ADSL2+ Speeds

I apologize if this is not posted in the right place. I moved to ADSL2+ nearly 4 weeks ago. Since then I had tried 3 routers and every socket (including the Test socket) in the house. My connection is now stable - apart from a daily disconnect initiated automatically by my router between 6 and 7 am - and has been for the past 8 days. Over the past month my router stats - irrespective of router - have remained in the range of LA16, SNR 13 to 14 downstream and LA7 and SNR 6 upstream. The stats are recorded hourly by my current router as are losses of synchronization, errors etc. My current IP profile is 7150/915 and the BT Speedtest is showing a connection of 8865 and 915 with speeds of between 7512 and 6653 - and 740. I have also paced the house with a radio set to 610 and found no major sources of interference. My question is a simple one. If my line remains stable over a period of time (? how long) will the BT monitoring system automatically apply a SNR reduction/profile increase or am I just stuck with what I have got? I live about 0.95Kms from my exchange. Thanks.

In reply to a post by lexden16:

a daily disconnect initiated automatically by my router between 6 and 7 am - and has been for the past 8 days

Why is your router disconnecting every day? This will be seen as instability by the BT profiling system used by IDNET and will damage your profile.

A daily internet disconnection is standard on Fritz!Box routers and AVM support has confirmed in an e-mail to me that (a) it cannot be turned off, (b) the user can select a time for the disconnect to occur (I have chosen 6 to 7am) and (c) there is no loss of ADSL synchronisation as a result. The system log shows that the router has remained ADSL enabled since installation and there is no loss of synchronisation shown in the DSL statistics. That said, the system log does record that there was a brief disconnection at 06.52 am this morning. I know no more but I have been told not to worry. Fritz!Boxes are used widely across Europe, and now in Australia, and I do not see any users complaining about this particular issue.

In reply to a post by lexden16:

A daily internet disconnection is standard on Fritz!Box routers and AVM support has confirmed in an e-mail to me that (a) it cannot be turned off, (b) the user can select a time for the disconnect to occur (I have chosen 6 to 7am) and (c) there is no loss of ADSL synchronisation as a result. The system log shows that the router has remained ADSL enabled since installation and there is no loss of synchronisation shown in the DSL statistics. That said, the system log does record that there was a brief disconnection at 06.52 am this morning. I know no more but I have been told not to worry. Fritz!Boxes are used widely across Europe, and now in Australia, and I do not see any users complaining about this particular issue.

So why is your SNR 13 to 14 downstream?

I wish I knew. It rose to that level with my first box (a Netgear DGN3300v2) as a result of frequent disconnections from the internet. As far as the router was concerned everything was OK: ie, the DSL light was illuminated and the router log was not showing any disconnections. When I rang Support all they could tell me was that the router had initiated a disconnection! The only way that I could get the internet back was to turn the router off and on. The loan router (a DGN1000) held a steadish connection but the LA and SNR were broadly as they are now. The Fritzbox has now been synchronised for over a week as my daily stats push e-mail shows:

Product name FRITZ!Box Fon WLAN 7390
Firmware version 84.04.88
WLAN active, WPA + WPA2
WLAN guest access inactive
Call diversion inactive
Anrufe sperren inactive
Night service active
Port forwarding inactive
Power consumption 31 %
Last restart 16.03.2011 13:05
DSL Information

Aktuelle Datenrate 8865 kbit/s (receive direction) 915 kbit/s (send direction)
Line attenuation 16 dB (receive direction) 6 dB (send direction)
St�rabstandsmarge 14 dB (receive direction) 7 dB (send direction)
DSL version 1.68.16.14
DSL status active since 07:02:46:21
DSL-Vermittlungsstelle Infineon 7.27.9

What I do not understand is why with the line stability that I have at the moment the BT system is not tweaking my SNR downwards? IDNet think that I may have a bad line - whatever that means.

In reply to a post by lexden16:

What I do not understand is why with the line stability that I have at the moment the BT system is not tweaking my SNR downwards? IDNet think that I may have a bad line - whatever that means.

Only IDNET know what that means. I heard they were the best ISP in the world

Oh come on stop spreading falsehoods.

A single disconnect each day will NOT cause damage to the profile as in raising target noise margin.

IDNet may be saying bad line, because the wholesale systems have it marked as such from the period of instability.

Ask them for a target noise margin reset, since you have now removed the flaky hardware.

In fairness to IDNet, they have been extremely helpful in terms of their free customer support. My question was based primarily on my lack of understanding about ADSL2+ SNR, LA and speeds. If the BT system is quick enough to lower the profile after what it sees as a lack of line stability (ie; frequent internet disconnects) then why does it not react in a reverse way? Some ISP forums suggest that line stability over time will result in an upwards re-profiling - but this can take days and even weeks. IDNet have offered to lower the SNR but they would like me to use the BT test socket which could not have been more inconveniently sited. I am reluctant to dismantle my present router set up which includes phones etc when the results of using the test socket a couple of weeks ago were less than conclusive.

I appreciate that some broadband users may wonder why am I bothering with consistent speeds such as these:

Today 09:39 6927 kbps (866kB/s) 768 kbps (96kB/s)
Friday 21:39 6927 kbps (866kB/s) 772 kbps (96.5kB/s)
Friday 07:09 7014 kbps (877kB/s) 773 kbps (96.6kB/s)
Thursday 18:47 7011 kbps (876kB/s) 770 kbps (96.3kB/s)
Thursday 18:06 7043 kbps (880kB/s) 767 kbps (95.9kB/s)
Thursday 10:31 6925 kbps (866kB/s) 771 kbps (96.4kB/s)
Wednesday 17:54 6931 kbps (866kB/s) 772 kbps (96.5kB/s)
Wednesday 10:18 6928 kbps (866kB/s) 772 kbps (96.5kB/s)
Tuesday 19:25 6930 kbps (866kB/s) 750 kbps (93.8kB/s)
Tuesday 07:12 6927 kbps (866kB/s) 771 kbps (96.4kB/s)
Mar 21, 20:10 6928 kbps (866kB/s) 772 kbps (96.5kB/s)
Mar 21, 20:02 6926 kbps (866kB/s) 772 kbps (96.5kB/s)
Mar 21, 19:34 6511 kbps (814kB/s) 755 kbps (94.4kB/s)
Mar 21, 19:00 6924 kbps (866kB/s) 769 kbps (96.1kB/s)
Mar 21, 18:55 6929 kbps (866kB/s) 773 kbps (96.6kB/s)

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Oh come on stop spreading falsehoods.

A single disconnect each day will NOT cause damage to the profile as in raising target noise margin.

I was looking for an answer to this question, not "spreading falsehoods"

So why is your SNR 13 to 14 downstream?

I been in contact with Support again this morning. They are reluctant to carry out a reset on my line in case it gets 'tagged' by BT. They believe that the DLM will pick up the fact that my line is now stable - quote Changes are normally made providing the line will support that change over 14 days unquote.

This was the thrust of my initial post as a number of ISP-run forums suggest that a downstream SNR of 15 is a BT 'fixed' setting which requires human intervention to change.

My particular router is now on release in Australia. Broadband customers are recording ADSL2+ download speeds in excess of 20Mbps with a router SNR of 3.

After a small fault on my line last week my snr moved from 6 to 9
yesterday it dropped back to 6 with only a small amount of line errors and no disconnections.
I think its all to do with line errors on how fast your snr will come back down

This will be seen as instability by the BT profiling system used by IDNET and will damage your profile.

Looks like a statement of fact by me, do you accept that this is not the case.

I am tired of your trolling, sometimes helpful, but like misinformed call centre staff you can do more harm than good at times.

resyncs and level of errors is taken into account.

This is why some likes appear stable at 9dB for example but are never lowered to 6dB, because the errors detected in the background point towards things not being perfect.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

This will be seen as instability by the BT profiling system used by IDNET and will damage your profile.

Looks like a statement of fact by me, do you accept that this is not the case.

I am tired of your trolling, sometimes helpful, but like misinformed call centre staff you can do more harm than good at times.

Do you know why the SNR is 13 to 14 then?

Probably set as a target noise margin of around 12dB.

Why it is set to that one cannot answer, but seen as I've talked to the people behind the BT DLM system, then a single resync per day is not taken as an unstable line.

There are cases where some modems have resync'd without logging it in their internal GUI and a myriad of other possibilities, but is guess work by and large as to what is happening.

from what i was told from BT
Its all to do with loss of connection to the exchange and how many errors your line shows
So say i did 5 reconnection's every day for a week with little line errors and my snr should not change.
But say you did the same but had lots of line errors, then the DLM would take that into account and action a raise in SNR
Please do kick me if i got what they said wrong

Edited by deleted (Mon 28-Mar-11 15:10:16)

As a general rule under old IPStream Max you needed 10 or more disconnects in an hour to trigger the DLM to raise target noise margin.

With WBC I don't think it is vastly more sensistive, since one or two disconnects a day is to be expected from consumer hardware, i.e. people switching off over night, power outages, and the occassional bit of noise.

The tracking of errors and decisions are generally talked about with respect as to whether the target noise margin can be lowered.

Well i can confirm from my own experience that Errors are also tracked for raising your snr aswell
I was told the threshold for this target snr to be raised due to line errors but forget what it was
My line had no disconnections for 2 weeks but loads of errors
After a manual reboot of the router my snr was raised
loads of things now determine how your snr is played with by the dlm

Can't beat a manual set system, as you can have a line that produces errors that have little or no impact on the throughput or other factors, in such cases that should not mean dlm cripples that connection by raising snr like it always has,

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

This will be seen as instability by the BT profiling system used by IDNET and will damage your profile.

Looks like a statement of fact by me, do you accept that this is not the case.

I am tired of your trolling, sometimes helpful, but like misinformed call centre staff you can do more harm than good at times.

Took me less than a couple of days as a new user thats never posted on this site before a few days ago to realise he/she offers nothing but trolling nonsense and cluelessness in general.

Im amazed at how patient staff are with them. Thats me as a new user, Billford as a Mod and you as staff MrSaffron who he/shes trolled all in a matter of days in various thread. (Im not even counting other threads where they have done the same to numerous other reg users in the past 72 hours).

Like house cleaning sometimes you just have to throw out old junk Staff here must have patience of saints. I have to say on one hand i admire your resilience to throw out the old junk but despair at the same time. Site offers some great reading, but im already put off a little from their random and pointless polluting of topics. 10 minutes enjoyment reading... Than BAM on cue they pop up polluting things.

Edited by deleted (Mon 28-Mar-11 19:28:19)

"LIKE" !

In reply to a post by alwall:

"LIKE" !

lol

In reply to a post by alwall:

"LIKE" !

Their flame baiting AGAIN in this thread which kicked it all off...
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/technical/t/3985430...

Examples of their frankly idiotic manner are all over the forum. Im only new to this site and already sick of them. Id be mighty shocked if long term members havent complained about them before. Boggles the mind why staff allow them here, i can only assume every place needs a character to point and laugh at. Place must be hard up for real comedians.

I am grateful to those posters who have provided sage advice. My line remains connected and stable with no changes in LA or SNR. If I dare ask for further advice, what is the acceptable line error rate that BT takes into account?

My system logs shows an Up/synchronised time of 10 days 15 hours with a cumulative error rate of:

Router: Error Secs(ES) 912, Serious Error Secs(SES) 3, Remedial Errors (FEC) 2 per min, last 15 mins: 0, CRC 0.06 per min: last 15 mins: 0

DSL Exchange: Error Secs(ES) 191, Serious Error Secs(SES) 60, Remedial Errors (FEC) 0 per min, last 15 mins: 0, CRC 0.14 per min: last 15 mins: 0

My sole aim is to try to get a better understanding of the vagaries of ADSL2+

Thanks.

In reply to a post by lexden16:

My sole aim is to try to get a better understanding of the vagaries of ADSL2+

I think you're really trying to understand the BT profiling system, I'm not sure why you think it's ADSL2+ that has vagaries?

The only thing I know about the BT profiling system is, avoid.

Edited by deleted (Wed 30-Mar-11 09:53:48)

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

The only thing I know about the BT profiling system is, avoid.

If only it was optional!
Perhaps you meant avoid if you can?

Your line looks good and should sort its self out in a few days
If nothing happens then call your isp to ask for it to be reduced

In reply to a post by iwish:

Your line looks good and should sort its self out in a few days
If nothing happens then call your isp to ask for it to be reduced

Thanks. I did request a reduction earlier this week and was told that it was not possible. IDNet could only initiate a reset (which I think means a re-start of the training period) which they were reluctant to do in case the line gets tagged by BT. I have taken another patience pill and I will continue to sit back and watch what happens over the next week or so.

Some ISP,s are so full of it
I have had my line reset 6 times and never been so called tagged
once my line became severe error free then snr came back down on its own in about a week

Could someone please explain to me what has happened here? My router log shows no change in LA or SNR (the latter sitting between 14 and 13) but there has been a disconnect as shown in the following log:

DSL is available (DSL synchronization exists with 8475/923 kbit/s).
31.03.11 09:12:04 DSL synchronization starting (training).
31.03.11 09:11:39 Internet connection cleared.
31.03.11 09:11:39 Internet connection cleared.
31.03.11 09:11:39 DSL not responding (no DSL synchronization).

A BT Speedtest shows that the IP profile remains at 7150 but the downstream connection speed has decreased from 8864 to 8475 but, conversely, the upstream connection speed has increased from 715 to 730. Is there any significance in the log entry 'DSL synchronization starting(training'?

1. Best Effort Test: -provides background information.

Download Speed
6913 Kbps

0 Kbps 7150 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

Download speedachieved during the test was - 6913 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speedsis 2000-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :8475 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 923 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 7150 Kbps
The throughput of Best Efforts (BE) classes achieved during the test is - 13.97:21.96:64.07 (SBE:NBE:PBE)
These figures represent the ratio while sententiously passing Sub BE, Normal BE and Priority BE marked traffic.

The results of this test will vary depending on the way your ISP has decided to use these traffic classes.

2. Upstream Test: -provides background information.

Upload Speed
730 Kbps

0 Kbps 923 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

>Upload speed achieved during the test was - 730 Kbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 923 Kbps

Thanks.

Nothing has happened. You have a good connection. Your upload/download speeds are appropriate for your sync rates.

In reply to a post by john2007:

Nothing has happened. You have a good connection. Your upload/download speeds are appropriate for your sync rates.

Thanks. What does it mean when it says 'DSL Training' in my router log as I am well out of the 10 day training period?

The DSL training means the ADSL modem is connecting to the exchange nothing to do with the BT 10 day training period, which doesn't train to the line to behave in certain way, the training systems work for the lifetime of the line.

All that is set in semi permanent stone by the end of the 10 days is the MSR figure used for judging connection speed faults. Even this figure can be relearnt.

A further question if I may. Last week, I was getting ADSL disconnects whenever the BT phone rang. I took advice from an Oz forum and I inserted an additional ADSL filter between my filtered faceplate and my router's DECT connection. This solved the disconnection problem and for 3 days my connection has been rock solid at 11955/1083 with an IP of 10000. That said, my CRC error rate at the DSL Exchange (which I assume to mean upstream) was in the order of 12 errors a minute. Overnight, the ADSL connection has re-synchronized at 11827/888 and there are no longer any upstream errors and only a few FECs downstream. There has also been a power reduction on the downstream side of my router which according to the router help section means

'If the communication between the modem and DSLAM is good, for instance because they are located very close to each other, the power can be cut back to reduce the minimum energy requirement and minimize interference in cables in the vicinity.'

My router/ exchange distance is c.0.98Kms and my current line stats are DS SNR/LA 14/15 and US SNR/LA 9/10.

I am sure all of this is positive re line stability. Is this just the DSLAM and the router doing what they are paid to do? If the communication between my router and the DSLAM is so good then why am I not connecting at the BT predicted speed for my line given that I have nothing connected to any of the internal telephone wiring etc?

I am not annoyed just interested to know what might be going on.