General Discussion
  >> Local Loop Unbundling & Regulation Issues


Register (or login) on our website and you will not see this ad.


Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)   Print Thread
Standard User lenham343
(newbie) Sat 09-Nov-13 19:53:46
Print Post

Profit margin on Caller Display?


[link to this post]
 
Anyone know what the economics are for Caller Display/CLI? It's one of the services charged for by my ISP. But as far as I can see there's only a sunk software development cost in the network, and a degree of software maintenance/testing that need to be covered. Do OR charge the ISPs for this facility?


£1 per month for Caller Display vs £14.50 for local line, cabinet, switches, central network, ... seems rather disproportionate!
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Sun 10-Nov-13 21:29:04
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: lenham343] [link to this post]
 
I don't know the answer, but I might correct you, in that it's not Openreach who levy the charge, they do not provide the Caller Display service.

Standard User zom22
(regular) Mon 11-Nov-13 07:36:25
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: lenham343] [link to this post]
 
I believe all the exchanges are gradually being updated to also display international CLI's - rather than merely 'international'
So this is a new facility which is going to have to be paid for by someone - the customers who want it.


Register (or login) on our website and you will not see this ad.

Standard User David_W
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 11-Nov-13 08:18:30
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
I don't know the answer, but I might correct you, in that it's not Openreach who levy the charge, they do not provide the Caller Display service.
Openreach do provide Caller Display on WLR3, as can be seen on their price list for Wholesale Calling Features (analogue). The wholesale cost is £1.50 per quarter (excluding VAT).

Standard User trolleybus
(member) Mon 11-Nov-13 09:40:58
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by David_W:
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
I don't know the answer, but I might correct you, in that it's not Openreach who levy the charge, they do not provide the Caller Display service.
Openreach do provide Caller Display on WLR3, as can be seen on their price list for Wholesale Calling Features (analogue). The wholesale cost is £1.50 per quarter (excluding VAT).


I predict vast numbers describing from this service that the law of demising returns will apply. Good on the mobile companies and hosted VoIP services containing to provide this service at no extra cost.

The sad thing is that caller display has a value in screening out spam calls bit even there the call presentation number is sometimes/often false noticeable with numbers like 0123456789 and 0000.
Standard User DrPepper
(regular) Mon 11-Nov-13 11:20:03
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: zom22] [link to this post]
 
All I can say is that we get it as standard on our mobile phones and they already display international numbers!

Standard User Michael_Chare
(committed) Mon 11-Nov-13 16:42:30
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: trolleybus] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by trolleybus:
I predict vast numbers describing from this service that the law of demising returns will apply. Good on the mobile companies and hosted VoIP services containing to provide this service at no extra cost.
It is BT trying to profit from the annoyance of unwanted calls. Leaving BT completely is a much better option.

Michael Chare
Standard User lenham343
(newbie) Wed 20-Nov-13 20:47:09
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the link. So broadly - markup on Openreach charges is 100% (£3/quarter vs £1.50 per quarter).

Looks like for basic line rental, annual charge is £93.27, vs my PN charge of £137.88 annual charge - ie a markup of 48%.

Given the basic charges need to absorb all of the costs of customer management & billing - can't see that the Caller Display charges are justified.

Follow-up thought about OR charges - £6 p.a. for Call Display - essentially a bit of software - vs £93 p.a . for copper, networks & switches - doesn't seen commensurate. How many people does OR have working on Caller Display?
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Fri 22-Nov-13 11:39:16
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: lenham343] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by lenham343:
How many people does OR have working on Caller Display?


Probably quite a few at the moment as they are upgrading it to carry international CLI numbers

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User warweezil
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 24-Nov-13 20:16:55
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
I returned to BT during the post office confusion, paid a year up front for line rental just a few weeks before the new charge structure was announced, and when the new charges kick in for caller display I will be unplugging the phone.

I have no desire to extend my hitch to BT by re-contracting to keep caller display, and I wont be paying for it - nor creating revenue for BT in traffic to my line (which only really exists to support broadband) - Caller display is something that is necessary due to the inability of the various regulators to take some real action against telephone spammers that call my TPS registered numbers. BT told me they cannot drop calls with spoofed CLI as it would breach international agreements, despite the fact that this action is taken to circumvent UK and EU laws. I am certain that BT could allow for that by amending thier T&C to prohibit the spoofing of CLI on thier network. Nor will they allow call barring from international numbers. All of this means that taking steps tpo stop phone spammers are pretty ineffectual while BT rake in revenue from the traffic this (often illegal) traffic generates.

So it is clear that BT don't really care over much about protecting thier customers from spammers, unless it yields a huge profit for them, so that helps me to decide on my departure from BT again once my current paid-up term expires, and it shows that BT - in their greed have shot themselves in the foot.

Any ISP that thinks that selling my click traffic is acceptable is MisinPHORMed
VIVACITI Surfwise LLU - Finally free of the BTw crawl, but not of BT's speculative invoicing (AKA SFI charges)
SWPM a BT Group investment "Not Spot"

My BQM
Standard User TMCR
(member) Sun 24-Nov-13 22:37:14
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: warweezil] [link to this post]
 
I think it's £2.25 on Virgin to have caller ID active. The only calls I seemed to get were from PPI companies or scammers. I've put some Panasonic DECT phones on that line, with call barring and answering machine - to screen incoming calls, just in case the hospital or some other official place calls. The ringer is turned off. Saves a lot of hassle.

Family will text and we'll call them from our mobiles or they will call my VOIP number, which has caller ID as standard, not an extra.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Virgin Cable (L30)
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Thu 05-Dec-13 12:17:52
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: warweezil] [link to this post]
 
I aactually think BT make revenue of these companies.

Of all the times I have had a VM line vs BT line, I get far more dodgy calls on the BT lines.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - BQM
Standard User IamQ
(experienced) Wed 11-Dec-13 20:06:39
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: zom22] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by zom22:
I believe all the exchanges are gradually being updated to also display international CLI's - rather than merely 'international'
So this is a new facility which is going to have to be paid for by someone - the customers who want it.


It's not an upgrade - full caller ID has always been present in its 'as sent' form. This is just BT relaxing the way they do things. The argument was BT couldn't validate international CLI therefor they didn't pass it to the end user. But they have been under a lot of pressure and have finally decided to allow international CLI to be passed as received.

A bit like dialing 141 before the destination number - it simply asks the destination switch to not display the as sent caller ID - if you look at the SS7 / signalling layer on the PSTN you will have the CLI
Standard User IamQ
(experienced) Wed 11-Dec-13 20:12:50
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: warweezil] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by warweezil:
BT told me they cannot drop calls with spoofed CLI as it would breach international agreements, despite the fact that this action is taken to circumvent UK and EU laws. I am certain that BT could allow for that by amending thier T&C to prohibit the spoofing of CLI on thier network. Nor will they allow call barring from international numbers.


They can't drop calls - they must present them as-received, it is however already against the rules to send 'invalid' or otherwise 'misleading or false' caller ID. I couldn't quote you where from though if you look through SIN Net you will find something I suspect.

You should also note that unlike the days of system Y you can't generally spoof your CLIP unless you have a VOIP gateway, or an SS7 signaling connection into the PSTN.

Most CLIP 'abuse' is lazy switch administrators - I know several companies who still send 0171, however there is some blatant abuse by rouge tele-sales companies who don't want to be tracked by end users. All the networks have no choice but to pass these calls as-received. They could for example prefix/suffix any suspicious CLI - but they wont.

Edited by IamQ (Wed 11-Dec-13 20:14:43)

Standard User IamQ
(experienced) Wed 11-Dec-13 20:20:01
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: lenham343] [link to this post]
 
It's not... Its a con and a way for BT to extort more money out of potentially vulnerable service users.

Caller ID is an integral part of the network which costs *NOTHING* to operate.

Please also note that BT are also going to charge for the 1571 answerphone service. Now this is a service I hate with a vengeance for example - if you call someone from a mobile who has 1571 answer - you get charged a termination fee by your operator if they are busy & on the phone. You have no choice to decline the call completion, and no out of band indication that the called party is busy and your going to be forced to the answer service.

Normal line with no 1571 service = Engaged / CC17 = busy signal & £0 cost to caller.
1571 Answer enabled = no busy signal/CC17 & termination cost to user + minimum billing interval.

Edited by IamQ (Wed 11-Dec-13 20:20:32)

Standard User warweezil
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 17-Dec-13 19:01:06
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: IamQ] [link to this post]
 
OK lets just agree that BT are happy to rip off customers who would like to protect their privacy at home from spammers and scammers, but wont take any real steps stop rogue businesses riding roughshod over the privacy in communications directives.

I just had one of the scammers on the phone - CLI showed "international" - conducting a "survey" about life insurance. If I were able to refuse overseas calls at exchange level - which should be my right on an ex-directory and TPS registered number (in the same way that my number is withheld when I dial out) then MY rights would be protected not to interrupted/disturbed by calls which are to all intents and purposes illegal.

Where calls are made in breach of privacy regulations - then it is high time that the public had the right to refuse to accept certain categories of calls where they breach protections that are supposed to stop such calls, (and BT the duty to provide whatever technical measures possible). I'm dropping CLI shortly, and have never used 1571, Cold callers can expect a VERY unwelcome response from me. Better yet, remove the small cost (?) of maintaining the voice side and sell just a bare DSL line, Given the instability of my less than 3km line over the years whatever they charge us for doesn't seem to be "pair maintenance"

Any ISP that thinks that selling my click traffic is acceptable is MisinPHORMed
VIVACITI Surfwise LLU - Finally free of the BTw crawl, but not of BT's speculative invoicing (AKA SFI charges)
SWPM a BT Group investment "Not Spot"

My BQM
Standard User kitcat
(committed) Tue 17-Dec-13 20:25:49
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: IamQ] [link to this post]
 
IamQ

I believe that it is an upgrade to the access equipment and software, whilst the full CLI is already present you only get sent the first (15?) characters including spaces, a full international CLI could be up to 22 digits. This will span 2 lines of the display unit, at present we only see one line.

As this is a software upgrade it is likely to cost tems of millions of pounds for each type of switch, I wonder how many types BT has? I suspect that the switches haven't had updated software for years as BT were going to replace them with 21C at some point and updating the software on old code ( circa 1990 ) could cost a lot if only to train up people to do it.

You also have to have the equipment to send the signals to the line on each call, the more people that have the facility the more this will cost. (On a mobile you have different signalling to the phone that can carry the CLI within it.) The info comes down as a hidden frequency before the first ring ( on my wired phone you can hear it 'click' before it rings) so that it doesn't interfere with the ringing.

A google search give SIN 227 which is far too technical for me to understand it all

Thus this is not free

Personally I prefer the "International" we get today, it enables me to list and replace the receiver without much thought.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Wed 18-Dec-13 14:15:18
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: warweezil] [link to this post]
 
Better yet, remove the small cost (?) of maintaining the voice side and sell just a bare DSL line, Given the instability of my less than 3km line over the years whatever they charge us for doesn't seem to be "pair maintenance"

Unplug your phone. Sorted.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User Kam
(learned) Wed 18-Dec-13 15:37:55
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: warweezil] [link to this post]
 
I dont understand why any significant work should be needed to re-enable the display of International CLI. I used to get International Numbers displayed in full on my BT CD1500 caller id display box years ago, until at some point this information was suppressed. This may have been when switching phone suppliers, but ultimately they all pass through BT Openreach.
As for the profit margin it must be huge. I cant believe it costs more than the tiniest fraction of a penny to pass on this information which the service provider is receiving anyway.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Thu 19-Dec-13 09:22:06
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: Kam] [link to this post]
 
so interestingly BT systems used to reveal international CLI?

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - BQM
Standard User danielhyde
(member) Thu 22-Apr-21 11:19:09
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by TMCR:
I think it's £2.25 on Virgin to have caller ID active. The only calls I seemed to get were from PPI companies or scammers. I've put some Panasonic DECT phones on that line, with call barring and answering machine - to screen incoming calls, just in case the hospital or some other official place calls. The ringer is turned off. Saves a lot of hassle.

Family will text and we'll call them from our mobiles or they will call my VOIP number, which has caller ID as standard, not an extra.


I believe it is free now if you sign up for a new Virgin account now as they provide VOIP not an analogue line.

Thanks
Dan
Standard User TMCR
(committed) Thu 22-Apr-21 11:48:39
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: danielhyde] [link to this post]
 
Apart from the original post being from 2013, I'm no longer with Virgin..Too many lies being told there now.

EE Fibre Plus
Standard User broadband66
(knowledge is power) Thu 22-Apr-21 13:17:13
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: danielhyde] [link to this post]
 
Not free as such but is included in the price.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk, upgraded to fibre 40/10
Standard User Pheasant
(experienced) Thu 22-Apr-21 16:49:21
Print Post

Re: Profit margin on Caller Display?


[re: danielhyde] [link to this post]
 
Unfortunately it was an early morning spammer (spam post since deleted by MrSaffron) that managed to resurrect this thread from the dead...well an 8 year slumber anyhow! I hope the OP appreciated your belated reply 😎😄
Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)   Print Thread

Jump to