TalkTalk and ADSL Max?

Hi there.

My first post here so please be gentle. My father in-law has a TalkTalk broadband contract and is signed-up to their "up to 8Mb" service. He was complaining to me about his connection and the fact that he can not get more than 1.8Mbps download speed (using thinkbroadband speed checker). I have looked at his router and the stats are below.

ADSL State Show Time
Data Path Fast
Operation Mode G.dmt
Bandwidth Down/Up(kbps) 2272 / 288
SNR Margin Down/Up(dB) 26.0 / 29.0
Attenuation Down/Up(dB) 38.5 / 14.0
Power Down/Up(dBm) 9.0 / 11.5

Considering he is on an "up to 8Mb" package and he is only 1.4km from the exchange (which I have checked is definitely ADSL Max enabled, but not LLU), surely he should be connected at something better than 2272/288? I have tried different MTU settings and moved the router to the BT main box, but nothing improves the speed.

Any thoughts for you all? It seems to me that TT have got him connected to the old ADSL system and not to ADSL max (which I think should adaptively set the best speed possible). I did read on another website that TT did not use ADSL Max and that you could only get 8Mb if you are LLU, is this really the case? If so then surely the product is mis-sold if he is paying for up to 8 Mb when his is connected to a non LLU exchange.

Thanks all in advance.

Robbo1

Technically he should be getting the maximum connection speed if he is indeed using ADSL Max.

However TalkTalk will have to pay BTw a premium for him to be on ADSL Max so I wouldn't particularly expect him to be on that. It depends how exactly TalkTalk describe his particular connection. As far as I'm aware there are two types of TalkTalk connection.

* LLU - this can offer speeds up to 24Mb on request. People using this should be getting free broadband.
* BTw IPStream - customers on exchanges that haven't been unbundled will be on this system and paying some nominal fee for their broadband (�5 last I heard).

I would expect that TalkTalk make some effort to differentiate between the two products because the latter is likely to have service limitations in order to try to keep the price down. I can well believe that if the price is still �5 they will not want people on ADSL Max because it's going to lose them a lot of money.

In summary:I'm not surprised by what you've said and I'd expect TalkTalk to be able to point to some account/marketing information confirming a 2Mb limitation.

Edited by Andrue (Wed 02-Jul-08 13:43:46)

Talk Talk are liars. Their "free up to 8M" broadband is up to 2M and costs �15/month if you aren't on an LLU exchange. For some reason it takes 3 weeks, rather than the 1-1.5 via other providers.

I just gave up trying to navigate their website. There is a note saying that it's subject to availability but I couldn't find the price.

�15 for 2Mb? That's pretty awful.
Not being totally upfront and clear about it? Awful.

Edited by Andrue (Wed 02-Jul-08 13:58:56)

Urm IPStream Max from BTW is actually slightly cheaper than Home 2000 now

If you plug in a non-LLU phone number like mine (which syncs at 8128 and says 7M on the BT checker) it says..

"You can currently get broadband for �15 a month. If in the near future we're able to offer you free broadband in your area the planned go live date will be below" (this text is an image).

"We are continuing to update our network so we can offer more people Free Broadband.
Sign up now for one of our TalkTalk call plans with line rental and broadband
and we will let you know when Free Broadband becomes available in your area. If you'd like
to understand more about this offer then please call us on 0800 049 6298."

Calling plan will activate 3 week (s)
Line rental will activate: 3 week (s)
Your broadband will activate: 06 August 08 giving you a speed of up to 2 Mbps

Yes, he is paying �15 per month and getting 2Mb. Their website is rubbish and the small print says "up to 8Mb depending upon distance from exchange" it does NOT say "up to 8Mb on LLU for free but �15 and only 2Mb if you are not connected to an LLU exchange " which appears to be their un-written policy.

I have to say I am really shocked. I sympathise with some of these BB companies which are getting hammered by customers over their up to 8Mb quotes and agree that it is difficult to specify the exact speed a customer will get at any time, but TT seem to really be taking advantage and seem to be actively lying to their customers. The customer help at TT keep telling him that "You are connected at the fasted speed your line can support", which is absolute tosh, he is connected at the fastest speed that they can connect him to maintain their huge profit margins from what should be valued customers.

I think he is going to speak to the trading standards. My advice to him is to leave ASAP, but no-doubt he will be the one in default of contract if he leaves early!!!! These companies are outrageous!

Robbo1

Talk Talk has been trialing the BT Wholesale Max IPStream product for almost two years now, a clear request may get you moved over to it if that is what you want.

The line looks capable of running a lot faster.

Talk Talk go by the idea that 2 is between 0 and 8 which is what the up to covers. Rather than it referring to a fully rate adaptive product. One downside of the broadband being just a freebie

But sadly it is not a freebie, he is paying �15 on top of his telephone line rental and call package!

MrSaffron

You say "if that is what you want"... do you mean that is isn't a good idea to change over? I presume that "BT Wholesale Max IPStream product" is just ADSL Max?

Thanks

Robbo1

yarwell,

That is interesting that it states the maximum speed of 2Mb at that stage in the application, it doesn't anywhere else in their small print and it may be the contractual bit that keeps them legal. He may well have been presented with this information when he applied (not sure). However, since the small print says "fastest your line can support" does this really mean that he shouldn't be put on an ADSL Max product?

The problem is, when customers are looking at like-for-like branded products, you expect them to all be fairly much the same. You wouldn't expect to look at 10 different cars, all saying "This car will have the biggest engine possible, up to 2.0 ltrs" and then at the point of sale finding out that it is only possible to fit a 1.2 engine in a car of that size. Any layman would probably say "well if that is the biggest engine you can fit in, then you are the experts" and would probably expect that all the other cars in the range which said "up to 2.0 ltrs" would have the same size (1.2 ltr) engine too". It is just a bit off if you ask me.

Robbo1

Going to Max should be fine on your line
The second bit about Max is correct.

True...but it may be �10 if they signed up some time ago I suspect

It might be worth the OP saying exactly what they pay a month to Talk Talk, if its around the �35 mark then line rental/calls/broadband deals can be had for less probably, all depending on the level of your usage.

Line rental and a basic calls deal is �10 a month, careful analysis of the phone bill is needed to find the best deal
and plenty of reasonable BB deals for �15 to �20 a month.

e.g. Plusnet do �10 a month phone rental and �15 a month for 15GB allowance even if ignoring current promos

In reply to:

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you expect them to all be fairly much the same.

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that would be an error, IMHO.

To use your engine analogy I wouldn't regard all 2 litre engined cars the same I would be looking at power output, torque, mph/1000 rpm, fuel consumption etc to choose between them.

T-T is a cut down to a price service and they save money wherever they can.

I agree that in advertising "up to 8M" they should provide this where available even if this means using MaxDSL from BT Wholesale (which is after all "available").

The ASA didn't agree with me because claims on the T-T website are not advertising, and the adverts in papers etc usually steers clear of saying things they can be pulled up on - having been caught once.

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IPStream Max from BTW is actually slightly cheaper than Home 2000 now

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the potential demands on the BT Centrals may be their concern as it's well oversubscribed to start with.

If the OP asks for an ADSL Max upgrade on www.talktalkmembers.com he will probably get it free of charge. It appears that the CEO's team have more leeway with the power to offer 8Meg BTw connections than the normal TT 1st line customer service.

In reply to:

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It appears that the CEO's team have more leeway with the power to offer 8Meg BTw connections than the normal TT 1st line customer service.

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WTF should anyone need to ask via a backdoor in order to get an "up to 8M" service when they signed up to buy an "up to 8M" service ? What is the justification for putting them on slower fixed speed products ?

The OP should go to Trading Standards with this.

In reply to:

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WTF should anyone need to ask via a backdoor in order to get an "up to 8M" service when they signed up to buy an "up to 8M" service ? What is the justification for putting them on slower fixed speed products ?

The OP should go to Trading Standards with this.

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Unfortunately up to 8Mbps means any speed below 8Mbps so I doubt whether Trading Standards would succeed in any legal action. It is the same as unlimited. It means on all the time not unlimited downloads in an ISP advertising context..

In reply to:

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Unfortunately up to 8Mbps means any speed below 8Mbps so I doubt whether Trading Standards would succeed in any legal action.

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Well they can have me as an Expert Witness for free to start with. An "up to 8M" product is a rate adaptive variable speed product that goes as fast as the line allows. A fixed speed 2M product like Talk Talk use is none of these things.

They are liars, advertising one thing and selling another.

In reply to:

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An "up to 8M" product is a rate adaptive variable speed product that goes as fast as the line allows.

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I doubt whether TT use that definition in their sales pitch because if they had done then they would already have been prosecuted. Look at the way BT has been rubbishing Virgin Media speed claims with the ASA. Why haven't they done so with TT?

In reply to:

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I doubt whether TT use that definition in their sales pitch

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They don't, that is my stance. I have emailed trading standards to start the ball rolling.

Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 would appear to apply - business practices which will disadvantage the average customer by leading them to make a choice they would otherwise not have made. The OP's father would not have chosen T-T if he had known the full story.

T-T's deceit is more complex and subtle than the cases BT has been pursuing, and only affects ~30% of the population.

Thank you all for your comments. I agree with yarwell. I think as a general rule I think we are in agreement that TT is not particularly clear on what speed they will provide. Their terms and conditions of BB say

"We will try to give you the �download� Transmission Speed that you have signed up for. This may be 8 mbps but we cannot guarantee that you will always be able to get this Transmission Speed. If we cannot provide you with the Transmission Speed you have signed up for, we will give you the next available lower Transmission Speed. The Transmission Speed may also change if you move house because they are dependent on your proximity to your local telephone exchange. You accept that �upload� speeds will always be slower than �download� speeds. We will provide you with further details of these upon request."

From this against the words above, I am not sure they are really being fair. They say "if we cannot provide you with the Transmission Speed you have signed up for", but what they mean is "If we decide we don't want to give you the transmission speed you thought you were signing up for because it cost us extra cash to BT". But at the end of the day, it looks from an earlier post that he may well have been told at the point of purchase that he would be on 2 Mb.

With all that said, with no mention of the 2 Mb thing in the T&Cs of the contract it is very easy to miss that and assume you would be given an ADSL Max line automatically if you are connected to an ADSL Max enabled exchange. This is my mind is VERY POOR SALES PRACTICE at least and TT should have a duty of care and moral obligation to their customers to make this VERY CLEAR on the contract by differentiating between LLU and non-LLU customers.

Whether there is a case to answer at the Trading Standards I am not sure, but they really shouldn't be able to get away with it. Computer equipment and services is a market where the vast majority of customers are very unaware of what they are actually buying, and there should be far better regulation (from government or industry self regulation) to ensure that customers are protected better. Otherwise people will continue to be miss sold products and pay through the nose for substandard products.

Does my father in-law need faster than 2Mb?... Probably not! But he is paying a lot of money in good faith for what he thought was an up to 8Mb package realistically thinking that he would get something like 4-6Mb connection speed and getting far less. That in my view is very wrong!

I would still advise your father in law to join the www.talktalkmembers.com forum and ask for a free ADSL Max upgrade.

Thanks,

I will advise him to do it.

Thanks all

Robbo1