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Standard User Fido
(committed) Mon 03-Jun-19 16:53:02
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Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[link to this post]
 
Last October, (which is now almost 8 months ago), Sky said that they would be uprating my line from Sky Fibre Unlimited (40/10 mbps cap), to Sky Fibre Max 80/20 mbps cap), for free but it did not happen and now apparently it won't happen because Sky Fibre Max is no longer available no new customers. - That said; I would still prefer a higher speed product with a higher cap since the costs are similar although I do realize that a higher cap may not result in a higher speed.

When I contacted Sky about my not having been changed to Sky Fibre Max they did offer me Sky Broadband Superfast with a new 18 month contract but the predicted speed of Sky Broadband Superfast for my line was only 24 mbps down which seems ridiculous since my line usually has a rock solid flat-graph of almost 38 mbps with the Sky Fibre Unlimited line sync speed being capped a 40 mbps.

I told them that I wanted the Sky Fibre Max that they promised me but was told that was not possible as that no longer offer Sky Fibre max to people who are not already on it, (although those already on it can keep it), and I now suspect that the Deslam in my cabinet is full.

Are Sky Fibre Unlimited and Sky Fibre Max lines physically separated in the exchange/cabinet or is it just a programing limit that needs to be changed to move my line from one product to the other? - If it is just a programming change it seems churlish not to just change me to what was promised, (even though I realize that I may not see a speed increase).

At present my broadband contract with Sky has ended and I can move to another provider if I wish to but for the most part I am reasonably happy which creates a dilemma since my router indicates that my line could potentially support a download speed of over 55mbps. (That speed may be overly ambitious since my line down attenuation is 18 db but a higher cap is always desirable).

Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max or are there speed differences and are the speed caps the same ?

If the Deslam in my cabinet if full; would moving from Sky to another ISP move my wiring to another Deslam ?

I ask this because a line fault was repaired last week, (ie. crosstalk on an Openreach wire). - This was corrected last week and although my present thinkbroadband speed test is back to a rock solid almost 38 mbps my router now reports a sync speed of 40 mbps and it now also reports a max rate of 40 mbps instead of the max rate of over 55 mbps that was previously showing before the repair, the physical moving about of the Openreach wires and a profile reset). - My line down attenuation is still 18 db.

Sky Fibre
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 03-Jun-19 17:47:40
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: Fido] [link to this post]
 
Sky Broadband Superfast is a merger of the old two products one of which was Sky Fibre Max and thus covers the

40/10
55/10 and
80/20 FTTC products

The change has mainly being just a name change, and possibly some policy changes in what they offer to customers, but the underlying 40/10 and 80/20 services remain the same. Suspect you've reached the sales support staff knowledge limit, in trying to ask for a switch to the 80/20 underlying product rather than a 40/10 i.e. all they see is your product name has changed so they think it is job done.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 03-Jun-19 17:49:38
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: Fido] [link to this post]
 
Can you post line stats that the Sky router shows.

Sky don't sell 40/10 and 80/20 as 2 separate packages.

They will use the estimates for your line to decide wether you should be provisioned on 40/10 or 80/20.
By the sounds of your quoted speeds they would put you on 40/10.

There are many reasons why the max attainable can drop from 55Mb to 40Mb. I'll list just a couple of them.

OpenReach could have used a different pair when fixing your fault and this pair has a different attainable rate. Every line has differing levels of crosstalk/interference. Some lines may have sections of Aluminium while others may not.

Crosstalk could simply have eaten away at what the line can achieve.
Crosstalk is the interference from other lines with fibre on your cabinet.
Personally my line has lost about 20Mb to crosstalk in the last 2-3 years.
It's not uncommon to instantly lose 10-20Mb when a neighbour (particularly those whose line runs along side yours all the way to the cabinet) has FTTC activated.
When my neighbour turns their modem off my max attainable jumps 8Mb.

You could have had Interleaving enabled on your line before the fault.
This artificially exaggerates the max attainable above what the line can achieve.
When faults are fixed OpenReach reset the DLM on the line which can remove Interleaving and so the max attainable would drop to a realistic figure.


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Standard User Fido
(committed) Mon 03-Jun-19 18:07:07
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
The present line stats are;

Line Status:

Current Rate (kbps)

Upstream 9548 / Downstream 40000

Max Rate (kbps)

Upstream 9548 / Downstream 40838

SNR Margin (dB)

Up 5.4 / Down 6

Line Attenuation (dB)

Up 42.1 / Down 18.5

Sky Fibre
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 03-Jun-19 18:15:33
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: Fido] [link to this post]
 
A quick look at the stats suggests you would see zero benefit from being put on an 80/20 profile.

In all likelihood your sync speed may drop below 40Mb over time as your local fibre cabinet continues to fill up.

If you are fortunate enough to be on a Huawei fibre cabinet then you might be able to get another (roughly) 8-10Mb if the DLM reduced the target SNR margin from 6dB to 3dB.
DLM would only consider this on a Huawei cabinet and when the line isn't reaching its current cap.

You can find out if you are on an ECI or Huawei cabinet by following this guide.
https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/cabinet-lookup.htm
Standard User Fido
(committed) Mon 03-Jun-19 20:13:56
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
Going by the physical appearance of the local cabinet; it is a Huawei cabinet.

I do not object to receiving a speed that is somewhat less that the capped speed but I would want to be synced at the full capped speed and I would certainly not be comfortable with being limited by lack of capacity in the local Openreach Equipment and/or duff Openreach Equipment keeping me on lower speeds and a hidden artificial speed cap that was not automatically increased when higher speeds were achievable.

Last week, when the Openreach Engineer was checking for the crosstalk fault he changed the wires to another Deslam in the cabinet and he said that that previous Deslam which had G.Imp was full and the Deslam that he moved my wiring to did not have G.Imp. - (I am not sure if that is relevant as we are about 750m from the cabinet).

Apparently all of those changes were mute because the wiring crosstalk was considered to be in the wire between the junction connection on the outer wall of the house and the Openreach Master Socket just through that wall but before he changed that wire he had seemed sure that it was closer to the cabinet and that is why he changed over the Dslam.

Either way, at the end of his visit, his device said that the crosstalk reading were clear but when he left the speed was terrible. - The reason for that could be that he requested the profile reset, prior to finding the crosstalk fault, as he was about to leave before he found the crosstalk fault, (after I pressed for more checks for crosstalk), which meant that his subsequent testing was being carried out while the line was under its 10 day training period and my connection speed was down the toilet (at 24 mbps) after he cured the fault and he left site.

Since then the speed has gone back up to where it is now.

Nothing against the Openreach Engineer but I have never been very impressed with Openreach; where the rest of Europe tends to have full FTTP we have [censored] FTTC and instead of having lots of spare capacity in the wiring and cabinets; we tend to have just enough capacity so that when/if a fault develops there is always the chance of being swapped onto a Deslam that someone else escaped from a few weeks earlier or someone else's complained about wiring spares.

The reason that I would prefer a product with a higher cap is the possibility of contention in that I would expect a lesser number (perhaps 20) 80/20 wires would be grouped together and a greater number (perhaps 40) 40/10 wires would be grouped together grouped together and if my line stats did allow for greater speeds that should arrive automatically.

Sky Fibre
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 03-Jun-19 20:39:19
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: Fido] [link to this post]
 
Only Huawei cabinets have G.INP.
That sound like you have both a Huawei cabinet and an ECI cabinet.
The Huawei cabinets are better kit.

The 15Mb drop in attainable will be from the lack of G.INP.

If you enter your address in to the broadband availability checker and post the exchange/cabinet number I can check if you have both DSLAM's.

https://my.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/adsl.htm?s_...

Edited by j0hn83 (Mon 03-Jun-19 20:40:05)

Standard User Fido
(committed) Mon 03-Jun-19 22:00:23
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
Hi John83,

Thank you for your assistance.

I have sent my exchange and cabinet details via a secure message.

Regards,
Fido

Sky Fibre
Standard User Fido
(committed) Tue 04-Jun-19 00:02:53
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: Fido] [link to this post]
 
I am fairly sure that I was previously on a Huawei Deslam because about three years ago, (when my cabinet was updated), my line was totally dead for over three days and that was due to Huawei having updated the cabinet and accidentally turning off my connection so having suffered a long loss of service for almost four days during the upgrade I certainly do not want to be on an inferior product.

As I recall the Deslam that I was on,(which did have G.INP), had over 140 ports, all of which were full except for the one that they moved my connection from. - (Unnecessarily as it turns out since the crosstalk was elsewhere), and the Deslam that my connection was moved to, (which the Openreach Engineer later said did not have G.INP), apparently had only about 48 ports and only 12 of those were used. - (I am not sure if that helps).

If I was switched to an inferior type of Deslam can I press Sky to move my connection back to the Deslam that it was previously on, (bearing in mind that my original Deslam port may have been immediately snaffled by Openreach for another customer who wanted a faster connection ?

Also; If my cabinet does have both a Huawei and ECI Deslams in the same cabinet, and I have been unnecessarily switched to the ECI side, (which is considered to be inferior and does not have G.INP), if I change ISP would that put me onto another Deslam or would that make no difference to the Deslam for my line ?

If it is the case that there is no capacity and my connection was unnecessarily switched to the ECI side that would be like sending your car in for maintenance and the engine being replaced by an engine with half the power because they found an intermittently defective starter wire.

Sky Fibre
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 04-Jun-19 09:27:50
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: Fido] [link to this post]
 
Lots of ifs.

Switching ISP will not see your VDSL2 port changed, migrations cost so little because Openreach does not need to visit the cabinet

Huawei updating a cabinet sounds like a tall tale, there may have been a firmware update to the chassis/line card but would have been scheduled by Openreach, and they should have been able to turn your connection back on.

You can try pressing Sky but to be honest it will get you nowhere other than them maybe saying - you are free to go elsewhere if you want.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 04-Jun-19 13:47:01
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: Fido] [link to this post]
 
According to the Codelook website your entire exchange is Huawei DSLAM's.

Your original DSLAM (a Huawei) was installed in 2010 and a 2nd DSLAM was installed at a later date.
The 2nd DSLAM will also be a Huawei.

Take a walk to your local green PCP cabinet and some point. It should have 2 fibre cabinets within close proximity.
Compare the 2 fibre cabinets to the pictures on the page I linked in my earlier post.

Both the Huawei DSLAM's should have G.INP as every Huawei DSLAM has it.

It's possible the drop in attainable is because 1 DSLAM is much busier so there's much more crosstalk in the tie pairs.
It could also be that you've been moved to the DSLAM that is much further away from the PCP.

DSLAM's can be right next to the PCP but they can also be up to 100m away. The further away they are the lower your line is likely to sync.

Getting the ISP to get OpenReach to change the DSLAM isn't possible.
If you are below the minimum guaranteed line rate you could request a port swap but AFAIK* there's no way in the system to request a specific port on a specific DSLAM.
The system could automatically allocate you a port on the same DSLAM.

*AFAIK - I tried getting OpenReach to change me from an ECI DSLAM to a Huawei DSLAM back in January 2017 and was told that wasn't an option in the system.
I had to cease my line and reorder FTTC to get on the Huawei cabinet.

Edited by j0hn83 (Tue 04-Jun-19 13:48:01)

Standard User Fido
(committed) Tue 04-Jun-19 16:55:23
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by j0hn83:
Take a walk to your local green PCP cabinet and some point. It should have 2 fibre cabinets within close proximity.
Compare the 2 fibre cabinets to the pictures on the page I linked in my earlier post.

Both the Huawei DSLAM's should have G.INP as every Huawei DSLAM has it.


John83,

Thankyou ever so much for your checking and for your thorough and extremely helpful replies.

As you advised; I did travel to the local BT PCP Cabinet, (which has another half BT PCP Cabinet stuck to the side of it with the same cabinet number on both): I could only see one FTTC Cabinet which was within 15 feet of the BT PCP Cabinet/s and that looks like the Huawei 288 FTTC Fibre Cabinet that was pictured in the link you attached. - (Could both Deslams be in this one FTTC Cabinet).

Therefore, if they are all Huawei Deslams, perhaps the Openreach Engineer meant that the Deslam that he moved me to had a defective/disabled G.INP feature. - I Don't know.

Perhaps, the line profile reset request before lots of additional testing and changes were needed to carry out his repair mess up the profile of the line and with regard to the Max Rate, perhaps, that will increase with time? - If the line profile becomes messed up, (during the 10 day training period),would that require an Engineer Reset/a change of ISP or would it get to Fastpath and a higher Max Rate in the next few months or should it get to Fastpath and a higher Max rate Automatically?

Since Sky Broadband Superfast and Sky Fibre Max are considered to be the same I have no real beef with not being changed to Sky Fibre Max if it is only a product name change and as far as Sky is concerned; I will see how it goes over the next month and I will probably just stay with Sky for the foreseeable future as they are as good as any other ISP that I have been with and most of the issues seem to be down to Openreach.

Regards,
Fido

Sky Fibre
Standard User broadband66
(knowledge is power) Wed 05-Jun-19 10:22:54
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: Fido] [link to this post]
 
What is the "10 day training" you mention?

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
Standard User Fido
(committed) Wed 05-Jun-19 12:40:54
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by broadband66:
What is the "10 day training" you mention?


It could be a throwback from ADSL but the theory is that you should leave the connection alone for a 10 day period, especially after a profile reset, as it messes up the Dynamic Line Management (DLM) for the line.

Some say that it is not relevant as the DLM probably resets every few days but the Openreach Engineers etc. still refer to a 10 day training period.

Therefore, I have a policy of not to changing/rebooting routers or resetting the router within a 10 day period as I have noticed that it reduces the speed and it probably also changes from fastpath to interleaved as the pings, latency and browsing experience deteriorates.

If that is not the case I would be happy to know that it was unnecessary.

Sky Fibre
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 05-Jun-19 13:22:32
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: Fido] [link to this post]
 
There is no training period on FTTC.

DLM will monitor the connection on day 1 the same way it will on day 101.
Standard User Fido
(committed) Thu 06-Jun-19 20:08:49
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Sky Broadband Superfast is a merger of the old two products one of which was Sky Fibre Max and thus covers the

40/10
55/10 and
80/20 FTTC products

The change has mainly being just a name change, and possibly some policy changes in what they offer to customers, but the underlying 40/10 and 80/20 services remain the same....



Most of that is correct but I have managed to get some more information from Sky for my own line and that may not be the whole story.

Under my present product, (ie. Sky Fibre Unlimited), I am presently capped at 40/10 mbps. (simple and easy to understand). - I presently sync at 40 mbps and get up to 38 mbps down with a minimum guaranteed speed of about 32 mbps. but under Sky Broadband Superfast my guaranteed speed would be reduced by 50% and my line would be capped to 37 mbps.

As you indicated; Sky Broadband Superfast does come in three speed levels, (under the same product title and at the same recommended cost to the customer).

Apparently, the speed level allocated to each customer depends on the capacity of the local exchange and line target speeds supplied by Openreach to Sky. - For my line the down speed levels for level 1 is between 24 mbps and 37 mbps.; level 2 is between approximately 40 mbps and 50 mbps and Level 3 is between 50 mbps and 80 mbps.- Therefore, in my case under Sky Broadband Superfast my line speed would be reduced as I would effectively be locked into Level 1 which would give speeds between 24 mbps and 37 mbps and would give a lower guaranteed speed of 24 mbps which is about a 50% reduction on the present guaranteed speed and a lower upper sync cap. - What's the point in that?

Since I am being denied access to the Sky Fibre Max, that was promised; If I do decide to stay with Sky it seems that I am better off staying with Sky Fibre Unlimited than I would be changing to Sky Broadband Superfast because it would be more that a mere name change. - It would potentially be a speed reduction.

Sky Fibre
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 06-Jun-19 21:19:21
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: Fido] [link to this post]
 
The differences are down to how Sky is interpreting the estimated speeds and then applying their correct for peak time speeds, i.e. following the rules.

Signing up for a new service, even if still the same underlying open reach product means they'll be telling you the new speeds that they sell at.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User j0hn83
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 06-Jun-19 21:54:05
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: Fido] [link to this post]
 
Apparently, the speed level allocated to each customer depends on the capacity of the local exchange and line target speeds supplied by Openreach to Sky


It will be based entirely on the estimates.

I can't see a situation where someone with a very short line and estimates to get the full 80Mb is placed on 40/10 because of Sky's exchange capacity.
I can't see them doing that for any customer not just the example above.

There are far better ways to manage traffic on congested exchanges.
Standard User Apophis
(regular) Thu 18-Jul-19 21:22:14
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: Fido] [link to this post]
 
Without hijacking this thread, this is very similar to the situation I am in, although I did get the upgrade as promised!

Back in February, my Sky Fibre Unlimited was upgraded for free to Sky Fibre Max and my 40mbps connection increased to nearer 63mbps and has been ever since. Fast forward to two weeks ago when I contacted Sky to negotiate a better deal on my monthly subscription. The guy I spoke to said "we will move you across to our new Sky Superfast" - I asked if this was just a name change and nothing will change with my service, he confirmed so. He did read out that my estimated speed will be around 35-40mbps, which I immediately challenged and said I get far more than that now on Sky Fibre Max - he said nothing would change and that's effectively my minimum guaranteed speed. I was happy as confirmed several times my overall package was not changing and all I am doing in reality is reducing my monthly bill.

However - when this went through, immediately, my speed dropped and am now only getting 38mbps on average, never going much above that and the Sky Hub connects at 39999 Down / 9999 up.

Me, being rather annoyed at this point rang Sky, got nowhere, and raised a complaint that I was mislead by the advisor. They now say Sky Fibre Max is no longer available and if I want to keep the faster speed i need Sky Fibre Pro which will cost me £20pm more! (I know Sky Fibre Pro isn't available anymore and was rebranded as Sky Fibre Max some time ago, so that's clearly a load of old cobblers). I have escalated it further and am awaiting a call back.

When I go to BT's site, the estimated speed for my line is 63mbps, so clearly my line is capable of the speed I was getting .. I know it's capable of that, as i was getting it until I spoke to the person at Sky! How my speed can drop to pre Max levels, virtually overnight after I'd made this call, cannot be just a coincidence and must be related to something they've done. I see no reason why simply moving me from one package to another would require an engineer to do something at the cabinet, and surely is just an internal admin process!

Edited by Apophis (Thu 18-Jul-19 22:49:38)

Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Thu 18-Jul-19 22:58:52
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: Apophis] [link to this post]
 
Can you copy your speed estimates from here using the address checker NOT post code.

E.g. mine
Featured Products

Downstream Line Rate(Mbps)

Upstream Line Rate(Mbps)

Downstream Handback Threshold(Mbps)

WBC FTTC Availability Date

WBC SOGEA Availability Date

High Low High Low
VDSL Range A (Clean) 80 67 20 19 60 Available Available
VDSL Range B (Impacted) 80 61.9 20 19 55 Available Available
Standard User broadband66
(knowledge is power) Fri 19-Jul-19 12:41:25
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: Apophis] [link to this post]
 
I joined The AA for £20 and got a free additional driver.

The renewal cost this year is £93 including £25 for additional driver

Is your situation similar? They lure you in with free offers but only for the length of the contract.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
Standard User Apophis
(regular) Fri 19-Jul-19 15:44:43
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by broadband66:
I joined The AA for £20 and got a free additional driver.

The renewal cost this year is £93 including £25 for additional driver

Is your situation similar? They lure you in with free offers but only for the length of the contract.

No. I've been with Sky 1992. It's only last year when I initially renegotiated that I entered into a new 12 month contract. Then, towards the end of that I got my free upgrade to Sky Fibre Max - nothing specified in the email confirming that upgrade that it was only for a limited time. Rewind two weeks ago when that contract came to an end and spoke about my new deal, did I then enter into a new 18 month contract on the revised reduced price. I specifically said that nothing is going to change, and the move from Sky Fibre Max to Sky Superfast was nothing more than a "name/branding" change. So no, nothing to do with any luring in. But clearly, Sky have performed some sorcery behind the scenes that has taken my Max away and capped my speed to 40Mbps, which is not what I was on before - so clearly something has changed.
Standard User simon194
(experienced) Thu 01-Aug-19 12:47:46
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Re: Is Sky Broadband Superfast the same as Sky Fibre Max ?


[re: Apophis] [link to this post]
 
The new Superfast option covers both the 40/10 and 80/20 products under one price.

Coincidentally Sky rolled out a new internal checker which for many has seriously reduced their sync speed range so when they have re-contracted from Fibre Max to Superfast, they have been re-provisioned on the 40/10 product.

When I moved two and a half years ago my only option was Fibre Unlimited because the range was 33 - 53 Mbps but now on the new checker my range is 27 - 35 Mbps even though my line syncs at 40/10.
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