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Standard User cancunia
(newbie) Sat 05-Dec-20 08:45:26
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ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[link to this post]
 
Hope you don't mind, I've posted the same query on Kitz..

I've just been given a £300k 'quote' by BT under the Universal Service Obligation for upgrading my long line 3Mbps ADSL to FTTP. I don't need or want FTTP, I simply want something better that 3M, even 5 would be better.
I'm wondering if there are any technologies out there that can be used to increase the bandwith without a Full Fibre connection?
There's an All In One cabinet about 2 miles from my house that serves a group of houses near to the cabinet, my long line ADSL goes through the cabinet according to BT, so I'm wondering if an ADSL DSLAM could be installed in that cabinet or some kind of ADSL Loop Extender could be used in the the cabinet or at the exchange.
Are BT still putting miniature fibre cabinets on top of poles ?
Any thoughts welcome?

Edited by cancunia (Sat 05-Dec-20 08:46:49)

Standard User dect
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 05-Dec-20 09:16:14
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: cancunia] [link to this post]
 
BT Openreach did do a proof of concept for a service called 'Long Reach' VDSL which during its trial did improve speeds for some but it wasn't seen as the way forward as I believe all ADSL would have needed removing from cabinets using the LR-VDSL technology which I believe made ISP's with kit in the BT exchanges very unhappy.

Here's a link to the Withdrawing of LR-VDSL

To be honest I think ADSL line cards are technically possible but I don't recall seeing any news to say it will ever happen although someone else may know something different.

Edited by dect (Sat 05-Dec-20 09:33:53)

Standard User witchunt
(experienced) Sat 05-Dec-20 09:42:25
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
Openreach looked at Adsl from DSLAMs but dont think it went further than a proof of concept due to the issues of Crosstalk to both VDSL circuits and existing exchange based ADSL, requiring high level of power restriction which meant little widespread benefit. There was also the issue of cabinet capacity, plus the need to support a small scale product across a geographically large business.
They stopped installing pole mounted DSLAMs several years ago. Probably in part because of the support and maintenance issues.

Edited by witchunt (Sat 05-Dec-20 09:56:35)


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Standard User dect
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 05-Dec-20 09:54:42
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: witchunt] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by witchunt:
OPENREACH looked at Adsl from DSLAMs but dont think it went further than a proof of concept due to the issues of Crosstalk to both VDSL circuits and existing exchange based ADSL, requiring high level of power restriction which meant little widespread benefit. There was also the issue of cabinet capacity, plus the need to support a small scale product across a geographically large business.
They stopped installing pole mounted DSLAMs several years ago. Probably in part because of the support and maintenance issues.
Knowing your posts well I know you must have put OPENREACH in shouty speak for a reason smile
Standard User witchunt
(experienced) Sat 05-Dec-20 09:58:09
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
I was being lazy. It came up in the shortcut on my phone as I started typing
Standard User cancunia
(newbie) Sat 05-Dec-20 10:07:46
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: witchunt] [link to this post]
 
Many thanks for the swift replies.
Looks like my USO dreams are over!
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Sat 05-Dec-20 10:48:50
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: cancunia] [link to this post]
 
cancunia

Your USO hopes may be over but you may be able to get more than 3Mb, have you considered trying mobile BB. Many USO cases are likely to be solved by mobile BB. You may not get the full 10mb which is why you have been quoted £300k .

It does require some investigation but not a lot of spend.

If you have a 4g or 5g smart phone obtain PAYG sims with £5 or £10 on. from the major operators and try them out side to find the best signal, then do a speed test on here looking for the best one.

Many people have discovered that they can get more than they expected, post the results and others can then give you guidance on the steps required to get a basic outdoor aerial ( unless your indoor signal is good) .

Some people have been lucky and got much more than 10Mb even in rural areas.

.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 05-Dec-20 11:10:02
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
In theory if BT thought the EE 4G signal would deliver 10 Mbps or better they'd have used that, so no real point spending money on any EE network SIM. Though would be a good expose of the USO problems if you were to get a USO capable connection over 4G and BT had not known it was possible.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User cancunia
(newbie) Sat 05-Dec-20 11:12:54
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
I think the mobile signal to my house is served by the masts at Cadwell Park, unfortunately it's over the brow of a hill which makes the reception very poor indoors and only just about usable outside. I'm thinking that an external antenna would make 4G reception much better, maybe to the point of getting data speeds better than I get from ADSL. The problem will be that on race days, throughput will be compromised.
I have complained to my MP about the £300k BT quote, maybe BT will get a bit more imaginative about a solution. I've read elsewhere that it's not BT Openreach who are responsible for USO quotes, but big BT, so maybe that's why they came up with the numbers so quickly.
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Sat 05-Dec-20 11:58:46
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: cancunia] [link to this post]
 
cancunia

If you can get an external antenna high enough it is like ly to improve it. Race days against other days is your balance. It is possible to keep the ADSL for those days and suffer the lower speed.

As Andrew says BT are meant to consider mobile BUT will only have looked at EE other networks may do better.

The £300k quote may well be accurate for FTTP, especially if you are a single house. A mobile repeater on a higher point may suit you better but powering it is the (expense) difficulty and BT are unlikely to have looked at it.. Also not worth the cost for a low speed service.

Lincolnshire Wolds are going to be full of cases like this as houses are often in the dips some way from anywhere.
Standard User Fastman3
(member) Sat 05-Dec-20 12:19:08
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: cancunia] [link to this post]
 
only USO technologies approved are 4G and FTTP
Standard User cancunia
(newbie) Sat 05-Dec-20 13:00:23
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: Fastman3] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Fastman3:
only USO technologies approved are 4G and FTTP


Well, that would explain the FTTP quote. Seems daft that FTTP is the only solution offered when the objective is a 'decent' 10Mbps.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 05-Dec-20 13:08:02
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: cancunia] [link to this post]
 
Other operators are free to quote you for alternate technologies outside the USO of course.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User cancunia
(newbie) Sat 05-Dec-20 13:09:05
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: Fastman3] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Fastman3:
only USO technologies approved are 4G and FTTP


Update: Seems that HM Gov have changed their minds about this, maybe BT don't know..

What technology will be used?
Any technology capable of delivering the minimum technical USO standards could be considered to deliver connections, including mobile broadband. In practice, most connections under the USO are likely to use full-fibre or fibre-to-the-cabinet technology.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefi...
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 05-Dec-20 13:10:57
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: cancunia] [link to this post]
 
On USO quotes you are talking with BT Consumer who then decide whether 4G is possible, if so they use that, if not they pursue a fibre on demand quote from Openreach. The fibre on demand side is a process that others such as Ceberus, Spectrum Internet and others can use.

The desktop quote you had may be wrong, and the way to fix that with the other FoD providers is to gamble on the £250 paid survey which sees someone come out and double check everything.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 05-Dec-20 13:15:38
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: cancunia] [link to this post]
 
The word approved by the other poster is perhaps over stating it, but reality is BT Consumer only use 4G or FTTP at this time (there was going to be some FTTC but the shift in focus to FTTP in Openreach has changed that)

Rolling out ADSL extender or infill VDSL2 cabinets that would need replacing in a few years is not worthwhile and costs are still going to be more than you want to pay if it is just you that benefits.

Presume you have also ruled out alternate fixed wireless providers?

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User cancunia
(newbie) Sat 05-Dec-20 13:15:58
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
On USO quotes you are talking with BT Consumer who then decide whether 4G is possible, if so they use that, if not they pursue a fibre on demand quote from Openreach. The fibre on demand side is a process that others such as Ceberus, Spectrum Internet and others can use.

The desktop quote you had may be wrong, and the way to fix that with the other FoD providers is to gamble on the £250 paid survey which sees someone come out and double check everything.


I'm not paying £250 for something that IMHO BT should be doing anyway. The USO process starts with an estimate & then a quote which can take up to 60 days which is the usual OpenReach lead time for new circuits. In my case it took them less than 2 days, so I agree that it was a desktop quote. I might be a bit more satisfied if BT were compelled to release details of the work scope.
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Sat 05-Dec-20 13:50:09
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: cancunia] [link to this post]
 
Have you tried SIM cards with every major provider? You can get pay as you go and test the data speeds. Keep to main carriers as others have slower speeds due to deprioritisation. 3, EE, O2 and Vodafone pay as you go sims and run a Speedtest. That will give you an idea, there has been a lot of changes recently over the last year or two on networks, things are often changing. Try and test is the only method forward.
Standard User cancunia
(newbie) Sat 05-Dec-20 14:14:36
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
I'm now at the point where it's become clear that BT's offerings for the USO are FTTP & 4G via EE.
In 2018 LR-VDSL which was for a while seen as the answer to cabinet based improvements to long copper lines was withdrawn after the PoC leaving the 2 options above.
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/04/openre...
It's not really worth getting into why LR-VDSL did not fly, it's simply not available any more, at least not for now. Maybe an alternative will appear at some point.

I'm going to see what happens when my MP's office reply to my complaint and will report back if anything useful happens.
In the mean time, many thanks to those that have replied to my post.
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Sat 05-Dec-20 14:56:59
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: cancunia] [link to this post]
 
Have you checked your signal for all the major networks on their websites?

Band 20 whilst not great got launched on EE and will probably give you better speeds, average is around 5 to 20. Band 20 is low frequency and gets through problematic things much better eg my office on level 10 had nothing and now I have 2 or 3 bars on band 20. If one does seem a little promising, you can give a pay and go sim a whirl as a starter.

https://coverage.ee.co.uk/coverage/ee

http://www.three.co.uk/Discover/Network/Coverage

https://www.vodafone.co.uk/network/status-checker

https://www.o2.co.uk/coveragechecker
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 05-Dec-20 16:19:00
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: cancunia] [link to this post]
 
But the long range VDSL would not provide reasonable speeds .... you may only want 10 meg, but for the average household these days, plus the increased requirement for bandwidth from many applications... more speed is required.

Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Sat 05-Dec-20 17:09:26
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
Exactly what I had suggested, BT will already have discounted EE but one of the others may be better.

However it appears he is in a dip in the Wolds and mobile signal is poor, if he posted a postcode it would give us a clearer idea but would also likely identify the exact premises. Some of the houses have over 1 mile of cable serving a single premises.

For the area the £500k FTTP quote is likely to be accurate. Most houses are isolated and on the spring line so poor mobile is usual.
Standard User Fastman3
(member) Sun 06-Dec-20 09:49:53
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
mcsaffron my understanding it is not a Fibre on demand - it a native FTTP service once the costs a paiud it is native FTTP - that not the same as cereus
Standard User Fastman3
(member) Sun 06-Dec-20 09:55:25
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: cancunia] [link to this post]
 
mu question is how many arer in your location and how many did you ask to be included om your costgin - if there are say 200 in your community and you only asked for yourself - you asked the wrong question and anything which is signifcantly more than once or could cover a whol community you are best to look at Openreach community fibre partnership

if they coudl desktop that in 2 days that suggest they already knew what the cost of that would be and what areas would be challenging in the USO space (looks like you premises or your area had already been looked at (possibly by another resident already)
Standard User dect
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 06-Dec-20 10:02:46
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: cancunia] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by cancunia:
I'm not paying £250 for something that IMHO BT should be doing anyway.
I think it comes down to how desperate you are to find a solution, as others have said a Community Fibre Partnership may be something to investigate for you and your community or try to group together with your community for a group USO but personally I would pay the money for a FoD survey if everything else was a dead end.

Edit: If you're that far out in the sticks and no other affordable options are available then you may need to wait until low earth orbit (LEO) satellite solutions go live which will give you reasonable speed.

Edited by dect (Sun 06-Dec-20 10:13:12)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 06-Dec-20 10:10:45
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: Fastman3] [link to this post]
 
FoD has changed over the years and you are not tied to a 330 Mbps service like in the past, i.e. a choice of speeds is possible.

Anyway the costs of building via FoD or native FTTP are the same.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User cancunia
(newbie) Sun 06-Dec-20 10:18:00
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
Thanks again for all the replies & suggestions.
TBPH, my Internet connection is stable & usable at 2.5Mbps on average so it's not a desperate situation. I started the thread thinking that BT had some technology to increase my line speed by putting some additional hardware into the cabinet and that USO may cover the cost of that hardware. I have worked with BT OR on a number of occasions in the past and seen that the solutions offered are often the easiest for them but not the most cost effective for the customer. I won't go into details as it's commercially sensitive.
It seems that BT have adopted the same or a similar approach to USO, with only the FTTP or 4G offerings.
For me an upgrade to 5M would be great & 10M fantastic but I have no intention of spending money on a survey for FTTP as I know it will cost more than I'm prepared to pay. 4G data won't work where I am, the signal on any network (I've tried them all) is too poor, what's more it will degrade when there's a race meeting at Cadwell Park. There are 2 houses where I live, so a community fibre is not an option either.
Quite frankly, I'm amazed at the lack of options between long line copper ADSL & FTTP!
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 06-Dec-20 11:18:07
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: cancunia] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by cancunia:
Quite frankly, I'm amazed at the lack of options between long line copper ADSL & FTTP!

Perhaps keep an eye on Starlink's pricing once it is available in the UK:
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/...

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User GonePostal
(committed) Sun 06-Dec-20 11:25:05
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: cancunia] [link to this post]
 
Are there any fixed wireless or other alternative service providers who can reach you?

For example Quickline is being funded by Lincolnshire County Council and claims that it should be able to service Cadwell Park so you might be in luck.

Edited by GonePostal (Sun 06-Dec-20 11:25:52)

Standard User camieabz
(sensei) Sun 06-Dec-20 12:48:44
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: cancunia] [link to this post]
 
I've been reading this thread with some interest.

I had a quick search through the thread, and didn't spot a mention of it, so will throw up a Hail Mary. Is line bonding an option? If so, it could give you 5 Meg or more. Failing that, I'd look to satellite BB, if an option. I guess there are good reasons other haven't suggested these, but you never know. smile
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Sun 06-Dec-20 15:26:06
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: GonePostal] [link to this post]
 
GonePostal

If the mobile signal from Cadwell Park is out of reach, so the fixed line would also be out of reach so a new aerial would be needed and cost for two houses would be quite a bit so may not be cost effective. The Wolds are full of isolated houses scattered over a lumpy terrain.
Standard User GonePostal
(committed) Sun 06-Dec-20 17:11:38
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kitcat:
GonePostal

If the mobile signal from Cadwell Park is out of reach, so the fixed line would also be out of reach so a new aerial would be needed and cost for two houses would be quite a bit so may not be cost effective. The Wolds are full of isolated houses scattered over a lumpy terrain.


My understanding of that sort of technology is that it is often not wired or a mobile signal per se, rather wide-scale WiFi using a totally separate distribution system. There is an availability checker on the Quickline website so you haven't a lot to lose by plugging in your postcode.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 06-Dec-20 19:36:26
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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?


[re: camieabz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by camieabz:
I've been reading this thread with some interest.

I had a quick search through the thread, and didn't spot a mention of it, so will throw up a Hail Mary. Is line bonding an option? If so, it could give you 5 Meg or more. Failing that, I'd look to satellite BB, if an option. I guess there are good reasons other haven't suggested these, but you never know. smile

Before I read the OP’s reply, and judging by other replies, I’m going to guess it’s a no from them.

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