style referral fee.
https://community.plus.net/forum/index.php?board=49.0

Fora, where everyone knows everything — Everyone else knows nothing!
http://mcslhr.visualware.com/myspeed/db/report?id=61...
Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Wed 22-Aug-12 22:53:42
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by professor973:
Then I can only suggest you take a look at the PN forum, where you will find a hell of a lot more 'Grinding the axe'. I can only assume TBB is on some uSwitch style referral fee.
https://community.plus.net/forum/index.php?board=49.0


Obviously.

Zen customers won't grind their axe on the Plusnet forum, will they? Equally the majority of happy customers (of any service or product) don't spend their time posting their happiness.

When was the last time you called your electrical supplier to congratulate them for the voltage being good and constant? smile

~ Camieabz ~

All Connection Data ~ Some plusnet links

mod'er·a'tion n.
Synonyms: temperance, restraint, modesty.
Standard User Oliver341
(knowledge is power) Wed 22-Aug-12 22:54:36
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by professor973:
Then I can only suggest you take a look at the PN forum

No thanks, you're the one constantly looking to criticise Plusnet, not me.

Oliver.
Standard User professor973
(member) Wed 22-Aug-12 23:33:36
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
When was the last time you called your electrical supplier to congratulate them for the voltage being good and constant? smile

That is beside the point and typical forum drivel.
When was the last time you saw an ISP other than Plusnet, admit here week in and week out, that they had made another cock-up, and yes, yet another information page was out of date or still not updated. With such inaccuracies as guidance, I don't see how PN customer services have a cat in hells chance of delivering that 'Honest, Top Quality' service trumpeted by that silly brass band.
Rest assured, that any such shortcomings from Zen will be trumpeted in the Zen forum, just as they were for PO, PN & BT. That is if I ever have ZEN as an ISP!

Fora, where everyone knows everything — Everyone else knows nothing!
http://www.pingtest.net/result/68380009.png

Edited by professor973 (Wed 22-Aug-12 23:38:57)

Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Thu 23-Aug-12 01:10:33
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
Well I can only suggest to the other forum members that every time you grind your axe, we compliment if we're happy. That's fair, isn't it?

~ Camieabz ~

All Connection Data ~ Some plusnet links

mod'er·a'tion n.
Synonyms: temperance, restraint, modesty.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 23-Aug-12 01:28:43
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
All building societies and banks got well thumped for it years ago, by the regulator at the time. Starting new interest-bearing products with higher rates than current customers were getting, and not telling those customers.
There is as yet no regulation on this; only a voluntary code that some banks will now show the current rate of your existing account on statements (Barclays has been doing this for years). It's still up to the customer to shop around and compare his rate with the rest.

So, in essence, this is no diff from PN's stance on the OP Subject wink. Users know what they are currently paying and the onus is on them to look and see if they can get it any cheaper, from PN or elsewhere.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Moderator Sadoldman
(moderator) Thu 23-Aug-12 07:14:44
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
I mentioned before that an ISP is not your friend, neither are they responsible for the customer getting the best value.

It is quite clear that this anomaly with Market 2 is a business decision, no doubt to obtain new customers. I would hazard a guess that if offered to all customers who qualify the business model would fail and would not be a financially viable....and that in the end is the point of their of existence, profitability. No other ISP offers it at all, again a business decision.

I go back again to the point I made, customers should look at the contract they signed up for, is it competitive, does it fit your needs, and is it reliable.? If not do as Old Bill said in the first war when a companion in a bomb crater complained that it was not safe as shells were raining down all around, well said Bill" if you know of a better 'ole...go to it"smile

As someone's sig once said, life is not fair, sometimes it is not fair to your advantage.

Sadoldman

Just a tad sad..a wee bit old...wink

[email protected]
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User flippery
(regular) Thu 23-Aug-12 08:04:03
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by professor973:
When was the last time you called your electrical supplier to congratulate them for the voltage being good and constant? smile

That is beside the point and typical forum drivel.
When was the last time you saw an ISP other than Plusnet, admit here week in and week out, that they had made another cock-up, and yes, yet another information page was out of date or still not updated. With such inaccuracies as guidance, I don't see how PN customer services have a cat in hells chance of delivering that 'Honest, Top Quality' service trumpeted by that silly brass band.
Rest assured, that any such shortcomings from Zen will be trumpeted in the Zen forum, just as they were for PO, PN & BT. That is if I ever have ZEN as an ISP!

On the Freeola website, whilst spaking the truth from personal experience, I am accused by you of being a troller.
Seems here what you say is what you think you know, not what you know. IIn fact you are a troller
I know nothing of how Plusnet conducts it business. I know from family experience that it gives a good reliable service at a reasonable price.
The more users that an ISP has there will be a increase in the number of unhappy customers. Which bears no relation to number of posts on this site or others.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 23-Aug-12 08:35:32
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Note - I was speaking about interest-bearing deposits, not charges.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre FTTC 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User professor973
(member) Thu 23-Aug-12 09:31:33
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: flippery] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by flippery:
In reply to a post by professor973:
When was the last time you called your electrical supplier to congratulate them for the voltage being good and constant? smile

That is beside the point and typical forum drivel.
When was the last time you saw an ISP other than Plusnet, admit here week in and week out, that they had made another cock-up, and yes, yet another information page was out of date or still not updated. With such inaccuracies as guidance, I don't see how PN customer services have a cat in hells chance of delivering that 'Honest, Top Quality' service trumpeted by that silly brass band.
Rest assured, that any such shortcomings from Zen will be trumpeted in the Zen forum, just as they were for PO, PN & BT. That is if I ever have ZEN as an ISP!

On the Freeola website, whilst spaking the truth from personal experience, I am accused by you of being a troller.
Seems here what you say is what you think you know, not what you know. IIn fact you are a troller
I know nothing of how Plusnet conducts it business. I know from family experience that it gives a good reliable service at a reasonable price.
The more users that an ISP has there will be a increase in the number of unhappy customers. Which bears no relation to number of posts on this site or others.

I can assure you I have never felt the need to make a single post on the Freeola site, this can be proven under my username, so I would be grateful if you could point me to this 'alleged' trolling accusation.

Fora, where everyone knows everything — Everyone else knows nothing!
http://www.pingtest.net/result/68380009.png
Standard User therioman
(knowledge is power) Thu 23-Aug-12 09:59:43
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
...and look at how well trusted and regarded banks are...
Standard User therioman
(knowledge is power) Thu 23-Aug-12 10:35:06
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: chrisparr] [link to this post]
 
Actually your staff DO pretty much say it's a technical issue:

"Our systems don't recognise the change in Market area and this needs to be done manually. As I'm sure you can appreciate it isn't viable for us to go through every one of our 600,000 customers accounts to check these."

I'd have thought it's very "viable" for a script to do that, and I very much doubt the "systems" can't recognise it - they do when you sign up!

Don't tell me, the "agent" will be "educated" or whatever you say...

At least you're honest to say it's a business decision, and not give me nonsense about being unviable technically...
Standard User professor973
(member) Thu 23-Aug-12 11:46:41
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: therioman] [link to this post]
 
If PN treated everyone the same, they would have to increase their prices. you would then be better off with BT proper.

Fora, where everyone knows everything — Everyone else knows nothing!
http://www.pingtest.net/result/68380009.png
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 23-Aug-12 13:23:48
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Note - I was speaking about interest-bearing deposits, not charges.
So was I! Savings accounts' interest rates to be exact.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Thu 23-Aug-12 15:05:31
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: therioman] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by therioman:
At least you're honest to say it's a business decision, and not give me nonsense about being unviable technically...


It seems the larger an organisation becomes then flexibility diminishes: an organisation may become a lumbering bureaucratic giant where decisions made in one department can take forever to be implemented throughout all departments.

With ISP's it's amazing though that if one requests a MAC key or speaks to a retentions department then their flexibility increases dramatically...
Standard User therioman
(knowledge is power) Thu 23-Aug-12 16:12:08
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Quite - I've got countless experiences of this.

Although not quite the same, we had a case once where a customer had agreed to 14 day payment terms, but when it came to it told us they couldn't pay in less than 60 days, the system would not allow it etc etc.

A couple of late invoices later, some charges under the statutory late payments and interest legislation for businesses and voila, magically every invoice is paid on day 5.
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Thu 23-Aug-12 17:01:06
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: therioman] [link to this post]
 
Just enquired about the renewal of my buildings and contents insurance - foolishly haven't bothered to shop around for lower premiums during the last few years - and the retention deal offered was £116 and last year I paid £195 with the same company for the same cover!

Discounts would presumably have been available to me in previous years but because I didn't contact them the premium remained at the higher rate. Of course the discounts were not applied automatically.

In a way this is very similar to PN not contacting existing customers regarding the lower rate for market 2. Perhaps there is a culture of business practice where customers are left in the dark regarding financially advantageous changes to their accounts and the onus is entirely with the customer to check that they are getting the best deal, or negotiate a better deal?
Standard User professor973
(member) Thu 23-Aug-12 17:38:49
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 4M2:
Just enquired about the renewal of my buildings and contents insurance - foolishly haven't bothered to shop around for lower premiums during the last few years - and the retention deal offered was £116 and last year I paid £195 with the same company for the same cover!

Discounts would presumably have been available to me in previous years but because I didn't contact them the premium remained at the higher rate. Of course the discounts were not applied automatically.

In a way this is very similar to PN not contacting existing customers regarding the lower rate for market 2. Perhaps there is a culture of business practice where customers are left in the dark regarding financially advantageous changes to their accounts and the onus is entirely with the customer to check that they are getting the best deal, or negotiate a better deal?

Have you tried the same company online with the same cover as a new customer? It halved the price of renewal for me this year.

Fora, where everyone knows everything — Everyone else knows nothing!
http://www.pingtest.net/result/68380009.png
Standard User 4M2
(experienced) Thu 23-Aug-12 18:18:43
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by professor973:
Have you tried the same company online with the same cover as a new customer? It halved the price of renewal for me this year.


Thanks, I will try that in the future smile

However this time I had to contact them regarding auto-renewal and it was when I mentioned quotations from other companies that the premium dramatically reduced.
Standard User ultra
(experienced) Thu 23-Aug-12 19:18:31
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: Wagstaff] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Wagstaff:
It’s interesting to discover that it was, in fact, you who raised one thread entitled “Plusnet pricing…”, where the whole matter of Plusnet’s reluctance to advise its customers of the Market 2 price change was discussed.

Crumbs. That's definitely news to me. I can only imagine (since I have been on a Market 3 exchange in each location I've lived since starting to use ADSL) that it was the result of a query that made me look (or somehow I spotted a difference in wording). Will have to go back to find that thread (unless you have a link handy!?!)

In reply to a post by Wagstaff:
As a Plusnet customer, I take a special interest in TBB’s Plusnet forum, and I took it for granted that others do the same.

If it was 'news to me' I might have posted it on the basis that it might kick customer-facing staff into the real world where the honesty and transparency of PlusNet as a business had been accepted by many as the way they had changed (with fairly regular [albeit annual] 'product refresh' alterations, mostly going in a positive direction for customers ), and where this Market 2 situation was a PR disaster in the making.

It might have been that the discussion was brought up on USENET and (given some people may not bother with that, and I must admit to being less involved in recent years with posting there), the next best place could be TBB, if only because PN could not exert any influence on whether the thread was visible (where there may have been a tiny chance of removal from the PUG forum, or PN's own).

I only dip in to the PlusNet section from time to time (months go by without regular interaction on TBB) and thus you seem to be more observant than me wrt threads on TBB affecting PN.

If the PN newsletter should have carried something useful, the change in pricing of Market 2 should have been it! That'd have been refreshingly 'transparent' whereas PN seems to have gone into an opaque world, and may no longer be relied on to make clear what changes they have made which could not only assist PN customers, but improve their reputation at the same time.

---

If you run a business, have a second ISP and backup web hosting...

1996? Enterprise (IoM 0345) + Clara.net
1998? Clara.net + Freeserve

2000 Freeserve 500kbps (+ Clara dial-up + Clara USENET/Mail)
2002 ? Eclipse 500 kbps + FS
2003 ? UKFSN 1000 kbps + Eclipse
2005 ? PlusNet 8 Mbps+ Eclipse
moved home - used office BB
2008 Three dongle at home
2010 PlusNet 2 Mbps + Three dongle
2012 PN 10 Mbps + Three (ZTE 802.11 router) + Three mobile (802.11 hotspot)
2013 PN 30? Mbps + VM 30+? Mbps + Three mobile
Standard User ultra
(experienced) Thu 23-Aug-12 19:31:48
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by professor973:
I would think the most important thing, is what about of the thousands visiting this site and witnessing one PN shambles after another.

I think you overestimate the number of people with clue who might check here.

Certainly a few threads spread over months about the Market 2 pricing issue may not be easily spotted. The more likely 'I hate PN' type of thread would probably catch the eye, and in those, not only are PN staff generally bending over backwards to assist the complainant, but other posters often ask pertinent questions in case it's not an ISP issue but a line or router problem.

I don't want to be negative about TBB, but surely most would agree that with millions of possible users (20 million households perhaps using broadband) the site would be heavily overloaded if even 20% were users and visiting the site daily.

Someone else suggested the majority on TBB would be classed as geeky by many, but however geeky you are, you might not be likely to search for "Market 2" threads and then find this PR disaster at PN....

---

If you run a business, have a second ISP and backup web hosting...

1996? Enterprise (IoM 0345) + Clara.net
1998? Clara.net + Freeserve

2000 Freeserve 500kbps (+ Clara dial-up + Clara USENET/Mail)
2002 ? Eclipse 500 kbps + FS
2003 ? UKFSN 1000 kbps + Eclipse
2005 ? PlusNet 8 Mbps+ Eclipse
moved home - used office BB
2008 Three dongle at home
2010 PlusNet 2 Mbps + Three dongle
2012 PN 10 Mbps + Three (ZTE 802.11 router) + Three mobile (802.11 hotspot)
2013 PN 30? Mbps + VM 30+? Mbps + Three mobile
Standard User fig
(experienced) Thu 23-Aug-12 21:59:11
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: Wagstaff] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Wagstaff:
As a Plusnet customer, I take a special interest in TBB’s Plusnet forum, and I took it for granted that others do the same. I was therefore surprised to discover that the OP, a Plusnet customer and classified by TBB as “experienced”, had not picked up the information contained in your thread.

Maybe I'm being a bit unfair to the OP in making these assumptions. If so, I apologise, but it does show the importance of keeping up with threads on these forums.

Unfortunately you are wrong, I dip in and out of the forums on occasions just to browse about, mainly to see if there are any announcements about my exchange.

I moved house 3 years ago and it's always been a Market 2 exchange, I keep an eye on other ISP's arranging LLU (none) in TBB (C&W said they were 18 months or so ago but it disappeared) and check SAMKNOWS every couple of weeks too.

I check the PN website every now and then to see if they have launched any new products that may better suit my needs but as yet nothing that affects my connection has appeared so I've never had cause to check the prices again because the front page always says FROM £x.xx and that doesn't appear to have changed.

I can't even remember how I stumbled across the change in pricing policy but it was completely by accident. If I hadn't found it I'd have been non the wiser still, and I wouldn't be actively looking in the PN forum for it. If I pop into TBB PN forum once a month that's a lot and even then I'll only see what the first couple of pages of headlines are and wander off.

I unfortunately have work to do and a family to look after, so to expect me to browse through TBB PN forum day after day and pick up on a pricing change that hasn't been announced is a pretty big ask. If I had the time, maybe I would, maybe even should but without a reason to look, I've got better things to do to be frank. I only posted it here to ask if anyone else was aware, what their experience of sorting it out was, etc.

Anyway, I'll disappear again and get back to my 5 day old baby which seems a little more important right now smile

plusnet 4/11/2003 -> 4/3/2009 512Kb-2Mb
O2 Standard LLU 4/3/2009 -> 23/6/2009 ~3Mb O2 Access 13/7/2009 -> 22/6/2010 ~8Mb
plusnet 22/6/2010 -> ?? ~8MB
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 23-Aug-12 23:08:26
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: fig] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by fig:
... I dip in and out of the forums on occasions just to browse about, mainly to see if there are any announcements about my exchange.

I moved house 3 years ago and it's always been a Market 2 exchange, I keep an eye on other ISP's arranging LLU (none) in TBB (C&W said they were 18 months or so ago but it disappeared) and check SAMKNOWS every couple of weeks too.

I check the PN website every now and then to see if they have launched any new products that may better suit my needs but as yet nothing that affects my connection has appeared so I've never had cause to check the prices again because the front page always says FROM £x.xx and that doesn't appear to have changed.

I can't even remember how I stumbled across the change in pricing policy but it was completely by accident. If I hadn't found it I'd have been non the wiser still, and I wouldn't be actively looking in the PN forum for it. If I pop into TBB PN forum once a month that's a lot and even then I'll only see what the first couple of pages of headlines are and wander off.

I unfortunately have work to do and a family to look after, so to expect me to browse through TBB PN forum day after day and pick up on a pricing change that hasn't been announced is a pretty big ask. If I had the time, maybe I would, maybe even should but without a reason to look, I've got better things to do to be frank. I only posted it here to ask if anyone else was aware, what their experience of sorting it out was, etc.
Exactly.
Anyway, I'll disappear again and get back to my 5 day old baby which seems a little more important right now smile
I advise being careful about the downstream there.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre FTTC 80/20 trial.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User therioman
(knowledge is power) Fri 24-Aug-12 10:25:33
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
It's not quite the same...

I'm more annoyed that Plusnet spout all this "good honest broadband" stuff - but this sort of stuff whilst strictly speaking within the terms and not technically dishonest leaves you feeling like you've been a bit done and you don't quite feel honest...
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 24-Aug-12 21:16:03
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: therioman] [link to this post]
 
Just found an example of bureaucratic inflexibility: the DWP found a person who suffers from epilepsy not eligible for an allowance, reason being that if incontinence should be suffered during a fit then epilepsy and incontinence could not be regarded as separate conditions warranting separate points. If however incontinence is suffered at times other than during a fit then points would be scored for this condition and thus a sufficient number of points, when totalled together with the points scored for epilepsy, would be awarded for them to receive the allowance.

Outrageous but true!
Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Fri 24-Aug-12 21:20:42
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 4M2:
Outrageous but true!


Not really. If one causes the other, it's hardly a case of two conditions.

However, it's not surprising to see DWP and incontinence in the same sentence. Typo or not? smile

~ Camieabz ~

All Connection Data ~ Some plusnet links

mod'er·a'tion n.
Synonyms: temperance, restraint, modesty.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 24-Aug-12 21:27:46
Print Post

Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
But the points is did they inform their client of this or did he have to find our for himself?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 24-Aug-12 21:28:49
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Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
A colusion between ATOS Heathcare/IT Services and the DWP perhaps?
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 24-Aug-12 21:38:14
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Re: PN Market 2 charges - PN Terms & Conditions???


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
But the points is did they inform their client of this or did he have to find our for himself?


What do you mean: did the DWP inform the client of the "accident" after he came round from the fit (!) or did the DWP inform him of the inadequate points score after the assessment? If the later then yes they did inform him, but he later discovered that if the unfortunate events were not simultaneous then he would have received sufficient points.

Needless to say he is appealing the DWP’s decision.

Edited by 4M2 (Fri 24-Aug-12 21:41:07)

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