Talk Talk not paying BT for bandwidth? customers suffer?

Hi

A friend of mine had Plusnet Fibre installed today, he was talking too the Openreach installer who said Talk Talk customers were suffering slow downs because Talk Talk were falling behind with bills and not paying BT for bandwidth needed ...or something like that, he said customers are only getting 2-3Mb where they would be getting 4-5Mb...??

now, as Talk Talk are LLu I thought this meant that THEY own the line and network? and wouldnt be paying BT for "bandwidth" on their own lines...am I wrong?

I was under the impression that its only on non-LLu connections such as IPstream and WBC (wholesale) where an ISP would be paying BT Wholesale for 'bandwidth'..?

can anyone clarify what this engineer was going on about? or was it just cods wallop?

some of these BT engineers are good and really take pride in their work & knowledge (usually the ones that frequent forums like TBB and Kitz)...but all the ones ive met in person at my house (7 of them) knew NOTHING about broadband provision or things such as SNR, QLN, Bit-Loading and two of them were SFI broadband engineers!!

- unless he was on about Talk Talk in a non-LLu scenario..but I dunno if you can get Talk Talk in an exchange they are not unbundled in? and lets face it..talk talk are in more exchanges than any other LLu ISP

thanks

If referring to the non llu network there would be something behind it, but otherwise engineer is risking disciplinary action

Another option is they dont understand differences in the dlm systems

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If referring to the non llu network there would be something behind it, but otherwise engineer is risking disciplinary action

Another option is they dont understand differences in the dlm systems

So you can get Talk Talk on BT wholesale... have to admit that wouldnt be a huge customer base would it? too the point it make an OR engineer mention it as if its a massive thing..? Talk Talk are unbundled quite well...

I guess that Engineer didnt get the recent flyer-shot from head office of the new "do's and dont's" hehe
http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefin...

aye it just seemed an odd thing too say... I wonder just how many exchanges talk talk are unbundled in and how many theyre not in - give a better idea of just what size of customer base they may have on non-LLu

Well for a start he wouldn't know about any of thing he has claimed to, they don't have access to information like that.

All LLU providers rent backhaul bandwidth from third party transit providers, be it BT Wholesale or someone else.

As already said, the engineer is risking disciplinary action as his actions are tantamount to slander.

Hi iZools

its snadge from dsl-zone / tech4talk

how are you matey? long time no see...

so he just full of poop or totally unsure of what he is going on about, like i said in my previous post OR have just recently reminded staff NOT to talk about such things...guess he didnt get that memo hehe - suppose he just being "open & friendly" - but is it worth your job?

Like a field engineer would be privy to commercially confidential info like that.

I don't think TT offers BB where they are not LLU'd, at least not now. I've done an experiment with various addresses in 2 of their non-LLU exchanges, Moorgate & Alderminster, and they always refuse:

We're unable to offer you this TalkTalk service as it is not currently available.

I think this BT Openreach needs reminding of the following document:
http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/aboutus/equival...

Pages 3 and 4 make it clear about comments that engineers (including contractors) should be had with customers.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Like a field engineer would be privy to commercially confidential info like that.

I don't think TT offers BB where they are not LLU'd, at least not now. I've done an experiment with various addresses in 2 of their non-LLU exchanges, Moorgate & Alderminster, and they always refuse:

We're unable to offer you this TalkTalk service as it is not currently available.

thats what I thought, but i thought I saw offerings on Talk Talk website (or somewhere) for non-network area offerings? - oh well. also iZools pointed out that they may own the last mile but backhaul is usually someone else's for whom they will have to pay rental too , probably either for rental of the backhaul itself OR the amount of bandwidth along it...probably the latter...

you never know, he may know someone really high up in the game who knows this information hehehe

thanks for the replies guys!

I believe TalkTalk use Openreach backhaul circuits, typically 1 Gbit/s as its cheaper than 3 * 100Mbits/s however they do dimension their backhaul at less than 100 kbits/s per user last time they published figures, and even their peak demand isn't a mile off that.

Now square that with something talktalk said about at peak times seeing traffic equivalent to 1Mbps per customer online

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Now square that with something talktalk said about at peak times seeing traffic equivalent to 1Mbps per customer online

Was that when they claimed a peak throughput in excess of LINX ? A units error IIRC. ie they were out by a factor of 8 by saying it was bytes when it was bits.

http://www.cable.co.uk/news/talktalk-reports-peak-ju... 328 Gbits/s divided by 2.75m online = 120 kbits/s each. 4.2 million subscribers at the time, 120 * 2.75/4.2 = 78 kbits/s per subscriber QED

Edited by yarwell (Thu 28-Feb-13 11:43:44)

In reply to a post by paulb100:

i thought I saw offerings on Talk Talk website (or somewhere) for non-network area offerings?

Yes, they do state a surcharge for being outside their network area. But that doesn't mean they have to offer it when you check availability and it could be from the past.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Now square that with something talktalk said about at peak times seeing traffic equivalent to 1Mbps per customer online

Was that when they claimed a peak throughput in excess of LINX ? A units error IIRC. ie they were out by a factor of 8 by saying it was bytes when it was bits.

http://www.cable.co.uk/news/talktalk-reports-peak-ju... 328 Gbits/s divided by 2.75m online = 120 kbits/s each. 4.2 million subscribers at the time, 120 * 2.75/4.2 = 78 kbits/s per subscriber QED

so what does all this mean with regards to the original post? its possibly true? all i know is my Dad & Sister are on Talk Talk and get excellent speeds at peak-times (16Mbps in throughput ..each) as ive tested them..not for a month or so though..

Possibly true, yes it is possibly true but it is not the case.

Put it this way BT Retail won't have a significantly different allocation per user at peak times.

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2013/01/uk-isp-...

I didn't run it as did not get timely confirmation if bits or Bytes

So either around 200 Kbit/sec or eight times that

so what does all this mean with regards to the original post? its possibly true?

It's true in that Talk Talk LLU uses BT Openreach backhaul capacity and non-LLU is via BT Wholesale, so if the peak time capacity is inadequate it's because TT have under-sized it and "not bought enough". I doubt there's any issue about not paying bills, they would be cut off if that were the case.