Is the connection any good?

I've had bad experiences with TalkTalk in the past but I am having difficulty justifying paying £35.00 a month for Zen 8000 Pro (without calls or line rental etc) when TalkTalk can offer ADSL2+ in my area for about half the price with phone etc!

Given I have been used to quality operations like PIPEX and Zen for the past 7 years am I likely to get dissapointed by TalKTalk if I switch?

What are your thoughts?

Edited by Pipexer (Sun 09-Sep-12 17:35:09)

Just make the switchover. It'll save you money and the connections not bad. Customer service isn't going to be good but there's always the members forum.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

Just make the switchover. It'll save you money and the connections not bad. Customer service isn't going to be good but there's always the members forum.

+1

In reply to a post by woweebert:

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

Just make the switchover. It'll save you money and the connections not bad. Customer service isn't going to be good but there's always the members forum.

+1

+2



Edit to add -

Make sure you register at the talk talk members forum as soon as you can as some customers have problems doing so - http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/talktalk/f/4150124-...

Edited by Jack_Hackett (Sun 09-Sep-12 19:52:13)

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

Given I have been used to quality operations like PIPEX and Zen for the past 7 years am I likely to get dissapointed by TalKTalk if I switch?

As long as you're not a heavy p2p user, you'll be fine with the devil's spawn. Like yourself, i used to be with niche isp's such as Netplan and Goscomb on a BT 20CN service but as soon as TT LLU'd my exchange in Aug 2010, i was in a major dilemma...go with talktalk direct or via a reseller such as Xilo. Cost wasn't an issue as i was already paying £45 a month with Goscomb on a 8 meg connection...but wanted higher speeds on ADSL2+ as i live quite close to the exchange. Anyway i decided to sleep with the devil and 2 years later i'm still a very happy TT customer. Probably the best isp i have ever used in terms of speeds and reliability. As others have said, stick to forum support and you won't have any issues - i had my downstream SNR lowered from 12db to 6db within 2 hrs of going live via the forums.

I'm tempted by their business service as (when you read the confusing website) it suggests not as much traffic management is going on. Might see if I can speak to someone there so they can offer the home phone and TV packages but the business broadband. Not holding much hope for that but worth a try!

TBH unless you need a static ip address, are a heavy p2p user and require decent phone support then its not worth paying a premium for their business offering. Also remember they have a 100gb per month FUP on the business service, whereas the Plus package on TT residential is truly unlimited. P2P is the only protocol TT residential throttle and even then its done dynamically...every other protocol runs at line speed 24/7. So great for gaming (using fastpath), voip, HD video streaming (Netflix HD runs great on my line).

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

Also remember they have a 100gb per month FUP on the business service, whereas the Plus package on TT residential is truly unlimited.

Unlimited with FUP is not truly unlimited.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Unlimited with FUP is not truly unlimited.

are you referring to the business or residential service? Their residential plus service is truly unlimited, their FUP applies to the cheaper essentials package. If you're referring to their unlimited (sic) business package then no-one has claimed this is truly unlimited.

Edited by deleted (Wed 12-Sep-12 13:11:04)

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

are you referring to the business or residential service? Their residential plus service is truly unlimited, their FUP applies to the cheaper essentials package.

Here's the FUP for the Plus residential package: http://www.talktalk.co.uk/legal/fup.html

Unlike BT and Sky, there is an "extreme" limit at which they can kick people off.

This is talktalk's FUP which is targeted at their essentials customers:

Fair Usage Policy
TalkTalk�s policy towards Fair Usage is that customers should be able to use the service in an appropriate manner to meet their needs. A very small number of customers use an excessive amount of the network bandwidth at peak times, to the extent it can impair the performance for others. For this reason we have a fair usage policy designed to ensure your service stays fast and reliable 24 hours a day � it involves monitoring the amount customers download and managing non-time critical traffic on our network, such as Peer-to-Peer sharing. For more information please see Broadband Traffic Management.

If a customer�s usage is continually excessive, unfair, affects other users enjoyment of our broadband service, or is not consistent with the usage we would typically expect on that customers current package, we reserve the right to upgrade customers to a package more suited for their usage. In extreme cases we may suspend or terminate the customers ability to access TalkTalk�s broadband service.

My typical usage is ~ 400gb per month on the Plus package and even got to close to 1tb a few times yet TT have not classed this as extreme...and most of this done at peak times. As of yet i don't know of anyone who's been warned for downloading too much on the Plus package so yes the Plus package is TRULY unlimited. Its the P2P downloaders TT go after

Edited by deleted (Wed 12-Sep-12 13:55:54)

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

This is talktalk's FUP which is targeted at their essentials customers:

And Plus customers.

Click here: http://sales.talktalk.co.uk/product/broadband/plus

Scroll to the bottom and click: TalkTalk Broadband & Phone

It says: "Fair usage policy applies to unlimited download allowance. Please visit talktalk.co.uk/fairusage for more details."

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

This is talktalk's FUP which is targeted at their essentials customers:

And Plus customers.

Click here: http://sales.talktalk.co.uk/product/broadband/plus

Scroll to the bottom and click: TalkTalk Broadband & Phone

It says: "Fair usage policy applies to unlimited download allowance. Please visit talktalk.co.uk/fairusage for more details."

http://www.talktalk.co.uk/legal/fair-usage-policy/?u...

Interesting, that's not the FUP linked to from the product pages. I note it says "no fixed limit", the word fixed is important I feel.

Seems to be clarified by an OCE here: http://www.talktalkmembers.com/forums/showthread.php...

So you have to make sure you don't go "completely silly".

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

I'm tempted by their business service as (when you read the confusing website) it suggests not as much traffic management is going on. Might see if I can speak to someone there so they can offer the home phone and TV packages but the business broadband. Not holding much hope for that but worth a try!

Honestly you're wasting money. It wont be that much better and UK customer services can be worse than foreign sometimes. When I was with eclipse internet I had a customer service call with a UK guy. I had never been quite so disgusted in my life. He was rude, unhelpful and cocky.

I considered going to a smaller ISP and ultimately returned to Sky.
If anything its been an advantage as Sky have the profits to send me engineers out and have never even suggested billing me for the visit. I've always been told 'if you are in the master it's free.' I had numerous engineers out freely and things got sorted.

Smaller providers would have said I might be charged and I probably would have been scared by the prospect of a giant bill.

Bigger providers can also provide good deals (even loss making deals). E.g. I have line rental for £1 which is clearly a loss making deal.

You have the members forum which is fantastic. You don't need anything more

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

This is talktalk's FUP which is targeted at their essentials customers:

And Plus customers.

Click here: http://sales.talktalk.co.uk/product/broadband/plus

Scroll to the bottom and click: TalkTalk Broadband & Phone

It says: "Fair usage policy applies to unlimited download allowance. Please visit talktalk.co.uk/fairusage for more details."

Well the proof is in the pudding...nearly every isp would consider 400gb a month to be extreme usage, yet TT haven't said a thing. From reading the TT forums, there are many who download hundreds of GB's a month on the plus package and no warning letters, no disconnection, nada. With TT fibre, i imagine some customers would even be downloading TB's of data a month...again no uproar from Plus customers

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

Well the proof is in the pudding...nearly every isp would consider 400gb a month to be extreme usage, yet TT haven't said a thing. From reading the TT forums, there are many who download hundreds of GB's a month on the plus package and no warning letters, no disconnection, nada. With TT fibre, i imagine some customers would even be downloading TB's of data a month...again no uproar from Plus customers

But going back to my original point, until Talktalk follow Sky and scrap the unlimited FUP, it's not "truly unlimited".

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Interesting, that's not the FUP linked to from the product pages. I note it says "no fixed limit", the word fixed is important I feel.

Seems to be clarified by an OCE here: http://www.talktalkmembers.com/forums/showthread.php...

So you have to make sure you don't go "completely silly".

Doesn't look like a clarification to me when OCE_Emma links to this http://www.talktalk.co.uk/legal/fup.html in Dec 2011 in which a Plus account is not specifically mentioned...

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Doesn't look like a clarification to me when OCE_Emma links to this http://www.talktalk.co.uk/legal/fup.html in Dec 2011 in which a Plus account is not specifically mentioned...

The same FUP as linked to from http://sales.talktalk.co.uk/product/broadband/plus

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Doesn't look like a clarification to me when OCE_Emma links to this http://www.talktalk.co.uk/legal/fup.html in Dec 2011 in which a Plus account is not specifically mentioned...

The same FUP as linked to from http://sales.talktalk.co.uk/product/broadband/plus

I reckon TT have just covered their claim of Plus "unlimited usage" with an FUP:

"We do have a fair usage policy, which is designed to ensure your service is fast and reliable 24 hours a day. This only involves managing non-time critical traffic on our network, such as Bittorrent or Peer-to-Peer file sharing � These services often involve huge files being uploaded and downloaded, which can cause network problems.

TalkTalk Plus customers have no restrictions on torrent or file sharing activity between midnight and 3pm. At peak times, TalkTalk Plus customers can still use those services but they may find Bittorrent or file sharing is a little slower."

However I agree that is not a truly unlimited service since they are using traffic management and there do seem to be implications elsewhere that excessive usage ("going completely silly" ) can result in sanctions.

Edited by 4M2 (Wed 12-Sep-12 15:36:34)

Thanks for your comments everyone. I think it's clear that the TalkTalk home package is not properly unlimited, but that's fair enough for the price - providing they don't go silly with the restrictions. As it happens I don't use p2p or torrent at all but I am always wary of what other stuff they slow down on the sly (or even, what effect their packet shaping system has on the overall connection).

I've been on the phone and provisionally signed up with all the additional "special discount for you" nonsense.

What is the procedure to get them to put me FASTPATH?

Did you also perhaps consider Zen Active which might be available as a 21CN WBC service on your line together with a possible retention discount?

Or would the price and the100GB usage be too much of a limiting factor?

BT are only offering 20CN 8Mbps to my exchange. TalkTalk are the only ones who have unbundled it and they are offering upto 24Mbps. Unfortunately.

Some months I go very slightly over 100GB, by the time I pay for the 2GB bonuses or whatever it then works out the same.

If Zen/BT could tell me when/if my exchange would be put on 21CN then I would hold off, but at the moment I have no reassurance (a situation where being transparent would retain my custom!)

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

BT are only offering 20CN 8Mbps to my exchange. TalkTalk are the only ones who have unbundled it and they are offering upto 24Mbps. Unfortunately.

Some months I go very slightly over 100GB, by the time I pay for the 2GB bonuses or whatever it then works out the same.

If Zen/BT could tell me when/if my exchange would be put on 21CN then I would hold off, but at the moment I have no reassurance (a situation where being transparent would retain my custom!)

TT looks like your best bet then - when considering partial LLU resellers prices such as uno Pro 24 75GB (unmetered off-peak), etc.

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

As it happens I don't use p2p or torrent at all but I am always wary of what other stuff they slow down on the sly (or even, what effect their packet shaping system has on the overall connection).

You'll not notice a slowdown then (or at least shouldn't). The packet shaping system if anything will make your experience even better as people using torrents etc wont be slowing you down. Whereas if this wasn't restricted you run the risk of being slowed down by excessive downloaders on p2p.

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

As it happens I don't use p2p or torrent at all but I am always wary of what other stuff they slow down on the sly (or even, what effect their packet shaping system has on the overall connection).
What is the procedure to get them to put me FASTPATH?

If you don't use p2p, then consider it a blessing in disguise that talktalk throttle this (albeit dynamically). It basically ensures that all other protocols run at line speed at all times. This is one of the reasons why i joined talktalk so that i don't get peak time slowdowns on http downloads, gaming and online video streaming (Netflix USA).

Once you have your TT account number register on the TT forums and ask to be put on a "24FSNR6" profile - this also lowers your SNR to 6db from TT's default of 12db as well as putting you on fastpath. This can be done on the same day as you go live...i had my line profile changed within 2 hrs of going live via the TT forum....none of this 10 day waiting nonsense which some isp's try to fob you off with.

As usual....welcome to the UK's most hated ISP

is maybe worth mentioning that P2P isn't a protocol, and most of us will use P2P rather than the server/client model in a variety of ways during our monthly computer use.

I can confirm that bittorrent is throttled for me, mostly on Sat and Sun after 7pm.

However, I have noticed no throttle on the WPN protocols.

Others say the NNTP protocols are unthrottled (newsgroups) though I don't use them myself.

In reply to a post by Myth:

is maybe worth mentioning that P2P isn't a protocol, and most of us will use P2P rather than the server/client model in a variety of ways during our monthly computer use.

I can confirm that bittorrent is throttled for me, mostly on Sat and Sun after 7pm.

However, I have noticed no throttle on the WPN protocols.

Others say the NNTP protocols are unthrottled (newsgroups) though I don't use them myself.

There do seem to be the occasional throughput slow downs with TT full LLU - I was round at my cousins place last night and we were trying to stream an iPlayer HD video which wasn't buffering adequately, at least 3500Kbps is required for smooth playback of iPlayer HD yet my cousin's throughput is normally in excess of 7000Kbps. His pc is capable of playing 1080 30p ~5Mbps YouTube videos without any problems so there may have been some congestion effecting or a throttling of the iPlayer stream?

of course iPlayer and youtube are server/client transfers, but what you said is relevant to the OP.

I've noticed iPlayer doesn't buffer while paused, so you can't even store up a bit of buffer.

But, I've had no problems iPlayering the F1 on a sunday evening, but getting the torrent rarely works till 11pm or later. I don't think these are HD streams but my connection throughput is about 3mbps max

In reply to a post by Myth:

of course iPlayer and youtube are server/client transfers, but what you said is relevant to the OP.

I've noticed iPlayer doesn't buffer while paused, so you can't even store up a bit of buffer.

But, I've had no problems iPlayering the F1 on a sunday evening, but getting the torrent rarely works till 11pm or later. I don't think these are HD streams but my connection throughput is about 3mbps max

I personally get ~11Mbps throughput 24/7 so never have any problems streaming iPlayer HD. Downloading an iPlayer video file comes down at the same speed also both with Ubuntu and Windows.

However since streaming an IPlayer video uses very little buffering the actual transfer speed needs to be only slightly more than the variable bit rate of the video (to include overheads), so perhaps the effects of congestion will be more apparent on a normally slower throughput of say 7Mbps or less?

also like to add HD streams buffering could be outside TalkTalk network and any number of transit links in the chain between your computer and the server with the content on being over utilized .

I'm not with TalkTalk anymore as i'm on a market1 exchange but in the last couple of years i was with them i don't remember any slowdown at all that effected how i was using the internet and on the rare occasion i might grab a torrent , i would always do it through a VPN with an anonymous IP ( you got to be stupid if your not tunneling up ) and again no slowdown .

You might find this http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8031/7985951955_1f7644... interesting - note how the downstream speed graph followed the variable bit rate of the 30 minute duration HD video and there was no stutter whilst streaming.

BTW. I can also download the same iPlayer 30 minute ~550MB video at a steady 11Mbps using my uno partial LLU (CPW) connection.

Edited by 4M2 (Fri 14-Sep-12 18:32:12)