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Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 13-Apr-15 12:06:09
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Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[link to this post]
 
Ok I'm asking this here as I keep getting differing opinions and answers.

My master socket is in a hallway, ground floor, middle of the house. All my PC kit is upstairs in a room with no phone socket. The closest phone socket is a room next to it which is an extension. PC/router connects to this extension currently using a long phone cable. I'm currently on ADSL.

Because i don't want the data extension cable for fibre running up the stairs under hallway carpet around skirting boards, doors etc etc and into my PC room, i will need the master socket moving upstairs. And then make the old master an extension, reasonable right?

So Plusnet are saying Openreach will NOT do this as part of the fibre install. I have to call them out again to do this for me at a cost of course, i think circa £130 or maybe lots more.

Is this true, or will Openreach just move the master socket as part of the fibre install?

Plusnet also advised it would be cheaper to call out a local electrician and get them to do it. Yep probably right, but I thought this was illegal and no one was allowed to touch the BT kit except for them? For that reason I'm struggling to find anyone who will do it.

I'm considering just going ahead and ordering and then hope the Openreach guy agrees with me on the install day and moves the master for me.

What other options are open to me or any suggestions please?

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200

Edited by bIOforger (Mon 13-Apr-15 15:51:34)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 13-Apr-15 12:24:18
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
According to what ISPs are able to order, what Plusnet are telling you is right. However, in practice things are often different.

Make sure the Data Extension Kit, (Openreach call it the Home Wiring Solution), is ordered. Without that the engineers are a little limited in what they can do - possibly including a time constraint.

Assuming you get an Openreach engineer they can often be persuaded to use the existing wiring to convert the extension into the master. They used to want it to be high quality cable, not normal phone extension stuff, but seeing as BT Retail; Sky and I think TalkTalk now don't send an engineer but you self-install just like your ADSLx is I wouldn't be surprised if you get what you want done.

If you get a subcontractor such as Kelly's or Quinn's some seem not even to know what the Home Wiring Solution (DEK) is frown.

Another point is that only the master to exchange side of the Test Socket is out of bounds. You could yourself fit an extension in the PC room using a kit like this, though the better quality the cable the better, (CAT 5 is ideal), and wiring it into the inside of the current extension rather than using the plug-in adapter.

It would be an idea to post the estimates from the BT Wholesale estimator so we can advise on the speed effect.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 60000/16961kbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 13-Apr-15 12:26:45)

Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 13-Apr-15 12:40:09
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Thanks, yea i keep hearing that they can be persuaded, (but dependent and who turns up/whether they can be bothered or not).

For me personally i would have thought it would be easier to move the master than route the data extension cable all round the place. I think i will just take my own advice and take the punt. Worst case scenario i will have the Openreach modem mounted and will just need to call them out again to move the master as a separate job and extra cost. What could possibly go wrong smile

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200


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Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 13-Apr-15 12:46:08
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
Here's the speed estimate for my line.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q204/bIOforger/Mi...

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200
Standard User rogerfp
(member) Mon 13-Apr-15 13:26:58
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
I assume as the master socket is In the middle of the house, that the cable must route itself from where it enters the property. So where does the cable enter the house? Once you establish that I would have thought it would pretty simple to reroute from there up to the room you want or if it comes from a telegraph pole and down the wall just to intercept it and through the 1st floor wall. As telephone wiring is as simple as ABC and the master only connects with 2 wires it's virtually a DIY job, not that I would ever suggest saving £130, by bypassing BT!!!!!
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 13-Apr-15 13:40:42
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: rogerfp] [link to this post]
 
Do OR keep a record of where the master box is located?

Can't say I haven't removed my master box but it has been repositioned within 12" of it's original point.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 13-Apr-15 13:58:29
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by broadband66:
Do OR keep a record of where the master box is located?
No.

Given those estimates, if all else fails then unless you are desperate for that speed I would get one of those kits I linked to and just plug it into the upstairs extension initially. Then use a dangly filter in the resultant socket in the PC room and see what speed you get.

You will need the engineer to wire that existing extension to the unfiltered terminals on the back of the VDSL2 faceplate he will fit at the master, unless you get lucky and he converts the existing extension to be master. Or better still the extension I suggest you pre-install in the PC room using CAT5.

Having said that, with the Data Extension Kit ordered, rogerfp has a point! But not bypassing Openreach.

The incoming wires could be re-routed directly to the PC room and you could sort out the existing extension wiring easily and legally from the new master faceplate.

In outline you would wire the existing extension as an extension from the new master but retain the connection to where the old master is. At the old master you then connect any other extensions to the wire from that using the IDC connectors. Might need a bit of jiggery-pokery with the connectors if there are several extensions.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 60000/16961kbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 13-Apr-15 14:00:42)

Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 13-Apr-15 14:15:25
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
No I don't want to compromise the speed too much really.

I forgot to mention fiddling about with the wires may seem like a simple task to you, but its not to me, i hate wiring and have zero knowledge of what would be required. That's not something i would feel confident with messing with to be honest.

The line enters the house at the front at ground level, my PC room is at the back and a level up, i cant see the 30m cable being long enough to be honest, it is a big 5 room house. Although it might be an alternative.

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200

Edited by bIOforger (Mon 13-Apr-15 14:28:33)

Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 13-Apr-15 15:04:38
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
Also i don't get the point of using the telephone extension kit you linked to, as this is basically what i have in place now for my ADSL connection with a microfilter at the socket, i thought these types of extensions couldn't deal with the fibre speeds at all? Are you saying it will work but it will obviously degrade the speed?

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 13-Apr-15 15:18:06
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
Re the 30m cable, that's just the basic internal one that was originally supplied. It isn't an actual limit even for internal.

Re rogerfd and my suggestion for the re-routing externally, the Home Wiring Solution can be by internal cable as you think or by external grade cable on the outside of the house. Openreach van stock.

Re using existing wiring, note what I said about BT, Sky and TalkTalk. You no longer get an engineer visit, nor a VDSL2 filter plate at the master. Just a modem/router and a dangly filter just like for ADSLx. Ostensibly use any socket you have.

There are literally hundreds of threads on these forums about the gains to be had on ADSLx from optimising your home wiring. They have already started for FTTC self-install.

If you look at the speed estimates you posted earlier, the "Impacted" line I believe caters (amongst other factors) for wiring such as yours.

The kit I mention is just the cleanest way of doing what you do now, as it would also bring the modem and dangly filter into the PC room. Though leaving the modem at the current extension would slightly improve the speed. If you do that you would need an Ethernet cable from the modem to the router, plus the phone cable you already have from the filter, assuming you need the phone as well. There is no speed loss through the Ethernet cable.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 60000/16961kbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM
Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 13-Apr-15 15:45:20
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Ah ok its getting clearer now. I guess what i read on the BT site about the existing internal cable not being up to the job for FTTC wasn't completely accurate then.

Yep exactly, the impacted speed is quite a chunk lower than if it was over ethernet; ideally this is what i need. Thanks to everyone for your advice though.

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200

Edited by bIOforger (Mon 13-Apr-15 16:08:21)

Standard User rogerfp
(member) Mon 13-Apr-15 18:38:03
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
Unfortunate that your PC room is at the back. I suppose the ideal solution is to move the master socket by running up the wall to the 1st floor where it enters the property and from there run it at the same height round the house to the back into the PC room. Assuming it wil be terminated with a NTE5 faceplate, by using 6 core cable then there will be a return circuit to connect up the existing sockets from a junction at the original entrance point. Just remember there are many BT engineers who do private work!!!
Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 13-Apr-15 18:50:42
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: rogerfp] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by rogerfp:
Unfortunate that your PC room is at the back. I suppose the ideal solution is to move the master socket by running up the wall to the 1st floor where it enters the property and from there run it at the same height round the house to the back into the PC room. Assuming it wil be terminated with a NTE5 faceplate, by using 6 core cable then there will be a return circuit to connect up the existing sockets from a junction at the original entrance point. Just remember there are many BT engineers who do private work!!!


Yep i agree, i think the external route is best, as there's already a hole in my pc room's wall for the Sky dish cables smile So the modem could be mounted in my PC room, along with the +net router, then all my other devices are plug n play to the router, job done. But i'm not sure if they will terminate the cable into a NTE5 faceplate in my PC room or if they will agree to the external route though crazy

Do you know any engineers who are available in the Swindon/M4 corridor area? smile

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200

Edited by bIOforger (Mon 13-Apr-15 18:52:48)

Standard User rogerfp
(member) Mon 13-Apr-15 19:28:00
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
I'm guessing they probably will use a NTE5 faceplate as it makes the most sense. Then your extensions will be run via the spare cables in the core cable back down to a junction box where it originally entered the house and then onto the house extensions as before. Unfortunately I'm miles from where you live and have no connections with any engineers in that area. However if it was me I would just ask any BT engineer you see working in the street. There's always one about. Other than that many just advertise anonymously in the local papers etc offering to install extensions.
Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 13-Apr-15 20:31:39
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: rogerfp] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by rogerfp:
I'm guessing they probably will use a NTE5 faceplate as it makes the most sense. Then your extensions will be run via the spare cables in the core cable back down to a junction box where it originally entered the house and then onto the house extensions as before. Unfortunately I'm miles from where you live and have no connections with any engineers in that area. However if it was me I would just ask any BT engineer you see working in the street. There's always one about. Other than that many just advertise anonymously in the local papers etc offering to install extensions.


No problem, it was a tongue in cheek question, thanks for your help today. The order is in smile

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200
Standard User rogerfp
(member) Mon 13-Apr-15 20:39:15
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
Doh! missed that. Pleased to hear your plans are now progressing.
Standard User Eurostar
(regular) Mon 20-Apr-15 10:25:16
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
This uncertainty is something that deters me from moving to fibre. My master socket is in the hall, and my ADSL router is connected to an extension socket (one of several within the flat) in the lounge. I don't want an fibre modem/router in the hall (nowhere to put it safely), and if I could be sure that the BTOR engineer could move the master socket to the lounge I might take the plunge (I don't mind losing the other extensions as I have a cordless phone, also plugged into the lounge extension). A data cable running down the hall and through a wall or door into the lounge is a no-no.

But it all seems to be so uncertain just what BTOR will and won't do on the install day (even down to whether it's BTOR or a sub-contractor who turns up), and nothing can be confirmed at the time of ordering. What happens if the engineer turns up and won't move the master socket - can I cancel the fibre order without penalty? I'd settle for fibre self-install if/when that's available, even if the speed might be less than optimum due to my internal wiring (as it can be now with ADSL).

(also posted on Plusnet forum)
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 20-Apr-15 11:35:46
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: Eurostar] [link to this post]
 
The simplest way out if they won't play ball by re-siting the master using the existing wiring, is to let the engineer install at the master socket as normal, but make sure they do not mount the modem on the wall! due to the damage to decoration.

As soon as they have gone, carefully remove the new interstitial faceplate and put the original faceplate back in position. Move the modem to the extension you use at the moment and use the filter you are already using there.

You would still need to order the Data Extension Kit else, as I think I said earlier, the engineer isn't empowered to do anything other than install at the master.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 60000/16961kbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM
Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 20-Apr-15 14:45:30
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
The simplest way out if they won't play ball by re-siting the master using the existing wiring, is to let the engineer install at the master socket as normal, but make sure they do not mount the modem on the wall! due to the damage to decoration.

As soon as they have gone, carefully remove the new interstitial faceplate and put the original faceplate back in position. Move the modem to the extension you use at the moment and use the filter you are already using there.

You would still need to order the Data Extension Kit else, as I think I said earlier, the engineer isn't empowered to do anything other than install at the master.


Yes that's all well and good, but that will affect the sync speed considerably. As we are paying a premium for FTTC, imo it should be done properly. I really don't know why you can't just get it done exactly how you would like (within reason) when OR do the install. I mean how many people have the same setup as me and the guy above, most of us will have the PC kit located elsewhere in another (bed)room, this is my experience and usually the modem/router is not located on the same level as the master socket in most homes.

When you say put the old faceplate back in, that would need rewiring again right? What if you don't know how to do that? I would do the same but call out a local leccy instead.

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200

Edited by bIOforger (Mon 20-Apr-15 14:55:54)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 20-Apr-15 16:08:15
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
You're getting a little confused, (not surprisingly), by what's involved.

Taking the simple one first, the whole point of the interstitial faceplate the engineer fits to the master is that no re-wiring at the master or to the existing faceplate is required. All they change are the screws holding the faceplate on, using longer ones to go through both the faceplate and filter plate. See this page.

The result is that all the extensions have the broadband filtered out and are phone only. Which is why you would need to remove it. And find the shorter screws then needed!

Now to the speed. Do you know your estimates from the BT Wholesale Checker?

Unless you have completely screwed up wiring then using the extension should make little difference. That's a different discussion. BT Retail, Sky and TalkTalk no longer send an engineer and just supply their modem/router and a dangly filter, just as for ADSLx.

Having the master moved, unless once again your wiring is completely screwed and the engineer realises it and corrects it, again makes absolutely no difference. The same amount of the same cable is still added to your distance from the cabinet, so the speed loss is the same.

Edit - And if the wiring is currently screwed then even an installation at the master needs a pukka OR engineer to realise and correct it.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 60000/16961kbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 20-Apr-15 16:10:04)

Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 20-Apr-15 16:35:37
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
You're getting a little confused, (not surprisingly), by what's involved.

Taking the simple one first, the whole point of the interstitial faceplate the engineer fits to the master is that no re-wiring at the master or to the existing faceplate is required. All they change are the screws holding the faceplate on, using longer ones to go through both the faceplate and filter plate. See this page.

The result is that all the extensions have the broadband filtered out and are phone only. Which is why you would need to remove it. And find the shorter screws then needed!

Now to the speed. Do you know your estimates from the BT Wholesale Checker?

Unless you have completely screwed up wiring then using the extension should make little difference. That's a different discussion. BT Retail, Sky and TalkTalk no longer send an engineer and just supply their modem/router and a dangly filter, just as for ADSLx.

Having the master moved, unless once again your wiring is completely screwed and the engineer realises it and corrects it, again makes absolutely no difference. The same amount of the same cable is still added to your distance from the cabinet, so the speed loss is the same.

Edit - And if the wiring is currently screwed then even an installation at the master needs a pukka OR engineer to realise and correct it.


Well i didn't understand what you meant by the interstitial faceplate, i assumed this is the NTE5 faceplate, which needed rewiring? i guess it doesn't, yes now i'm confused wink

I'm pretty sure my wiring is good, as we get decent speeds over ADSL, approx 4.5-5mbps and we are a fair distance from the exchange.

Yes as per earlier in this thread;
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q204/bIOforger/Mi...

As above for FTTC there's quite a difference is there not? especially towards the low end of the "impacted" scale if we were to use the internal wiring?

I'm not suggesting you are wrong but why do BT/Plusnet etc say it MUST be installed from the master socket then? In fact BT say it simply will not work from an existing extension, it has to be from the master.

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200

Edited by bIOforger (Mon 20-Apr-15 16:37:37)

Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 20-Apr-15 17:03:34
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
So basically you are saying just plug the OR modem straight into the phone cable that is currently plugged into my ADSL router and see what the sync speed is, as doing it any other way is not going to make much difference at all with the speed?

If its really as simple as that then i will make sure the OR engineer doesn't touch my master socket! laugh

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 20-Apr-15 17:43:37
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
And you've got me confused as well, as you did a full quote of my reply to Eurostar who has a slightly different question, and then talked as though it was advice I was giving to you. I've already covered your setup at length and with different advice, for different reasons.

(And by the way, there is no need at all to do full quotes all the time of the posts you are replying to smile).

I gave you a link to a page showing how the master, VDSL (interstitial) filter and NTE5A Faceplate come apart.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 60000/16961kbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM
Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 20-Apr-15 18:42:08
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Sorry Robert but this is all new to me, i need the advice as you are probably already well aware smile Sorry yes i did quote your other reply without realising, but it is relevant to me nether the less as Eurostar has a similar deal/setup.

So on one hand the best way is to wire externally straight to a new nte5 plate, or failing that convert the extension to the master.

On the other just plug the OR modem into any extension, but you may suffer a degrade in sync speed or you may not? To be honest if the speed is NOT impacted too much then obviously this would also be my preferred option, as its a 5 second job! I'm just not clear on why BT say this will not work. Regardless the OR engineer will want to play with the master socket and replace it with the VDSL plate at some point.

But I'm still confused on that lol. Surely the faceplate is wired to something and its not just a case of them unscrewing the old one and replacing, what about the extension in my place, i'm sure thats wired into it?

If you've had enough of me i understand and i won't ask anymore questions wink

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200

Edited by bIOforger (Mon 20-Apr-15 19:47:07)

Standard User trolleybus
(committed) Mon 20-Apr-15 19:26:14
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
It is a Lego construction job which shouldn't tax anyone too much he is able to use a screwdriver.

The installation engineering will carefully disconnects the lower half of the master socket which may or may not have extension wiring attached to it. This reveals a test socket. He then plugs in a filtered faceplate which contains the socket which your modem [or router] is plugged into and has the ability to accept the lower half of the original faceplate. At no point is anything dewired.

This simple task means that downstream of the master socket you won't need any filters nor will you be able to use the salve sockets for internet usage.

You are quite entitled to reverse the process and remove the filtered faceplate enabling you to use any slave socket for an internet service but all sockets used with a voice product will need a filter. It is not an ideal arrangement and may cost you some download speed.

You can get to the master socket official shifted but it's a pricey job costing in excess of a £100. Getting the drop wire replaced is almost impossible at any price.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 20-Apr-15 19:40:49
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
Have a look at this video about the old iPlate. The VDSL2 filter plate fits in exactly the same way, assuming you have an NTE5 master socket. That's the one where the bottom half can clearly be unscrewed and removed.

The VDSL2 filter plate is considerably bulkier than the iPlate and does a different job altogether. (Though it does include the iPlate technology). Why I say to watch the iPlate video is because you can see what happens to the extension wires that are attached to the normal faceplate smile. The various parts with the VDSL2 filter instead of the iPlate, but without any extension wiring, are shown in the link in my earlier post.

You can see my master plus filter on this page, though I have no extensions.

Does that help clarify things?

All the engineer does at your house is fit the VDSL filter, supply and connect the Openreach modem, and test that works and gets around the expected sync speed.

Note that in general with the Openreach modem you aren't able to check the stats in the way you can on ADSLx. There are ways round that but that's a different subject altogether.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 60000/16961kbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM
Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 20-Apr-15 20:04:36
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Cheers, nice site you have there by the way. Yea it does, but now i know my sockets are the 68mm wide old style ones (LJU?) so not NTE5 (house was built in 84).

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200

Edited by bIOforger (Mon 20-Apr-15 21:29:09)

Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Mon 20-Apr-15 20:15:13
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
Have a look at this video from MyMateVince https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrbMpIW-BsU


____________________________________________________________________________Information_without_perspective_is_a_higher_form_of_ignorance________
Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 20-Apr-15 21:05:34
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: trolleybus] [link to this post]
 
What do you mean by the drop wire?

Oh you mean the line into the house? well i was hoping it could be spliced into, so that they could do an external install into my PC room, so not replacing it.

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200

Edited by bIOforger (Mon 20-Apr-15 21:33:03)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 20-Apr-15 23:28:14
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by bIOforger:
Yea it does, but now i know my sockets are the 68mm wide old style ones (LJU?) so not NTE5 (house was built in 84).
Thanks re the site. But "Yea it does"? Do you mean just the extensions are 68mm, or the master as well. As far as I know there isn't a 68mm NTE5. The size of the extensions doesn't matter.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 60000/16961kbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM
Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 20-Apr-15 23:33:07
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Yea it does, as in your link made things clearer re. NTE5

But my master is 68mm, so an LJU master socket. One of these, but without the BT logo;

http://www.plus.net/images/support/broadband/btmaste...

I haven't got NTE5.

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200

Edited by bIOforger (Mon 20-Apr-15 23:42:23)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 20-Apr-15 23:46:38
Print Post

Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
He's got a slight error in that vid.

When he talks about just removing the bell wire rather than fitting the iPlate, he says that there could then be a problem if you move from ADSLx to FTTC, as some old phones won't ring.

In a way that's true, but only if the move to FTTC includes the fitting of the VDSL2 faceplate, so obviating the need for filters at the extensions. Retaining the extension filter for a phone that doesn't ring with the bell wire removed will keep it working. (For those who don't know, any decent normal dangly filter makes the bell wire redundant anyway. A tiny few don't).

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 60000/16961kbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 20-Apr-15 23:56:50
Print Post

Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
Then the engineer will fit one, plus the VDSL2 filter to go with it. You need to use your powers of persuasion to get them to fit the new master where your extension currently is.

That might mean he has to do a bit of messing at the existing master, as you shouldn't have two masters in the circuitry, and if all the extensions are wired independently from there there's a bit of work to do. If they are all daisy-chained from there it's possibly a bit easier. (Either remove the "Master" circuitry from it or replace it with a bog-standard extension socket. Plus connect a return pair from the new master).

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 60000/16961kbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM
Standard User bIOforger
(member) Tue 21-Apr-15 00:21:09
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Yes... well this is option 2 in my persuasion plan smile Option 1 is try to get him to go external, directly to my PC room with the OR modem/+net router. I doubt this will happen though smile

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200

Edited by bIOforger (Tue 21-Apr-15 00:49:31)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 21-Apr-15 00:49:43
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
As long as you ordered the Data Extension Kit you stand a chance.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 60000/16961kbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM
Standard User bIOforger
(member) Tue 21-Apr-15 01:24:52
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I did yup, fingers crossed wink

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200
Standard User trolleybus
(committed) Tue 21-Apr-15 06:44:46
Print Post

Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by bIOforger:
What do you mean by the drop wire?

Oh you mean the line into the house? well i was hoping it could be spliced into, so that they could do an external install into my PC room, so not replacing it.


When repositioning a master socket by an OR engineer it is often the better option to abandon all external and internal wiring and run a new cable from the pole to the new master socket position. I was very lucky in so much as when I had FTTC installed, this is what the OR engineer was prepared to do but then he wasn't a contractor. I personally call the piece of wire from the pole to the exterior of the property a drop wire, whether this is the right term to use, I wouldn't know.

I see that you would be happy to have the same rearrangement except to have a joint created at the end of the drop wire, abandoning all existing wiring and running new cabling to a master socket in a position desired. This is exactly what happened for my neighbour and that was a engineer from Kelly's!

However for my MIL, the installation engineer [Kelly] was not prepared to do anything other than to renew the master socket. I had to subsequently make the best out of a pigs ear. So what you would like and what you might eventually get, is very much a lottery. You can reduce the odds though by ordering the Data Extension Kit.
Standard User bIOforger
(member) Tue 21-Apr-15 10:42:05
Print Post

Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: trolleybus] [link to this post]
 
Except mine doesn't come from a pole, its underground and comes up into the front of the house.

Yup i really hope this happens for me, as the other alternatives really won't be any good!

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200
Standard User trolleybus
(committed) Tue 21-Apr-15 11:21:12
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by bIOforger:
Except mine doesn't come from a pole, its underground and comes up into the front of the house.

Yup i really hope this happens for me, as the other alternatives really won't be any good!


A friend recently moved into a new build house and I "baby sat" for him to deal with the installation engineer. It was an underground supply with a termination point on the exterior of the building. As is common these days, the house was prewired with numerous phone outlets which was prewired into the external termination box. I guess that this would mean that the line could go live without an engineer visit being necessary. However the non standard master socket was not in a suitable position for computer usage.

Mutterings of "it will cost you £150 to re-located the master socket" subsided on the appearance of tea with two sugars and expensive biscuits. After all it was only necessary to disconnect the existing setup at the termination point and run 5 metres of external cable and drill through the wall for the new master socket.

As wireless phones were being used, the fact that all prewired sockets were now dead didn't matter. However it would have been no big deal to run a separate cable to re-connected the prewired phone sockets, replacing the original master socket with a slave. of course.
Standard User bIOforger
(member) Tue 21-Apr-15 14:12:22
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: trolleybus] [link to this post]
 
lol tea and biscuits are already in my persuasion plan. Everyone please cross their fingers as the OR engineer is due next Monday.

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200
Standard User bIOforger
(member) Tue 21-Apr-15 22:56:59
Print Post

Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
One thing i forgot to ask about, once OR have swapped the cabling over for FTTC in the cabinet, will my old ADSL service still work? Logically i would have thought not.

Thinking of the worst case scenario, if something doesn't work as expected or doesn't happen will OR switch it back so that i can use my ADSL again?

Also if all goes to plan whats the quickest way of getting the plusnet account up and running as it looks like i will be without internet for at least a day. How does it work? Can you call them to speed up the process once OR have completed the work?

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Tue 21-Apr-15 23:12:19
Print Post

Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: Eurostar] [link to this post]
 
Not sure about PlusNet specifically however I can discuss both Sky and BT.
You get fibre, they post you a HomeHub / Sky Hub.
You plug this into the broadband line in the same way you connect your existing router.

Nobody comes to your house, changes any sockets, relocates the master, adds on a faceplate etc. If you want to use the Fibre in an extension go right on ahead.

It is recommended to use the master socket for both ADSL and Fibre connections because it gives the best speed.

Fibre installs for Sky / BT are at least definitely Self Install...

I have a feeling that PlusNet may still send out an engineer because they do not have a decent fibre router with a modem built in like BT and Sky... Due to this BT may need to come on site and give you a modem. This would mean 2 devices connected... At this stage they will also change the master socket.

Certainly with other ISPs you get one router which does everything and just plugs into the existing sockets. No separate modem and router. No changes to internal wiring.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 21-Apr-15 23:58:04
Print Post

Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by bIOforger:
One thing i forgot to ask about, once OR have swapped the cabling over for FTTC in the cabinet, will my old ADSL service still work? Logically i would have thought not.
Correct - it won't. There is a filter in the FTTC cabinet that blocks the ADSLx signals.
Thinking of the worst case scenario, if something doesn't work as expected or doesn't happen will OR switch it back so that i can use my ADSL again?
That did happen a few times earlier in the rollout. I haven't seen a case for a couple of years or so. Things can occasionally go wrong that aren't detected at the time but of course that then requires further engineer attention.
Also if all goes to plan whats the quickest way of getting the plusnet account up and running as it looks like i will be without internet for at least a day. How does it work? Can you call them to speed up the process once OR have completed the work?
What makes you think there will be that long a loss of service? Are you seeing "by midnight on Day+1" where "Day" is the date of the engineer visit? That's just a cockup in the information - the midnight is that immediately following 23:59 on "Day". In other words, "Day+1" starts at midnight and ends at 23:59:59.

Your service should stop at the point the engineer does the cabinet work. Once he finishes at your premises then as far as Openreach and BT Wholesale are concerned the job is complete. However the notification to Plusnet may be later. You may need to contact Plusnet to make sure the FTTC has been activated on your account. I think the phone will work throughout except when the engineer is doing the cabinet and master socket work.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 60000/16961kbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM
Standard User bIOforger
(member) Wed 22-Apr-15 00:08:03
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
What makes you think there will be that long a loss of service?
Because OR is booked for the morning of the 27/4 and +net are saying in my order tracker that it will be active the following day. Yep ok i will just call them after OR have finished, thanks.

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200

Edited by bIOforger (Wed 22-Apr-15 00:08:59)

Standard User kasg
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 22-Apr-15 09:22:45
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by bIOforger:
ok i will just call them after OR have finished, thanks.

You might not even need to do that, it might just work, mine did.

Kevin

plusnet Unlimited Fibre - sync approx 67000/20000 at 450m - BQM
Using OpenDNS
Domains and web hosting with TSOHOST
Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 27-Apr-15 13:41:34
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: kasg] [link to this post]
 
All done smile

The job was pretty painless all together, it took a couple of hours all in.

The OR guy turned up promptly, plied him with tea n biscuits, discussed all the options i wanted and he was open to them all. We both decided on option 2. So he relocated the master to the extension in the end with the new i-plate, pinned the data cable on some skirting boards and through a couple of walls to a new data socket in my PC room, so both the modem n router are located there. We both decided going external wasn't a good idea due to limited access down one side of the house, which i knew might be an issue.

Before all that he also tried plugging the OR modem straight into my existing ADSL extension which sync'd at 29/9 on his test socket kit, which as i suspected would be pretty bad as the extension is using cheap phone cable.

So end results are; I'm sync'd at 53/11. The initial ookla speedtest results are 43/11 which is a bit below what i expected (falls in between the BT impacted scale) but its good enough for me seeing as I've been stuck on 4.5MB ADSL forever.

Hopefully that will increase a bit in the "10 day" learning period. I'm approximately 4-500m from the cabinet, this is just a rough guess as i have no idea how the cabling is routed to my house, it could well be more. In which case i believe my sync speed is pretty good?

Kasg you were right, internet was immediately available as soon as we plugged the router in, i left it for 15mins as per instructed.

Thanks again to everyone on this thread for their advice and help.

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 27-Apr-15 14:04:40
Print Post

Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
The BT Wholesale estimator give connection (sync) speeds, not throughput (speedtest) ones.

Don't mess with the connection hoping to improve it until at least Wednesday. However, it is quite likely it will go slower rather than faster anyway. Even under the mythical 10-day training on ADSLx it was designed to start as fast as possible and decrease if necessary.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 60000/16961kbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM
Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 27-Apr-15 14:12:44
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Yep absolutely, i'm not touching anything, its flying along nicely.

So do you think 43/11 is about right for 4-500m from the cabinet. Taking into account the copper into and inside my house is from the 80's.

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200
Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 27-Apr-15 15:18:10
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
5MB/s is just awesome laugh Loving this so far.

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200
Standard User kasg
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 27-Apr-15 16:12:42
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by bIOforger:
So do you think 43/11 is about right for 4-500m from the cabinet. Taking into account the copper into and inside my house is from the 80's.

It's on the low side but not massively so. Your estimates are rather lower than for my (roughly 450m) line but you are still at the bottom half of even your "impacted" estimate so I'd be a little disappointed. As RobertoS says, it won't normally get any better, it starts high and goes down.

Edit: I've just seen your sync is 53/11, not 43/11, so not as bad as I made out. Have you checked your Plusnet line speed?

Kevin

plusnet Unlimited Fibre - sync approx 67000/20000 at 450m - BQM
Using OpenDNS
Domains and web hosting with TSOHOST

Edited by kasg (Mon 27-Apr-15 16:17:49)

Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 27-Apr-15 16:29:37
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: kasg] [link to this post]
 
Estimated line speed:
50Mb (Download speed could vary depending on line conditions. Estimates are the maximum speeds that your phone line can support. These speeds are dependent on the package you choose.) - Checked on 2015-04-13 21:07:58
Current line speed:
78 Mb

NEWNET 8mb MaxDSL Business
NetGear DGN2200
Standard User kasg
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 27-Apr-15 17:11:33
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by bIOforger:
Current line speed:
78 Mb

OK, that's not limiting you then - it hasn't been set yet, it should eventually settle to just below your IP profile, which is just under 97% of your sync speed.

Kevin

plusnet Unlimited Fibre - sync approx 67000/20000 at 450m - BQM
Using OpenDNS
Domains and web hosting with TSOHOST
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Mon 27-Apr-15 17:22:11
Print Post

Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
Before all that he also tried plugging the OR modem straight into my existing ADSL extension which sync'd at 29/9 on his test socket kit, which as i suspected would be pretty bad as the extension is using cheap phone cable.


Just shows why it is important that an engineer visits the premises. Sadly most ISPs now do self-install, so they just ship a router to you and you plug it in... Needless to say I am sure plenty of people are getting much slower speeds than they could be achieving due to using existing extensions.

Important to note is that this extension would have also significantly slowed down your old ADSL service, which you put up with for years.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 27-Apr-15 17:24:29
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ukhardy07:
Sadly most ISPs now do self-install, so they just ship a router to you and you plug it in....
BT Consumer, Sky, TalkTalk and ...?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 60000/16961kbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 27-Apr-15 17:24:57)

Standard User bIOforger
(member) Mon 27-Apr-15 17:30:17
Print Post

Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ukhardy07:
Important to note is that this extension would have also significantly slowed down your old ADSL service, which you put up with for years.
Indeed! i only realised that up until recently, however i did try a long cat5 cable in its place while i was waiting for the fibre install date and it only made a small difference to the ADSL sync speeds; it went up a few hundred kbps from 4.5mbps to ~4.8mbps. So i don't think my internal copper is in particularly good nick, well average at best.

Plusnet unlimited fibre (FTTC) - sync approx 43000/11000kbps @ ~600m

Edited by bIOforger (Mon 27-Apr-15 17:31:13)

Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Tue 28-Apr-15 09:25:09
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: bIOforger] [link to this post]
 
It may have taken time to fully gain the benefits, ie your noise margin reducing and the sync increasing... Usually a few weeks for DLM to kick in once the line improves.
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Tue 28-Apr-15 09:26:52
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by ukhardy07:
Sadly most ISPs now do self-install, so they just ship a router to you and you plug it in....
BT Consumer, Sky, TalkTalk and ...?

Yep, the major FTTC ISPs apart from PlusNet.

There's a tonne of other smaller ISPs but the vast majority of customers are covered by BT, Sky, TT and PlusNet (with BT, Sky and TT having the lions share of that).
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 28-Apr-15 15:29:52
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
I would say a high percentage of users visiting these forums do so to avoid those three. And three it is, despite their size.

You said "most" ISPs, so how about the popular smaller ones here (alphabetically) - AAISP; aquiss; IDNet; vivaciti; Xilo/uno; Zen. Then the 100+ others like Claranet.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync 60000/16961kbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Wed 29-Apr-15 10:56:07
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Re: Master socket relocation for FTTC install


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
OK - I did not put my point across perfectly.

If you look at the UK the vast majority of people who have FTTC will be with Sky, BT or TalkTalk. The majority of people will experience a self install.

"Most ISPs" was misleading.
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