Poor Extension Wiring

Bear with me.

I live in a three bedroom semi with loft conversion (4 beds in total). All of my computer, XBox equipment is in the loft.

I have located the master socket (lounge, ground floor) and have taken the bell wire out. There are 4 extension sockets around the house, one of which is in the loft.

I had connected my router to the loft extension and was getting speeds of around 4 meg which was fine. However, recently, the connection speed dropped to 2 meg for no obvious reason. I therefore popped the router downstairs to the master socket and plugged it directly in. Stats were:

Connection Speed - 7136
Line Attenuation - 15.0
SNR - 5.9

Back in the loft they were:

Connection Speed - 2368
Line Attenutation - 34.0
SNR - 6.4

So, I assume that the extension wiring in the house is absolutely awful. I have removed the bell wire and the redundant wires from the extensions around the house but this made no real difference to the loft connection speed. I dont have enough filters for all of the extension sockets in the house but would this make a difference?

If I plug the router into the lounge socket permanently, the wireless signal in the loft is poor and drops a little. I think that my options are therefore:

1. Fiddle with the extension wiring some more - any suggestions?; or
2. Use a powerline solution for the loft and place the router in the lounge.

Any hints, tips or advice?

That seems to be a dramatic drop between using test socket and using normally.

You only need filters if phone kit is plugged in. i.e. no point placing a filter at an extension if nothing is plugged into it.

Any chance of links to photos of the wiring in the master and extension sockets?

Perhaps a faulty filter or split pairs?

I could get some pics of the wiring later - it's a mess.

The extensions around the house (aside from the loft) have two spurs in each socket although the loft (which was added later than the original extensions) only has one spur.

I'd start by looking for the cause of the excessive attenuation. Check that pins 2 and 5 are wired correctly on each socket. Is the attenuation on the test socket and with the faceplate plugged in identical?. If so, I suspect a break or disconnection on the extension wiring.


You only need filters where equipment is plugged in to a socket

In reply to a post by alwall:

I'd start by looking for the cause of the excessive attenuation. Check that pins 2 and 5 are wired correctly on each socket. Is the attenuation on the test socket and with the faceplate plugged in identical?. If so, I suspect a break or disconnection on the extension wiring.


You only need filters where equipment is plugged in to a socket

Good point. I didn't notice the attenuation difference.

Plugged directly into the master socket behind the faceplate the stats are:

7616
14
8.2

Pics of wiring to follow!

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/EDOlZdfxFld1Wq...

Wiring in the master socket. I'll get some pics of two of the extensions too.

You have a good line coming into the house (maximum stats for a standard ADSL interleaved line).

Try to get extension photos such that the wires connected to each terminal are clear. That allows much easier diagnosis by those that understand the wiring (not me!).

Interesting - 4 extensions and only one pair connected to the extension connection point on the master.

How are the extensions cabled up from the master? Are they daisy chained?

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/OaudNnNnG7sMLl...

One of the extensions.

The other extension in one of the bedrooms has three cables - I presume they have added the third laterly and run it up into the loft when the previous owners built the loft extension.

The other extensions are like the one picture and only have two cables.

Edit - Aside from the loft extension I should have said - that only has one cable.

Edited by deleted (Wed 18-May-11 12:04:54)

Ive done a little more digging and popped the router into all of the extensions in the house. The downstream stats are:

Hallway - 7392/15/5.9
Kids Bedroom - 7488/15/5.9
My Bedroom - 2528/34/6.5

So the loft and my bedroom sockets seem to give the poorest connection speed although I am sure that the loft cable comes from the Kids Bedroom socket.

Any ideas?

Something is going wrong in My Bedroom (2528 sync). Pictures of that socket.

If your bedroom and loft extensions were added at a later date it's possible they were done using an extension kit from one of the DIY sheds. Sometimes the cable supplied in these is not the best quality i.e. low grade copper and insufficient or no twists on the pairs. Another common problem with self installed extensions is that people use inappropriate tools like a screwdriver to push the cables into the connectors, which separate the jaws of the connection, resulting in a poor contact.

As a start I'd be inclined to remake all the extension connections at each of the sockets. Get a krone punchdown tool like this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/KRONE-Type-Punch-Telephone-I... Then carefully pull the cables from the punchdown connections, trim them back slightly then remake the connection, using the tool to push them into the connector firmly.

Be sure to take good photos or make good notes about which colour is attached where before starting

Here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/h8emk_QDgRDRzR...

My bedroom socket. I had thought it was two cables but it seems like it's only one. Having no idea how the sockets are wired together I'd take a stab at this arrangment:

Master -- Hallway (2 cables) -- Kids Bedroom (3 cables) -- My Bedroom (1 cable)

The loft must be connected to the kids bedroom socket I suppose - hence the three cables?

Thanks guys for all your help.

GeeTee - All of the sockets are original build (12 years old house) aside from the loft which was added 4 years ago.

I'm curious now as to whether the connections in the kids bedroom socket are not as tight as they might be.

At a guess the speed in your bedroom will be low too.

With a high degree of certainly, I will say that the problem lies in the kids bedroom - an IDC is only designed to take two wires not three. The extra wire will have spread the contacts too far and a wire is not in full contact.

Take all three out, and replace with the feed and one extension and see what happens.

If that solves it, you need some three way crimps, two extension and and flying lead, then connect the flying lead and feed to the IDC.

Okay. Thanks to everyone, problem is solved.

Having identified (with all your help) that something was amiss between the kids room and my own I pulled one of the cables out of the socket in the kids room out as it looked old and loose anyhow. To my surprise it had about 500mm of cable attached to it and then it came free so it wasn't attached to another socket!

I made the two remaining cables snug and was now wondering where the hell the loft socket was attached.

I had a glance in the loft cavities which run alongside my loft room and the cable dissapeared under the loft boarding. I figured that the cable must run along to the kids room so I started moving towards that area in the cavity. Jackpot.

It was so horrible that I cannot post a picture. In order to get a signal to the loft socket the cowboys who put the loft in spliced the cable from the kids room to my room and added the loft socket to that spliced cable by twisting the cables. At some stage they must have came loose.

I twisted them again and the sync in the loft is now 7616/15/8.2 so I am very happy.

Now I just need to figure out what to do with the spliced cable. It runs along the floor and it doesn't have enough give in it to tack it along the loft joists. THat means if the missus is moving boxes in the loft she runs the risk of pulling it loose again sometime.

Any suggestions? I have surpassed myself in getting this far as I am shocking with DIY. Extending a cable or the kit needed to do so is beyond me. I need to add about 4 or 5 metres to the cable length to get it along the roof and out of harm's way.

Use an IDC socket to make the joint ...

On top of the 3 in 1 termination, I see that all the IDC's would appear to have been poorly terminated. I'd splash out on a decent Kroning tool and reterminate them all.

For your next trick you can sort out the UK's economic problems.

In reply to a post by Salion:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/EDOlZdfxFld1Wq...

Wiring in the master socket. I'll get some pics of two of the extensions too.

That looks quite reasonable. There is just one little job you can do there, to tidy things up -- snip off the excess "overhang" of the b/w wire at IDC2. As you look at that picture, the excess wire to the left of IDC2 should be trimmed level to the connector. (Look at IDC5 for an example.)

In reply to a post by john2007:

<snip>

Try to get extension photos such that the wires connected to each terminal are clear. That allows much easier diagnosis by those that understand the wiring (not me!).

The b*cat likes to get his paws involved in a "good wiring" issue.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/OaudNnNnG7sMLl...

One of the extensions.

Again, that looks reasonable. Please just tidy-up by snipping off the "overhangs" at IDC2 & IDC5. When you refit the socket, ensure that the non-connected wires are tucked right to the back of the box and, thus, will not make any spurious contact with the socket.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/h8emk_QDgRDRzR...

My bedroom socket. I had thought it was two cables but it seems like it's only one. Having no idea how the sockets are wired together I'd take a stab at this arrangment:

Master -- Hallway (2 cables) -- Kids Bedroom (3 cables) -- My Bedroom (1 cable)

The loft must be connected to the kids bedroom socket I suppose - hence the three cables?

Once again, acceptable. I haven't seen anything, so far, that matches your original description of "a bit of a mess". All internal cabling, currently seen, has been made with 3-pair CW1308 spec cable -- good.

I would agree with your assessment of the internal wiring arrangement.

It was so horrible that I cannot post a picture. In order to get a signal to the loft socket the cowboys who put the loft in spliced the cable from the kids room to my room and added the loft socket to that spliced cable by twisting the cables. At some stage they must have came loose.

A picture of that botch would have been enjoyed . . .

Now I just need to figure out what to do with the spliced cable. It runs along the floor and it doesn't have enough give in it to tack it along the loft joists. THat means if the missus is moving boxes in the loft she runs the risk of pulling it loose again sometime.

Any suggestions? I have surpassed myself in getting this far as I am shocking with DIY. Extending a cable or the kit needed to do so is beyond me. I need to add about 4 or 5 metres to the cable length to get it along the roof and out of harm's way.

My advice would be to purchase two IDC junction boxes, a suitable length of CW1308 spec cable, a box of cable clips and, as Zarjaz has mentioned, a copy Krone type punch-down tool.

Example shopping list:

Two of http://www.clarity.it/xcart/product.php?productid=16...
One of http://www.clarity.it/xcart/product.php?productid=16...
One of http://www.amazon.co.uk/Telephone-Cable-Pair-Cw1308-...

I'm sure you will be able to realise the acceptable fix, once you have obtained all the necessary components.

Edited by burakkucat (Wed 18-May-11 19:35:41)

Alternative is Gel Crimps ...

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/2393988.html

If the OP can find a supplier that sells in 10's!

In reply to a post by MHC:

Alternative is Gel Crimps ...

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/2393988.html

If the OP can find a supplier that sells in 10's!

Good idea!

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

It was so horrible that I cannot post a picture. In order to get a signal to the loft socket the cowboys who put the loft in spliced the cable from the kids room to my room and added the loft socket to that spliced cable by twisting the cables. At some stage they must have came loose.

A picture of that botch would have been enjoyed . . .

Now I just need to figure out what to do with the spliced cable. It runs along the floor and it doesn't have enough give in it to tack it along the loft joists. THat means if the missus is moving boxes in the loft she runs the risk of pulling it loose again sometime.

Any suggestions? I have surpassed myself in getting this far as I am shocking with DIY. Extending a cable or the kit needed to do so is beyond me. I need to add about 4 or 5 metres to the cable length to get it along the roof and out of harm's way.

My advice would be to purchase two IDC junction boxes, a suitable length of CW1308 spec cable, a box of cable clips and, as Zarjaz has mentioned, a copy Krone type punch-down tool.

Example shopping list:

Two of http://www.clarity.it/xcart/product.php?productid=16...
One of http://www.clarity.it/xcart/product.php?productid=16...
One of http://www.amazon.co.uk/Telephone-Cable-Pair-Cw1308-...

I'm sure you will be able to realise the acceptable fix, once you have obtained all the necessary components.

Just think £16 for an IDC tool is a little expensive when the users only going to use it once...

I think this for 60p is ideal

http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/product_in...

Also if you don't need 100m, you can buy per metre on this site, just enter the quantity as how many metres you want

http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/product_in...

I like to keep costs down wherever possible as I'm a scrooge at times

Just think £16 for an IDC tool is a little expensive when the users only going to use it once...

I think this for 60p is ideal

http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/product_in...

Also if you don't need 100m, you can buy per metre on this site, just enter the quantity as how many metres you want

http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/product_in...

I like to keep costs down wherever possible as I'm a scrooge at times

Fair points. I did head the list "Example shopping list" and not "Best price shopping list".

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

In reply to a post by john2007:

<snip>

Try to get extension photos such that the wires connected to each terminal are clear. That allows much easier diagnosis by those that understand the wiring (not me!).

The b*cat likes to get his paws involved in a "good wiring" issue.

Whatever floats your boat!

In reply to a post by john2007:

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

In reply to a post by john2007:

<snip>

Try to get extension photos such that the wires connected to each terminal are clear. That allows much easier diagnosis by those that understand the wiring (not me!).

The b*cat likes to get his paws involved in a "good wiring" issue.

Whatever floats your boat!

Purrs.

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

Just think £16 for an IDC tool is a little expensive when the users only going to use it once...

I think this for 60p is ideal

http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/product_in...

Also if you don't need 100m, you can buy per metre on this site, just enter the quantity as how many metres you want

http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/product_in...

I like to keep costs down wherever possible as I'm a scrooge at times

Fair points. I did head the list "Example shopping list" and not "Best price shopping list".

Point taken

Cheers chaps.

I have bought a cheap tool for a couple of quid.

I have also bought a few three way gel crimps (£1.90 for 10 from ebay) and a 5m length of cable (£2.50) so I will see how that goes.

I really appreciate the time you all took to talk things through. When I get to sort the cables out next week I may post a picture of the botch job for giggles.

Thanks one and all.

Hi,
Bought gel crimps off eBay recently - only a couple of bob.
Cheers, Les.

As promised.

Pictures of the wiring.....

(urghhhhh!)

Pics

Rather you than me, with all that rockwool - nasty stuff. No problems with the crimps?
Cheers, Les.

Toujours la ka-ka !

In reply to a post by lelboy:

Rather you than me, with all that rockwool - nasty stuff. No problems with the crimps?
Cheers, Les.

That ain't rockwool, it's glass fibre.

As Captain Mainwaring might have said "I wondered how long it would take one of you to notice that". Does it really matter - or is it just the "I have to be right" syndrome rearing its head again? Sad.

If you want to peddle misinformation that's up to you. If I care to correct it, I will.

Are these pics before or after?

What's under the white insulating tape?

Ah Batboy... I don't contribute much here, but I read a lot and can see who are the "genuine" guys - Bob (RobertoS) & Mr Saffron are just two that come to mind. You, however, are a different kettle of fish: from what I can see, the best part of your contributions are provocative for no good reason, other than self-aggrandisement. Does it really matter that a humorous post made by me identified the wrong insulation?
Hardly misinformation because, by its definition, the attempt would be to misinform: in this case that wasn't so, as you well know. If you're sad enough to need to get your jollies by being critical of things that don't even warrant serious comment, then good luck to you.
As I said - sad.

Absolument!

I'll stick my arm into Rockwool - but fibreglass NO way.

Total ***** (insert your own choice of expletive).

Just wondering about your television picture too. When watching analogue transmissions do you occasionally get lines scrolling up and down the screen?

You're not wrong - I've done it often enough at Sheffield Insulation. I think I must have had a senile moment when I inadvertently called the insulation on display Rockwool instead of FibreGlass. I'm so pleased, however, that I was suitably put in my place by BatBoy - NOT!

In reply to a post by lelboy:

Ah Batboy... I don't contribute much here, but I read a lot and can see who are the "genuine" guys - Bob (RobertoS) & Mr Saffron are just two that come to mind. You, however, are a different kettle of fish: from what I can see, the best part of your contributions are provocative for no good reason, other than self-aggrandisement. Does it really matter that a humorous post made by me identified the wrong insulation?
Hardly misinformation because, by its definition, the attempt would be to misinform: in this case that wasn't so, as you well know. If you're sad enough to need to get your jollies by being critical of things that don't even warrant serious comment, then good luck to you.
As I said - sad.

Atleast it's not asbestos I've had this thread fav'd for a while. It's nice to see it all resolved.

I don't bother with an analogue signal as the arial was in the loft and I needed to move it for space - it could be cr@p for all I know!

The wires under the tape were twisted together. I replaced the twists with cheap gel crimps and got as good a speed upstairs as I do in the master socket.

Now I just need to tack the wire up to the roof beams half way through the loft to keep it out the way - the rest of the wires already go under the floorboards and I can't be bothered to lift the rest.

All happy now!

=)