Is Windows Defender Enough ?

For some years we have used Kaspersky Total, (up to 10 devices), and we still have a valid licence for Kaspersky Total that is valid up to February 2024.

We all know about the issues with Bad Vlad and the Russians and because of the Russian Connection for over a year I have been tempted to move away from Kaspersky.

Therefore, last December in an Amazon Deal Norton 360 was on offer and we bought Norton 360, (10 Devices for 15 months), in a cheap Amazon Offer. and we decided to install it today even though we still have a 11 months left on the Kaspersky licence. - (We used the Kaspersky removal tool).

Kaspersky has been quite good and we have had no issues with it but Norton 360, (possibly due to the way that it is set up on my PC), seems slower and I may uninstall it and remove some of the options.

Windows Defender is part of the Windows operating system which begs the question:: is just Windows Defender Good enough or do we also really need to use separate paid Anti-virus/Internet Security Software as well ?

Never paid for any antivirus software, just use the free stuff (Avast, AVG, Defender, stc), and have never had any known issues.

Hi,

IMHO, unless you're running a business system then I would steer well clear of anything other than Defender. Anything more would just be ridiculous IMHO. Previous versions of Windows (XP & earlier) was the last time I used a free antivirus such as AVG Free and the ilk. This was because Windows didn't have a built in antivirus that was installed. With Windows 10 / 11 Defender is the default antivirus.

HTH,

Yes. It's your own behaviour that will determine how safe you remain, not anti-virus.

Personally, i think a 3rd party Firewall Will always Be a massive improvement to security of any system, Microsoft's firewall is rudimentary at best and isn't very intuitive or informative, but that alone will not prevent your device being compromised but it is an added layer to alert you, IMO good old common sense and logic are often all that is needed to avoid disaster along with a BACKUP system that isn't stored on the same device or in fact in the same property unless in a a fireproof safe for total protection of your data, should it mean that much to you

We have a few laptops using Window 10, an IPad, two Android Phones and an IPhone.

Up to now we have used a Total Security Software on my Laptops, (I7 processor, older now but good spec ram, etc.), and the Android Phones, (for years it has been Kaspersky Total and prior to that it was the older type of Norton 360).

Kaspersky has been really good and the older version of Norton 360 was also good but this new version seems to slow down the internet and it halves any speed tests.

We have not had any security issues on any device.

Since the router has a hardware firewall we are less concerned, (possibly foolishly), with regard to the laptops which stay at home and also have Windows Defender as part of the Windows 10 OS.

In the old days an anti-virus/security package was considered a must but these days Windows Defender looks good and I am not sure that separate anti-virus/security software is needed on the laptops.

The Android Phones, IPad and IPhone is not always behind our router firewall and could be more vulnerable but the theory is that the IPad and the IPhone does not need separate security software.

Regarding Android Phones, I have read conflicting views about their security needs. - We still have valid licences for the next 15 months but would a free anti-virus be adequate for them after that?

Does the IPad and the IPhone need separate anti-virus/security software ?

Completely agree with Zadeks

Out of interest Fido, when you say that Kaspersky & Norton have been really good, how are you quantifying that?

In reply to a post by timandhaylea:

Completely agree with Zadeks

Out of interest Fido, when you say that Kaspersky & Norton have been really good, how are you quantifying that?

Kaspersky Total has not needed to interfere in my internet use and it has not slowed any devices down. - The same applies to the older Norton 360. - Overall, I never knew that they were there.

That said; the latest Norton 360 does appear to halve the internet speed on laptop Ookla speed tests and it seems more intrusive.

To me a really good Software Security package is one that works in the background and only makes its presence know if there is a potential issue. - Kaspersky has a good rep and gave a reassurance even though I hardly noticed that it existed.

Right now I do not like the latest version of Norton 360 Premium.

Rightly or wrongly the Russian link to Kaspersky is a concern and I am not sure that either is needed if Windows Defender is good enough.

I tend not to visit dodgy sites. - On the IPad I only download apps from the Apple Store and on the Android Phones I only download apps from the Google Store.

Does the IPad need security software ?

Everyone has to asses the risk for themselves as we all surf the web differently, I am extremely cautious and still use Defender and a paid for Antivirus/Firewall product on my windows devices as well as an addon to identify unsafe search results. On Android I also run antivirus software.

Having said all that its a risk assessment by you that will determine what you need to do and if its clouded by cost considerations then thats not the best way to do it.

In reply to a post by dect:

Everyone has to asses the risk for themselves as we all surf the web differently, I am extremely cautious and still use Defender and a paid for Antivirus/Firewall product on my windows devices as well as an addon to identify unsafe search results. On Android I also run antivirus software.

Having said all that its a risk assessment by you that will determine what you need to do and if its clouded by cost considerations then thats not the best way to do it.

Hi dect,

Cost is not the main concern and it is not at all about cost. - Luckily we are comfortable so cost is not an issue and in any case, (these days), security software is relatively inexpensive.

Foolishly I actually bought two 15 month licences for Norton 360 Premium so I already have Norton 360 Premium licences for 30 months, (I will probably give them to a family member), and I still have 11 months left on my Kaspersky Total Licence so I will not be going Security Software Free on the Laptops or on the Android Phones anytime soon for at least the next year.

The reason for my original post is that there are people on the Thinkbroadband WebSite that are well up on internet security than most of us who are mainly putting a wet finger into the air as they know much more about internet security than I do and that is why I raised the question.

As a layman with very little idea about internet security: My personal gut feeling is that for 98% of us Windows Defender alone would be a good option but I really do not know enough to quantify the differential between Windows Defender and a Premium Security Package.

Regards,
Fido

I personally disable Defender (it severely impacts my performance) and run Malwarebytes as I get that free from NatWest.

I also have Trend Micro protection enabled on my routers.

Defender is plenty enough for 99.9% of home users and does extremely well considering it's free and bundled with windows.

NO Antivirus software is better than looking at and verifying what you visit, download and click on.

Plenty of sites exist that compare AV software to help.
https://www.av-comparatives.org/consumer/

I'm on the same road as yourself -- Kaspersky multi-user for many years but took it off our PCs last year following the lead of so many Governments. I checked several comparison sites and all concluded that Defender had been greatly developed to become as efficient as the best paid-for software.

So far no issues whatever and one wouldn't know it was there unless it pops up a warning of something dodgy, as it has a few times with good reason. Certainly I won't pay for AV again. In fact the much-maligned Microsoft offers a fantastic service free of charge, not just the free updates from Windows XP onwards but constant updates of drivers -- I couldn't find a USB driver update on the HP manufacturer's site but discovered that Microsoft had updated it for me last year among its weekly W10 updating service. Credit where it's due!

I watched a Youtube video from a tech channel which said the traditional drive by download virus is dying out. Even a basic AV is good enough at spotting nasties and there isnt much point these days to try and infect a few home users with a virus.

The big bucks are in ransomware and going after big businesses. Aslong as you stay away from obvious dodgy sites (browsers tend to warn you anyway), and dont click dodgy links and attachments you will probably be ok

Edited by bobble_bob (Mon 27-Mar-23 17:25:47)

In reply to a post by Malwaremike:

I'm on the same road as yourself -- Kaspersky multi-user for many years but took it off our PCs last year following the lead of so many Governments. I checked several comparison sites and all concluded that Defender had been greatly developed to become as efficient as the best paid-for software.

So far no issues whatever and one wouldn't know it was there unless it pops up a warning of something dodgy, as it has a few times with good reason. Certainly I won't pay for AV again. In fact the much-maligned Microsoft offers a fantastic service free of charge, not just the free updates from Windows XP onwards but constant updates of drivers -- I couldn't find a USB driver update on the HP manufacturer's site but discovered that Microsoft had updated it for me last year among its weekly W10 updating service. Credit where it's due!

Since Windows Defender is part of the Windows 10 OS even when another security package is installed Windows Defender is still at least partially operational and for the Laptop it may be sufficient.

In some ways I always feel that the less invasive software in the PC the better. - Some years ago I used to use System Mechanic which turned up the PC and came with the full version of Kasperky but when I started to get PC issues and carried out a clean install of windows and only added System Mechanic the issues returned on the clean install so I knew that System Mechanic was to blame.

Also once you install Norton in PC only a clean install seemed to get it out.

Since Windows Defender is from Microsoft comparability issues would not be a problem and that coupled with a periodic visit to an online PC virus checker may be good enough.

Years ago when I used the free AVG software I periodically went to Trend Housecall and never had any issues with either one..

https://www.trendmicro.com/en_gb/forHome/products/ho...

It would be useful to know the quality difference between Windows Defender and Norton/Kaspersky/etc. as from what I can tell as a layman they are now quite similar.

The paid for software can do stuff that I have no interest in such as keeping passwords, parental restrictions, setting up VPN.

I do not want security software to have my passwords and I can set up my own VPN when I want one.

In reply to a post by Fido:

Does the IPad need security software ?

The very nature of the iPad/iPhone software design means that security software isn't needed and can't really exist.

Apps are all sandboxed separately from each other, with very limited forms of communication between them.

Apple don't provide ways to hook into network stacks or input devices, which both stops malicious software and means that security software can't do anything useful.

About the only area that security software can do anything is to provide you with a VPN and spy on the traffic as best as they can.

You don't need security software for your iPad.

Some time ago when I was only using Windows security I downloaded a later version of a CD writing program. This software contained some malware which kept making my Internet browser display a gambling website.

Only when I ran some proper antivirus software did I find the cause of the problem.

These days I use Malwarebytes as I can download a free copy courtesy of my bank.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

In reply to a post by Fido:

Does the IPad need security software ?

The very nature of the iPad/iPhone software design means that security software isn't needed and can't really exist.

Apps are all sandboxed separately from each other, with very limited forms of communication between them.

Apple don't provide ways to hook into network stacks or input devices, which both stops malicious software and means that security software can't do anything useful.

About the only area that security software can do anything is to provide you with a VPN and spy on the traffic as best as they can.

You don't need security software for your iPad.

Hello andynormancx,

Thank you for explaining this in a technical way.

I had heard that Mac, IPads and IPhones did not need anti virus even though these days some of the products seem to say that they cover them.

Android Phones have an app test device call Google Play Protect but most people, myself included use separate Internet Security Software on these Android Phones. - Is this needed ?

Regards,
Fido

Edited by Fido (Tue 28-Mar-23 09:53:19)

Many thanks to all who contributed.

It seems that for most of us Windows Defender is at least 99% effective and possibly even equally effective as the well known security software on the market without the add ons and the IPad/Apple Devices do not need security software.

Since I have already paid for 30 months worth of licences for Norton 360 I may as well use it for now in the Android Phones. - (Norton 360 does seem to work OK in the Android Phones so I will use it there and I may try a cut down version of Norton 360 in my laptop).

Regards,
Fido

Edited by Fido (Tue 28-Mar-23 09:58:23)

In reply to a post by Fido:

I had heard that Mac, IPads and IPhones did not need anti virus even though these days some of the products seem to say that they cover them.

The issues aren't the same with the Mac as compared to iPads and iPhones.

The iPhone (and later the iPad) started from sort of a fresh* system architecture in the mid 2000s. At that point it was very clear that allowing apps free rein over the operating system and hardware was a bad idea.

The Mac operating system however started much earlier. First as NeXTSTEP back in 1989 and later merged with parts of the original Mac operating system around 2000.

So the Mac operating system initially allowed apps much more access to each other, lower levels of the operating system and the hardware than iPhone/iPad allow.

Most experienced Mac users I know do not bother with third party anti-virus/security software, the reasons being:

- there have never been many viruses/malicious software for the Mac (probably due to its ~10% market share)
- Apple have similar built in protections to Defender
- Apple have made better steps at stopping users from accidentally running apps they've downloaded from random places
- the Mac OS has always been more simple and just done less than Windows (providing a smaller attack surface)
- Apple are much quicker to drop support for old technologies/software (lots of Windows vulnerabilities are
in old code that on the Mac would likely have been abandoned years ago)
- Apple have been taking big steps to make the OS and hardware even more secure.

Things Apple have done on the security side in recent years that Windows has been unable to achieve:

- moved all the system software on to a readonly part of the hard drive (preventing malicious code from changing it)
- moved most cryptographic functions to a separately secured processor (so the operating system doesn't even have access to critical security keys)
- encouraged developers to move their apps into sandboxes that restrict what they can do with the OS/other apps
- enabled secure boot by default
- aggressively rolled back the ability of developers to run their code in the very lowest levels of the system

But the Mac is theoretically at least a lot less secure than iPads and iPhones.

* the operating system was built in the foundations of macOS, but with a lot of the higher levels of it removed

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

In reply to a post by Fido:

I had heard that Mac, IPads and IPhones did not need anti virus even though these days some of the products seem to say that they cover them.

The issues aren't the same with the Mac as compared to iPads and iPhones.

The iPhone (and later the iPad) started from sort of a fresh* system architecture in the mid 2000s. At that point it was very clear that allowing apps free rein over the operating system and hardware was a bad idea.

The Mac operating system however started much earlier. First as NeXTSTEP back in 1989 and later merged with parts of the original Mac operating system around 2000.

So the Mac operating system initially allowed apps much more access to each other, lower levels of the operating system and the hardware than iPhone/iPad allow.

Most experienced Mac users I know do not bother with third party anti-virus/security software, the reasons being:

- there have never been many viruses/malicious software for the Mac (probably due to its ~10% market share)
- Apple have similar built in protections to Defender
- Apple have made better steps at stopping users from accidentally running apps they've downloaded from random places
- the Mac OS has always been more simple and just done less than Windows (providing a smaller attack surface)
- Apple are much quicker to drop support for old technologies/software (lots of Windows vulnerabilities are
in old code that on the Mac would likely have been abandoned years ago)
- Apple have been taking big steps to make the OS and hardware even more secure.

Things Apple have done on the security side in recent years that Windows has been unable to achieve:

- moved all the system software on to a readonly part of the hard drive (preventing malicious code from changing it)
- moved most cryptographic functions to a separately secured processor (so the operating system doesn't even have access to critical security keys)
- encouraged developers to move their apps into sandboxes that restrict what they can do with the OS/other apps
- enabled secure boot by default
- aggressively rolled back the ability of developers to run their code in the very lowest levels of the system

But the Mac is theoretically at least a lot less secure than iPads and iPhones.

* the operating system was built in the foundations of macOS, but with a lot of the higher levels of it removed

Hello andynormancx,

Thank you again for another really informative and very helpful post which has certainly helped me to understand the differentials between these operating systems and will no doubt act as a reference guide for myself and many other board users.

Regards,
Fido

Edited by Fido (Tue 28-Mar-23 15:49:55)