Moving to Plusnet - Good idea?

Hey all,

Looking to move away from Virgin, and was looking at Plusnet as I was with them years ago without issue.

Researching now though i'm seeing a lot of negative stuff regarding their "new" network etc

I've read that there's a poorer experience with static IPs (which i'd need to use) as well as a bunch of threads on their forums complaining about high latency / routing issues.

I was hoping someone on PN with a static IP setup could comment on the above, IE what's your route / latency like to say 1.1.1.1 / bbc.co.uk?

Also, is there any benefit (network wise) to taking their business package over Residential, other than supposed quicker customer support / OR fault progression?

Thanks in advance!
Mark

11ms to 1.1.1.1 and bbc.co.uk. I have a static IP address and have had no problems whatsoever. I am not aware of any technical reason for taking the business package, it's just the support level. Plusnet has been rock-solid and cheap for me, I can't complain.

Tracing route to one.one.one.one [1.1.1.1]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms zyxel.com [192.168.1.2]
2 11 ms 10 ms 11 ms 84.93.253.88
3 11 ms 11 ms 11 ms 84.93.253.95
4 11 ms 11 ms 11 ms 195.99.125.144
5 11 ms 12 ms 11 ms peer7-et-3-1-4.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.252.168]
6 13 ms 12 ms 12 ms 109.159.253.95
7 14 ms 11 ms 10 ms one.one.one.one [1.1.1.1]

Trace complete.

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [151.101.128.81]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms 2 ms <1 ms zyxel.com [192.168.1.2]
2 10 ms 10 ms 10 ms 84.93.253.88
3 11 ms 11 ms 11 ms 84.93.253.95
4 11 ms 12 ms 12 ms 195.99.125.144
5 11 ms 11 ms 11 ms peer7-et-3-0-4.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.252.160]
6 12 ms 11 ms 12 ms peer5-te0-9-0-32.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [195.99.126.81]
7 11 ms 10 ms 11 ms 151.101.128.81

Trace complete.

Edited by kasg (Thu 18-Apr-19 18:41:52)

According to this thread from late last year you can't get the entertainments package if you have a business connection (although you can get a VAT invoice!).

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

According to this thread from late last year you can't get the entertainments package if you have a business connection (although you can get a VAT invoice!).

Gosh yes, I remember that palaver! If you need a VAT invoice, you need to go business.

Which is more expensive, the net cost of a business plan or the gross cost of the non-business one and swallow the Vat?

In reply to a post by kasg:

11ms to 1.1.1.1 and bbc.co.uk. I have a static IP address and have had no problems whatsoever. I am not aware of any technical reason for taking the business package, it's just the support level. Plusnet has been rock-solid and cheap for me, I can't complain.

Tracing route to one.one.one.one [1.1.1.1]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms zyxel.com [192.168.1.2]
2 11 ms 10 ms 11 ms 84.93.253.88
3 11 ms 11 ms 11 ms 84.93.253.95
4 11 ms 11 ms 11 ms 195.99.125.144
5 11 ms 12 ms 11 ms peer7-et-3-1-4.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.252.168]
6 13 ms 12 ms 12 ms 109.159.253.95
7 14 ms 11 ms 10 ms one.one.one.one [1.1.1.1]

Trace complete.

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [151.101.128.81]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms 2 ms <1 ms zyxel.com [192.168.1.2]
2 10 ms 10 ms 10 ms 84.93.253.88
3 11 ms 11 ms 11 ms 84.93.253.95
4 11 ms 12 ms 12 ms 195.99.125.144
5 11 ms 11 ms 11 ms peer7-et-3-0-4.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.252.160]
6 12 ms 11 ms 12 ms peer5-te0-9-0-32.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [195.99.126.81]
7 11 ms 10 ms 11 ms 151.101.128.81

Trace complete.

Thanks for this, much appreciated, I think I'll be giving them a go

Do PN still have the graphs / stats that show usage levels / users connected or did they go when the new network came into play?

Cheers!
Mark

No avoid PN at all cost cos of their nightmare billing issues never gonna to resolved.

Hyperbole apart, it's certainly necessary to keep a close eye on your billing especially for the first 2 or 3 months.

They stopped displaying user connection data quite some time ago, I think at least partly on the grounds of sensitivity of trading information.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

No avoid PN at all cost cos of their nightmare billing issues never gonna to resolved.

Fore every person reporting "nightmare billing issues" there are probably 1000 that have had no issues. I have had none.

Plusnet are playing down the Billing problems , its larger than most think i been with them 10 years and every time they a big update it goes wrong .
I moved house in November 2018 and have NOT had a bill since , and they have NO idea how to fix it all you will get is apologies , and its the same when customers change packages , or add a extra item .
I would not be surprised if they dont get another fine soon

Edited by sneekyhen (Fri 19-Apr-19 18:22:58)

In reply to a post by kasg:

For every person reporting "nightmare billing issues" there are probably 1000 that have had no issues. I have had none.

Agreed, and those who describe their experience as a nightmare should have been in my shoes some years ago when I administered billing for just over 500 separate sites/accounts via 'BT OneBill'. The sight of a grown man reduced to tears is not a pretty one 8^).

Edited by longedge (Fri 19-Apr-19 23:20:33)

Just for comparison, here are is the output for me of "mtr -r -c10" to 1.1.1.1 and bbc.co.uk. My pings (from Scotland) are near enough 20ms. (Sorry for the formatting. It looked fine on my terminal.)

$ sudo mtr -r -c10 1.1.1.1
Start: 2019-04-20T08:48:01+0100
HOST: mini Loss% Snt Last Avg Best Wrst StDev
1.|-- router 0.0% 10 1.0 1.4 1.0 3.6 0.8
2.|-- gi12-0-1-451.ptn-ag04.plu 0.0% 10 18.7 19.1 18.0 25.6 2.3
3.|-- 84.93.253.87 0.0% 10 19.2 19.1 18.6 20.0 0.4
4.|-- 195.99.125.144 0.0% 10 19.2 18.8 18.6 19.2 0.2
5.|-- peer7-et-0-0-4.telehouse. 0.0% 10 19.1 20.9 18.7 30.1 3.7
6.|-- 109.159.253.95 0.0% 10 19.8 20.0 19.2 20.4 0.3
7.|-- one.one.one.one 0.0% 10 19.4 19.3 18.8 19.8 0.3

$ sudo mtr -r -c10 bbc.co.uk
Start: 2019-04-20T08:48:47+0100
HOST: mini Loss% Snt Last Avg Best Wrst StDev
1.|-- router 0.0% 10 1.5 1.2 1.0 1.6 0.2
2.|-- gi12-0-1-451.ptn-ag04.plu 0.0% 10 18.3 18.3 18.0 18.5 0.1
3.|-- 84.93.253.87 0.0% 10 19.1 18.9 18.6 19.1 0.2
4.|-- 195.99.125.140 0.0% 10 18.9 19.0 18.4 19.5 0.4
5.|-- peer7-et-3-0-1.telehouse. 0.0% 10 19.1 20.8 18.8 33.0 4.4
6.|-- peer5-te0-9-0-32.telehous 0.0% 10 19.6 23.7 19.4 26.6 3.5
7.|-- 151.101.64.81 0.0% 10 19.1 19.0 18.8 19.6 0.2

I have a static IP. I don't know if it is related, but, while my sync to the cabinet never drops, I lose my PPPOE connection to plusnet about 15 times a month.
I have pretty alarming packet sometimes on my BQM.
My billing is OK, except that Plusnet have the wrong name for my package (although they supply the correct none, and charge something like the correct amount). I'm frightened to tell them...

Their email service is a pure joke.

Thanks for the responses everyone! Seems a bit hit and miss, I'm guessing you guys who aren't getting bills are still getting charged?

My other option was TTB as I've only heard good things about their network / backhaul but the 24 month contract puts me off.

While we're at it, what are peoples thoughts on TTB? Any latency / routing feedback there?

Cheers
Mark

In reply to a post by Mark07:

My other option was TTB as I've only heard good things about their network / backhaul but the 24 month contract puts me off.

Im on a 12 month contract with talktalk 80/20 fibre package but had to call them, No issues regarding peering/BB here in north west london (NW7) but i guess every area is diffrent just like Virgin Media's local UBR system.

Keep in mind that plusnet uses the BT Infrastructure for peering https://www.peeringdb.com/net/281

Edited by francisuk25 (Mon 22-Apr-19 01:28:44)

Thanks I think I'll give them a call, no harm asking! Out of the 2id rather go TTB if I can get a 12 month contract, did you have to pay more for 12m over 24m?

Also TTB don't do any blocking do they? Not that i often frequent torrent sites etc but I've heard plusnet customers get caught in it due to (as you mentioned) the BT routing / peering, I'd just like to avoid getting caught in anything else the courts decide we're not allowed to access in the future!

Edited by Mark07 (Mon 22-Apr-19 13:40:19)

Also TTB don't do any blocking do they?

TT certainly block certain torrent sites as do all other major ISPs (in terms of number of subscribers), this being in response to UK court orders rather than peering or routing. I have no idea as t whether this extends to TTB . Using a VPN avoids such problems.

In reply to a post by Mark07:

Did you have to pay more for 12m over 24m?

Yeah but personally i just didnt wont to be tied into something that was over 2 years with no information on how congested my local bt exchange was but lucky since i gone with talktalk since august im more then happy to be tied into an 24m / 2 years with them (at the moment) however it maybe a different case for you as in how congested is your local bt exchange for talktalk.

In reply to a post by Mark07:

Also TTB don't do any blocking do they? Not that i often frequent torrent sites etc but I've heard plusnet customers get caught in it due to (as you mentioned) the BT routing / peering, I'd just like to avoid getting caught in anything else the courts decide we're not allowed to access in the future!

TalkTalk do block torrents sites and If i try and acess one of the most popular torrent sites, I get this redirecting me https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/Articles/Blocked...

Edited by francisuk25 (Mon 22-Apr-19 18:05:38)

I have been with PN for about 20 years.
In that time it has been mainly plane sailing, but of course stuff goes wrong. PN used to be good at problem solving and resolution of issues.
However....

You should know :
Support is nothing like it used to be. Nothing.
You will rarely if ever get the same person engaging with you twice on a ticket.
Staff appear to not have time to read tickets. They keep on asking questions the answer to have been documented by me or a colleague in the ticket already. This happens over and over again, more than I thought was reasonable or that I have ever seen before. At some point you may well conclude this is wasting your time, and theirs.
Good luck having tickets resolved.
I usually go for a year or so with no issues.... until you get one then expect to waste much time.
Email - is not useless - it's worse than that. Unable to resolve a trivial issue in 6 weeks or so, I have recently told them to close the ticket - I gave up on that one. Actually I simply switched to a reliable email provider for the issue in question. Even PN staff will read you out word for word a script about how they only provide email for reasons of being classified as an ISP and actually their email service is very poor, I paraphrase, as the forum censor flag will simply be invoked
DSL line going down and outages of 5-8 hours on multiple instances - sadly, recently I had a ticket open for about 8 weeks. Too long and too silly to detail. PN spend too much time blaming BT IMHO, in the past they used to just get stuff done.
Needless to say all the red herrings plusnet threw at me were just that red herrings, it was of course just the copper that was the issue. PN communication with BT is shockingly bad.
If you like the idea of being told you are "wrong" only to have a colleague contradict this later then sign up to PN immediately !

Traceroutes ... mine look the same as other posters.

I notice your interest in 1.1.1.1
That's what caught my attention.
Last week I had shocking performance. Looked to me like possible dodgy DNS servers. And as you have no doubt read PN have a background in having questions raised about their DNS server performance, or lack of. Given I already knew this I could not help myself on questioning their DNS.
Performance got so bad that on multiple devices we saw DNS lookups totally failing.
I called PN. Told me the usual, nothing is wrong. DNS was not raised by them. Seems odd to me given the issues. So I mentioned "is DNS ok ?" - yes I was told. This year I have learnt to ignore level 1 support.. therefore...

Meanwhile I put one PC on google DNS another on PN DNS. Google worked well PN was failing repeatedly all over the place. I changed my router to use google DNS. All devices started to work. Over about half an hour PN DNS was shocking to the point of failure.
Downloaded myself a copy of namebench and guess what appears in the Probably Broken list but one of the PN DNS servers.
Over the past few days I have rerun the namebench report and PN DNS servers and their IPs are synonymous with the words "Probably Broken".
Bear in mind namebench looks at about 4,500 name servers and the list of probably broken is usually about only 4-6 items. (The time it was 6 items PN had primary and secondary listed as broken)
Avg response times with PN DNS severs are 263-300ms and I'm on FTTC with 9-12ms ping. Google, Cloudflare or any other DNS server are, of course, only a fraction.
Clearly you'll use something else. But frankly why use an ISP that has such poor performance in email & DNS in addition you have probably gathered I'm no longer a fan of their support.
I feel sorry for support staff, I suspect the blame/cause is with management.
Did I raise DNS as a ticket ? - no - I have learnt my lesson - it's support.... but not as you know it. So different from before, shame.
On the plus side find a PN customer on their DNS - show them how to switch...to CloudFlare they'll thank you, in fact they are pleasantly shocked.

In the past I would gladly recommend people to PN, I no longer do that. In fact if I identify an ISP I am happy with I will cancel, only lethargy has me as a PN customer.

Sorry for all the doom and gloom - sadly that's my PN 2019 experience, 2017 had a dodgy moment.
I hope they have a rethink of their support but I'll not be hanging around in that vain hope I suspect.
I am now thinking anything crazy I have read about PN support must be true as the thing that baffles me the most is PN contradicting PN over and over - very odd. It's as if the left hand has no clue what the right is doing.

So in summary : No.
I'll be interested to follow your journey. What about Zen ?

In reply to a post by pi12ca:

I have a static IP. I don't know if it is related, but, while my sync to the cabinet never drops, I lose my PPPOE connection to plusnet about 15 times a month.

I lose mine perhaps once a year.

In reply to a post by pi12ca:

I have pretty alarming packet sometimes on my BQM.

I think mine is pretty reasonable (see sig).

In reply to a post by pi12ca:

Their email service is a pure joke.

I have never had cause to use it and would never use any ISP's email service.

P.S. I don't use Plusnet's DNS, I have used OpenDNS for many years.

Edited by kasg (Mon 22-Apr-19 20:37:15)

Great, thank you everyone, I think i'll give TTB a call and see what they can do in the way of a 12/m contract.

Thanks again!