Locating Inteference

Ever since I moved in to my current house I have been struggling with inteference. You guys might remember I had issues with FTTC (FTTC Issues). In the end I couldn't get to the bottom of it, so just moved back to Virgin Media as this fixed the issue from a speed perspective.

Unfortunately I am still having many problems with bluetooth and WiFi devices in the room that I use as my office. For example the bluetooth (and also non bluetooth mouses where you get a little dongle) can be right next to the machines yet I get judders and randomness with the movement of the mouse. I have found WiFi is also problematic in the room, it works, but will cut out for a split secondor so which causes websites not to load properly and endless pressing refresh (the WiFi connection isn't lost, just the throughput) .

Any ideas if there are any apps or similar where I could see visually what's going on to try and fix this issue? Or any other advise people might have who have had a similar issue.

Edited by gary333 (Tue 31-Aug-21 11:48:49)

So the issues have persisted after a swap of service between Openreach FTTC to Virgin ?

So it’s very local to your property. Did you try the radio trick ?

In reply to a post by gary333:

Any ideas if there are any apps or similar where I could see visually what's going on to try and fix this issue? Or any other advise people might have who have had a similar issue.

This is going to be expensive. All those devices use the 2.4 GHz "ISM" band (Industrial, Scientific & Medical) which was deregulated and so is used for WiFi and Bluetooth and the proprietary radio links between keyboard/mouse and computer.

You need something that is looking in the 2.4 GHz spectrum and is not limited to just WiFi or Bluetooth transmissions, so you need a "spectrum analyser". The sort of thing that can show you if a faulty microwave oven is causing your 2.4 GHz to be unusable.

This is the sort of product that Metageek make, e.g. WiSpy and Chanalyzer:
https://www.metageek.com/products/wi-spy/

There may be others.

Edited by jchamier (Tue 31-Aug-21 20:42:38)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

So the issues have persisted after a swap of service between Openreach FTTC to Virgin ?

So it’s very local to your property. Did you try the radio trick ?

I did try the radio trick back when I had FTTC, it seems to be worse near the electricity smart meter however the whole side of the house and rooms seem to be noise heavy.

Can you completely switch off and run just the circuits for you PC or even (if laptop) drop the whole house and see if interference subsides? Go back one breaker at a time and check.

So try isolating the relays on the fuse board one by one till you narrow it down.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Can you completely switch off and run just the circuits for you PC or even (if laptop) drop the whole house and see if interference subsides? Go back one breaker at a time and check.

Good point. I did try this last time but even with just the PC circuit on the interference was still there (and the noise was also there on the radio when master switch was off). I now have a new laptop (where the problem also exists) so i'll give that a go tomorrow. I suppose I could also turn the isolate off in the meter cabinet to rule out the consumer unit completely.

Edited by gary333 (Tue 31-Aug-21 22:01:12)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

So try isolating the relays on the fuse board one by one till you narrow it down.

Ta. I'll give it a go tomrrow and report back

Precisely take the whole house out from the isolator. and check one breaker at a time. It could be a neighbour or something that you’d never otherwise consider could be the cause.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Precisely take the whole house out from the isolator. and check one breaker at a time. It could be a neighbour or something that you’d never otherwise consider could be the cause.

It had crossed my mind as I’m on a looped supply (I’m the master, next door is the slave). Although it’s unlikely to be them as this problem was present when their house was empty. Does make me wonder if it’s a neighbour but seems strange this problem is most evident in my office/right side of the house. Although, my house is wired left and right, so I suppose that might be another flag.

gary333

Does your smart meter use your Wifi for it's comms or a mobile date connection. It sounds like it is interfering with your wifi and may actually be faulty. ( or just poorly shielded).

Do any present day (utility provided) smart meters use customer side WiFi for any comms?

I was under the distinct impression that all SMETS1 and 2 meters used their own locked down WAN connection and the in-house HAN (meter to display and leccy to gas meter) was all locked-down Zigbee.

Edited by Pheasant (Wed 01-Sep-21 05:59:08)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I was under the distinct impression that all SMETS1 and 2 meters used their own locked down WAN connection and the in-house HAN (meter to display and leccy to gas meter) was all locked-down Zigbee.

Zigbee runs on 2.4 GHz, so if faulty???

Possibly a lack of caffeine, dunno 😎, but I was thinking 868 MHz Zig when I wrote that earlier.

To troubleshoot the meter, you'd need to pull the main DNO fuse...or otherwise shield the meter to see if it helps. Then if the gas meter is smart, that would need to be likewise shielded....then if its the neighbours....

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Possibly a lack of caffeine, dunno 😎, but I was thinking 868 MHz Zig when I wrote that earlier.

I thought that was US only? But I'm likely wrong!!

To troubleshoot the meter, you'd need to pull the main DNO fuse...or otherwise shield the meter to see if it helps. Then if the gas meter is smart, that would need to be likewise shielded....then if its the neighbours....

Can everyone pull the DNO fuse? Sounds like a question for UKPN.

Believe that 868 is for Europe and North America is 915. Global is 2.4.

Think there’s some limited deployment now of 868 for smart meter HAN now, but not 100% on that.

DNO fuses should by rights only to be pulled by the DNO or their authorised reps like meter installers etc, but in my experience sparks will jfdi if they’re working on the supply side of the wiring, before the CU and need the wiring fully isolated.

I wouldn’t ever recommend an untrained person do this though. There’s absolutely no protection should something happen.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

gary333

Does your smart meter use your Wifi for it's comms or a mobile date connection. It sounds like it is interfering with your wifi and may actually be faulty. ( or just poorly shielded).

The smart meter is in the "North" so uses the 423mhz for RF comms with Arqiva for it's comms back to base to transmit 30 min meter reads and such like. The comms unit itself has 2.4ghz to connect internally via Zigbee. I also have issues with that device (the in-home display unit seemingly losing connection often, so I don't use it anymore).

The 868mhz Zigbee as far as I know is available for houses with really poor signal, but wasn't when I got my meters installed last year. I know it costs the supplier more for that version so it's not the default frequency.

Unfortunately even the 868mhz band was being inteferred with (by whatever the mystical problem is) as I spent months trying to get my Evohome to work correctly, but even Honeywell couldn't get to the bottom of what was going on (so I had to switch to Tado).

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Possibly a lack of caffeine, dunno 😎, but I was thinking 868 MHz Zig when I wrote that earlier.

I thought that was US only? But I'm likely wrong!!

To troubleshoot the meter, you'd need to pull the main DNO fuse...or otherwise shield the meter to see if it helps. Then if the gas meter is smart, that would need to be likewise shielded....then if its the neighbours....

Can everyone pull the DNO fuse? Sounds like a question for UKPN.

Unfortunately not even electricians are supposed to pull the fuse unless they are authorised by the DNO (at least in my area - Northern Power). Luckily for me my dad is an electrician so does have some of the security tags, so in theory yes we could pull out the main fuse.

Your place isn’t sited over an ancient ley line by any chance? 😎

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Your place isn’t sited over an ancient ley line by any chance? 😎

Hehe. No, but it is sited over an old hospital, so makes me wonder if they burried the x-ray machines and other radioactive waste lol.

Haha. Got a Geiger counter handy!

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I was under the distinct impression that all SMETS1 and 2 meters used their own locked down WAN connection and the in-house HAN (meter to display and leccy to gas meter) was all locked-down Zigbee.

Zigbee runs on 2.4 GHz, so if faulty???

Have been having fun & games with my smart meters,losing signal, wifi issues,they were single band SMET meters which are on 2.4GHz, but there is dual band SMET meters that use the lower 868MHz it's for thick walls or for longer distances between gas & electric meter.
Have had fitted dual band gas & electric meter & has now totally solved my problems.
A lot of supplier know about them, but some suppliers like EDF, haven't a clue about dual band meters,took me a while to get them to understand about them.

https://www.geotogether.com/blog/dual-band/

https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/our-smart-network/current...

Edited by Nightglow (Wed 01-Sep-21 13:27:58)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Believe that 868 is for Europe and North America is 915. Global is 2.4.

Think there’s some limited deployment now of 868 for smart meter HAN now, but not 100% on that.

DNO fuses should by rights only to be pulled by the DNO or their authorised reps like meter installers etc, but in my experience sparks will jfdi if they’re working on the supply side of the wiring, before the CU and need the wiring fully isolated.

I wouldn’t ever recommend an untrained person do this though. There’s absolutely no protection should something happen.

Rolling out dual band quite a lot now.

https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/our-smart-network/current...

There also FLONIDAN ultrasonic smart gas meter , which are coming, they also have dual band option.

https://www.smart-energy.com/resources/press-release...

Edited by Nightglow (Wed 01-Sep-21 13:46:23)

In reply to a post by Nightglow:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I was under the distinct impression that all SMETS1 and 2 meters used their own locked down WAN connection and the in-house HAN (meter to display and leccy to gas meter) was all locked-down Zigbee.

Zigbee runs on 2.4 GHz, so if faulty???

Have been having fun & games with my smart meters,losing signal, wifi issues,they were single band SMET meters which are on 2.4GHz, but there is dual band SMET meters that use the lower 868MHz it's for thick walls or for longer distances between gas & electric meter.
Have had fitted dual band gas & electric meter & has now totally solved my problems.
A lot of supplier know about them, but some suppliers like EDF, haven't a clue about dual band meters,took me a while to get them to understand about them.

https://www.geotogether.com/blog/dual-band/

https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/our-smart-network/current...

Where your meters made by EDMI? I have just fired an email off to them to ask for assistance.

Were you getting inteference too, or is it just that the construction of your house led to 2.4ghz being unsuitable? How did you go about getting the smart meters swapped? I tried with EON about a year ago but got no-where. I am now with Octopus for electricity but EON still for gas.

Hi Gary

Where about in the UK are you? I have an advanced WiFi spectrum analyzer as well as RF analyzers (up to 50Ghz) that might help you with the problem, would be happy to provide support if you need it.

Cheers

Stephen

No,both meters are by LANDIS +GYR, electric meter is in inside cupboard & gas meter is the other side of cavity wall, so they are roughly 300mm -400mm apart, & I had all sort of issues with them refusing to talk to each other,even adding credit online, I quite often had to had enter the UTRN (Unique Transaction Reference Number) manually.
House is usual brick & block construction, we had several engineers out,changed meters,firmware updates,nothing worked, so I do a bit of research & found out about dual meters.
It took quite a few months of phone calls & emails,& making myself unpopular with EDF,beforeI got I finally got things sorted.

Also got my DNO (distribution network operator) Western Power to replaced the cutout FOC, as it was a orginal (Biscuit Tin) cutout from when house new, so nearly 60 years old, & had slight wiff of burnt fabric, & a buzzy noise when there was a good load on, WP also upgraded fuse from 60A to 80A, not many DNO's will fit 100A fuses nowadays.

GEO where a great help with info regarding dual band In-Home Display.

https://www.geotogether.com/blog/dual-band/

https://www.smartme.co.uk/technical.html

A good guide on cutouts.

https://www.energynetworks.org/industry-hub/resource...

Edited by Nightglow (Wed 01-Sep-21 18:48:43)

In reply to a post by weesteev:

Hi Gary

Where about in the UK are you? I have an advanced WiFi spectrum analyzer as well as RF analyzers (up to 50Ghz) that might help you with the problem, would be happy to provide support if you need it.

Cheers

Stephen

Hi Stephen. I am located close to Doncaster. Is this similar to your location at all?

Not even close (Scotland!) but i travel a lot so could swing by sometime if that helps. Drop me a PM.

Cheers

Steve

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

So the issues have persisted after a swap of service between Openreach FTTC to Virgin ?

So it’s very local to your property. Did you try the radio trick ?

I thought I'd order a new digitally tuned radio from China to see if I have anymore luck with regards to this. This one works much better than the manual one I used before as I can set to 612mhz exactly.

It looks like my Dell monitor could actually be one of the main culprits. The desk / monitor is actually behind the smart meters (they are on the external wall. Across the full width and length of my desk there is a aweful lots of squealing. This desk also has cable management with the plug sockets just beneath the top surface and one of the USB chargers is also making a lot of noise.

I have noticed the TP-Link Smart plugs (KP115 - power monitoring type) are also very noisy.

Now this doesn't explain the FTTC problem I had a year or so ago, as this would come and go at different times of the day (usually worse on a night). However make sense why the problem zone is my office as the monitor is quite large and laptops, computers, mouses etc are all super close to it.

Anyone know if this type of significant noise from an LCD monitor is normal?

Wife and I have two very large widescreen Dell monitors immediate adjacent in our study and they don’t particularly seem to upset the WiFi or Bluetooth or anything else.

It could just be a dodgy power supply or a degrading DC/DC converter within the circuit board (both which run at very high switching frequency) which is emitting the excess RF noise. Switch monitor off from wall and check?

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Wife and I have two very large widescreen Dell monitors immediate adjacent in our study and they don’t particularly seem to upset the WiFi or Bluetooth or anything else.

It could just be a dodgy power supply or a degrading DC/DC converter within the circuit board (both which run at very high switching frequency) which is emitting the excess RF noise. Switch monitor off from wall and check?

When the mains power is switched off the noise stops. I have tried a different power cable to rule that out, and it's deffo from inside the monitor itself as that made no difference. If I turn the monitor to standbye/off from the monitors buttons (so it'll still have some small amounts of current whilst in standby) the noise also disappears.

I need to get my network cables terminated and use them. Only been dangling out the walls for nearly 3 years lol.

In reply to a post by gary333:

I thought I'd order a new digitally tuned radio from China to see if I have anymore luck with regards to this. This one works much better than the manual one I used before as I can set to 612mhz exactly.

612 mhz? Just over 0.5 Hz - that is rather low.

Unless you mean 612MHz - which itself if way above/below any potential interference an rado do not normally go to that frequency

Edited by MHC (Sat 11-Sep-21 13:36:56)

Swap out the monitor? You could otherwise go wired network, but your other wireless devices, mouse etc would presumably still be affected by the interference caused by the monitor.

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by gary333:

I thought I'd order a new digitally tuned radio from China to see if I have anymore luck with regards to this. This one works much better than the manual one I used before as I can set to 612mhz exactly.

612 mhz? Just over 0.5 Hz - that is rather low.

Unless you mean 612MHz - which itself if way above/below any potential interference an rado do not normally go to that frequency

Presumably he meant 612 kilohertz (in the AM range). 612 MHz (megaHertz) is upper UHF band and 612 milliHertz simply makes no sense, despite the small ‘m’ shorthand used above.

612 MW is what my trusty Roberts is tuned to.

Yes Sir. 612 medium wave = 612 kHz (amplitude modulation)

It's not clear from your post but is this actually causing any problem? Do all your Wi-Fi and Bluetooth issues clear up when you turn this display off?

At the moment all we know is that you've found that a component in your monitor is putting out noise on a certain frequency, but that's all.

In reply to a post by jpm:

It's not clear from your post but is this actually causing any problem? Do all your Wi-Fi and Bluetooth issues clear up when you turn this display off?

At the moment all we know is that you've found that a component in your monitor is putting out noise on a certain frequency, but that's all.

When shifting the monitor out of the office and using just the laptop screen the issue seems to go away for the mouse/keyboard. I am not totally sure yet if the problem is erradicated as the WiFi issues are mainly seen on my PC/server (which obviously needs a screen and it's where there appears to me micro interruptions rather than the signal is not usable. This means pressing F5 a lot.

Oh yeah, 612kHz (or 612KHz as the radio labels it) although i'm sure you all knew this

Edited by gary333 (Sat 11-Sep-21 18:19:40)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Yes Sir. 612 medium wave = 612 kHz (amplitude modulation)

If ya say so ….. I just wanders round listening I does.

And if it sounds interesting enough the 444 meter comes out as well.

What does a 444 meter measure?

It is a 444B and measures RF/EMI strength as part of REIN investigatiions and gives an audio output. Made by Mimtel.

In reply to a post by gary333:

In reply to a post by jpm:

It's not clear from your post but is this actually causing any problem? Do all your Wi-Fi and Bluetooth issues clear up when you turn this display off?

At the moment all we know is that you've found that a component in your monitor is putting out noise on a certain frequency, but that's all.

When shifting the monitor out of the office and using just the laptop screen the issue seems to go away for the mouse/keyboard. I am not totally sure yet if the problem is erradicated as the WiFi issues are mainly seen on my PC/server (which obviously needs a screen and it's where there appears to me micro interruptions rather than the signal is not usable. This means pressing F5 a lot.

Oh yeah, 612kHz (or 612KHz as the radio labels it) although i'm sure you all knew this

Is the Dell monitor at the tip ....or did you otherwise find the source of the inference?