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Standard User ajseeds
(newbie) Tue 12-May-20 11:32:15
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Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[link to this post]
 
Followers of Post Office will know its dismal reputation, but they have added a new issue on ADSL2+ line, reduced upload speeds, to the cut in download speeds introduced some months back. I have a number of Post Office lines for reasons that have more to do with billing than performance. When Post Office moved from reselling BT to using the Talk Talk network the migration disaster has been well documented. However, things then settled down and on 21CN exchanges with Talk Talk presence there was even some increase in rates with the move from ADSL to ADSL2+. Perhaps conscious of their reputation Post Office now market a product called "Unlimited Broadband" with assurances of no usage caps. I have noted two changes on several lines on different exchanges since 2018. First, the noise margins have been increased to bring the downlink Sync speed to under 8 Mb/s (I have lines which have margins over 14 dB now). Throughput runs at 6-7 Mb/s most of the time. Second, and more recently, although the uplink Sync is the usual 1.024 Mb/s, the uplink throughput will not go above 0.5 Mb/s, used to be 0.8 Mb/s.

The Post Office web-site has now deleted all references to uplink speeds, taking full advantage of Ofcom's decision not to regulate these.

The Post Office technical people deny it's happening, but measurements don't lie.
Standard User Acegio
(member) Sat 16-May-20 21:11:51
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: ajseeds] [link to this post]
 
Not sure if all subscribers are getting a reduction, this is mine:-


Test result


test 2
ISP Representative uno
(isp) Sat 16-May-20 21:44:48
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: ajseeds] [link to this post]
 
Posting your full stats firstly would help as speedtests don't tell enough. TTB lines on ADSL2+ are capped to 1.024Mb upload. They don't offer higher than this as seen with BT Wholesale unless you're opting for an Annex M service.

Matt

uno Communications
t: 0333 773 7700
uno Speedtest

Edited by uno (Sat 16-May-20 22:09:13)

The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).


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Standard User ianhMk2
(newbie) Sun 17-May-20 14:26:52
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: uno] [link to this post]
 
Not sure if this is the correct thread, I am with po broadband.
Recently I too have noticed poor speeds on download.
I see that my connection is g.dmt - giving a 7616000 download speed.
snr is 16db and loop atten is 23db.
With plusnet I was getting 17mbps (adsl2 I aasume).
POBroadband never was as good as plusnet, but this sucks.
The modem is the same -vigor 2820.
The line appears to be locked to g.dmt, if I try to force ADSL2 is simply does not connect.
I have noticed what I assume are ppp hangs, quite frequently.
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Sun 17-May-20 15:59:35
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: ianhMk2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ianhMk2:
I see that my connection is g.dmt - giving a 7616000 download speed.
snr is 16db and loop atten is 23db.


16dB SNR (margin) on the downstream or on the upstream?

Edited by 4M2 (Sun 17-May-20 16:39:22)

Standard User ianhMk2
(newbie) Mon 18-May-20 11:02:45
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Hi, thanks - the figure is from the online status page of my draytek 2820 router, I assume that it is the rrouters received SNR. I guess if it knew the snr at the exchange then it would give both exchange and router figures. The router manual does not give any clarification on the value.

FWIW I tried the router supplied when I switched, and it also only does vanilla adsl. I dont keep proper records of link speed, but I have a speedtest report from march of 12mbps download, so that must have still been some variety of adsl2. PO broadband never wqas as fast as plusnet, despite nothing changing at my end when I switched (aside from username/password). I think it started off as 14mbit as opposed to 17 for plusnet (and bt before it, IIRC)

I have noticed regular drop outs in service, with the adsl connection remaining up. I see that there is reported flakiness in a higher transport layer with this supplier,
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Mon 18-May-20 11:43:22
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: ianhMk2] [link to this post]
 
For more detailed stats you could try this, however its for Draytech Vigor 2600 / 2800 routers, it may work?
telnet into the CLI
telnet://192.168.1.1
The required command is:
> show adsl
Default username "admin", the password is left blank.

I guess a downstream 16dB SNR margin on ADSL2+ with an attenuation of 23dB may only give you a sync speed of ~7.6Mbps....in which case you now perhaps have issues with the line....

Edited by 4M2 (Mon 18-May-20 12:08:55)

Standard User ianhMk2
(newbie) Mon 18-May-20 12:51:24
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Thanks, here's the diagnostic using that command:
> show adsl --------------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A) ----------- Running Mode : G.DMT State : SHOWTIME

DS Actual Rate : 7616000 bps US Actual Rate : 896000 bps

DS Attainable Rate : 8736000 bps US Attainable Rate : 1148000 bps

DS Path Mode : Interleave US Path Mode : Interleave

DS Interleave Depth : 64 US Interleave Depth : 4

NE Current Attenuation : 23 dB Cur SNR Margin : 16 dB

DS actual PSD : 19. 9 dB US actual PSD : 11. 4 dB

ADSL Firmware Version : 232201_A

-------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------

Far Current Attenuation : 10 dB Far SNR Margin : 13 dB

CO ITU Version[0] : 00004946 CO ITU Version[1] : 0000544e

DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR : < IFTN >

>

does this indicate a line problem?
Cheers
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Mon 18-May-20 14:12:01
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: ianhMk2] [link to this post]
 
Looks like you are doing OK with the G.DMT (ADSL1) modulation with an uncapped upstream sync speed? It's a mystery that you were previously getting ~14Mbps download throughput and then ~12Mbps download throughput with the Post Office which perhaps suggests you were initially connected using ADSL2+ modulation with a high downstream SNR margin maybe caused by a line issue.

As you say with plusnet and BT you were getting ~17Mbps download throughput on a BTw connection but presumably now on TTB LLU (?) things are not looking so good.

Just one other thought, perhaps the router is wrongly reporting G.DMT modulation and/or the 16dB downstream SNR margin.
Standard User ianhMk2
(newbie) Mon 18-May-20 14:27:10
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I tried the po broadband supplied router, and got g.dmt and (from memory) a slightly lower lownlink speed - so I suspect the draytek is being honest.

Not being into adsl technology some of the acronyms are new to me.

I did check the speeds after moving from plusnet to po, and put the initial loss of speed below the previous 17mbps link down to line retraining. but it has gotten far worse.

I wonder if the noise is increasing/has increased due to the uptake of vdsl?, perhaps a common mode choke would help?. There is no crackling on the plain old telephone line receiver- so if there is noise it is up in the adsl band rather than a dodgy connection.
Cheers
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Mon 18-May-20 14:47:32
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: ianhMk2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ianhMk2:
I wonder if the noise is increasing/has increased due to the uptake of vdsl?,


Could be - I have that problem, have to force ADSL2 rather than ADSL2+ in order to reduce error seconds, serious error seconds and the occasional loss of sync on my line. If FTTP was available I would have it but not the half hearted idea of FTTC which is currently available.
Standard User ianhMk2
(newbie) Mon 18-May-20 15:21:54
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I see I can get Virgin 108mb for a few quid more than po broadband (less than £20 per month, 12 month contract on 'broadbandchoices' website), since my po contract runs out next month its starting to look attractive, I dont need that much speed - but I am not the pc gamer in my house...

I tried forcing adsl2, but it wouldnt get passed the handshaking stage.

Interpretting your previous comment, po broadband is a rebadged local loop unbundled talktalk?. Are talk talk llu connection often slower than BT ones? is there any way of knowing if a connection will be carried by talk talk or BT?
Standard User Realalemadrid
(committed) Mon 18-May-20 15:33:50
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: ianhMk2] [link to this post]
 
Post Office broadband has always had a bad reputation, you should consider switching to another supplier. You have the maximum interleaved sync speed for ADSL (G.DMT) of 7.616 Mbps, the question is why are you on ADSL and not ADSL2+ which would give much better speeds. Talk Talk speeds should not be any different for equivalent product types. Unless the ISP gives you the information it is not obvious who is providing the connection, all I can say for certain is that Virgin will not be using Talk Talk or BT.smile
Standard User ianhMk2
(newbie) Mon 18-May-20 15:54:47
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: Realalemadrid] [link to this post]
 
Hi, what speeds do you reckon my connection should support please?

BTW I tried putting a common mode filter in the incoming line, it made no difference to any figure.
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Mon 18-May-20 16:06:58
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: ianhMk2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ianhMk2:
Interpretting your previous comment, po broadband is a rebadged local loop unbundled talktalk?. Are talk talk llu connection often slower than BT ones? is there any way of knowing if a connection will be carried by talk talk or BT?


I use TTB broadband together with BTw line rental - uno is my provider for both. This is a partial LLU sertup (SMPF) and from experience the TTB internet speeds are always very good and reliable 24/7. Since I'm on SMPF I can not advise you on how to check whether you are on a Post Office/TTB full LLU (MPF) connection - perhaps somebody else on this forum can give you a definitive answer.
ISP Representative uno
(isp) Mon 18-May-20 16:15:48
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 4M2:
Since I'm on SMPF I can not advise you on how to check whether you are on a Post Office/TTB full LLU (MPF) connection - perhaps somebody else on this forum can give you a definitive answer.


Pop the line number in at https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL - if it errors, it will be a MPF line.

If it returns results, it will be SMPF.

Matt

uno Communications
t: 0333 773 7700
uno Speedtest
The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Mon 18-May-20 16:27:55
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: uno] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by uno:
Pop the line number in at https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL - if it errors, it will be a MPF line.

If it returns results, it will be SMPF.

Matt


Cheers Matt, thanks for the clarity - I've done that previously from my SMPF line with no errors.
Standard User Realalemadrid
(committed) Mon 18-May-20 19:07:27
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: ianhMk2] [link to this post]
 
You will not change the speed with any filter, it is capped at 7.616 Mbps, that is why the SNRM is very high at 16dB.

As for expected speeds try the BT speed checker, I think you will need to use the address checker because the phone number check will not recognise a TalkTalk line number. This is the address checker link ….
Address checker

There is also an estimated speed checker on Kitz broadband site, it is only a guide because the attenuation figure goes up by a few dB on ADSL2+ but it will give a reasonable estimate.
Kitz estimator

If you got 17Mbps with Plusnet on ADSL2+ there is no reason why you should be suffering such low speeds on PO broadband. What speeds did they say you could get when you signed up?
Standard User ianhMk2
(newbie) Mon 18-May-20 20:21:36
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: uno] [link to this post]
 
Thanks Guys!.
When I try
https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL
I get ' linechecker is not availabel, try later.'

..and this was what I got from
https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL/...
for my address.


Featured Products Downstream Line Rate(Mbps) Upstream Line Rate (Mbps) Downstream Handback
Threshold(Mbps) WBC FTTC Availability Date WBC SOGEA Availability Date
High Low High Low
VDSL Range A (Clean) 51.1 35 8.8 6 32.3 Available Available
VDSL Range B (Impacted) 49.4 31.8 8.7 5.5 25 Available Available
Featured Products Downstream Line Rate(Mbps) Upstream Line Rate (Mbps) Downstream Range (Mbps) Availability Date FTTP Install Process
FTTP on Demand 330 30 -- Available --
ADSL Products Downstream Line Rate (Mbps) Upstream Line Rate (Mbps) Downstream Range(Mbps) Availability Date
WBC ADSL 2+ Up to 17 -- 10 to 19.5 Available
WBC ADSL2+ Annex M Up to 17 Up to 1.5 10 to 19.5 Available
ADSL Max Up to 7.5 -- 6.5 to 8 Available
WBC Fixed Rate 2 -- -- Available
Fixed Rate 2 -- -- Available
Other Offerings Availability Date
VDSL Multicast Available
ADSL Multicast Available

Which may mean I should be getting what I got - a 17mbps download link speed.

I did try the attenuation-vs adsl2 download speed graph, it was that that gave me the idea that the problems was a the exchange end limiting things - however I dont know how the SNR couples into the reckoning - or indeed if my SNR is particularly poor.
(https://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/graph-ADSL-speed-versus-line-loss-distance)

So on the whole I am non the wiser as to the cause of my slowdown.

Cheers!
Standard User Realalemadrid
(committed) Tue 19-May-20 08:50:36
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: ianhMk2] [link to this post]
 
The reason your speed is lower is because at some point since switching to Post Office your service has been changed to ADSL (G.DMT or ADSL Max) either deliberately or in error. The ADSL Max line on the checker shows a range of 6.5 to 8Mbps which agrees with your sync speed of 7.616 Mbps (If your line was not interleaved you could get 8.128 Mbps)

You said that you previously had higher speeds 12 or 14 Mbps, these must have been on ADSL2+ so why has it changed to ADSL?. This seems to agree with the first post in this thread where the poster says what he believes are ADSL2+ lines but the speeds have been reduced but no router stats have been provided to confirm if the lines have changed to ADSL.

There is nothing wrong with your line or your SNR you should be getting 17Mbps as you did with PlusNet.

I don't suppose you can get any explanation from PO customer support but if they have downgraded your service that must be a valid reason to leave the contract.

Have you considered upgrading to FTTC? Your line would support the 40/10 FTTC service.

I have recently returned to PlusNet on a new customer deal and am paying the equivalent of £25 a month including line rental for 80/20 FTTC.
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Tue 19-May-20 15:57:03
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: Realalemadrid] [link to this post]
 
Do you think that ianhMk2's G.DMT downstream interleaved sync speed of 7616000bps with an attenuation of 23dB and a possible sync time (?) SNR margin of 15dB looks right? Its ages since I've used ADSL MAX (Plusnet Pro uncapped upstream sync speed) but I never had a downstream sync time SNR margin of more than 9dB although I am on a longer line with a G.DMT attenuation of 32dB and always got full sync speeds.

Is the TTB kit in the exchange using the high SNR margin to limit his G.DMT downstream sync speed and/or provide maximum stability. Or is the high router reported SNR margin due to other reasons?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 19-May-20 16:43:06
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Plenty of spare margin as hitting the max speed of ADSL that it appears they are limited to.

Answer migrate away from Post Office or if they like Post Office based on the VDSL2 estimates posted that would give speeds above ASDL2+ and a lot faster than ADSL.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Tue 19-May-20 17:30:36
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
If migrating away from what appears to be an ADSL TTB MPF connection to, for example, a BT or plusnet FTTC and line rental deal, would the move involve a connection to a BTw ADSL2+ service first? If it does that would ensure that the poster's line is good, at least on the D-Side, if he again got a 17Mbps download throughput speed, good stats and a stable connection.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 19-May-20 17:53:02
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
No

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User ianhMk2
(newbie) Tue 19-May-20 18:22:53
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for all your input guys,
Conclusion - my problem is that for no apparent reason (in terms of snr or attenuation) po broadband have downgraded my line to vanilla adsl, when in the past it ran happily at 17mps speeds.

It is the same if I use the router that they supplied, or my vigor 2820.

As I didnt bother logging snr or attenuation when it worked properly I cant say for sure that the line has not changed,

However those in the know appear to agree that it should still be capable of supporting adsl2+ modulation.

I raised a ticket with po broadband, but they have not got back to me -perhaps they are short staffed with the virus. I will try rattling their cage again. Failing that, next month I will be out of contract and move to another supplier.
Cheers
Ian
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Tue 19-May-20 18:22:56
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
That's interesting because when I migrated from a BTw plusnet ADSL2+ connection to a TTB SMPF ADSL2+ connection several years ago, after the move, I initially I remained on a BT based broadband service for a week or so before the SMPF was enabled.

Guess it's different for MPF, FTTC, etc. migrations.
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Tue 19-May-20 18:34:34
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: ianhMk2] [link to this post]
 
What are the technical details of that "Virgin 108mb" deal you mentioned earlier?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 19-May-20 19:08:13
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
It is different for FTTC and even with your old move should have all been done on the same day

TalkTalk SMPF is rare which might explain it, most TalkTalk ADSL2+ is MPF

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User ianhMk2
(newbie) Tue 19-May-20 19:23:29
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Hi, I dont know the technical dertails of the 108mbut virgin deal, here is the link
preview<dot>tinyurl<dot>com/ycdjrdnl
Cheers
Ian
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Tue 19-May-20 20:02:29
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: ianhMk2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ianhMk2:
Hi, I dont know the technical dertails of the 108mbut virgin deal, here is the link
preview<dot>tinyurl<dot>com/ycdjrdnl
Cheers
Ian


Looks like "Virgin Media - M100 Fibre Broadband" - I thought it might be cable when you mentioned gaming (perhaps latency issues rather than pure speed alone)

Hope you don't jump from the "frying pan into the fire" with "fibre" at this particularly difficult time!

Best of luck.
Standard User ajseeds
(newbie) Wed 29-Jul-20 23:25:28
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Re: Now Post Office is cutting Upload Rates


[re: ajseeds] [link to this post]
 
Further, I now have several ADSL2+ lines where both downlink and uplink sync. speeds have been cut by Post Office. These on "Unlimited Broadband" packages. I have discussed the problem with them and they say that I am only paying for whatever they quoted the minimum speed of the line to be when I first ordered it The fact that when first installed it gave twice the current sync. speed and corresponding throughput cuts no ice. The fact that the lines have been changed from a noise margin of 6dB to as much as 18dB cuts no ice either. It seems that their policy is to cut the sync speeds to the minimum value that they suggested was possible when the line was ordered. Upload sync. speed is also being cut, that being unregulated. As many on this forum have stated before, this is an ISP best avoided if you want to get anything near what your line is capable of.
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