Problem with SNR and ISP unable to rectify yet!

I have been having problems with my ADSL2+ internet since early December 2019. Contacted my ISP CS who reset the SNR, but the issue persisted. The ISP did some tests and then arranged for an engineer visit. The ISP put the ticket on hold until they received the report from OR. Had a visit from OR engineer on 7th January 2020, who verified there was an issue with the equipment at the exchange, I do not have any extensions, the Master socket is 5c Mk4. Since then the ticket has been putt off hold but no further updates from the ISP.
The SNR is still very erratic, and Latency, download and upload speeds vary quite a lot from my previous download speed in particular from what I had from a steady 16+Mbps to anything from 6Mbps with frequent dropouts.
Can a knowledgeable tech here have a look at my router stats before the engineer visit and after and throw some light as to what might be causing the issues.

Before engineer visit Monday 6/1/2020
Uptime: 4 days, 1:13:00
DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 379 / 13.038
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 486,52 / 291,55
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 10,1 / 0,0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,8 / 19,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 18,3 / 10,9
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 6.642 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1.034 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 53.049 / 200
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 5 / 5.400.622
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 136.262
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 6.851.858

After engineer visit 11/1/2020
Uptime: 0 days, 9:45:25
DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 427 / 12.025
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [GB/MB]: 1,99 / 556,33
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 10,1 / 0,0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,8 / 19,5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 16,0 / 14,1
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 9.646 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1.510 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 65.781 / 236
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 179.636
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 2.741
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 121.508

Extensive Word document showing Graphs and other details can be seen here.

Edited by deleted (Sat 11-Jan-20 18:18:13)

Lots downstream errors .... a variable sync rate, has anyone considered REIN ?

If it was an issue with exchange equipment, I�d have expected the bulk of the errors to be upstream.

My ISP has not updated me what may be causing the issue and has not mentioned REIN.

If REIN is the cause of the degradation of achievable speed or even total loss of synchronisation with the exchange it must be caused by equipment outside my home as I have not added or moved any new electrical equipment in my home.

Still waiting for my ISP to update me which they said on Wednesday 8th January 2020 that it would be soon.

Edited by deleted (Sat 11-Jan-20 20:24:01)

It doesn�t have to be new or moved, existing electrical equipment can go faulty all on its own.

But , yes it might be outside too.

Had a 2nd OR engineer visit who confirmed there are no problems with the line.
The SNR has now stabilised at between 6.6 and 6.8 dB down and 16.1dB up with a Line Attenuation: 6,7dB Up / 19,0dB down
My latest router stats;

Uptime: 1 day, 8:18:55 DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 888 / 14.328
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]: 978,11 / 1,99
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 10,9 / 0,0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,7 / 19,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 16,1 / 6,6
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 9.689 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1.515 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 65.861 / 236
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 3.877
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0 generateTasks()


I am still baffled as to why my download speed has decreased from between 15+Mbps to 16+Mbps since 2013 (as can be seen on my signature below) to now varying between 11+Mbps to as low as 4+Mbps in the last five weeks.
Latest speed stats Date & time Ping Up Down Up
17.1.2020 @0:10 27 11.13 0.54

BT Wholesale checker state that my
ADSL Product WBC ADSL2+

Downstream Rate Mbps Upstream Rate Mbps Downstream Range Mbps
Up to 19 Up to 1.5 18.5 to 19.5

My question is should my download speed be more in the region of 15+Mbps to 16+Mbps?
And if not, being cynical here, and I know people have said that ISPs do not restrict consumers download speeds but could my lower speeds in the last five or so weeks be subject to some king of throttling?

Edited by deleted (Fri 17-Jan-20 01:13:04)

In reply to a post by scopio:

Had a 2nd OR engineer visit who confirmed there are no problems with the line.
The SNR has now stabilised at between 6.6 and 6.8 dB down and 16.1dB up with a Line Attenuation: 6,7dB Up / 19,0dB down
My latest router stats;

Uptime: 1 day, 8:18:55 DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 888 / 14.328
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]: 978,11 / 1,99
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 10,9 / 0,0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,7 / 19,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 16,1 / 6,6
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 9.689 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1.515 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 65.861 / 236
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 3.877
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0 generateTasks()


I am still baffled as to why my download speed has decreased from between 15+Mbps to 16+Mbps since 2013 (as can be seen on my signature below) to now varying between 11+Mbps to as low as 4+Mbps in the last five weeks.
Latest speed stats Date & time Ping Up Down Up
17.1.2020 @0:10 27 11.13 0.54

BT Wholesale checker state that my
ADSL Product WBC ADSL2+

Downstream Rate Mbps Upstream Rate Mbps Downstream Range Mbps
Up to 19 Up to 1.5 18.5 to 19.5

My question is should my download speed be more in the region of 15+Mbps to 16+Mbps?
And if not, being cynical here, and I know people have said that ISPs do not restrict consumers download speeds but could my lower speeds in the last five or so weeks be subject to some king of throttling?

Look at the error count, which now looks quite reasonable. I�ll cross my fingers that the noise source has gone permanently. If it has, you have saved yourself a good deal of hassle.

Do you know what your downstream SNR was when you used to record higher speeds ? It might be that a long period of stability will see minor remote tweaks and your old speeds return.

On the other hand, you might have a little more crosstalk on your line than previously, a new circuit near your pair in a cable making conditions for a DSL signal a little less comfortable.

Time will tell.

Today�s PlusNet CS answer reset Summary
- Reset SNR to 6Db and speed is now 17.5Mb
From my records when I used to record higher speeds the SNR varied quite significantly between 2.7dB down 5.7dB up and 6db down and 18db up at this time my download speed was between 17.22Mbps and 15+Mbps with some errors.

2nd August 2014 @13.00 Router Stats
Uptime: 14 days, 7:35:20
DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1.259 / 20.711
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [GB/GB]: 1,99 / 1,99
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12,8 / 0,0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 10,8 / 19,5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 5,7 / 2,7
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 9 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 2.951 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 88 / 5.884
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 86 / 45.036 generateTasks()

Router Stats Saturday 22 Nov 2014
Uptime: 42 days, 7:19:05
DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1.235 / 20.707
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]: 236,73 / 1,99
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12,4 / 0,0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 10,6 / 19,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 5,7 / 2,8
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): - Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 8.277 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 320 / 10.800
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 674 / 68.606 generateTasks()

Stats on 30/11/14
Uptime: 0 days, 4:06:30
DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1.219 / 20.527
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 2,73 / 24,64
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11,9 / 0,0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 10,5 / 19,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,4 / 3,0
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 20 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 20
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 122 generateTasks()

Before December 2019 the SNR has always been in the 6 to 6+dB down and speeds of 15+ to 16+Mbps.

Today�s stats
Uptime: 0 days, 2:01:17
DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 888 / 17.304
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [GB/MB]: 1,04 / 627,72
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 10,9 / 0,0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,7 / 19,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 16,0 / 5,9
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 9.697 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1.516 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 65.871 / 236
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 171
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0 generateTasks()

With today's download speed 17.1.2020 @16:56
Ping 32 Down 14.72Mbps Up0.67
So, as you point out my old speeds may return.

if it were my line, I would try a new modem/router.

Thanks for your suggestion. It has crossed my mind to get a new router but as the line now seems to have recovered and the download speed has recovered a little bit although not fully to previous 16+Mbps but to 14+Mbps I'll leave things as they are and revise it when my contract ends this year.

The speed seem to have got better and there are at the moment no CRC or HEC errors but should I be concerned about the high Error Seconds?

Speed up to 14+Mbps and 0.44+Mbps

Uptime: 1 day, 9:50:48
DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 888 / 17.304
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [GB/MB]: 1,59 / 501,13
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 10,9 / 0,0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,7 / 19,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 15,8 / 5,9
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote):
BDCM / IFTN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 9.697 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1.516 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 65.871 / 236
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 3.774
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0 generateTasks()

The ES counts haven't changed in the last 2 sets of stats you have posted so they are historical accumulated values so no problem there. The line looks to be performing well now, my only comment is that your upload speed is 888Kbps which is the maximum you can get when interleaved. PlusNet should be able to switch you to Fast Path to give you a bit more upload speed, around 1Mbps.

Thanks for your input.
I am not worried about the upload speed as I do not upload large files my only concerns are for the download speed and the performance of the line and the errors.

In reply to a post by scopio:

...It has crossed my mind to get a new router but as the line now seems to have recovered and the download speed has recovered a little bit although not fully to previous 16+Mbps but to 14+Mbps I'll leave things as they are and revise it when my contract ends this year.

If you can get hold of a Billion BiPAC 7800N router that might work better on your line if the issue turns out to be intermittent (?) I had/have a similar issue to yours on an ADSL2+ connection and the Billion will even hold sync with a bunch of serious error seconds on the downstream.

Problems seem to have started after FTTC was enabled locally (something which I don't want) and may be due to crosstalk interference, "cowboys" working on the cabinet, etc. Of course this may not be entirely relevant to your situation.

Good luck.

Thanks for your reply.

I will monitor the connection and any increase in errors for a few weeks and then if things have not improved I will get a new router.

The Billion BiPAC 7800N is now unavailable I wonder if the Billion 8800NL R2 Wireless VDSL/ADSL2+ is just as good?

Edited by deleted (Sun 19-Jan-20 20:29:46)

In reply to a post by scopio:

The Billion BiPAC 7800N is now unavailable I wonder if the Billion 8800NL R2 Wireless VDSL/ADSL2+ is just as good?

I got my 7800N off ebay new/unused - sorry, I don't have any experience with the 8800NL R2.

One advantage with the 7800N is that you can easily sync using ADSL2 rather than ADSL2+ and that will keep you going uninterrupted if the line is a bit ropy. That's until an OR engineer can eventually diagnose and fix a problem.

Edit: there is a new 7800N currently on ebay - be quick I might be tempted to buy it with my ebay £10 off voucher!

Edited by 4M2 (Sun 19-Jan-20 20:34:45)

Using the 8800NL (possibly v1 - not sure) here.

ADSL2+ with good options to change SNR manually if required. I tend to set mine to 3db for a little extra oomph.

Thank you.
That is encouraging as it is available and as long as configuring it for use with PlusNet ADSL2+ is easy as I am not all that savvy with routers I am willing to give it a go.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

ADSL2+ with good options to change SNR manually if required. I tend to set mine to 3db for a little extra oomph.

You've got a good line - I've got 45 year old copper pairs around here, hence reluctance to go to FTTC.

Hmm. Good-ish.

http://www.camieabz.co.uk/broadband (scroll down to line stats)

I'm approximately 2.2km from exchange, and approx 600-700 meters from cab. Best ever connection was 16000 sync and 14000 profile, and 13.5Meg speeds, but that was prior to ADSL2+ really penetrating the market. More typical speeds have fluctuated between 9.5 meg and 12 Meg, depending on what I believe are takeup levels of FTTC on the exchange. Pings tend to be 20-25ms, and fast path is always demanded. Estimates for FTTC are:

Products                   DL(Mbps)      UL(Mbps)     Hbck Thresh(Mbps) 
                          High	Low	High  Low				
VDSL Range A (Clean) 	  64.1	44.0	15.8  10.0         38.7
VDSL Range B (Impacted)   61.4	38.7	15.5  8.9          31.7
FTTPoD                        330           30

I just keep putting off changing product, as 11.5 Meg isn't too bad for my needs most of the time, and I have other things on my current contract to consider. The occasional large game update is a bit of a PITA though. I guess my real world FTTC speeds would be 55 Meg-ish / 12 Meg-ish. No G-Fast option for me, even if the exchange had it available, and FTTPoD would be a bit expensive, as I'm the furthest house from the cab in the street.

I'd happily settle for 20/5 if there was such a product available from current ISP.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

...FTTPoD would be a bit expensive...

Wish I had that option and be able to cut out the modem nonsense that one needs for a few hundred yards of copper pair with FTTC. Although as you say price would be critical.

Edit: you may be interested in my current stats with Uno TTB partial LLU

Max: Upstream rate = 1226 Kbps, Downstream rate = 14268 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 1022 Kbps, Downstream rate = 12575 Kbps

Link Power State: L0
Mode: ADSL2+
TPS-TC: ATM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.2 9.4
Attn(dB): 37.0 22.3
Pwr(dBm): 19.7 12.3

Took a while to download a 1.3GB Linux .iso the other day, but I can live with it.

Edited by 4M2 (Mon 20-Jan-20 18:46:13)

After five weeks of erratic SNR I am monitoring it every day!
ADSL2+
Had a look at my stats again today and the SNR has dropped to 3.1dB and sync at 18691kbps and download speed of 15.90Mbps down and 0.60Mbps up which is near enough what I had before the SNR started behaving erratically.

Uptime: 0 days, 7:46:51
DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 888 / 18.691
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [GB/GB]: 1,99 / 1,99
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11,1 / 0,0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,6 / 19,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 17,0 / 3,1
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / IFTN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 9.706 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1.517 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 65.888 / 236
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 146.085
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 16
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 170 generateTasks()

Looks good - only one additional Loss of Signal which probably happened when it resync'ed to a downstream SN Margin of 3dB. Additional Local Loss of Framing and Local Error Seconds counts may also have happened during the resync?

Edited by 4M2 (Tue 21-Jan-20 17:05:58)

Yes I'm happy that the download speeds have returned to what they were before the SNR started deteriorating at the beginning of December constantly changing to anywhere from 6dB to 17dB and frequent dropouts, and speeds of between 9.89Mbps and 11.46Mbps down and 0.19Mbps and 0.3Mbps up.

Now after two engineer visits speeds have improved to what they were before December.

I had bought a Billion 8800NL R2 in preparation in case it was the supplied PlusNet Technicolour TN582N router that was the cause of the SNR problem but all seems good so I will keep the Billion and try that at a later date.

Edited by deleted (Tue 21-Jan-20 17:17:12)

In reply to a post by scopio:

I had bought a Billion 8800NL R2 in preparation in case it was the supplied PlusNet Technicolour TN582N router that was the cause of the SNR problem but all seems good so I will keep the Billion and try that at a later date.

Always good to have a spare high quality router