Little interferences caused by doorbell

I've noticed that always when doorbell rings my router reports 1-2 errored seconds. I suspect it is caused by my installation.
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/9820/gcr7.jpg
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4217/xvqe.jpg

This round box on the first photo is related to the doorbel (perhaps POWER). Furthermore, phone and ring cable are crossed. I suspect ring cable is antenna of interferences from mains even if doorbell doesn't ring. For example I've noticed there is often errored seconds when I unplug my Logitech speakers from mains. These speakers are in the other room than router and phone cable.

I'm very curious how many errors I would have if doorbel was at the other place, however moving cables requires pricking up the wall. What else can I do?

Best regards
konrado5

A few questions http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/media/gcr7.jpg added notes to picture to avoid confusion.

Is that horizontal cable the phone line?

Yes, it is.

What is this wire, which seems to head off into the a connector block with doorbell

It is probably phone line.

What is this box?

This is phone cabinet.
Best regards
konrado5

Edited by konrado5 (Thu 06-Feb-14 19:19:32)

IIn addition to Andrew's questions on the marked-up gcr7.jpg, there appears to be a sunken,circular, electrical conduit box above and between the exposed, 3-way terminal block and Andrew's largest, middle arrow.

There may be a wire from the "far" side of the terminal block, disappearing in to that sunken box, that impression being reinforced by the split dark gap, just to the right of the terminal block.

Where is the bell push-switch; and are there any connections through the wall/s, behind and hidden by any of the boxes?

=================

My first impression is that it is probably all wiring associated with the "bell"; and you need to establish accurately what each part is.

NONE of it looks like proper phone wiring; and the boxes don't "ring a bell" as being typical phone compnents.

Thank you for reply. What is terminal block? Sorry, my English is poor.

The three-way, white connector strip, between the left-hand arrow, and the middle arrow, with three, brass blocks, each with two screws; and with two, multi-way wires entering on the near side.

One wire goes straight in from the bottom of the photo.

The other wire comes horizontally from the "What is this box" at the right, turning abruptly upwards diagonally to the white connector strip.

Edited by deleted (Thu 06-Feb-14 20:45:34)

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

There may be a wire from the "far" side of the terminal block, disappearing in to that sunken box, that impression being reinforced by the split dark gap, just to the right of the terminal block.

Is seems it is a case. The bell push-switch is far from the "far side" of the terminal block. What interferences can be caused by this installation? I have about 50-80 errored seconds on 12 hrs on fast path on SNR margin 3.3-4.0 dB. It seems it is good result but I'm curious how much errors are caused by mains. When the doorbell rings I see only 1 or 2 CRC errors, I don't see any siginificant unstability, SNR margin doesn't change.

Best regards
konrado5

Edited by konrado5 (Thu 06-Feb-14 20:58:58)

If that is the phone line going into a connector block like that then there is no reason for it to be doing so and you are more than crossing the bell your are running along side it in a very odd fashion.

In short probably best to modernise and remove that bell which is probably semi mechanical and can create a fair chunk of interference. Replace with some thing like one of the wireless or modern wired ringers that should have less RF side effects

You can see how to use a battery powered AM radio to spot RF interference

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

In short probably best to modernise and remove that bell which is probably semi mechanical and can create a fair chunk of interference. Replace with some thing like one of the wireless or modern wired ringers that should have less RF side effects

Thank you very much for reply. When doorbell rings I have only 1-2 errored seconds? What do you think about it? Is the doorbell cable antenna for other mains interferences? When I turn off light in the other room I have also 1 CRC error. This room is far away from phone cable.

You can see how to use a battery powered AM radio to spot RF interference

I've used it and doorbell is scarcely audible in the radio.

Best regards
konrado5

Edited by konrado5 (Thu 06-Feb-14 22:32:53)

It could be, we cannot answer with certainty until we know exactly what everything is, and maybe have done some RF analysis of what noise the various bits of kit are putting out.

If that was my house it looks odd enough to delve deeper, but if you do not know what you are doing, best to get someone in to avoid you doing something nasty e.g. there is no sign that the bell is mains powered but it could be

Thank you for reply. How is it possible that doorbel cause only 1-2 CRC errors, doesn't cause synchronization break, doesn't lower SNR margin? In the radio doorbell is scarcely audible.

there is no sign that the bell is mains powered but it could be

I don't understand. How could it be else than mains powered?

Best regards
konrado5

Edited by konrado5 (Thu 06-Feb-14 22:36:55)

Not uncommon for bells to have a few D cell batteries in the plastic case. As I said without knowing more and seeing an install (or someone having the same exact same model hard to tell. Also no obvious sign of a mains feed into the bell unless that is what the junction boxes are doing

Short amounts of noise can just create errors, and if the ADSL is not particularly busy the modem will tolerate these few errors. Also the onscreen display of SNR margin is not updating at 50 times a second more like once every five or ten seconds.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Not uncommon for bells to have a few D cell batteries in the plastic case. As I said without knowing more and seeing an install (or someone having the same exact same model hard to tell. Also no obvious sign of a mains feed into the bell unless that is what the junction boxes are doing

Thank you very much. Your knowledge is very helpful.

I think the doorbell is connected to mains. However, I'm curious if the mains causes any interference at the time when doorbell doesn't ring. If this installation causes only 1 CRC error when someone rings it isn't profitable to change it. I'm not sure if doorbell interfere by odd installation or rather by router power supply. At the logitech computer speakers I hear little crack when doorbell rings but speakers are connected far away from doorbell rings.

Furthermore, doorbell causes error only on download (never on upload).

Best regards
konrado5

Edited by konrado5 (Thu 06-Feb-14 23:09:32)

Back EMF is what used to provide the spark in a car engine. Even a low voltage source can provide quite a spark.

In reply to a post by konrado5:

How could it be else than mains powered?

I would have thought it unlikely that doorbells are main powered, at least in UK. I've been using the same (wired) battery operated doorbell (in diff houses) for over 40 years. More modern ones are wireless, but still battery operated.

Ah, I just found a battery/mains transformer operated on here: http://doorchimesuk.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?c... . So that entry wiring could be mains, the round box a transformer and the oblong box the bell chimes.
EDIT: But where is the bell-push circuit?

Out of interest, is your main photo with all that wiring and boxes of a floor or a wall?

Edited by XRaySpeX (Thu 06-Feb-14 23:29:13)

What if the bell-push is switching the mains?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

What if the bell-push is switching the mains?

It very probable. When the doorbell rings I hear crack in the computer speakers. Similarly, I hear crack when I turn light off.

Out of interest, is your main photo with all that wiring and boxes of a floor or a wall?

Wall

But where is the bell-push circuit?

It is on the far side of connect terminator.

Edited by konrado5 (Thu 06-Feb-14 23:37:53)

Remind me not to ring your doorbell when it's raining.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

What if the bell-push is switching the mains?

Can it do that? I'm not in a hurry to push that bell-push!

Seriously, that example says 'Illuminated bell push buttons with transformer power only.'

In reply to a post by konrado5:

But where is the bell-push circuit?

It is on the far side of connect terminator.

Of course!. That's what the connector block is for. It makes or breaks the 12v supply from the transformer.

In reply to a post by konrado5:

It is probably phone line.

I think there is no phone line at all in that photo. It is all mains cable or 12v bell wire.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by konrado5:

It is probably phone line.

I think there is no phone line at all in that photo. It is all mains cable or 12v bell wire.

Look at the second photo. It is the same phone cable from the botton of phone socket.
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4217/xvqe.jpg

Edited by konrado5 (Thu 06-Feb-14 23:59:22)

If it is the same cable why so intermittently linked (or so the pictures indicate) with the door bell.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If it is the same cable why so intermittently linked (or so the pictures indicate) with the door bell.

I don't understand.

So where's the connection between the 2 pix? It's just a jigsaw to me!

You need to put them into context.

There is no way a phone line can be connected with a bell circuit, and all of the main pix is just one circuit.

UNLESS you are stealing the phone provider's electricity to power your door bell

You need to be inside a Faraday Cage to visit Konrad!

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

So where's the connection between the 2 pix? It's just a jigsaw to me!

In the connect terminator and they cross at 90 degress.
EDIT: Phone cable is probably come in and come out from the round box. It is probably the samce cable.

Edited by konrado5 (Fri 07-Feb-14 00:53:35)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

You need to be inside a Faraday Cage to visit Konrad!

I went round once, to help decorate. Every time my mobile rang, the microwave started up.

Morning Konrado5

As the others have said, you MUST get that wiring in its entirety, EXAMINED by a COMPETENT ELECTRICIAN, as soon as possible.

eckiedoo

I have PM'd this message, with a Read Receipt Request, to Konrado5, as well as POSTing it in the Forum.

As the others have said, you MUST get that wiring in its entirety, EXAMINED by a COMPETENT ELECTRICIAN, as soon as possible.

Why?

IF as I and most of the others are now suspecting, your BELL CIRCUIT is using MAINS VOLTAGE directly on the Bell Push (the Bell Switch/Push by the door) , there is the distinct possibility of getting a MAINS VOLTAGE SHOCK in whatever Weather Conditions exist at the instant.

In reply to a post by konrado5:

EDIT: Phone cable is probably come in and come out from the round box. It is probably the same cable.

Don't believe that!

That pix shows only 1 circuit: Feed cable, prob mains, from L -> round box transformer -> connector block, where a loop on +ve pole, out-of-sight goes to bell-push thus
----------------------------------------------------------------O--Connector-O From Transformer
|
|
¬
Bell push
_
|
|
----------------------------------------------------------------O--Block--------O To Bell Chimes
while the -ve pole in connector block O-------O goes straight through
-> Bell Chimes in rectangular box.

EDIT: Note in my diagram above I have 6 O terminals and 3 O----O connections which corresponds exactly with your connector block which consists of 3 x conductor strips joining 2 terminals each.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Fri 07-Feb-14 02:33:07)

Morning XrayspeX

I agree that it looks very/most likely that it is all one circuit, possibly at Mains Voltage, I do question whether the circular box is "deep" enough to accommodate the typical Bell Transformer of the period, with 240 Volts in and generally <12 Volts out, usually with screw terminal arrangements and mounting screw holes.

Also the shorter "horizontal" wire from the Terminal Block to the Circular Box, appears to go "underneath" that Box, possibly entering it by the central (fifth) conduit hole in the base of that Box. There is no obvious shadow or such-like on the left-hand hole, unlike the longer horizontal wire.

The Circular Box appears typical of early plastic circular conduit boxes, with four holes around the periphery, and one "reinforced" one in the base - which would probably need a shallow hole in the wall (plaster).

That I recollect, the OP has not shown/described two aspects-

a) Does the longer horizontal wire in gcr7 run down behind the pipe at the left, to re-appear in xvqr as the pink-painted wire, rising up to that box?

b) The unpainted wire emerging from the top of that xvqr box and dropping vertically downwards - Where does that wire go to, termination etc.

If we are generally correct about the circuitry etc, the OP does not appear to have the knowledge to assess the probable hazards, hence my thinking that for the safety of all, the circuit requires on-the-spot examination by a competent electrician.

eckiedoo

The bell push will not be mains operated, If a bell is mains powered there will be a step down transformer. Typically they work on something like 9V dc

In short as others have suggested, you are clutching at straws and without dismantling which needs to be carried out by a person suitable qualified it will not be clear as to what the situation is.

The concern over the bell ring button having mains to it is real, and since no-one can be sure advise to get that checked out is valid and the best practice for an online forum.

If done properly yes that should be the case, but I think like most of us we have seen some horrible lashups over the years.

If that is an old fashioned door bell that rings a bell or buzzer, there's a coil inside that type of device which can produce rf interference (it sparks)

In reply to a post by deepinsight:

If that is an old fashioned door bell that rings a bell or buzzer, there's a coil inside that type of device which can produce rf interference (it sparks)

What is frequency? I've never seen error on upstream when doorbell rings, by contrast I always see error on download.

I've talked about this doorbell with my father. He said that there aren't any transformer, transformers were used on old door bells only. The doorbell is connected directly to 230V mains. The round box is only phone box. Moreover, the doorbell push is covered (rain doesn't matter).

Best regards
konrado5

Evening konrado5

Although nominally the mains voltage should be about 230 Volts, in practice in the UK for historic reasons - and looking at my Mains Monitor right now, it is about 248 Volts AC RMS.

The pain voltage induced in an electric shock would be about 1.414 times the RMS value, so about 350 Volts Peak.

This in itself could render someone unconscious - and could "kill" a Heart Defribillator.

Additionally, if you are hoping to get your Broadband Download problems cured, that Bell Circuit needs to be totally replaced.

Your father's statement that the Bell Circuit operates at Mains Voltage, confirms that it is DANGEROUS!

I have never seen a Circular/Round Phone Termination Box in Domestic Premises in my 60 years experience. (Has anyone else?)

HAVE YOU EVER HAD AN UNEXPECTED ELECTRIC SHOCK?

And YOU would be LEGALLY LIABLE for any INJURIES caused to a Visitor, Caller, Deliveryman, Postman etc!

==========================

Why does it affect the Download more than the Upload?

Typically on ADSL2, the Download is running at 10 Mbps.

The Upload at 1 Mbps.


So if the Interference lasts for 1/10 th of a second, you will lose 100 Kbits of Download information; and as the Download circuit is "being pushed to its limits", it is very difficult and "time-consuming" for a Recovery to be achieved.

If it were the Upload side, it would be about 10 Kbits; and as there is less traffic on the Upload side, it is easier fo Recover and Reset.

---------------------------

Think of a typical Motorway, there is the potential for the same amount of traffic on each of the two carriageways.

Think of the M4 Motorway going in to London at Rush Hour in the morning.

If there is a crash or obstruction on the Inward East Carriageway, queues build up; and it takes a long time to clear them. The after-effects can be observed for a long time, say 5 hours.

A similar crash or obstruction on the Outward West Carriageway would have much less effect, due to the lower traffic levels.

================================

From all the evidence YOU HAVE SUPPLIED, you will NOT MAKE ANY PROGRESS in sorting out your Broadband until you do so.


AND the effects will be WORSE if you get Higher Speed, FTTC/VDSL Broadband, as in the 1/10 th second Interference period, you will lose a lot more data.

Edited by deleted (Fri 07-Feb-14 18:41:31)

If it were the Upload side, it would be about 10 Kbits; and as there is less traffic on the Upload side, it is easier fo Recover and Reset.

I have fast path.

Doesn't matter what kind of "...Path" you have, the principle still applies in practice.

Again, YOU NEED TO HAVE THE BELL CIRCUIT CHECKED BY A COMPETENT PERSON; and almost certainly replaced.

Most of the other Posters on this thread, have centuries of experience collectively of Electricity, Electronics, Telephones, Telecommunications etc.

NOT ONE HAS SAID THAT YOUR BELL CIRCUIT IS SAFE.

The majority are worried and expressed concern that you almost certainly have a Dangerous Bell Circuit.

Why are you so unwilling to accept and follow the advice of people who clearly have greater knowledge than you?

====================

Otherwise, why did you post your problem on this Forum, if you are nit going to follow/use that advice?

The cost of removing that present Mains-Iperated Bell Circuit and replacing it with something much safer is very small, Wireless Door Bells cost around £10 to £50; and generally do not need "installing".

In reply to a post by konrado5:

I have fast path.

So what? It is mainly applied to the downstream.

In reply to a post by konrado5:

I've talked about this doorbell with my father. He said that there aren't any transformer, transformers were used on old door bells only. The doorbell is connected directly to 230V mains.

Then why is Friedland still selling them in 2014? If you look at the doorbell site I linked will you find any mains operated doorbell that is not transformed down to 9-12v? No, it's quite the opposite; direct mains were only used on old door bells, if at all.

Also, if it were mains, you have an uninsulated connector block on the wall with its live metal screw heads accessible to any kid with a screwdriver / needle .

My parents old house had a bell, if the phone rang so did the bell, also if the door bell was pressed the bell would ring. 2 different rings so you could tell if it was the door or the phone.

From what has been described so far, you seam to have a similar set up, but the wiring to activate the bell when the phone rings has been disconnected. To the point of not sounding the bell, although some wiring may still exist from the phone side. Causing the interference.

So now when you press the door bell you may be getting interferance down some of the remaining phone wiring. This could also explain the earthing issue when unplugging your speakers, as the suspected mains wired door/Phone bell could have a earthing problem.

I'd go with advising to get it checked by a professional.

I live in Poland. Probably in Poland doorbells are connected directly to mains. This doorbell is from many years and nobody had electrical shock.

Best regards
konrado5

Ok, so what do you want? You now know the reason for the interference and you now know what you must do to sort it. You even know why.

Is there anything else you need help with?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Ok, so what do you want? You now know the reason for the interference and you now know what you must do to sort it. You even know why.

I know only this is reason for the interference when doorbell rings. This is very small interference, it is only noticeable with router statistics, it doesn't affect negatively on transfer rate. I'm curious if this installation causes any interference when doorbell doesn't ring. If it is not, it is not profitable to do anything with this installation.

Best regards
konrado5

My phone cable doesn't come into terminator. It comes into the wall very nearly of the connector.
Cheers
konrado5

In reply to a post by konrado5:

I'm curious if this installation causes any interference when doorbell doesn't ring.

Only you knows the answer. Do you get interference when the doorbell doesn't ring?

Which country is this installation in ?

Poland. This doorbell is adapted to direct power from 230V.

OK, then you should follow the advice that others have already posted and get an competent electrician in to sort out the doorbell to remove the mains electricity from it.

At 240V this could potentially KILL someone.

Once that has been sorted out, then see if you still get the interference issue.

Check this out too for some background information on DOORBELLS

http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/repai...

Best you get a WIND-UP doorbell !!! ;->

http://www.dereve.co.uk/Dereve-Wind-Up-Door-Bells.htm

Just what is the round box? You have never really said! You have variously said:

In reply to a post by konrado5:

The round box is only phone box.

In reply to a post by konrado5:

This round box on the first photo is related to the doorbel (perhaps POWER).

In reply to a post by konrado5:

Phone cable is probably come in and come out from the round box.

Make up your mind! If you don't know, how do expect us to diagnose your problem?

If it a 'phone box', just what does it do? It's not a phone socket. Phone lines just don't stop dead without reaching a socket or some device or appliance. Please describe in much more detail just what it is and what it does?

According to my father it is phone cabinet. Phone cable come in and come out from this. I don't know if it is popular in Poland.

Edited by konrado5 (Sat 08-Feb-14 00:03:55)

So you are now saying it's a Block Terminal Connector like the UK ones half way down this page:
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btsockets.htm ? Does the phone cable on other side go to the outside of building?

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

So you are now saying it's a Block Terminal Connector like the UK ones half way down this page:
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btsockets.htm ? Does the phone cable on other side go to the outside of building?

I don't know if it is this type of Terminal Connector. The phone cable come in the round phone cabinet and come out of this left of the phone cabinet and come into the wall near the small rectangular connector. This rectangular connector is doorbell connector.

In reply to a post by konrado5:

The phone cable come in (from the R?) the round phone cabinet and come out of this left of the phone cabinet and come into the wall (to where?) near the small rectangular connector.

The phone cable comes in from the Right? From where? The outside of the building? Please make an effort to track it. We are not there we can't see it. We are relying on you to give us a full description.

The phone cable going into wall on L? Where does it go? Is it the cable coming from the L in your 2nd photo? Is that rectangular box your main & only phone socket?

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

]The phone cable comes in from the Right? From where? The outside of the building?

The phone cable probably come in to the round cabinet and immediately come out. My ISP made such installation.

The phone cable going into wall on L?

The phone cable goint into wall near the small connector to which doorbell cable comes in.

Where does it go? Is it the cable coming from the L in your 2nd photo? Is that rectangular box your main & only phone socket?

Yes it is this cable. Yes. That is only phone socket.

Best regards
konrado5

In reply to a post by konrado5:

The phone cable probably come in to the round cabinet and immediately come out.

Yes, from where? We know where goes to, but where does it come from? Make an effort! Look outside & relate them

For the last time!!!!!!!

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by konrado5:

The phone cable probably come in to the round cabinet and immediately come out.

Yes, from where? We know where goes to, but where does it come from?

That cable goes not further than to cabinet before it goes to wall near the connector.

Take the cover off the Round Box at the right of the photo, gcr7.

Then take another photo to show what is in that Round Box.

------------------------------

Also take another photo, showing everything on that wall.

================================

We are all trying hard to help you.



=================================================

Edited by deleted (Sat 08-Feb-14 07:54:15)

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

Take the cover off the Round Box at the right of the photo, gcr7.

I would rather to not do it. I wouldn't like to damage something.

Also take another photo, showing everything on that wall.

I don't understand. It shows all.

Could you reply in this thread?
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/technical/f/4303443...

Best regards
konrado5

No! You don't answer our questions fully .

Anyway it's unrelated!

Evening Konrad.

Your two photos do NOT show "all".

Photo gcr7
As you are unwilling to take the top of the "Round Box", you and we do NOT know what is inside it.

If the bare terminals and screws on the Terminal Block/Connector Strip are safe yet completely exposed and accessible (can be touched), then the interior of the Round Box must be equally safe; and you should be able to take the Round Box top off safely.

Photo xvqe
The long wire dropping downwards, the photo does not show where it goes.

Both photos
You have not said whether the wire/s disappearing behind the pipe at the left, is the same wire or two separate wires.

=======================

Stand further away from the wall so that your camera can take a single photo that includes ALL of the items, including that dropping wire and where it goes to.

=======================

If you are uncertain about taking the top of the Round Box off to show us what is in the Round Box, ask your father to take the top off, as he seems to have some more knowledge of the circuitry.

Simply taking that Round Box top off should not damage or interfere with anythng, unless the wiring has been very badly or wrongly done.

The four screws are there to make it EASY to INSPECT the wiring.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

Evening Konrad.

Your two photos do NOT show "all".

[qupte]If the bare terminals and screws on the Terminal Block/Connector Strip are safe yet completely exposed and accessible (can be touched), then the interior of the Round Box must be equally safe; and you should be able to take the Round Box top off safely.

I don't know if I have right to do it, it was made by my ISP.

Photo xvqe
The long wire dropping downwards, the photo does not show where it goes.

Because it doesn't matter. It goes to the right to my router to the other room (about 5 metres long).

You have not said whether the wire/s disappearing behind the pipe at the left, is the same wire or two separate wires.

It is surely the same wire.

If you are uncertain about taking the top of the Round Box off to show us what is in the Round Box, ask your father to take the top off, as he seems to have some more knowledge of the circuitry.

He doesn't want to do it, because it was made by ISP.


Best regards
konrado5

From what's been said by OP, the round box is a phone line Block Terminal Connector connected to the horizontal phone line going L under the 2 vertical pipes (all photo gr7) and then coming out other side of wall in adjacent room (photo xvqe) where it turns R, as you look at it, to a rather large phone socket at the top of which you can just make a RJxx type socket receiving the long phone cord to where the OP presumably has a dangler filter or splitter.

The only thing the OP refuses to tell us is what feeds the round box from its opposite, R, side. It can only the external drop wire from outside, but again OP refuses to look outside and try to match them up.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sat 08-Feb-14 22:08:47)

In reply to a post by konrado5:

Because it doesn't matter. It goes to the right to my router to the other room (about 5 metres long).

You have no actual telephone then?

How do you know what matters when you are asking us for advice?

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

If the bare terminals and screws on the Terminal Block/Connector Strip are safe yet completely exposed and accessible (can be touched),

The OP has repeatedly stated that bell circuit is 230V mains [gasp].

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by konrado5:

Because it doesn't matter. It goes to the right to my router to the other room (about 5 metres long).

You have no actual telephone then?

Yes, I don't have any phone.

How do you know what matters when you are asking us for advice?

Because I know this cable is not related to doorbell.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

From what's been said by OP, the round box is a phone line Block Terminal Connector connected to the horizontal phone line going L under the 2 vertical pipes (all photo gr7) and then coming out other side of wall in adjacent room (photo xvqe) where it turns R, as you look at it, to a rather large phone socket at the top of which you can just make a RJxx type socket receiving the long phone cord to where the OP presumably has a dangler filter or splitter.

Both photos are from the same room.

In reply to a post by konrado5:

Because I know this cable is not related to doorbell.

But it is the cable that is carrying the BB signal that results in the Error Seconds that you complain of in your OP:

In reply to a post by konrado5:

I've noticed that always when doorbell rings my router reports 1-2 errored seconds.

How can it not be related?

Then the topology doesn't make sense. In the 1st photo cable is going to L; in the 2nd it is coming from L. Unless 1 of the photos is upside down.

But it doesn't really matter as it's all one cable.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

But it is the cable that is carrying the BB signal that results in the Error Seconds that you complain of in your OP

But it is cable from phone socket to my router, this cable is far from ring cable. If my doorbell causes interferences, it is not by this cable.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Then the topology doesn't make sense. In the 1st photo cable is going to L; in the 2nd it is coming from L. Unless 1 of the photos is upside down.

But it doesn't really matter as it's all one cable.

I'm also surprised, but my ISP made such installation.

OK, A couple of questions for clarity:

1. How far apart are the (doorbell, round box, connector block) and the broadband/phoneline connection box?

2. Did your ISP install the broadband/phoneline box ONLY? And is that why it is not painted pink?

I agree fully with you that the topology does not make sense.


And with Konrad's latest revelations suggesting that the Mains MAY be connected directly on to the PSTN wiring ...

( I would like to see Openreach's reactions to any of us proposing or actually doing similar!)

Konrad in a recent posting has said that the two photos are taken in the same room, apparently confirming the close proximity of all of the illustrated wiring and apparently the same pipe appearing in both; but has not been able to supply the requested third photo attempting to show all, whether that be at a"normal", solid 90 degrees to the wall or from further away at an oblique angle.

=====================

As his knowledge of "technical" English seems limited, I did try doing a Google Polish Translation followed by a translation back in to English, to try to ensure the accuracy of sense.

The actual Translations were successful; BUT on doing a COPY/PASTE of the Polish in to TBB Post box, the accented Polish characters came over as their "Extended ASCII" Codes, ie the numerical representation of them.

The COPY/PASTE was direct from Google Translator to TBB, so I must try going via WORD or similar.

So maybe...

The round box is the phone internal junction box ( like this Bell example http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/... ). This is linked to an external phone junction box through a hole in the wall behind the round box, which is also used by the doorbell wire which appears to go under the round box after originating from the white 3 line junction box by the sunken round pink painted 'cover'.

If so, the 'mains' voltage flows right under the phone's internal junction box and possibly alongside the phone cable from that to the external phone junction box when the bell is rung, by an unsuspecting potential mains voltage induced death candidate.

The RF emmited by the doorbell's coil will be across all frequencies and the higher 'densisty' of data on the download link will be more affected by this.

Other devices will also be affected by the doorbell's coil action and given the state of this section of the OP's home wiring it is no surprise that other effects are manifested in the house.

Thanks, Deepinsight.

That starts to make a lot more sense.

To enlarge upon it.

The Mains Supply could originate under the the Pink Round Cover and connect directly to the 3-way Terminal Block - on a 2 wire, Live and Neutral only basis.

That (probably-) live feed is then taken through the shorter, upper, horizontal cable, under the White Round Box, to the Bell Push outside, returning through another wire in the same cable, to the 3-way Terminal Block.

Where that Switched Return Wire and probably the Unswitched Neutral are taken downwards through the vertical, pink-painted cable to Andrew's "Presume Doorbell", the "Mains" cabling terminating there.

Leaving the other longer, horizontal, over-painted cable as the PSTN/phone cable, coming through the same "hole-in-wall" to traverse through the white, round box; and out horizontally to disappear behind the pipe/s, to reappear to connect to and enter the other white "rectangular" box in the second photo.

Exactly what that second-photo box is, is not absolutely clear, either a rather large junction box or could it be a modem, given that Konrad has said that the other cable from its top, connects to the "Router"; and looks as though it may have an RJ series connector, as Xrayspex suggested.



Generally a satisfactory explanation for the internal wiring; but it does leave the question of -

"What are the arrangements out by the Bell Push, as its own (Mains) wiring by definition returns in to the house (I hope), whilst the PSTN/Phone wiring has to proceed onwards, to reach the PCP equivalent and the Exchange, somehow?"

I wonder if Konrad could clarify that aspect, by producing a photo?



Agreed about the RF source and emissions; and being effectively "White Noise" spread across a wide spectrum-

Back EMF = -L * dI / dT

where-
L is the Inductance in Henries
dI is the change of Current in Amps
dT is the change of Time in Seconds.

dI could be in the one or 2 Amp area,
dT could be extremely small, micro- and milli-seconds,

so that this intermediate Resultant could be very large,

whilst L for the Bell Coil/s could again be a fair size

Final result - plenty of sparks and interference!

I remember the shocks induced when playing about with PO Relays, using about a 12 Volt supply.

Edited by deleted (Sun 09-Feb-14 14:49:10)

I generally agree with your proposed layout except we don't really know where the doorbell supply and the phone line originate from; we are just guessing. Also:

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

could it be a modem, given that Konrad has said that the other cable from its top, connects to the 'Router'

No doubt the OP, like most of us, refer to his Modem/Router as a 'Router'. I'm sure that 2nd oblong box is just OP's phone socket.

Our problem is that the OP, having asked for our help, can see all this wiring but we can't. Yet he won't answer our Qs fully so that we may understand what is obvious to him but not to us.

Agreed - he seems to think we have magic wands (and XrayEyeS).

However, I feel satisfied that collectively, we have a reasonable idea of what the circuitry is.

Yo, trouble is to remove the doorbell from the equation will require a competent electrician - something which the OP seems unwilling to undertake.

The thought that the small white plastic 3line JB may be live is truly shocking.

All in all a potential accident just waiting to happen - glad were not in Poland....

And does not appreciate the legal implications if anyone is injured and beyond!

I'm sorry. At the moment I can't take photo.

How far apart are the (doorbell, round box, connector block) and the broadband/phoneline connection box?

It is very little distance. Phoneline connection box is along the same pipe, down the (doorbell, round box, connector box).

Did your ISP install the broadband/phoneline box ONLY? And is that why it is not painted pink?

As far as I know my ISP installed all, also round box. They installed all nearly the doorbell.

which is also used by the doorbell wire which appears to go under the round box after originating from the white 3 line junction box by the sunken round pink painted 'cover'.

Yes. According to my father, doorbell is connected to pink round box. Pink round box is electric box. To that there are connected all electric cables (not only doorbell). Phone line is near of the mains.
Best regards
konrado5

Edited by konrado5 (Sat 22-Feb-14 23:01:13)

Exactly what that second-photo box is, is not absolutely clear, either a rather large junction box or could it be a modem, given that Konrad has said that the other cable from its top, connects to the "Router"; and looks as though it may have an RJ series connector, as Xrayspex suggested.

Yes, on the second photo there is phone box having RJ. To that there is modem connected.

Never get a telecoms company fit mains wiring and never get an electrician to wire a phone circuit!

In reply to a post by konrado5:

Pink round box is electric box.

Where's the household mains fuse box/ consumer unit? Is that it?

In reference to www.esc.org.uk/public/home-electrics/fuseboxes-explained/:

Your Fusebox � the fusebox also known as consumer unit should be easy to find. You should make sure you know where it is in case you ever need to turn the electricity off in an emergency.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by konrado5:

Pink round box is electric box.

Where's the household mains fuse box/ consumer unit? Is that it?

In reference to www.esc.org.uk/public/home-electrics/fuseboxes-explained/:

Your Fusebox � the fusebox also known as consumer unit should be easy to find. You should make sure you know where it is in case you ever need to turn the electricity off in an emergency.

No. It is not Fusebox. Fusebox is two walls far away.

Morning Konrad

You really do need to have a competent person sort this mess out.

Naprawd&#281; trzeba mie&#263; kompetentn&#261; osob&#281; Sortuj ten ba&#322;agan.

In reply to a post by konrado5:

Pink round box is electric box.

So, what is this box? What's in the box? What's its purpose? Why is it in the wall?

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by konrado5:

Pink round box is electric box.

So, what is this box? What's in the box? What's its purpose? Why is it in the wall?

To this box electric wire from light switch and other sockets is connected. There is one box to one light switch or electric socket.

Edited by konrado5 (Sun 23-Feb-14 21:02:06)

You're not very communicative, are you? I thought you wanted our help & despite my nick I can't see inside your home.

How many such boxes are there in the whole place? Don't you keep separate circuits for lighting and power circuits (called a ring main here) there? Is the bell on a lighting circuit?

It really does sound a mess, but you are not helping by not explaining .

I really think this thread needs closing; it's going round in circles (or circuits ).

I've took additional photo
http://s22.postimg.org/x5e8efd7l/100_0351.jpg

Edited by konrado5 (Mon 11-Aug-14 20:05:41)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

How many such boxes are there in the whole place? Don't you keep separate circuits for lighting and power circuits (called a ring main here) there? Is the bell on a lighting circuit?

There is some in every room - approximately one electrical box for one lightning swith and one electrical box for one socket.

http://postimg.org/image/sie3ukj59/
http://postimg.org/image/3jpzlefrh/
http://postimg.org/image/cfysr3l3n/
White round box on the first photo is phone box. I took the top of round box and took photo (second photo).
The horizontal cable is phone cable. It seems it goes into the round box and and goes out from the round box at the same side. It is surprising. Two horizontal cables on the first and second photo are the same cable. Pink round box is electric box. There are some this type round box in every room. Phone cable goes into white connection strip along with vertical doorbell cable. Third photo is took in the same room. This is down of first photo. The horizontal cable from the first photo is the same cable as the cable from the bottom of the phone socket on the third photo.

What do you think about this installation? What is white round box?

Best regards
konrado5

Nothing seems to have changed since your first post 6 months ago. Even the pink.

I's the change. I've took off the cover of round box and took photo.