ADSL Sync Problems

sorry for thie sort of cross post as I have brought this topic up before, and although i have received some good comments I'm not really getting anywhere.
about 4 months ago my dad was syncing at about
6000kbps down and 512 kbps up
then it suddenly dropped to about
300kbps down 64 kbps up
the downstream sometimes went up a bit if I reboot the router a couple of times but upstream pretty much stays at 64kbps.

line stats were
noise margin upstream: 12 db
output power downstream: 14 db
attenuation upstream: 18 db
and
noise margin downstream: 14 db
output power upstream: 10 db
attenuation downstream: 27 db

he has had his line tested and nothing wrong was found, he has also been though all the other checks, although he only has the older style bt master socket so no test connection.
he was on an AOL 8 mbt connection.after asking for his mac he was persuaded to upgrade to a 24mb connection.
the old connection as far as I can tell was BT and the new one LLU

since upgrading the router just reports the ADSL line is down, HOWEVER the router has connected briefly at least 2 times as its updated his dynds which I use for a vpn connection.
it hasn't however stayed connected long enough to actually negotiate the VPN connection or for me to try and connect to the router to check its stats (I live about 100 miles from my dad).

so it looks like the DSL connection is active, but his connection is too week or something for the router to see it.

he has tried with more than 1 router and got the same results.

any thoughts on where he can progress from here, or where his problem could lie?

thanks
Steve

What is his Line/Connection Mode? G.992.x etc?

it was ADSL_G.dmt, with those line stats and teh 8meg connection, however no idea what it is now after the 'upgrade' to 24mb as I haven't been able to catch it while its connected.(which currently looks like a couple of seconds up every 5-6 hours).

althoughI have asked my Dad to try and get me a log

What's his ISP got to say about it?

its AOL need I say more...
My dad has yet to talk to them on the current issue, but from previous calls on the 64kbps issue, just hours spent talking to script monkeys, doing speed tests and being told that 300/64 is normal for that line.
after requesting a mac, he got half an hour with some proper teck support person, went through all the speed tests, plugged in master socket, etc.with no effect so an engineer of some sort was sent around to test the line. he said the line was fine.
My dad was then offered the upgrade and change to LLU and 24mb which they said may fix the problem, but has resulted now in no internet at all.
He probably wont be able to give them a call before Tuesday now, but in the meantime it would be nice to have some clues as to waht the issue could be, assuming he gets to talk to someone in technical support with some sort of technical knowledge.
ta
Steve

Does his router at least sync with the exchange, even if it doesn't connect to Net?

If so, get him to get the router stats and post them here.

Also, chances are it's an authentication issue. Check his connection username and password? Also his other connection settings: Protocol:, Encapsulation, VPI / VCI?

AOL have a habit of changing username/pwd when they change anything to do with connection. Did they send him a new router?

It is also possible that the connection settings are different from IPStream to LLU.

On the face of it, it does sound like a borderline line which has been pushed over the edge by the extra demands of ADSL2+ and now doesn't work at all. Upgrading a line that's only capable of 300kbps to ADSL2+ sounds like idiocy on the part of the ISP given that I read that the line needs to be circa 4Mbps for any benefit to be seen, otherwise, the upgrade can be detrimental if anything.

Question is how the line became borderline in the first place e.g. if it's the same, original issue.

The thing that strikes me is that the slow down and then inability to sync is precisely what I had with Pipex when the exchange was enabled for ADSL Max - your description exactly matches the symptoms which lasted two weeks until I got a MAC code and moved to Zen, which solved it then and there, so I never did find out what the problem was.

Attn. = 27 dB shouldn't be borderline! It once did 6 Meg.

I get 16 Meg from same attn. on ADSL2+.

Since switching to 24mb and I assume LLU, the router just says that DSL is down. HOWEVER it has on at least 2 occasions since then managed to tell dyndns its ip

I therefore assume it hsa managed to login and connect at least a couple of times, however based on other evidence (my router has no evidence if it trying to negotiate a vpn connection, and whenever anyone actually looks at the router it says there is no DSL) it looks like it only manages to stay up a few seconds.

therefore so far no line stats on the 24 meg connection.
also the last time it managed to connect was at 15:30 yesterday (19th).

at ;east hopefully with no connection my dad wont have to put up with endless speed tests when he phones them

Yes O looked at the attenuation etc and couldn't see any reason for the poor connection.
We have checked everything in the house as far as possible, although without a proper master socket I'm not sure its possible to rule out a wiring issue on an extension somewhere, but we get the same results with it plugged in there and all other phones etc unplugged.

We had hoped that if it was at the exchange, that the connection being moved to their LLU etc may fix that issue.. obviously it didn't., so does that rule out the exchange, although as yet we have no actual proof it is now on their LLU.

could it be the line, I'm not sure what was tested when the engineer came around, and the voice side of things definitely sounds ok and we've done a silent line test.

My guess is that your ISP has switched your line to C&W wholesale (because it is cheaper than BT) just like Demon have been doing and like thousands of other people you are now suffering. Probably best to switch to an ISP that uses BT wholesale, or at the very least avoid any ISP that is doing you the disservice of providing LLU from C&W.

AOL means a LLU switch to TalkTalk

If it was bad before the switch and the same now it does not point to a fault. Presume the phones are working. Who was the engineer that attended working for - Openreach. Question would be what speeds did he see when connected

300/64 for a 27dB attenuation line is what any sensible engineer would consider bad. So suspect you may have just had the line checked for voice.

Solution for me would be this, give ISP an ultimatium, i.e. 7 days further to resolve issue of not getting a connection, and then to be released from contract and migrate using a MAC to an ISP willing to help liase.

Have you tried new microfilters? A bad one may be giving this problem. Also check the ADSL hardware on another ADSL line if you can, routers can fail.

I've seen short connects before when the router's Connection Settings are wrong for AOL. Time to look at these. What are they?

II'll try and get that information from my Dad, however when he tried using their router with their setup disc it just reached a 'no DSL connection check everything is plugged in' stage.

the brief connections I am currently getting are via a zyxel that he was using before as it has a built in vpn and that is setup to what used to work, sort of standard pppoa setting, although the zyxel also supports 'zero setup', but I'm not sure how well that works.

Don't bother with any setup CDs!

Let him access the router using its browser interface (addy something like http://192.168.x.y) and look at its Config or Setup pages. At the same time see if there is anything significant in its Status pages. Don't just take the word of the setup s/ware that there is no DSL connection.

Thanks will ask him to look at the settings, although I can confirm that that on the routers status page whenever anyone has looked it just says 'DSL Down' and the DSL light on the router confirms this... although it did breifly connect again at 11:45

Hi, ok my Dad now has a connection, but its still rubbish.

368 kbps / 66 kbps
DSL Mode: ADSL2+ Mode

No stats yet as I can't seem to remotely talk to his router, but will try and get them shortly.

looks like it may have taken a while negotiating the connection.I almost wish it hadn't as it would have been easier to persuade that aol something is wrong.

thanks
Steve

ok got my dad to switch the router off and on again and the vpn is back up, but it is really painful

connection is now at
DSL Up 861 kbps / 66 kbps

so looks consistently 2kbps upstream more than before.

what really concerns me is the upstream speed, which now makes it impossible to help my dad sort out any problems using remote desktop software etc.

it used to be 512 up so it should be possible..

line stats are now

noise margin upstream: 9 db
output power downstream: 16 db
attenuation upstream: 12 db

noise margin downstream: 10 db
output power upstream: 9 db
attenuation downstream: 31 db

what do these say I should be getting ?

thanks
Steve

Thanks for the reply. will ask my dad about the engineer,
Yes have tried different micro filters and routers. all give consistently bad results.

main problem is that he now does have a connection, although its dire, especially the upstream speeds, which I need to be higher so that I can provide support to my dad, and it did used to be almost 10 times faster.. hmm

Steve

Edited by deleted (Mon 20-Sep-10 21:49:29)

P.S. sorry about the monologue, but just noticed it now says
DSL Mode: ADSL2 Mode
where as before the router reboot it said
DSL Mode: ADSL2+ Mode

no idea if that means anything

Steve

So the problem was that he had to change his username/pwd, as I originally suggested?

He should be getting about 14.5 Meg on that attn. on ADSL2+. Attn. is up 4 dB due to going from G.DMT to ADSL2+. He should be connecting on ADSL2+; ADSL2 (only) is only beneficial on long lines, but perhaps it is using it cuz his speed is extraordinary low.

Need to find out why this is. Looks like an internal wiring problem, esp. as speed was low before the upgrade. Has he tried it with all phones etc. unplugged and router plugged into master socket with no extn. cable? Hope he is using filter? Could try changing that in case it is faulty. Has he tried removing the ring wire?

Can he now get those router settings I asked for? There might be some mileage in playing with them.

(Can't keep swapping thread. Can we keep to this one please?)

In reply to a post by SteveDH:

about 4 months ago my dad was syncing at about 6000kbps down and 512 kbps up
then it suddenly dropped to about 300kbps down 64 kbps up

Did anything happen around the time of the "suddenly"? New kit or phones?

Got a set of the stats now it is connected?

It is possible if the sync never varies on reboots, that ISP has locked the connection to a 300/64 setting

Does all point to wiring, like a phone plugged in that does not have a filter (easily missed when behind furniture)

If AOL are saying that the speed is fine, then any other advice they give I would end up laughing at

Andrew

no the password was correctly set at the start, it just seemed to take a few days to get a stable connection, maybe it was negotiating down to that speed.

The results are the same with all other phones and anything else that can be unplugged, unplugged, and the router plugged into the main socket (which is the old style so no test socket). I have also checked with different filters and routers.

speed-wise it sort of depends on who you end up talking to, but I have been told that is the speed he should expect, dispite having 10 times that before and all the speed estimates (where you type in your phone number) agreeing that it should be faster.

No one wants to know about line stats, and you still get asked to do countless speed tests dispite the fact that the issue is the sync speed.

If it does look like internal wiring, any suggestions on how best to handle it, otherwise I need to give my dad as much ammo as possible for when he next phones them.


current connection
DSL Mode: ADSL2+ Mode
642 kbps / 84 kbps

PPPoA
Multiplexing VC
VPI 0
VCI 38
MTU 1400

and full DSL line status

noise margin upstream: 9 db
output power downstream: 16 db
attenuation upstream: 12 db
tone 0- 31: 00 00 00 00 23 54 44 33 20 22 22 00 00 00 00 00
tone 32- 63: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 64- 95: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 96-127: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 128-159: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 160-191: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 192-223: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 224-255: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 256-287: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 288-319: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 320-351: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 352-383: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 384-415: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 416-447: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 448-479: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 480-511: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
noise margin downstream: 12 db
output power upstream: 7 db
attenuation downstream: 32 db
tone 0- 31: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 32- 63: 00 00 10 00 01 00 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 64- 95: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 20 00
tone 96-127: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 128-159: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 160-191: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 192-223: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 224-255: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 256-287: 02 23 23 33 33 33 33 43 33 33 20 02 32 23 33 33
tone 288-319: 02 30 22 22 22 22 22 22 22 22 22 20 20 20 21 10
tone 320-351: 01 20 10 00 00 01 01 22 21 00 02 22 11 12 02 21
tone 352-383: 21 10 21 10 10 11 12 11 11 10 00 01 10 11 11 11
tone 384-415: 11 10 11 21 10 11 11 11 10 11 11 11 11 11 11 10
tone 416-447: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 448-479: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 480-511: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00

Try forcing the mode to standard ADSL (g.dmt) and getting the stats then (if it syncs!).

I'm not sure I can do that with this router, but the stats at the start of the thread
i.e.
noise margin upstream: 12 db
output power downstream: 14 db
attenuation upstream: 18 db
and
noise margin downstream: 14 db
output power upstream: 10 db
attenuation downstream: 27 db
at
300kbps down 64 kbps up

where when it was on g.dmt

I wish I had the stats for when it was connecting at 6000/512 but as it was working ok then there was no real need to record them..
thanks
Steve

My apologies, I missed that. Don't bother trying to force g.dmt.

I can only echo MrSaffron's suggestion of giving AOL a time-period to sort the problem or be considered in breach of contract.

ok stats at the bottom of this thread as you have now probably seen, however thats one thing I'm worried about, maybe the culprit is being removed, but as the connection may be locked to that speed, it stays the same, so it just gets plugged in again.

I'm thinking that as it seems to take a couple of days to get a stable connection that maybe it tried at the top speed again and then took a while to get to a speed that was stable.

however the speed does now fluctuate a bit
its now 1541 kbps / 66 kbps
although an hour or so ago it was
642 kbps / 84 kbps
which also implies the connection isn't very stable
although the logs not particularly helpful as it doesn't show any relevant information about that

If it were my house, I'd be disconnecting all the wiring too, apart form the incoming wires and testing just into that socket.

This is what a visiting engineer should do, and then fit an NTE5 if this improves matters.

As its LLU my usual tricks with BT Wholesale won't work

Based on attenuation I would suggest that the line has always had a problem, 6Meg sync from your attenuation is low. I can manage 6.4Meg sync at 49dB

In reply to a post by SteveDH:

current connection
DSL Mode: ADSL2+ Mode
642 kbps / 84 kbps

PPPoA
Multiplexing VC
VPI 0
VCI 38
MTU 1400

As an experiment can you try with:
Protocol: PPPoE
Multiplexing: LLC
and see if it helps. There is some confusion as to which is the best setting with AOL.

Also, separately, try MTU = 1450 and 1432 and see which is better.

May I ask when you post your speeds to also report DSL Mode, attn. & NM to put into context.

Thanks for all the advice.
it looks like the problem has sorted itself, no idea how as nothing has been touched recently, but it is now synced at
6329 kbps / 708 kbps
maybe I just needed time for it to retrain or something

btw his current stats are
noise margin upstream: 11 db
output power downstream: 20 db
attenuation upstream: 12 db

noise margin downstream: 12 db
output power upstream: 12 db
attenuation downstream: 32 db

just curious, are those consent with 6k or should it be capable of more, however 6k's fine its more than twice what I can get, and at least the problem has now gone away.
thanks
Steve

the only thing I can think of is that his alarm was serviced at roughly that time, but even unplugging the alarms dialler doesn't seem to improve the situation.. maybe the exchange was upgraded or something, but I don't know how I'd find that out

thanks, well its now synced back to 6Meg, so there's no way I'll be able to suggest to AOL that there's a problem But I may have a look at the wiring when I go down at Christmas, maybe even look at sorting out an NTE5 although from what I gather you're not so-posed to fit one yourself

Pity, it's still running at half-cock.

Presume Mode is still ADSL2+?

Did you try the MTU experiment? People on AOL say it can make a considerable difference.

Money is on AOL figuring out that had you locked to a stupid LLU profile.

Now looks like a 12dB target profile, and you should run a lot faster on ADSL2+ possibly 15Meg. If they lower the target margin some more you may get closer to this value.

thanks, yes adsl2+, I have read about the MTU thing although I've also read you want to sort of somehow get them to lower the noise margin as much as possible 1st, I'll read up more DLM, I think from reading I have to keep the line up for a few days then strategically disconnect at night or something
anyway thanks again
Steve

No, go ahead and change MTU; 1450 is best I'm told. I never suggested to wait.

thanks, its on 1450 now, as yet no change, but I gather it can take some time.
thanks
Steve