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Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Tue 26-Jan-21 11:40:51
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Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[link to this post]
 
I want to try and squeeze a bit more speed - especially up - from my FTTC. Currently I'm on a 40/10 deal and the router says:

Attainable: 40058 - 13156 (down - up)
Current is : 38447 - 9997

INP is 40 - G INP is ON & OFF - SNR 8 & 8 - Attenuation 20 & 27 - Length is ~ 550m

If I attach my FrirzBox direct to the Openreach 'test' socket I get a small improvement (that disconnects an unused extension).

The attainable increases to 41828 although the up speed sees a slight drop to 13025.
The actual speeds were 39998 down and 9997 up. So the maximum available by my package.
IMP was 38, SNR 7 & 8, all other figures the same.

A very small download speed increase of 1000 isn't going to be noticed, but a one third increase in upload and I might be willing to pay the extra fiver.

So what more can I do to increase this increase?

Two things to take into account.

According to the OR address checker my neighbours have better predicted speeds than I do. Those are further from the cabinet than I am so that shouldn't be correct. (Yes, I'm 99% sure I know the duct run and direction.)

My prediction shows (for clean line) 60 - 41.6 down and 13.7 - 8.5 up. So my actual speeds are at the low end of down and the high of up!

Next door is closer to the cabinet by around 12 metres worth of cable. The predictions are 69.8 - 49 down and 18 - 11.9 up. Fair enough, they're closer, how about the other next door who are another 10 meters away? The exact same predictions. So why do I - in between - have lower predictions? The next two houses have a lower prediction but its faster than mine at 64.8 - 44.9 and 15.6 - 10.

Normal times I'd bang on their doors and ask their speeds...

The other thing is my internal cabling. I asked the OR installer nicely and he jointed the incoming pair to an Ethernet cable running about 10 or 12 metres to a more suitable location for the Master socket (and my router). So I could shorten my line length and any interference issues by having the Master socket relocated to where the line comes into the house, where it was designed to go. Then I'm thinking of having a modem and connect that back to the router (now in router only mode) at its current location using the Ethernet.

But at the end of the day the signal sill has to travel the same distance to my router. Will I be gaining / losing anything or does the fact that I have the modem as close to the cabinet and Ethernet internally going to help speed me up?

Thanks!
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 26-Jan-21 13:22:10
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
Upgrade to an 80/20 service.

Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 26-Jan-21 13:27:16
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
Distance is obviously only part of the story, cable type, joints, etc can all impact speed. It is quite possible that your line has an extra joint or 2 causing it to be slower than your neighbours. It is possible that any number of things could be impacting your line.

Also possible you have some noise in your own house impacting the line - maybe the TV is causing noise or something similar.

Openreach are not going to investigate this as your line is within their expected parameters. If they investigated every line that was slower than a neighbour then that would be all they would have time to do and could result in massive lengths of cabling being replaced.

Also, the attainable is I think normally what your line would get at 0dB SNR - so bearing in mind that no line syncs at that you would never hit the attainable. You may only actually get a small amount of that up attainable available to you - you might even find that the line could rebalance and move slightly more to the downstream impacting the upstream - that could mean you would get a small boost in both that would be negligible.

EDIT : On the question of length to the router. Shortening the line could well improve things - it is the length to the router that counts, what you do with ethernet after the router would not make any impact on your connection (well, using PowerLine might but we aren't talking about that). So, shortening it to where the master socket was originally MAY improve things - it also may make no noticeable difference whatsoever.

Edited by ian72 (Tue 26-Jan-21 13:29:46)


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Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 26-Jan-21 13:49:13
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Also, the attainable is I think normally what your line would get at 0dB SNR -

I don’t think that’s correct Ian. As someone who looks at attainable rates pretty often, I‘d think it was an approximation based on a 6db margin.

The OP says they’d like more upload ... the guestimate says 13up, which would be an improvement on the 9999 they have now ...

Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 26-Jan-21 14:13:00
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
I am not certain but have seen other posts where people can't reach the "attainable" rate. I wouldn't want to see the OP assuming that was the speed it would go when there seem to have been examples posted where people don't get to the attainable rate.

The OP needs to decide whether an extra £5 per month is worth it for what could be a relatively small increase.
Standard User j0hn83
(knowledge is power) Tue 26-Jan-21 14:22:51
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
The attainable rate is accurate on lines running fastpath and with G.INP.

It is inaccurate with Interleaving enabled.**

The max attainable uses the current target SNRM set by the DLM.
If the target margin drops the attainable increases, and vice versa.
There's no 0dB involved the the calculation.

**Some newer Lantiq chipsets have an accurate attainable even with Interleaving enabled.

Edited by j0hn83 (Tue 26-Jan-21 14:23:31)

Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Tue 26-Jan-21 14:30:41
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
As someone who looks at attainable rates pretty often, I‘d think it was an approximation based on a 6db margin.

So what do you think that is for the high or low prediction? I dropped my SNR from 8 to 7 by using the test socket but only gained 1000 Mbps. But the upload SNR stayed the same. (Someone can explain why that is?)

The OP says they’d like more upload ... the guestimate says 13up, which would be an improvement on the 9999 they have now ...


Yes, and in answer to your other post, yes getting an 80/20 connection will do that. My router says the line is capable of 13 odd up. The biggest question is whether going to the trouble and expense of having the Master socket moved, buying a new modem and recabling will add a further worthwhile speed increase.

When you say you look at "attainable rates" often, do you mean what the router reports rather than the OR address checker suggests?

I see if I do a check using my phone number I get the same figures. The only difference being observed speeds: 32.29 down, 12.85 up but that was on 31.03.2020. I was last tested for bridge tap (U), VRI (N) and NCEFaceplate (N) on 14.01.2021.

Just to add further to my confusion over how OR are calculating predicted speeds, the last house in my row has the fastest predictions of all at 69.8 - 49 down, 18 - 11.9 up. Which makes no sense to me.
Standard User j0hn83
(knowledge is power) Tue 26-Jan-21 14:36:41
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
If you went for the higher package you should achieve around 50Mb downstream sync with a 3dB SNRM target.

That could be part of the reason why your neighbours have a higher estimates than you.
My estimates climbed above my neighbours when i dropped to a 3dB target.

Then I'm thinking of having a modem and connect that back to the router (now in router only mode) at its current location using the Ethernet.

But at the end of the day the signal sill has to travel the same distance to my router. Will I be gaining / losing anything or does the fact that I have the modem as close to the cabinet and Ethernet internally going to help speed me up?


The signal doesn't travel the same distance to your router.
The xDSL signal ends at the modem. xDSL drops over a long distance.

The link between the modem and router is Ethernet and you'll get a line run indoors before that drops below a 100Mb link speed.

If it's a short distance between this joint and the modem it may make little difference.
The shorter the line carrying the xDSL link the better though.

I'm also not a fan of having 500m+ of CW1308 twisted pair then a random length of cat5 in the home, all part of the xdsl link.
I recommend CW1308 all the way to the modem! Cat5e from the modem to the router.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 26-Jan-21 14:49:01
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
What are the impacted figures?

From what you have said, there is very little you can achieve inside the property so the reason for slow speeds are likely to be external and could be down to gauge of the incoming wires, large amounts of noise ...

Did the installer use a pair in the Cat5e (Ethernet) cable? Does not matter which, just that it is a pair. And the extra few metres - small when compared to 550, but if the socket was moved and the router still right next to it, you might see a small 200-500k increase, stressing might.

Disconnect the unused extension, and plug into the face plate. the small differences in Upstream between 13025 and 13126 will change regularly and it could be that a noise source changed between checks. With that you might see a sync between 12.5 and 13.2. If you believe the upload increase is worthwhile, go for it, you will see a small increase in downstream too, and if everything stays stable, possibly the downstream SNR might drop to 5, 4, 3 dB with an increase in speed.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Tue 26-Jan-21 14:50:18
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by j0hn83:
If you went for the higher package you should achieve around 50Mb downstream sync with a 3dB SNRM target.

I could live with that and worth the trouble. But what's my current SNRM? I know my SNR (8dB) but that's not the same, is it? If my SNRM is above 3dB now, how do I get it down?


The signal doesn't travel the same distance to your router.
The xDSL signal ends at the modem. xDSL drops over a long distance.

The link between the modem and router is Ethernet and you'll get a line run indoors before that drops below a 100Mb link speed.

I think I know this really. They're different signals, the xDSL will degrade but once I've translated it to Ethernet I can move it through the house with less loss.

I'm also not a fan of having 500m+ of CW1308 twisted pair then a random length of cat5 in the home, all part of the xdsl link.
I recommend CW1308 all the way to the modem! Cat5e from the modem to the router.

I'm afraid builders were involved...
Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Tue 26-Jan-21 15:03:47
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
What are the impacted figures?


The full works:
VDSL Range A (Clean) 60 - 41.6 --- 13.7 - 8.5 handback 35
VDSL Range B (Impacted) 58.7 - 37.7 --- 13.5 - 7.9 32

And to remind, current connection is (down - up)

Attainable throughput kbit/s 40058 13156
Current throughput kbit/s 38477 9997

From what you have said, there is very little you can achieve inside the property

I can move the Master socket thus removing maybe 12 metres of xDSL run over Ethernet.

Did the installer use a pair in the Cat5e (Ethernet) cable?

Yes, the twisted almost matching blue pair! Also, and is this of relevance, he then used another pair in the same Ethernet cable to run an extension back from the Master where there's a normal phone point. (Never used, no phone connected but working.)


Disconnect the unused extension, and plug into the face plate. the small differences in Upstream between 13025 and 13126 will change regularly
Yes, I had it like that for a few weeks but I didn't make regular checks. SNR only went from 8 to 7 though.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 26-Jan-21 15:13:18
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
There is certainly something outside your control impacting the service and which could be a lot of crosstalk/noise. I would normally expect 550m to be over 50Mbps and potentially nearer 60.

Moving the master - as I said, you may get a small increment potentially under 1M, maybe just 100-200k. It is worth paying for that to be done? Probably not. Although, if that is the point of entry then you have ruled out anything on your side and you will just have to live with it as BT will not investigate the line.

Backwiring a voice pair should NOT cause an issue - one of the reasons why Cat5e &c have differing twist rates on each pair.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Tue 26-Jan-21 15:26:32
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
There is certainly something outside your control impacting the service and which could be a lot of crosstalk/noise. I would normally expect 550m to be over 50Mbps and potentially nearer 60.


According to CodeLook there are just under 1000 lines in my cabinet. I had to wait for an FTTC connection. I'd guess there are around 200 houses using the lines coming from the cabinet to my street. Plenty of demand. You'd think they'd bring FTTP all the way up the road...
Standard User JHo1
(member) Tue 26-Jan-21 15:58:04
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
When I switched to a Fritzbox 7530 my upstream speed immediately dropped to 1.0 Mbps from 1.2. I started getting line drops and my downstream was impacted too. After much faffing on I gave up on the Fritzbox and it's now front ended by my HG612. Zarjaz reckons that a BT HH handles a FTTC line even better than the HG612. Maybe a change of router could squeeze out that little extra.I'll leave the experts to make recommendations.

John
Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Tue 26-Jan-21 16:04:09
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: JHo1] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by JHo1:
When I switched to a Fritzbox 7530 my upstream speed immediately dropped to 1.0 Mbps from 1.2.


But I like the FritzBox!I got as far as looking at DrayTek modems (because I've used DrayTek in the past and I didn't know where to start). Then I remembered I have a spare 7530 which I could use in modem only mode (I assume) thus saving me a £80 to £100. So, you know, thanks. wink I'll go look at whatever an HG612 is...


STOP PRESS: I have some sort of old Openreach modem in the pile of stuff what might come in useful one day. It'll be years old though.

Edited by Woolwich (Tue 26-Jan-21 16:07:11)

Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 26-Jan-21 16:09:08
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
Which ISP are you with?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Tue 26-Jan-21 16:09:51
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
Which ISP are you with?


Zen.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 26-Jan-21 16:14:48
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
Rules out my idea ... I have a couple of spare BT hubs - I would have sent one to you as they need a good home!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User JHo1
(member) Tue 26-Jan-21 16:23:51
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
I know what you mean, the interface is friendlier than some, though the router does have its downsides. Page 65 in the manual tells you how to set it up, "Configuring Internet Access via cable modem".

John
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Tue 26-Jan-21 19:50:03
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
Woolwich

As nobody has has answered the part about your neighbours estimates. They are just that, estimates. A Openreach algorithm works them out, I think for each DP. Once you have service they are replaced by a better estimate based on what is actually achieved. Sometimes one persons service can change the estimates for the whole DP but not necessarily.

Just because they are further from the Cab in a direct line doesn't mean they are further by cable. This is easier to see when served overhead. You may be closer to the cab but further from the pole ( DP) and therefore further from the cab by cable. Your DP is underground and may be past you so adding more distance than you expect and less than your neighbours.
Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Wed 27-Jan-21 12:33:23
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
There is certainly something outside your control impacting the service and which could be a lot of crosstalk/noise. I would normally expect 550m to be over 50Mbps and potentially nearer 60.


I've been looking at the Ethernet cable run and I'm sure its all away from the electric etc, done properly. But... the Master socket is now under the stair alongside the electric consumer unit. Its within 10 cms. Right above where the main power tails enter and where the main trip switch is located. And its also next to a double socket powering the router and a bunch of other stuff.

Could I be causing electrical interference to the xDSL line by having the Master here? In which case moving it back to the living room would be a sensible plan?
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 27-Jan-21 12:57:23
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
Is moving it to the living room where you would shorten the run? If so, do it.

The power might or might not be causing an issue. You will never know until you try - electrical/electronic interference is often a "black art" and the unexpected happens. Sometime you might expect problems and nothing, other times, the reverse.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Wed 27-Jan-21 14:05:48
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
I would normally expect 550m to be over 50Mbps and potentially nearer 60.


More things within my control: I've made a settings change in my FritzBox. The Interference Resistance Settings were all set to 'maximum stability'. I've pushed them all to 'maximum performance'. Result, increase in actual and attainable speeds.

Earlier today they showed attainable of 40058 down, 12873 up and I was connected at 38447 and 9997.

Now I have an attainable of 47939 and 12913 and am connecting at the maximum for my package; 39999 and 9997. My SNR is now at 5dB and 7dB.

So, progress but I'm still not quite seeing the 13MBps upload I had the other day which is the point at which I'm willing to pay up for an 80/20 connection. Very close though. Lets see how stable the connection is though.
Standard User broadband66
(knowledge is power) Wed 27-Jan-21 14:20:07
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
"Currently I'm on a 40/10 deal and the "

"Current is : 38447 - 9997" Very nearly 40000 down and 10000 up

Are you not getting what you pay for?

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk, upgraded to fibre 40/10
Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Wed 27-Jan-21 15:06:06
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by broadband66:
Are you not getting what you pay for?


Never said I wasn't. What I'm trying to do is see is if I can increase my potential upload to a point where its worth my paying more for an 80/20 connection. So far it seems I could be able to get almost 13Mbps up.

Current current connection is at 39998 and 9997. So no complaints at all.
Standard User GonePostal
(committed) Wed 27-Jan-21 15:22:15
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Woolwich:
In reply to a post by broadband66:
Are you not getting what you pay for?


Never said I wasn't. What I'm trying to do is see is if I can increase my potential upload to a point where its worth my paying more for an 80/20 connection. So far it seems I could be able to get almost 13Mbps up.

Current current connection is at 39998 and 9997. So no complaints at all.


If you ISP will let you upgrade. Under the Advertising Standards Authority rules ISPs have to advertise average speeds that at least 50% of their customers receive at the network’s busiest time (8-10pm) (see the Advice Note on the OFCOM web-site). If you are only going to see a small gain in download speeds, you will probably be bringing down the average which it can advertise so it may have a policy not to sell in those circumstances.
Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Wed 27-Jan-21 15:27:41
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: GonePostal] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by GonePostal:
If you ISP will let you upgrade.


Hadn't though to that! But they're offering me a 40/10 connection estimated at 38 to 40 down and 9 up or an 80/20 with 38 - 60 and 9. And although I'm looking for an increase to upload I seem to be doing better increasing the download....
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 27-Jan-21 16:03:09
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
There is one small piece that can make a difference and often overlooked.

WHat do you have between socket and modem? Is it flat phone interconnect or a 2 pair Cat5e twisted pair cable? It may only be 1m long but as it is inside the house where there is a lot of noise, use of a twisted pair can bring a small but noticable improvement.

I tend to recommend using one of these from Kenable Cat5e Modem Cable


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Thu 28-Jan-21 08:14:15
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
There is one small piece that can make a difference and often overlooked.

WHat do you have between socket and modem? Is it flat phone interconnect or a 2 pair Cat5e twisted pair cable?


Good point, thanks, worth thinking about. I am actually using the cable supplied with the FritzBox so I'm hoping that's good! It has both DSL and POTS connections so is nice and neat. (The FritzBox has a DECT base station thus the POTS line.)

Meanwhile I've got my attainable up to nearly 51000 & 13500 (without moving the Master!). I'm watching it for a day or three before upgrading to a 80/20 service. I think its now as good as I can get it.
Standard User broadband66
(knowledge is power) Thu 28-Jan-21 16:29:35
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
"Never said I wasn't. What I'm trying to do is see is if I can increase my potential upload to a point where its worth my paying more for an 80/20 connection."

I get it now but you never actually mentioned about upgrading in your OP. The title suggests you are on a SLOW FTTC but you are actually on a very fast FTTC.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk, upgraded to fibre 40/10

Edited by broadband66 (Thu 28-Jan-21 16:30:53)

Standard User Woolwich
(committed) Thu 28-Jan-21 17:19:12
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by broadband66:
I get it now but you never actually mentioned about upgrading in your OP. The title suggests you are on a SLOW FTTC but you are actually on a very fast FTTC.


Sorry for the confusion! It's a long thread but somewhere I did say, "a one third increase in upload and I might be willing to pay the extra fiver".

I suppose it depends on you definition of slow and fast. I probably think its slow because its not as fast as the OR checker says it could be. But now I've fiddled with the router I agree, its fast - for a 40/10 connection. Also, I've had 80/20 connections in the past, so this one is slow! wink
Standard User Woolwich
(experienced) Tue 09-Feb-21 16:14:10
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
A few days later: Obviously touching the NTE5 is not allowed, so, obviously, I wouldn't do that, cos that would be naughty. But, as if by magic, I've been able to remove the 12 or 15 metres of internal cabling from the equation. My modem is now connected right where the OR pair enter the house.

I was hoping this might get me a few more Mb. Folk here seem to think my line length should get around 60Mbps. And if you've read the whole thread you'll know that my neighbours either side (and including those100% defiantly further from the cabinet than I) get a faster predicted speed than I do.

So the result. SFA. No difference.

I've now eliminated my internal wiring. Anything slowing me down in comparison with the rest of my street isn't in my house or under my control. And with my actual speeds within Openreach's predictions: nobody's going to take a look see.

I've had to connect using an old ECI modem so as to keep the rest of my network running on a FritzBox which can't be moved from its current position. That means I can't keep an eye on the stats. I can't see if the predicted speeds are going to increase over the next few days. Is that a possibility? If so I could connect a spare FritzBox and see what it reports. But I don't want to be doing that too often.

Last time I looked I had an attainable of around 48 to 49 down, a bit under 13 up. If I can get a stable figure over 13 its just about worth it for me to pay to move to an 80/20 service. If I could achieve the same as next door's predicted of up to 18 up, I'd be Very Happy.

What are my chances/options now?
Standard User heathrow
(regular) Wed 10-Feb-21 17:39:21
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
In which case the pair you're on probably isn't very good.



Providing the line is above the handback threshhold, OR won't do anythng - I'm afraid you've encountered the compromised nature of DSL. It's a technology which gets copper to do stuff it was never designed for.
Standard User Woolwich
(experienced) Wed 10-Feb-21 18:00:51
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: heathrow] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by heathrow:
In which case the pair you're on probably isn't very good.


I have a pair or pairs! If they were able to be swopped, would that make any odds? Being as the two pairs are contained in a single cable.

Supplementary question: what should I hear on a quiet line test? I mean a dead line, no sound what so ever? Or a bit of a quiet background that might even be the sound of me own lughole?
Standard User heathrow
(regular) Wed 10-Feb-21 20:33:05
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
Pair swapping? Depends which pair...

The pair on the dropwire, the pair from the DP to the cabinet....


It might either improve or worsen things.


Your quiet line test should be totally silent.


Best time to run it is after heavy downpour; if there are any wet joints you'll hear rice crispies on the line (snap, crackle, pop). Any problems with the voice circuit - report them.

My copper circuit was 500m cable run to the cabinet. I was AAISP and we could should that there were issues. I had a very helpful and good tech who replaced the dropwire, arranged for a new cable to be put into between DP and subDP (poles). This raised my speed from 33 to 45. IT should have been 60 for that length. However the buried cable from the DP to the cabinet was knackered and OR wouldn't replace it.

I've now ditched OR and have a Community Fibre link with VM backup.
Standard User Woolwich
(experienced) Thu 11-Feb-21 08:45:49
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: heathrow] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by heathrow:
Pair swapping? Depends which pair...

The pair on the dropwire, the pair from the DP to the cabinet....

I'm all underground. There's a joint box (JF2 or JF4 maybe) about 10 metres away then its 550m back to the cabinet, all underground.

Your quiet line test should be totally silent.


If I listen hard I think I can hear a bit of background hiss. Nothing like a noisy line at another flat I lived in though. I think most people would say it was quiet, but I'm not a trained engineer!

I've now ditched OR and have a Community Fibre link with VM backup.


No choice here...
Standard User heathrow
(regular) Thu 11-Feb-21 09:49:16
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Woolwich] [link to this post]
 
It might be worth getting a second pair of ears to listen to quiet line.



I suspect you're not going to be able to squeeze much more out of your pair.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 11-Feb-21 11:48:45
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: heathrow] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by heathrow:
I've now ditched OR and have a Community Fibre link with VM backup.
Less choices outside the big cities. I'm about 30miles south west of Heathrow. Here its VM coax cable, or 38 / 3 FTTC smile

21 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Standard User Pheasant
(committed) Sat 13-Feb-21 10:28:01
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by j0hn83:
I'm also not a fan of having 500m+ of CW1308 twisted pair then a random length of cat5 in the home, all part of the xdsl link.
I recommend CW1308 all the way to the modem! Cat5e from the modem to the router.

Electrically CW1308 is about the same ballpark characteristics as Category 3 of c.1989 vintage. It actually predates Cat3 by quite some years so that is perhaps complimentary. But anyway it’s really not a highly performant cable spec. Born in a world of 3KHz voice bandwidth and analogue modems.

There is no impedance mismatch with either cable type, they are both 100 ohm characteristic impedance. Cat5e actually has a far greater channel bandwidth at 100 MHz than CW1308 could ever hope too. It’s also superior for attenuation and cross talk. It’s designed and widely used in a structured cabling capacity to transport all manner of telco services.

Why would x meters of Cat5e in the DSL channel be detrimental?

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User broadband66
(knowledge is power) Sat 13-Feb-21 15:26:18
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
"Why would x meters of Cat5e in the DSL channel be detrimental?"

One would require x metres. smile 2 multimeters and 2 gas meters wouldn't cut it.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk, upgraded to fibre 40/10
Standard User Pheasant
(committed) Sat 13-Feb-21 15:50:53
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by broadband66:
"Why would x meters of Cat5e in the DSL channel be detrimental?"

One would require x metres. smile 2 multimeters and 2 gas meters wouldn't cut it.

Don't rush to go on the stand up circuit, when lockdown ends eh wink

now if you still want to talk meters rather than metres - what you want my friend is a frequency domain test using a cable analyser. These days typically a Fluke DSX or back in the day twas a PentaScanner.

CW1308 is .....well pretty rubbish cable to be fair. The only reason we use it is because its there (legacy), cheap and still strung up around the country.

I would encourage everyone to use at least Cat5e (or even Cat6 or 6A) as a means to reliably and properly extend networks around their homes and offices. This can also be successfully used for VDSL comms too. No issue and you then can put the £5 roll of CW1308 in the skip where it belongs, rather than your wall cavities.

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User broadband66
(knowledge is power) Sat 13-Feb-21 16:05:12
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
No need to preach to me.

Modem/Router --- Wireless AP (cable router dhcp off) --- Smart TV and SkyQ box

Modem/Router (as above) --- Switch (10/100) --- 2 PCs and Laptop

--- = cat5e cables lifted carpets, drilled through floorboards, pulled through ducts.

If one wants the best connectivity then a little hard work is required.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk, upgraded to fibre 40/10
Standard User Pheasant
(committed) Sat 13-Feb-21 16:08:39
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
Happy days for you chap. Enjoy yourself.

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User jabuzzard
(experienced) Sun 14-Feb-21 12:06:38
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pheasant:
CW1308 is .....well pretty rubbish cable to be fair. The only reason we use it is because its there (legacy), cheap and still strung up around the country.

I would encourage everyone to use at least Cat5e (or even Cat6 or 6A) as a means to reliably and properly extend networks around their homes and offices. This can also be successfully used for VDSL comms too. No issue and you then can put the £5 roll of CW1308 in the skip where it belongs, rather than your wall cavities.


I am not entirely sure that using ethernet cable to extend an xDSL line is best practice. The different twist rates over the line coming to your house is potentially an issue. Besides for a given length of cable the copper length increases as you go up the ethernet cable specs.

The best thing is to get the xDSL signal coming into the house converted to ethernet as soon as practically possible, and then take it as ethernet from there.

This almost invariably means a modem as close as possible to the NTE5. If you don't have power there then use power over ethernet and a splitter with a 12V output with a centre positive 2.1mm DC jack (more or less standard) to power the modem. Works for HG612's, ECI and Vigor modems, and most likely most others.

GIven that in due course the NTE5 is likely to be replaced with an ONT it's the way to go longer term.

A combined modem/router is almost never the best option.
Standard User Pheasant
(committed) Sun 14-Feb-21 13:18:28
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]
 
I guess having cut my teeth designing and putting structured cabling systems in my early career I see it differently...

It’s a popular mistake think of or even call (category or indeed class rated) twisted pair structured cabling as “Ethernet cable” - although it may now be predominantly used for such these days.

Ethernet was not the universal or ubiquitous networking technology, back in the day. In the late eighties and early nineties there were several cabling technologies that carried amongst other things Token Ring (remember that!) - typically IBM Type 1 and the first generation of Ethernet. Indeed Ethernet was first transported on Thicknet (10Base5) 50-ohm coaxial cabling with transceivers or Thinnet coaxial, as well as Category 3 UTP. I wouldn’t call coax “Ethernet cable” any more than 4-pair UTP.

Indeed when AT&T pioneered their 4-pair balanced UTP “structured cabling system” was designed from the outset to be a multi-protocol almost multi-media balanced pair transmission system for the carriage of LAN, WAN/telco signalling as well as video (with baluns).

My Broadband Speed Test

Edited by Pheasant (Sun 14-Feb-21 13:22:37)

Standard User clyde123
(member) Mon 15-Feb-21 08:46:39
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pheasant:
<snip>, amongst other things Token Ring (remember that!) - typically IBM Type 1 and the first generation of Ethernet. Indeed Ethernet was first transported on Thicknet (10Base5) 50-ohm coaxial cabling with transceivers or Thinnet coaxial, as well as Category 3 UTP. I wouldn’t call coax “Ethernet cable” any more than 4-pair UTP.

<snip>



Had forgotten about Broken Ring smile
Chuckle
Standard User Pheasant
(committed) Mon 15-Feb-21 10:14:41
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: clyde123] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by clyde123:
Had forgotten about Broken Ring smile
Chuckle

Hehe. Tell me about it. Or diagnosing a network fault on thin-net - one cable break or misplaced terminator and the entire network is dead.

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Mon 15-Feb-21 11:46:44
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: Pheasant] [link to this post]
 
Some of the companies in my industry still have token-ring installations and they are being maintained. Although they are likely to finally disappear soon.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Pheasant
(committed) Mon 15-Feb-21 17:00:51
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Re: Squeezing a few more megs from a slow FTTC


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
Some of the companies in my industry still have token-ring installations and they are being maintained. Although they are likely to finally disappear soon.

What industry if you don't me asking? Last time I crossed paths with TR was back in Australia in the mid-late nineties, in retail banking, where it was being replaced with you guessed it.

My Broadband Speed Test
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