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Standard User David_W
(experienced) Fri 20-Sep-13 22:24:40
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Re: Talktalk fraudulently moving my services from BT


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
In re: your 3 options near the foot of your post, as there is no privity of contract between OP & TT, I don't see how the OP can instruct TT to do anything; maybe he may request.

Option 3 may be the closest he may achieve in that he may strike a new contract with TT to provide service on his own line and to effectively do to the unnamed woman what she did to him. Any correspondence from TT about the takeover of the line would most likely be sent to his address.

But equally well the OP can make a new contract(s) with any providers to do much the same.
My language was maybe a little imprecise in the options, as you point out. The OP can instruct TalkTalk in respect of a new contract in his own name should he so wish (option 3).

The OP also appears to have the right to instruct TalkTalk to transfer or cease the line and phone number goes. The transfer to TalkTalk was not at his instigation notwithstanding his failure to prevent it from happening, also he is not bound by TalkTalk's minimum contract period if he has not entered into a contract with TalkTalk. In any event, I'm fairly certain Ofcom requires transfers to be made on request, notwithstanding any outstanding minimum contract period, with the losing service provider having the usual range of contractual remedies against the customer who departing early (typically by levying an early termination fee).

The OP cannot acquire any rights to service under the contract between TalkTalk and the mystery woman, as he is a third party to that contract.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 20-Sep-13 22:37:27
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Re: Talktalk fraudulently moving my services from BT


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by David_W:
The OP also appears to have the right to instruct TalkTalk to transfer or cease the line and phone number goes.
I'm not clear what confers on him that right seeing he has no contractual relationship with TT. Yes, he may grab the line & phone # by going with others providers (Option 3 variant) but there seems no way to stop a line dead w/out instructing the current provider under an existing viable contract with them.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Fri 20-Sep-13 22:49:03
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Re: Talktalk fraudulently moving my services from BT


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
Initially the OP suspected his brothers of using a "fraudulent name" but he didn't know what the name was. However later it emerged that it was an unknown female name.

Perhaps his sisters were playing tricks on him also whilst he was on holiday and sleeping smirk


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Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 20-Sep-13 22:56:53
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Re: Talktalk fraudulently moving my services from BT


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Perhaps the brother's "fraudulent name" was of the female of the species and it is not an unknown female stranger. After all, kit and letters are being delivered to OP's address..

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Fri 20-Sep-13 22:59:26)

Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Fri 20-Sep-13 22:57:46
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Re: Talktalk fraudulently moving my services from BT


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
smile
Standard User David_W
(experienced) Sat 21-Sep-13 08:41:07
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Re: Talktalk fraudulently moving my services from BT


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
In reply to a post by David_W:
The OP also appears to have the right to instruct TalkTalk to transfer or cease the line and phone number goes.
I'm not clear what confers on him that right seeing he has no contractual relationship with TT. Yes, he may grab the line & phone # by going with others providers (Option 3 variant) but there seems no way to stop a line dead w/out instructing the current provider under an existing viable contract with them.
The legal rights are a little unclear, but I would argue that as TalkTalk had no right to transfer the line and phone number (as they did so without the original poster's express permission), the original poster's right to determine the fate of the line and phone number is unaffected by TalkTalk becoming involved. Of necessity, these rights must be exercised via TalkTalk, as they are the current custodian of the line and number.

Standard User pcoventry76
(knowledge is power) Sat 21-Sep-13 15:45:05
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Re: Talktalk fraudulently moving my services from BT


[re: uppi] [link to this post]
 
An ISP cannot defraud someone by placing you on their competitors network.

"fraud is intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual;"

No gain is made by them - no damage is caused to you

The end..

You have the internet - use google/wiki once and a while!

"
Standard User David_W
(experienced) Sun 22-Sep-13 09:37:13
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Re: Talktalk fraudulently moving my services from BT


[re: pcoventry76] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by pcoventry76:
An ISP cannot defraud someone by placing you on their competitors network.

"fraud is intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual;"

No gain is made by them - no damage is caused to you

The end..

You have the internet - use google/wiki once and a while!
This shows the danger of using Wikipedia for this type of research, as that is not the definition of fraud in the law of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

The definition of fraud is found in sections 1 to 4 of the Fraud Act 2006. The active version here is section 2, fraud by false representation, which can, in some circumstances, be committed by the legal person of a limited company and for which both the responsible officer and the company itself may bear liability (see section 12).


Fraud by false representation can be committed by making a gain, causing another to make a loss or exposing another to a risk of loss. In this case, the person on the contract is exposed to the risk of loss, as there is an expectation they will pay for service they are not receiving, whilst TalkTalk can make a gain from the charges they are not entitled to.

However, to be s. 2 FA 2006 fraud, there must be a false representation (see section 2(2)), and that representation must be dishonest. In this case, it would be a false representation for TalkTalk to state they have agreement of the original poster to supply service knowing they they do not.

The definition of dishonesty is found in case law (R v Ghosh [1982] EWCA Crim 2). If the matter is clearly dishonest, then it is dishonest. If not, the Ghosh test applies - to be dishonest, an action must be dishonest according to the standards of reasonable people, and the person carrying out the act must know it is dishonest according to those standards. Whether the person regards their act as dishonest according to their own standards is immaterial - it's a largely objective test.


The likelihood is that the original poster's phone number has been mixed up with that of the lady on the contract (mistake, in which case TalkTalk are not deliberately falsely representing their position) or TalkTalk have been maliciously misled over the contract (in which case any false representation from TalkTalk cannot be dishonest, as it is a consequence of talking the false representation of another in good faith).

Standard User johnjburness
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 22-Sep-13 11:54:00
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Re: Talktalk fraudulently moving my services from BT


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by David_W:
The likelihood is that the original poster's phone number has been mixed up with that of the lady on the contract (mistake, in which case TalkTalk are not deliberately falsely representing their position) or TalkTalk have been maliciously misled over the contract (in which case any false representation from TalkTalk cannot be dishonest, as it is a consequence of talking the false representation of another in good faith).


Many thanks for a clear explanation on the definition of fraud.

Obviously we do not have sufficient specific details to understand what has actually occurred here! Although I would hazard a guess that it is Talk-Talk upto their normal tricks, that they tried to dupe me with many years ago!

Some time ago my wife got approached, by a TT Rep at a local supermarket, over how they could save her lots of money on her phone calls. Thinking she was being helpful she filled up a form to "obtain more details" (unfortunately without fully checking that actual details on the form). Needless to say, they had duped her into to filling out an Order Form.

When I discovered the form (she still hadn't appreciated that she had been duped into signing an Order Form), I immediately contacted TT - but they would NOT accept my Call as I was "not the account holder" (the existing BT Line was in my name, NOT my wife's name). Furthermore, they would not speak to my wife unless she provided our Bank Details (allegedly for Security confirmation purposes, although she had NOT provided these when she had been duped). In effect, TT were NOT prepared to talk to anyone (regardless of who was the Account Holder)

I was left with no choice but to directly contact BT & explain the situation & they confirmed that a note would be added to my account stating that I had NOT authorised TT to take over my Phone-Line.

Accordingly I was a bit surprised to subsequently receive a "Sorry-you-are-leaving-letter", from BT. When I contacted BT they stated that they were required by Ofcom to take TT's instruction, even though I had stated that I had NOT authorised such a transfer!! After a lot of agro, I got the transfer cancelled.

A few weeks later, I was even further surprised to receive yet another "Sorry-you-are-leaving-letter", from BT. On contacting BT again, they told me that TT had submitted another request indicating that I had changed my mind! Obviously I had to get that transfer cancelled as well.

Whilst I was clearly annoyed at TT's attempt to take over my line, I was equally annoyed by the fact that BT were prepared to let TT take over the line when they FULLY knew it was not authorised.

A complaint to BT just obtained the standard response that they were fully complying with Ofcom Procedures, although they were unable to supply me with details of the actual Ofcom Procedure.


One of the significant things, in my case, which possibly has a bearing on the OP's case is "Who is the Account Holder"? TT had manipulated it so that I was no longer the Account Holder, as far as they were concerned!

Regards,
John
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 22-Sep-13 15:03:28
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Re: Talktalk fraudulently moving my services from BT


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by David_W:
The likelihood is that the original poster's phone number has been mixed up with that of the lady on the contract
I find this unlikely as had a lady stranger signed up with TT and given, or had incorrectly recorded by TT, a wrong phone # she would at least given her correct name & address. In which case letters and equipment would not be arriving at OP's address, as he has stated.

It would not surprise me that the TT charges are being charged to OP's bank account, as the mischievous brother gave TT all the correct details except a false name on TT account, but to be paid for on OP's Direct Debit so it passed any credit check.

So, all in all, the OP appears to have a valid contract with TT except with the wrong name on it.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
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