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Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Mon 28-Jan-13 15:36:42
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Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[link to this post]
 
Hi everyone,

on Sunday (yesterday) we had a new phone line installed from the pole outside to our house, this was to fix an issue where the phone line had noise and the internet kept dropping out.

Since it was repaired we have seen download speeds from 0-15KBPS where previously we had had 800KBPS maximum. I checked the BT speed tester for our line and it reports an IP Profile of 0.14 Mbps. Below are the stats from the router:

Link Information

Uptime: 1 day, 4:59:19

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.1

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 4.960

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 134,06 / 644,74

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11,9 / 13,8

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,0 / 6,0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 23,0 / 15,3

So far I have been following instructions from the BT Community Forums, which say to leave the connection up for 3-5 days and by then the IP Profile should have gone up and the noise margin gone down, giving us normal download speeds.

Is there anything else that I can do? Am I even doing the right thing to begin with?

Any help would be appreciated,

Matt.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 28-Jan-13 15:49:47
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
You are on the old IPStream Max service, so yes IP Profile may take 3 to 5 days to recover from a slow connection event.
Hopefully it will be quicker, keep an eye on the uptime and router stats to make sure they don't wander around too much.

Beyond that, how close to the exchange are you, as the attenuation figrues if correct suggest you are within a couple of hundred metres and even with a 15dB noise margin should be connecting at better speeds. For now don't fiddle with anything lets see if the IP profile can recover as it should automatically do.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Mon 28-Jan-13 15:51:34
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
leave it off overnight and power it up again in the morning.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics


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Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Mon 28-Jan-13 15:57:11
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Hey, thanks for the quick reply!

We are only a road away from the exchange, and @yarwell, I have been told its not a good idea to turn the router off during the 'testing period' of 3-5 days while the IP Profile is recovering, wouldn't this restart the testing period again?

Matt
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Mon 28-Jan-13 16:01:53
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
I have been told its not a good idea to turn the router off during the 'testing period' of 3-5 days while the IP Profile is recovering, wouldn't this restart the testing period again?
No, that would be nonsense.

The only time the upstream systems are told about the sync speed is when it restarts, or gets picked up by an overnight sweep, as it is event driven. Sometimes turning it off for half an hour is enough, but if it's off overnight the chances of a data hygiene routine noting its absence also help.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 28-Jan-13 16:12:09
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
The resync would only cause a problem anyway if the sync was a lot lower than the current one anyway.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Mon 28-Jan-13 16:15:09
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
That's strange because even on the official BT forums they were saying to leave it for 3-5 days, and I did restart the router immediately after the new phone line had been installed, and it didn't help then... I'm just interested in the technical side of how restarting it would help the exchange to notice that the line is working again.

My idea was, the exchange monitors the line and after 3-5 days when it has shown itself to be consistently working fine, it raises the IP profile, isn't this what happens?

Matt
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 28-Jan-13 16:19:33
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
What can happen sometimes is a modem reconnects but the message sent to the anonymous database hidden somewhere in the BT cloud can go missing, and thus it never updates the IP Profile.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/faq/sections/radsl.htm... gives more words on IP profile.

If you line is jumping around between 0.3 Meg sync and 4Meg sync then the IP profile is unlikely to ever be more than 0.25, but a resync at the same speed or within a few Kbps of the same should have no effect on slowing it down at coming back, and helps to ensure the database has a current figure in it for you.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Mon 28-Jan-13 16:37:44
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Andrew, I read the guide you linked and it seems to be saying that it shouldn't even take 3 days to recover the IP Profile?

Also, how is the profile ever going to increase if my current download speeds remain the same? Is it more based on what the line can take, rather than what it is currently syncing at?

Thanks again
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Mon 28-Jan-13 16:58:25
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
My idea was, the exchange monitors the line and after 3-5 days when it has shown itself to be consistently working fine, it raises the IP profile, isn't this what happens?


No. Each time there is a sync event, or possibly an overnight check, the sync speed is reported upstream to an invisible system that updates the BRAS with a new IP profile if the sync speed has changed and send the ISP a delta report identifying the new IP profile.

There's a rate limit on changes, but large changes (like yours) should get priority. However you need an event to start the whole process, if the last one got lost then the suggested power-off will generate one.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Mon 28-Jan-13 17:02:01
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Also, how is the profile ever going to increase if my current download speeds remain the same? Is it more based on what the line can take, rather than what it is currently syncing at?
The profile is a simple lookup table of speeds based on the sync speed. 2272 sync is 2000 profile, as is 2304, 2336 etc but 2240 is 1750 profile.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Mon 28-Jan-13 17:27:56
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Okay, I'm confused about 2 things.

Firstly, the invisible upstream system updates the profile based on the sync speed of my line BUT at the same time the sync speed of my line is being limited by the IP Profile, so how can it ever improve/update?

Second, you say that overnight checks occur, however, either there was no overnight check last night, or there was but it failed to update... You say that it could of 'got lost' but it has had the chance to update twice now: when i restarted the router after the line was installed, and also last night on the overnight check.

Could anyone help clear up this confusion for me? I'm fairly new to understanding the techy side of broadband but I'm giving it a go, if nothing else for future reference.
Standard User David_W
(experienced) Mon 28-Jan-13 17:34:35
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
Firstly, the invisible upstream system updates the profile based on the sync speed of my line BUT at the same time the sync speed of my line is being limited by the IP Profile, so how can it ever improve/update?
Sync speed depends on the target noise margin, not the IP profile. The IP profile regulates the maximum downstream bandwidth, not the speed that downstream synchronises.

Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Mon 28-Jan-13 17:39:31
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Firstly, the invisible upstream system updates the profile based on the sync speed of my line BUT at the same time the sync speed of my line is being limited by the IP Profile, so how can it ever improve/update?
The IP profile does not control your sync speed. The DLM system may have given it a high target margin of 15 which is depressing the sync speed to 4M or so. DLM and profiles are entirely separate.

If you want it to update you should give it some data to work with. Turn it off for half an hour, see what the sync speed / margin does, leave it off overnight. Should get you two tickets in the lottery then give it 3 days.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics

Edited by yarwell (Mon 28-Jan-13 17:42:49)

Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Mon 28-Jan-13 17:49:18
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Thanks guys, I was getting bit confused there, just to clarify is the sync speed the same as the maximum achievable speed, as shown in BT's Speedtest website? Or is it the speed of the connection as shown on my router?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Mon 28-Jan-13 17:51:47)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 28-Jan-13 18:17:17
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Sync speed is the speed of the connection shown on your router

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 28-Jan-13 18:21:03
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
The IP Profile part (ignoring any DLM and target noise margin issues) has evolved

2006 - it was a fixed three days for any improvement
2009 - (date is a bit of guess), this changed to be a variable time, between 1 hour and 5 days. Most commonly it is a couple of days, but we say 3 to 5 so you know not to sit there starring at the router.

The FAQ's and ISP's may confuse as the IP profile profiles differently also for the two product lines

IPStream MAX - which you are on follows the above rules (MAX is used by less than 20% of UK)

WBC (ADSL2+ from BT Wholesale) follows a simpler system, IP Profile is calculated as 88.2% of the sync speed whenever the modem syncs. Newer system, better design and more capable hardware.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Mon 28-Jan-13 18:34:50
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
just to add that with

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,0 / 6,0

you should get 8128 / 448 or if interleaved perhaps 7616 / 448 sync speed. Does it improve in the test socket behind the master faceplate ?

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Mon 28-Jan-13 19:20:17
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Well before the engineer was called out we tried the test socket, and that was what showed that there was a line fault, but now that its been fixed haven't really touched it.

What I'm thinking is that the router was only restarted once, and that was straight after the line was fixed, and it was a straight on/off, no 30 minute wait etc. So maybe the previous line faults caused it to still re-sync at this low speed.

I'm thinking leave the router off for 30 minutes, then restart, to let it sync back up to a hopefully higher speed, now that the line has been ok for nearly 2 days, does that sound like a good plan?
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 28-Jan-13 19:28:30
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
Firstly, the invisible upstream system updates the profile based on the sync speed of my line BUT at the same time the sync speed of my line is being limited by the IP Profile
No, latter is untrue. Your throughput, not sync, is limited by IP profile. It goes like this:

Sync Speed -> IP Profile -> Throughput.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Mon 28-Jan-13 19:47:03
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
That's cleared a lot up for me thanks.

My only question now would be, I am going to reboot but when would be the best time to do it, and how long should I leave it off for?
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 28-Jan-13 19:50:49
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Daylight hours; just half a min. will suffice.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 28-Jan-13 20:02:46
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
That's cleared a lot up for me thanks.

My only question now would be, I am going to reboot but when would be the best time to do it, and how long should I leave it off for?
All about BT IP Profiles. You're on the Old system.

It normally updates automatically, but maybe a single re-boot would be a good idea. The best time to do that is well inside daylight hours, so varies depending on the time of year.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Mon 28-Jan-13 20:18:21
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Thanks, I'm getting varying answers... earlier in the thread someone said to leave it off overnight crazy

Basically I am trying to Re-Sync my router. Without it re-syncing to a higher sync rate, there's no way the IP Profile is going to be lifted.

What would all of you do in this situation?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 28-Jan-13 20:41:26
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
You are mixing up sync rate and throughput rate.

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 4,960

are your up and down sync rates. The down rate determines your IP Profile, which on 4,960kbps will become 4000kbps, (as per the table in the pages I linked to), and your throughput rate should then get within 60% and 90% of that in normal running.

As has been said, the update can occasionally fail. However in my experience it is usually triggered by the night-time check the system automatically issues. I would leave it on so that check can take place. When that happens, no re-sync is needed.

Hence my suggestion you do a re-sync during daylight tomorrow, if it doesn't happen tonight. Possibly leave it off for 10-20 minutes to make sure all parts of the system recognise it.

Leaving it off overnight I have great doubts is anything more than a myth, or perhaps it is just a way of guaranteeing that recognition. Theoretically 2 minutes switched off time should be sufficient.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 28-Jan-13 20:42:44)

Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Mon 28-Jan-13 22:10:45
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Right, I have just been on the phone with a couple of guys from Tesco Broadband. They told me to plug in to test socket and then restart router. So I left it off for 20 minutes then restarted.

Exact same figures. (In fact the downstream sync rate has now gone down)

Uptime: 0 days, 0:29:12

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.1

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 4.928

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 4,33 / 21,34

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11,9 / 13,8

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,0 / 6,0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 23,0 / 15,4


I'm stumped. Does anyone have any further suggestions as to how I can get the sync rate back up again?

If the sync rate stays where it is, the overnight IP Profile update won't do anything, as our connection is slow it will leave us in the 0.14Mbps profile right?

Thanks very much everyone for your help with this smile

Edited by matthewcl375 (Mon 28-Jan-13 22:12:20)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 28-Jan-13 22:39:12
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
You keep asking how to get the sync rate back up.

Please tell us what figure you think is your sync rate, and what you think you should be able to get it back up to?

Please also do the BT Performance Test, ignore the first set of results it gives you, and click the Further Diagnostics button at the bottom of those. Then copy and paste all the contents of the down and up results text boxes. We don't need a screen grab of the graphics.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Mon 28-Jan-13 22:50:47
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
My sync rate is 4928Kbps, as shown on the router. To be honest I had never checked it before when it was working, so I don't know exactly what number it should be at, all I know is that it should be much higher than it is now.

BTW Speedtest gives the following:

Download speedachieved during the test was - 0.06 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 0.05 Mbps-0.25 Mbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :4.93 Mbps(DOWN-STREAM), 0.45 Mbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 0.14 Mbps
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 28-Jan-13 23:04:18
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Which means there is no reason other than the time delays for the IP Profile to rise to 4 Mbps (4000Kbps)

The line is under performing, but lets see if the IP profile rises to a useable figure first.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Mon 28-Jan-13 23:13:24
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
I'm thinking leave the router off for 30 minutes, then restart, to let it sync back up to a hopefully higher speed, now that the line has been ok for nearly 2 days, does that sound like a good plan?
Good place to start.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 28-Jan-13 23:14:37
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
And we've already had a re-sync so no need to do one.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 28-Jan-13 23:16:22
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by yarwell:
I'm thinking leave the router off for 30 minutes, then restart, to let it sync back up to a hopefully higher speed, now that the line has been ok for nearly 2 days, does that sound like a good plan?
Good place to start.
Pointless. See here.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Mon 28-Jan-13 23:22:50
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
My mistake. What's shown on the router is 4.928 Kbps, not 4928Kbps crazy

Am I out of options? I've already tried re-syncing, just can't get the sync rate to budge frown

Edited by matthewcl375 (Mon 28-Jan-13 23:26:13)

Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Mon 28-Jan-13 23:42:40
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
not pointless, but done already.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Mon 28-Jan-13 23:54:01
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Theoretically 2 minutes switched off time should be sufficient.
The PPP session timeout is longer than that so while a few seconds gives you a retrain it may not trigger a new session (having watched the logs at both ends).

If it's off overnight the night-time check will pick up a no data (or zero) and then generate a delta report when it does sync in the morning.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Tue 29-Jan-13 01:29:14
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
@yarwell, what you're saying makes sense, but could doing it in the daytime really improve it that much, I mean it would have to jump up a hell of a lot from the current rate of 4.928kbps crazy

I also considered the SNR, which is currently 15,5 maximum. This could be stopping the sync from going up maybe? I mean does the SNR normally change by itself, or does it require a restart of the router?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Tue 29-Jan-13 02:29:10)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 29-Jan-13 09:35:56
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Do you really mean 4 decimal point 928 kilo bits per second?

A dialup modem would usually provide 50 kilo bits per second (Kbps), and the ISP should see this as a clear fault and very surprised the modem would sync at all, as in theory minimum sync is 160 Kbps. Also 0.06 Mbps as the download speed result from the BT speedtest is actually 60 Kbps.

What I think you have is a router with a web interface that is using decimal point to seperate thousands and comma's for decimal points.

So pretty sure in reality your connection speed is 4928 (four thousand nine hundred and twenty eight) Kbps. The translation of web interfaces from various languages often causes these sorts of oddities.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User huwwatkins
(member) Tue 29-Jan-13 10:59:36
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I think you should be more concerned about fixing the line fault first before worrying about IP Profiles.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 29-Jan-13 11:46:35
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
What I think you have is a router with a web interface that is using decimal point to separate thousands and comma's for decimal points.
Yes, OP's router is displaying numbers in the European, not UK, convention and OP hasn't cottoned on.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Tue 29-Jan-13 11:54:27
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Guys,

Guess what? Routerstats is also showing 4928Kbps so I think you may be right! If this is the case then as MrSaffron says all that I need do is wait for the profile to be updated.

However, previous to this I had waited for nearly 2 days without an update of the Profile, should it really take that long?

Thanks
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Tue 29-Jan-13 11:54:54
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
yes, the high target SNR margin is holding down the sync. That should rectify over a few weeks if the line is stable now. Looks like you have a target of 15. If you can't get the ISP to reset it then waiting is the only option.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 29-Jan-13 11:57:16
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
If the line is flapping around e.g. connecting at 0.2 Mbps for a few seconds and then back to 4.9Mbps - then yes you may end up with your IP profile always stuck at a low value.

This is why one poster is saying you need to sort out your line issue.

Though if memory is working you did show an uptime of over 24 hours at some point in this thread.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Tue 29-Jan-13 12:01:54
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
The line speed (sync speed) is perfectly stable, now at 4960Kbps after a daylight hours reboot. The only time it changes is if i manually reboot the router.

My understanding was that it goes SNR Margin -> Sync Speed -> IP Profile -> Throughput, so Im not sure how it came to be that the Sync Speed is 4960 but the SNR Margin is so high?
Standard User huwwatkins
(member) Tue 29-Jan-13 12:12:41
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
You should be getting maximum sync of 8128 or 7616 considering your line attenuation. Your SNR is high (should be 6db) which is suppressing your sync rate - this could be indicative of a line fault or just a consequence of your previous line drop outs before the cable was replaced.

Might be worth asking your ISP to reset the target margin in case its a hang over from your previous issues.

Edited by huwwatkins (Tue 29-Jan-13 12:15:03)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 29-Jan-13 12:21:11
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
First one in your list is really Target SNR margin.

The target seems set to 15dB, starts at 6dB when line is first activated and the automatic system over weeks or months if they detect instability rise the target in steps of 3dB until a speed that is more stable is found.

The interference is that your line has burst of noise some 10dB or bigger in size, or did in the past and setting a 15 target means the modem can hang onto the service.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 29-Jan-13 12:30:25
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
so Im not sure how it came to be that the Sync Speed is 4960 but the SNR Margin is so high?
The NM is so high, mainly but entirely, cuz your line is so short that it would have plenty of spare bandwidth were it not forced down by G.DMT, which you are compelled to use. The other contributor to the high NM must be faulty wiring as, for the same reason, you should be syncing at 8128 K..

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Tue 29-Jan-13 12:58:22
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
It's true that my line did have loads of noise, that is why we had to replace the phone line to the street outside, but now that issue has completely gone, it needs to be reset I am thinking?

@HuwWatkins Yes, it should be a lot higher, also considering that this is a brand new phone line, before we were getting up to 8-900 Kilobytes Per Second

Edited by matthewcl375 (Tue 29-Jan-13 13:02:15)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 29-Jan-13 13:22:52
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
before we were getting up to 8-900 Kilobytes Per Second
Kilobits per sec, written as kbps.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Tue 29-Jan-13 13:24:47
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
UPDATE:

Tesco just called, put me straight through to someone who knew what they were talking about (makes a change) who got me to run BTW Speed test and send results to him. They're going to get their network team to run a check using BT Open reach's system and then take it from there.

He agreed with what you all have been saying, that it's the noise from before the new line was installed which is keeping me syncing so low, and Tesco are happy to request a reset of my IP Profile (I guess that includes noise margin) if it is needed!

Tesco are going to get back to us within 48 hours about this. Now there's customer service

Edited by matthewcl375 (Tue 29-Jan-13 13:25:42)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 29-Jan-13 13:28:33
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
A reset of IP profile is independent of the noise margin.
If they had said a reset of the DLM to let the line learn the optimum settings, then that would have covered both.

Key phrase that BT Wholesale understand is 'reset the target noise margin to default 6dB to allow the line to train', a fairly common request after some infrastructure work on a line.

The data on the line and its performance both current and historical should be visible to the ISP, but often providers don't push this information to the people you can talk to.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Tue 29-Jan-13 13:37:00
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Hmmmm from what he said it sounded like they would go through their system, find what the fault is and push for BTW (Openreach) to sort it out, whether it be target noise margin or the IP Profile, but I will forward what you have said to the same guy at Tesco just to be on the safe side.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 29-Jan-13 13:43:28
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
BT Wholesale is not Openreach.

Openreach just run the copper from exchange to the home. BT Wholesale control and run the DSLAM that Tesco use, well actually Tesco buy a service off C&W who then buy it off BT Wholesale as they don't have their hardware in your exchange most likely.

Hence a long chain and plenty of scope for people to not understand.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Tue 29-Jan-13 13:49:23
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Below is what I added to the email to Tesco:

If I could add one thing, our router is showing a very high noise
margin of 15db, again this could also be due to the noise we had on
the line before we had the new line installed on Sunday, may be a good
idea to request a reset of the target noise margin to allow the line
to retrain itself back to how it should be, if BT can do this.


You think they will be able to action this? The Tesco guy seemed pretty knowledgeable

Edited by matthewcl375 (Tue 29-Jan-13 13:54:22)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 29-Jan-13 13:58:50
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Well I would know what you mean whether they will is another matter

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Tue 29-Jan-13 14:05:20
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Surely this sort of thing happens to people all the time after line maintenance, ISPs should know about this
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 29-Jan-13 15:35:47
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
My understanding was that it goes SNR Margin -> Sync Speed -> IP Profile -> Throughput, so Im not sure how it came to be that the Sync Speed is 4960 but the SNR Margin is so high?
How Noise margin works.
About abnormally High noise margin.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Tue 29-Jan-13 16:16:21
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the link the website is very useful.

My main question now is this:

if Tesco manage to get my IP Profile back in line with my current sync rate of 4960Kbps does that mean my download speed will be able to rise? Or would I need to wait to get a lower SNR Margin first?
Standard User huwwatkins
(committed) Tue 29-Jan-13 16:26:48
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
IF they reset the IP profile so it comes in to line with your 4960kbps sync then yes your download speed will rise but only to about 4 -5 Mbps

Edited by huwwatkins (Tue 29-Jan-13 16:27:11)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 29-Jan-13 17:11:42
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
The problem is you have more than one issue. It's hard to get your head round all the tech, I know. You haven't a chance in a few days.

Something has stuck the IP Profile. Get that unstuck and if you look up the table for the old IP Profile system you'll see what it should go to.

Once you get to that stage, at least you have something usable.

However, the noise margin I don't expect to change, unless they do a full reset of the line. That is what you could do with really. That would set things back to how they would be if it was a completely new connection.

You seem to be next door to the exchnage. On your connection that should give 8Mbps connection speed, far better than your 4,960kbps. On an ADS2+ connection it would be up around 24Mbps. Which exchange is it?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Tue 29-Jan-13 18:37:12
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
At this stage I'm really counting on them being able to talk to BT and get the IP Profile reset, if they reset the SNR target at same time then great but I can worry about that after.

Oh and our exchange is Faversham Kent

So, it seems my options are

1) Tesco talk to BT and get it reset within 48 hours
2) BT tells Tesco that I have to have had a stable connection for at least 3 days (72 hours) before they can do anything

OR

3) I wait for 3 days for the BT system to automatically reset the profile (which shouldn't take that long I know, but sometimes it does)

Either way looks like im waiting

Edited by matthewcl375 (Tue 29-Jan-13 18:39:45)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 29-Jan-13 18:51:55
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Hmmmm frown !

That exchange is WBC-enabled, i.e. up to 24Mbps connection speed is available from any ISP that wishes to sell it. So either that is another problem on your line, or Tesco via non-LLU C & W just don't. That is quite possible as O2 non-LLU is the same.

What speed estimate did you get when signing up? Have you been conned, or would 8Mbps be acceptable once things are sorted?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User David_W
(experienced) Tue 29-Jan-13 18:52:50
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
Oh and our exchange is Faversham Kent
SamKnows indicates your exchange has 21CN WBC, which means up to 24Mbps (advertised as up to 16Mbps to satisfy the advertising standards people) services should be available over the BT Wholesale network. With the line attenuation you have, you will likely get over 20Mbps on this service assuming you now have a noise free line.

I don't know if Tesco have a policy of bulk migrating people off the old 20CN DSL Max service that you appear to be on, or whether they offer this service at all. If they do, an alternative option may be to give up getting the target noise margin reduced on DSL Max and get yourself migrated to 21CN ADSL2+. Beware that you might be asked to agree to a new contract if you migrate.


I'd be interested in other people's views - do they consider Matthew is better getting his issues sorted out with the service he's on, then trying to migrate, or migrating now and dealing with any issues that remain on 21CN?

Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Tue 29-Jan-13 19:19:55
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
That's interesting, we used to be on a 'Tesco finest' broadband, but then they got rid of all the different packages and now we are on one which supports 'the highest speed your line is capable of'.

All I know is we've never seen higher than 5.6Mbps download speeds, but I'm fine with that, since I am not the rate payer tongue

Still strange, from what I've read we may be on the 'Partial LLU' service, which is where you keep your line with BT (thus keeping your old phone number), does that sound right?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Tue 29-Jan-13 19:23:10)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 29-Jan-13 19:49:56
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
I don't know if Tesco have a policy of bulk migrating people off the old 20CN DSL Max service that you appear to be on, or whether they offer this service at all.
If, as I understand, Tesco BB is provided by C&W and C&W is not LLU at that exchange then OP will always be on ADSL Max with Tesco.

@OP: If this is the case you are not on any sort of LLU.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 29-Jan-13 19:58:23
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Tesco via non-LLU C & W just don't. That is quite possible as O2 non-LLU is the same.
LLU providers at their non-LLU exchanges generally only provide 20CN ADSL Max. Witness O2, AOL, Orange when LLU, Virgin ...

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 29-Jan-13 20:14:16
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Lol - in theory

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 29-Jan-13 20:15:30
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Data looks like BT Wholesale based, distinct proof is the presence of the IP Profile, only provider to use it.

The BT Wholesale is sort of partial LLU - as in it is handled by Openreach in the same manner as other partial LLU services.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User matthewcl375
(newbie) Tue 29-Jan-13 21:21:37
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Yea that makes sense, just hoping BT Openreach aren't going to phone up and say "your line is fine, nothing wrong with it" like I have heard in similar threads.

I'm guessing if Openreach/Tesco find that the IP Profile is stuck, or even the SNR Margin, they would normally forward this on to BTW who could reset them for me?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Tue 29-Jan-13 22:20:59)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 29-Jan-13 22:28:33
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
IP Profile is nothing to do with Openreach

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Tue 29-Jan-13 22:32:22
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
But can't the ISP or Openreach see the current IP Profile and its history from their systems? From the phone call I had it seemed like it could be sorted that way. Maybe they just have to elevate it to BTW if they find the Profile is stuck?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Tue 29-Jan-13 22:33:20)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 29-Jan-13 22:42:27
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
The ISP can, and so can BT Wholesale see ip profile and its history. ISP gets notified of changes in a report called the Delta report.

But on ADSL and ADSL2+ services the IP Profile is nothing to do with Openreach and the same with the target noise margin

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Tue 29-Jan-13 23:17:09
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Ah, its making sense now. Who can actually reset the IP Profile and Target Noise Margin? Can the ISP do that or do they have to request it from BTW?

And what does Openreach do related to all of this? The guy seemed pretty sure it was going to involve Openreach crazy
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 29-Jan-13 23:17:53
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Openreach deal only with physical copper line. They may be able to read the instantaneous figures but that's about all; they can do sweet f.a. about them.

Focus on that your future is in the hands of BTw & the ISP grin

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Tue 29-Jan-13 23:23:52)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 29-Jan-13 23:21:22
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
The guy seemed pretty sure it was going to involve Openreach
They just send out OR in the hope he will find something wrong with your wiring and then they won't have to bother BTw, who control the parameters.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 29-Jan-13 23:30:45
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
The complication that hasn't been made properly clear to you is that Tesco isn't really your ISP. C & W are. Tesco just pulls in the customers and one way or another pay C & W todeliver.

So you ring Tesco who pass it to C & W, who do one of two things:

- don't realise it isn't their LLu and get in a complete dither;
- do realise and with luck pass it on to BT Wholesale.

Just for interest, run www.speedtest.net and see what ISP it says it is.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 29-Jan-13 23:31:59
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Or they're just clueless.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Wed 30-Jan-13 00:29:32
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Thing is, they're not sending anyone out, YET. He suspected it to be the IP Profile, and said he would talk to network team about it, hopefully they will advise against calling out Openreach and will know what the right thing is to do. Otherwise I'm stuck here waiting for the BT system to auto-reset my Profile which could be anywhere from tomorrow to next week (tomorrow will be 3 days since it went wrong, although i have restarted router twice within that time frame)

@RobertoS tried speedtest, it shows Cable and Wireless UK as my ISP and I'm getting 0.13 down, 0.36 up, exactly in line with my current 0.14 IP Profile

Edited by matthewcl375 (Wed 30-Jan-13 00:39:25)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 30-Jan-13 09:24:43
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
If Openreach can see that data then it breaks equivalence rules, as they cannot see data from other providers DSLAM

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 30-Jan-13 11:41:43
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I was talking about the instantaneous figures they can see on their meters, which are the same as the router's ADSL Status, like Syncs, current NMs, Attenuations, which anyone can see, regardless of whose DSLAM it is.

For all I know they may be able to see IP Profiles, as these are "publicly" available thro' BTw Speedtester at the premises.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Wed 30-Jan-13 11:49:43
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
pretty standard to despatch Openreach regardless of the actual symptoms - BT Retail send out Openreach when the issue is PPP negotiation failures, for example. If they call in advance you can save them a trip from the exchange smile

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 30-Jan-13 12:55:04
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
I know for sure BT Wholesale can see the history and current router stats, some type of history view is available to providers, but its not the full set of data I think

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Apprentice
(knowledge is power) Wed 30-Jan-13 14:57:38
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Who can actually reset the IP Profile .....

When you've time have a read through this and the rest of the website.

Alastair

omadasafisho
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 30-Jan-13 15:47:40
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Perhaps I should run a service where I vet requests to send out Openreach engineers £5 for each one, a small price to pay and save Openreach a truck roll smile

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Wed 30-Jan-13 17:17:53
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Here's an update: Just got home from work, IP Profile now UP at 4Mbps laugh

In the BTW test I got 4.2Mbps Downstream and apparently the 'Max Achievable Speed' for my line is now 7.15Mbps. Router stats have not changed, noise margin is the same.

I assume the only thing left to happen now on my line is for the SNR Margin to fall back to 6Db (or wherever it was before the engineer came out), and then for the Sync speed to rise in accordance with that, and finally for the IP Profile to go up to its highest which would be somewhere around 7-8Mbps.

Does this sound right to you folks?
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 30-Jan-13 17:47:18
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by David_W:
I don't know if Tesco have a policy of bulk migrating people off the old 20CN DSL Max service that you appear to be on, or whether they offer this service at all. If they do, an alternative option may be to give up getting the target noise margin reduced on DSL Max and get yourself migrated to 21CN ADSL2+. Beware that you might be asked to agree to a new contract if you migrate.


OP going to 21CN WBC would be a good move for sure smile
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Wed 30-Jan-13 17:52:56
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
sounds about right, assuming that " 'Max Achievable Speed' for my line is now 7.15Mbps" is just the thing off the BT speedtest that tells you the max product speed

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Wed 30-Jan-13 18:10:18
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
That's correct and that's the kind of speeds I'm hoping to achieve once the SNR Margin shifts.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 30-Jan-13 18:30:55
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
If this was my line then I'd do the following

1. Keep an eye on the SNR margin for a day or so
2. When its nice and high and its daylight probably once a week I would reboot router just to make sure that if the remote system has lowered my target noise margin that it is not waiting for the modem to resync and pick up the new settings.

A reboot every 3 or 4 days if the modem is otherwise stable will not be interpreted as a problem, on the old max services it should take around 10 reboots in a hour for it to think some thing is wrong.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Wed 30-Jan-13 20:42:42
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
@MrSaffron That sounds like a good idea. Just been on phone to Tesco and they are saying 15db is a 'pretty standard noise margin' for our line, they also said they can't reset it unless we have a problem, as setting the noise target too low could cause our signal to drop out of sync.

Any thoughts on this?
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Wed 30-Jan-13 21:02:04
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
6 dB is the standard SNR margin. 15 results from high degree of instability, if they reset it to 6 and it i unstable it will step itself back up again 6 - 9 - 12 - 15

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Wed 30-Jan-13 21:06:32
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Yeah my thoughts exactly. Which means we will just have to wait for SNR to gradually step back up over the next few weeks
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 30-Jan-13 21:29:02
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Why did you join them, how much do you pay, does that include line rental and a call package, and how long are you tied in for? You are seeing why they are so (probably) cheap.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Wed 30-Jan-13 22:35:06
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I don't pay for our broadband so I think the main reason we joined was the price they offered, not sure how long the contract is for but wouldn't this wait for the SNR margin to go down be the same regardless of which ISP you use?

Matt
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 30-Jan-13 22:47:57
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
No. A good ISP would have the line reset, which sets it all back to defaults, (as when it was first connected), and starts a new (initial) 10-day period.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Wed 30-Jan-13 23:04:03
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Well, maybe they would... if I were more firm etc. the thing is I don't have the final say in what gets done as I don't pay for the broadband here... but if it was down to me I would push for them to do a DLM reset. And as soon as I end up paying for my own broadband connection I will definitely be using one of these "good ISPs" that will do this off the bat.
Standard User burakkucat
(experienced) Wed 30-Jan-13 23:31:04
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
O.k., Matthew. If you are still about and you read this, my advice is to:

(1) Power off the modem/router and unplug it from the incoming telephone line.
(2) Go to bed or do something that does not involve a working Broadband connection.
(3) At around 1130 hours tomorrow, reconnect the modem/router to the telephone line.
(4) Power it on and allow it to do its own thing. (Synchronise with the DSLAM, establish a PPPoA session, etc.)

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Fri 01-Feb-13 12:51:01
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
Sorry I haven't been on this thread lately, I've had a couple of minor router problems as of late:

1. on wednesday evening I was playing an online game and the internet suddenly dropped out. Thursday morning a restart of the router did nothing, I had to go onto the 'Internet' page of the router GUI and click 'Connect'.

2. This morning someone else in my family couldn't access the internet, from what I heard all the lights on the router were on but they couldn't get to any page.

NOTE: on both of these occasions the DSLdid not drop out once. On the first occasion the internet on the router said disconnected could not bring up a link. But there are no DSL errors whatsoever.

Also when I logged onto the router this morning, it has re-synced to 5184Mbps, so if this router stays connected for another 3 days max, we could be put up into the next IP Profile.

What do you all think about these 2 small problems? Should I be that worried about them or are they to be expected?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Fri 01-Feb-13 12:53:41)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 01-Feb-13 12:59:59
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
We need to see the stats smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User burakkucat
(experienced) Fri 01-Feb-13 13:54:27
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
NOTE: on both of these occasions the DSLdid not drop out once. On the first occasion the internet on the router said disconnected could not bring up a link. But there are no DSL errors whatsoever.
What you have seen is the loss of the PPPoA session with your ISP. Possibly that session loss was eventually noticed at the exchange end -- in the ISP's equipment -- and a re-sync was invoked as a 'sure-fire' way of getting your modem/router to re-initiate both processes.

As Bob (RobertoS) has said, let's see the current statistics from the modem/router, please.

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Fri 01-Feb-13 14:07:09
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Stats below as of 14:06 today:


Link Information

Uptime: 0 days, 5:59:45

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.1

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 5.184

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 14,48 / 328,05

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11,9 / 13,8

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,0 / 6,0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 23,0 / 15,3

System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----

Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / ALCB

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / -

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / -

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / -

Loss of Link (Remote): -

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / -

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0

HEC Errors (Up/Down): - / 0 / 0

And @burakkucat, any ideas why the PPPOA session may have been disconnected?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Fri 01-Feb-13 14:08:41)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 01-Feb-13 14:15:29
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
That's odd, but the fact that all the errors are zero implies to me a reset at the exchange caused the overnight re-sync. Strange that they are still completely zero - that must be down to the low speed against what it could achieve.

The noise margin hasn't dropped any though. If it does it automatically it does so in 3dB steps. Unless it connected at 12dB overnight and the margin has risen that much.

Does the router log record sync-time values? Some do.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Fri 01-Feb-13 16:35:01
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Well the event log has cleared itself crazy but earlier there was just an event showing the DSL line had came up with a sync rate of 5184Mbps and a noise margin of around 15.3db
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 01-Feb-13 17:15:17
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
That's what we needed to check - still the 15dB setting frown.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Fri 01-Feb-13 18:02:00
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
It's now 14.7 tongue
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Fri 01-Feb-13 18:04:10
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
It's now 14.7 tongue


getting dark

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Fri 01-Feb-13 18:08:56
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Thought it was meant to rise as it gets dark?

UPDATE: Noise Margin now 13.8

Edited by matthewcl375 (Fri 01-Feb-13 18:37:32)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 01-Feb-13 19:02:37
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Noise margin falls outside daylight hours. Keep an eye on what happens to yours, as the minimum value would be very useful to know.

I forget what router you have - there is a program that can log it every few seconds for you, ready set up for many common ones. It's RouterStats Lite - scroll down the page to it.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 01-Feb-13 19:04:04)

Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Fri 01-Feb-13 20:18:14
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Yeah, I have router stats running regularly. And turns out the 'problem' from this morning was simply my dad having accidentally switched off the wifi on his laptop -_- he just rebooted router its now resynced lower at 4704Kbps, and noise margin has gone up to 15.6, I'm guessing because he rebooted it during the evening its been detecting more noise etc?

Also, is there a way of finding out how much your Noise Margin affects your Sync rate? Like with IP Profiles, where you can see what speed each profile will give you.

Thanks

Edited by matthewcl375 (Fri 01-Feb-13 20:21:08)

Standard User burakkucat
(experienced) Fri 01-Feb-13 20:33:26
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
And @burakkucat, any ideas why the PPPOA session may have been disconnected?
No, sorry. We'll just have to put it down to 'one of life's little mysteries'. frown

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Fri 01-Feb-13 21:13:27
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
Also does anyone have any idea why my SNR Margin has gone back up even higher to 15.6 now? There is no noise on the line whatsoever. The only electrical equipment near the router is the phone and the TV/freeview box crazy

I thought it was supposed to go down in evening?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 01-Feb-13 21:47:37
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Why did he reboot it? If he's doing that a lot we may have found the problem.

As you can see from RouterStats the margin varies a bit anyway on its way up and down over 24 hours. Often very stable during daylight. There could just have been a bit of noise around, (anywhere between you and the exchange), at the time so if that's gine 15.6dB is fair enough. Are you logging to file, as well as the graphs? I prefer the logs for diagnosis.

I also used to use a 5-second sampling interval. The default can even miss or hardly identify a loss of connection.

The difference at sync time caused by a 3B change is usually roughly 500-750kbps on ADSL and 700-1200kbps on ADSL2+.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Fri 01-Feb-13 21:53:34
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
He just didn't think of checking the laptop first I think, but I have told him that rebooting the router is now a last resort tongue

Yeah, I agree if the noise margin goes up or down by a couple of decimal points its probably nothing to worry about, and hopefully in time (within 14 days) the DLM should reset my noise margin back to wherever it should be now that the line is free of noise.

I log to both, but its not left on all the time, is there a similar program for Mac? (I use Windows and Mac around 90:10 respectively)
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 01-Feb-13 21:56:13
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Not that I know of.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Sat 02-Feb-13 13:51:22
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Due to the poor sync rate that we got due to my dad resetting the router at 7PM, I decided to restart it just now 1:30PM to try and achieve a better rate.

I am now on the even lower rate of 4672Kbps with an SNR margin fluctuating between 15.7 and 15.8

Does anyone have any idea how this could happen and what I should do about it? The reason I restarted it was becau I thought that left by itself the sync rate wouldn't change, and that it needs a reboot to do this. Is this correct?

Thanks

Edited by matthewcl375 (Sat 02-Feb-13 15:17:14)

Standard User David_W
(experienced) Sat 02-Feb-13 15:38:44
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Stop restarting the router - the more you restart it, the more you will convince the DLM that the line is unstable.

As you have previously been advised, you really need to get the ISP to reset the target noise margin to the default and let the line retrain. If you are, as we suspect, on the old 20CN DSL Max system, you will find it takes somewhere between a long time and never to lose the excessive noise margin (and possibly unnecessary interleaving) without that reset.

It is true that an ADSL line can only retrain to take advantage of a decreased target noise margin by resynchronising, but it's best to leave it several days between resets, then reset it only once. It is also possible that a resync will be forced by the DSLAM if the target noise margin improves - I can't remember the 20CN behaviour as it's so long since I've been on that system (I've had nearly 2 years on 21CN WBC ADSL2+, and nearly a month on FTTC).

Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Sat 02-Feb-13 16:07:55
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
Unfortunately as I said arranging a DLM reset with the ISP isn't an option at the moment.

Well the line's almost completely stable right now, sure the sync rate is lower than it should be but the SNR Margin isn't fluctuating any more than 1 decimal point up and down, so the DLM should see this as a stable line eventually. 4Mbps is fine for us right now, not having any dropouts etc.

The small changes in sync rate I have described have not affected our download speeds at all thanks to the IP Profile sticking at 4Mbps.

What I may do is do a 9AM reboot in 2 or 3 days time to see if I can get the sync rate up to 5120+ Kbps to get us into the 4.5Mbps Profile. Apart from that I see no other option apart from waiting for the DLM 14 day period. Reboots aren't going to help unless I can get the sync rate up to 5120Kbps anyway, I'm still gonna be stuck in the 4Mbps Profile.
Standard User Apprentice
(knowledge is power) Sat 02-Feb-13 16:12:19
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
I can't remember the 20CN behaviour .....

You still have to have a lot of patience ........ and failing an improvement after a week, then as you say the OP has to get the ISP to reset the noise margin back to the default number of dBs.

Probably best to ask to get the reset done ASAP than to wait a week in hope laugh

Alastair

omadasafisho
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Sat 02-Feb-13 16:34:53
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: Apprentice] [link to this post]
 
Isn't it 14 days before the SNR Target updates?
Standard User David_W
(experienced) Sat 02-Feb-13 16:41:52
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
It could be somewhere around a fortnight. I'd attempt to leave the router at least two weeks before rebooting it again, then see what happens. Every time you reboot, you may be resetting the timer on DLM dropping your target noise margin.

Some fluctuation in the noise margin is normal on DSL - that, by itself, is not a fault, nor is it likely be the main metric used by DLM. So long as the noise margin remains positive at all times, the line theoretically should stay in sync - though the lower the noise margin gets, the lower the margin against errors and a possible loss of sync.

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 02-Feb-13 17:44:49
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
Isn't it 14 days before the SNR Target updates?
It varies between 10 and 14. If it does it at all. It's after 14 or so you need to get onto the ISP or you just stay there.

Don't go by time of day to choose when to reboot. Check in RouterStats for a good steady high margin of the 24-hour variation. That might be 9am, 10am, 1400 or whatever. The higher the margin in relation to the sync-time setting of 15dB, the more chance there is of a highish sync, because it means the background noise is at a low point.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Sat 02-Feb-13 18:19:55
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
See, this is what confuses me. You say its best to reboot when the SNR Margin is high, yet I thought a low margin gives a higher sync rate?
Standard User David_W
(experienced) Sat 02-Feb-13 18:54:00
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Assume a static sync speed - which will be the case on ADSL (rather than the later variants, where it can change). Over the day, the noise margin naturally fluctuates a little for that given sync speed.

When the router synchronises at reboot, it does so to a target noise margin. At a time of the day where the noise margin is usually the highest, you will get the highest possible sync speed for the target noise margin - the fluctuations should happen downwards from there.

Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Sat 02-Feb-13 19:02:14
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
Ok, so right now my Noise Margin is 16.6db. So you are saying it would be a good idea to reboot when its high. But if I was to restart now (its evening) I would get a lower Sync rate crazy
Standard User David_W
(experienced) Sat 02-Feb-13 19:20:53
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Rebooting when your noise margin is lowest will get you a lower sync rate, yes.

Please try to avoid any more reboots for the next two weeks. There's only two ways to get the target noise margin reduced to reflect the repaired line - ring the ISP (which you're not prepared to do) or wait and hope. Every reboot may reset the clock on waiting or convince DLM your line is not stable - so as you're not prepared to ring the ISP, the next best thing is not to reboot the router for at least two weeks.

I can only encourage you to ring the ISP - as waiting and hoping may not produce the desired result. However, it's your choice.

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 02-Feb-13 19:48:31
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
Conversely with LLU I find it better to resync at night when the margin is at it's lowest (5.5dB) and then I get a slightly larger daytime margin (6.5dB as opposed to 6dB) and slightly lower sync speed (~13000K as opposed to ~13500K) which proves to be more stable.

That's ADSL2+ with a 36.5dB downstream attenuation though smile
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Sat 02-Feb-13 19:51:20
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Well so far the margin for me seems to be higher in the evenings, but then from other people I've heard it is meant to get lower crazy
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Sat 02-Feb-13 19:51:58
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
I thought it was supposed to go down in evening?
It often does, as there is better propagation of continental AM radio stations etc adding to the noise. Conversely the lower temp may affect the attenuation positively but lots of electrical kit in the house and neighbours adds noise too - so it's a gamble really which way it'll go.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 02-Feb-13 20:00:19
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
Well so far the margin for me seems to be higher in the evenings, but then from other people I've heard it is meant to get lower crazy


The SNRM (both with ADSL MAX and ADSL2+) has always got lower for me at night probably because there is more noise affecting the line and hence less margin or "buffer".
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Sat 02-Feb-13 20:07:38
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Right, so the fact that mine goes up in the evening suggests that there is less interference and so more 'buffer' room showing that my connection is stable? (trying to get my head around whether an increased SNR Margin is a good or bad thing)

Edited by matthewcl375 (Sat 02-Feb-13 20:08:41)

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 02-Feb-13 20:12:06
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats.htm - "~ What is SNR Margin?" smile
Standard User matthewcl375
(learned) Sat 02-Feb-13 20:25:47
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
It's a good guide but I've read through it about 5 times now and it still doesn't make sense, I am just looking for an explanation of whether a rise in SNR Margin is good/bad i.e. does it signify that there is more or less noise on the line?
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 02-Feb-13 20:37:06
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
It's a good guide but I've read through it about 5 times now and it still doesn't make sense, I am just looking for an explanation of whether a rise in SNR Margin is good/bad i.e. does it signify that there is more or less noise on the line?


OK - here's an extreme example: RouterStatsLite running displaying a steady 9dB SNRM, then a sudden burst of noise on the line, the SNRM drops to zero dB and the ADSL connection is dropped - a very unstable situation caused by an intermittent line fault.
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Sat 02-Feb-13 20:44:09
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
So if we took your example a step further, when the ADSL comes back up (if it ever does) the router will be showing a higher SNR Margin than before, to provide a buffer in case the SNR drops again?
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 02-Feb-13 21:08:02
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
The router resync'd almost immediately after the very short burst of noise back to a 9dB SNRM at the same sync rate - that was an ADSL MAX connection.

The sync time SNRM is the key and how much it fluctuates over time whilst the ADSL connection is continuously up. For maximum stability a sync time margin is set that allows for noise events, without dropping the connection and allowing the best possible corresponding sync speed. My example was an extreme noise event with a multitude of errors where there was not enough margin to cope.
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Sat 02-Feb-13 21:42:29
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
What I've gathered so far is that me having a SNR Margin of 16.6db means that my connection is very stable, but from looking at router stats the SNR Margin could be lower and I would still be getting a stable link.

How would I work out what my SNR Target as set by the DLM is right now?

P.s. This guide makes a lot more sense

Edited by matthewcl375 (Sat 02-Feb-13 21:54:50)

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 02-Feb-13 21:56:54
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
What I've gathered so far is that me having a SNR Margin of 16.6db means that my connection is very stable, but from looking at router stats the SNR Margin could be lower and I would still be getting a stable link.

How would I work out what my SNR Target as set by the DLM is right now?


Historically your line has probably been unstable...

Personally I wouldn't mess about with ADSL MAX if 21CN WBC (ADSL2+) is available at the exchange. Partial LLU could be even better although that's probably over the boss's budget smile
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Sat 02-Feb-13 22:10:36
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Correct, last friday-saturday we had so much noise that we couldn't hear callers on the phone crazy A new line was then installed by BT on sunday, but by then we had lost DSL sync so many times in the previous few days that I can only assume the SNR Margin was jacked right up to allow for any future problems, bringing our throughput down by about half from 8Mbps to where it is now...

And I would upgrade to ADSL2+ if I was in charge tongue

Edited by matthewcl375 (Sat 02-Feb-13 22:11:55)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 02-Feb-13 22:42:35
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
P.s. This guide makes a lot more sense
smile
But did you click the link at the bottom of that page, to "High Noise margin"?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Sat 02-Feb-13 23:35:18
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Just read it now laugh So it seems that my problem would be the one described on the site under 4 "The more awkward cause".

Just had a thought, on the site it says that sometimes the SNR Margin Target increase is set by a BT engineer rather than the DLM. Could this have happened in my case or is it more likely to have been an automatic thing considering the amount of noise and disconnections on my line prior to the repair?

Thanks
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 03-Feb-13 00:05:01
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Hard to say. It would only be set by an engineer in response to a fault report where he couldn't find, or couldn't be bothered to find, or hadn't got the time to find the cause. Before the visit which resulted in the repair. They wouldn't repair and set high at the same time.

Setting it high gives the stability. Job done as far as Openreach and BT Wholesale are concerned. Their priorities are not always the same as the end user's frown.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Sun 03-Feb-13 01:25:22
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Ah, looks like a DLM job then, since the BT guy found the cause of the fault instantly when he got here smile

When I last synced, I got 15.6Kbps, it's now nearly 2AM and I'm up to 16.6, but from what I've read from the site I linked to above, it says this is a good thing, as it shows that my SNR has improved (gone up) since I have been connected, which shows I could get higher speeds if it wasn't for the SNR margin, does that sound right?

Also if the DLM notices an upward variation in the noise margin this would not affect how it calculates the target in a negative way I hope?

Sorry, another thing. On the robertos website it says that the stats on the router for SNR Margin are just showing how things have changed since a sync was last made. Does this mean that the SNR Margin stats on the router are not actually showing the current SNR Margin?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Sun 03-Feb-13 01:39:25)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 03-Feb-13 01:44:09
Print Post

Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
When I last synced, I got 15.6Kbps
You talking about NM? It's measured in dB.

The router stats are the current instantaneous stats.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Sun 03-Feb-13 01:53:19
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Re: Slow internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Lol sorry it's late here :/ yes I did mean db, I'm struggling to see how an increased noise margin can have a positive effect on my sync rate if I rebooted.

I can understand how a higher SNR is better but surely a higher SNR Margin just means that the router is basing my sync speed on my connection SNR minus 16.6db, which can only be worse than if the SNR Margin was lower, say 15db crazy

BTW this is what I have gathered from the robertos website, so please correct me if I'm wrong tongue
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 03-Feb-13 02:13:36
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Remember, the Noise Margin is just a buffer against the noise rising.
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
surely a higher SNR Margin just means that the router is basing my sync speed on my connection SNR minus 16.6db
No, your current sync speed was set "once-and-for-all" whenever you last re-synced with exchange in line with your Target NM of 15 dB (we assume); it is not set continuously.

So at the moment when you took those stats, you had a further 1.6 dB NM "to spare" whilst your sync speed is still the value chosen when the Target NM was 15 dB. So chances are that if you were to re-sync at that moment it would choose a higher sync speed when it reduces the NM, by 1.6 dB to the Target of 15db.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Sun 03-Feb-13 03:04:20
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
That makes sense, when I last resynced I got 15.6db is it normal for the router to give 0.6db more than the target?

Also how would rebooting at 16.6db give any higher sync speed? Surely it's still going to reboot with the target SNR 15db, the same as it did before?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Sun 03-Feb-13 03:07:33)

Standard User David_W
(experienced) Sun 03-Feb-13 03:30:45
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
If the router syncs to a target noise margin of 15dB and the noise margin increases by 1dB, your noise margin is 16dB.

If the router syncs to a target noise margin of 15dB and the noise margin worsens by 1dB, your noise margin is 14dB.


Noise margin can be thought of as wasted sync speed - though you need some noise margin to keep the line from falling over or suffering from excessive errors. Because you had a line fault, your target noise margin has been jacked up to 15dB - a stable line will happily cope with a target noise margin of 6dB, which means you're wasting 9dB if your line is now stable.

The target is applied instantaneously at resynchronisation, so resynchronising when the noise margin is typically at its maximum will use a little more of the potential noise margin as sync speed. If you think of the typical noise margin as a graph against time, you're taking the figure at that point and defining it as the target, sliding the entire plot hopefully towards the x-axis (as you expect the fluctuations to be mainly downwards). Remember - on the same DSL line, the lower the noise margin, the higher the achievable sync speed.

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 03-Feb-13 05:44:22
Print Post

Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
is it normal for the router to give 0.6db more than the target?
It's normal for the NM to fluctuate due to noise variation. With a steady signal, as the noise increases or decreases the NM correspondingly decreases or increases.

When you re-sync, the current NM is ancient history, but the decreased noise that gave rise to the increase in NM is probably still present for the short period it takes to reboot and with less noise it should be able to re-sync faster at the 15 dB Target NM.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 03-Feb-13 14:37:43
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
These small fluctuations in SNRM that you are seeing are pretty insignificant - essentially your connection is grossly under performing - even with a downstream ADSL MAX attenuation of 35dB and 12dB SNRM I was syncing at 8064Kbps with an IP of 7000Kbps.

Are you sure that your downstream attenuation is actually 6dB?
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Sun 03-Feb-13 17:13:40
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
@David_W that's really confusing, because people are saying reboot when the SNRM is highest as this shows less noise on the line, but you say "remember - on the same DSL line, the lower the noise margin, the higher the achievable sync speed. "
Surely if the SNRM is higher then it will give faster sync speed as there is less noise? And conversely, the lower it is, the more noise is being detected on the line, which would result in a lower sync speed?

@XRaySpeX so what role does the target SNRM play here? Let's say my SNRM fell to 14.4db and I rebooted the router. The router would still reboot at 15+db, in line with the target noise margin right?

and @4M2 yes my attenuation is 6db, we are a street away from the exchange, the problem is due to a fault that we had about a week ago with noise on the line
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 03-Feb-13 17:35:43
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
and @4M2 yes my attenuation is 6db, we are a street away from the exchange, the problem is due to a fault that we had about a week ago with noise on the line


Would it be possible to try a different router and perhaps confirm the downstream attenuation if there is no change to your downstream SNRM and sync speed after several more days?
Standard User David_W
(experienced) Sun 03-Feb-13 17:37:22
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
@David_W that's really confusing, because people are saying reboot when the SNRM is highest as this shows less noise on the line, but you say "remember - on the same DSL line, the lower the noise margin, the higher the achievable sync speed. "
Surely if the SNRM is higher then it will give faster sync speed as there is less noise? And conversely, the lower it is, the more noise is being detected on the line, which would result in a lower sync speed?
The line is capable of a particular signal to noise ratio at any time - the more noise, the lower the signal to noise ratio.

The available signal to noise ratio is either in use to provide sync speed, or is spare as noise margin.

Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Sun 03-Feb-13 17:51:24
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
@4M2 well so far its only been 7 days since the repair work was done, and over that time I have rebooted the router about 3 maybe 4 times, I've heard it takes 10-14 days of 'stable' connection for the target to be reset by BT

OK I think I get it, if I were to reboot say when my SNR Margin is 16.6db like it is now, the decreased noise on the line that is causing that high SNRM will give me a higher Signal to Noise ratio at sync, which my target SNRM of 15db will then be applied to, resulting in a higher SNR and a hopefully faster sync speed.

Guys, does that sound about right? Only thing left to understand is how @David_W says that rebooting at a lower SNRM can improve sync speed too crazy

Edited by matthewcl375 (Sun 03-Feb-13 17:54:19)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 03-Feb-13 18:19:42
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
You're getting close, very close in fact smile.

You are slightly mis-reading David's post, because of your remaining bit of confusion, and that mis-reading increases your confusion.

Have another read of my main Noise margin page.

In short, you sort of explained it correctly a few minutes ago. Say there is a Signal to Noise Ratio of 40dB at the time you connect. That 40dB is the most important figure. Your sync-time margin is then used together with that to choose a speed.

If the real noise goes down, the SNR goes up and so does the reported SNRM at the same time. It therefore follows that if your SNRM has risen from 15dB to 17dB that the real noise has fallen and that the SNR has risen.

By doing a re-sync at such a time, because the real noise is less than the previous time, the sync speed will be higher, as that higher SNR is used with the 15dB figure to decide the speed.

The "gotcha" in that is if the noise margin is varying quite a lot at the time. You may catch a bad level of real noise instead of a good one. The higher SNRM on RouterStats needs to be looking stable. By that, I mean over several minutes with no real spikiness.

Does that help?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Sun 03-Feb-13 18:48:15
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
@RobertoS makes perfect sense laugh and yea my routerstats is showing a perfectly stable SNRM of 16.6db right now, there has never been any spikiness with my connection apart from obviously when we had the line fault last week, but still I'm not going to restart it as it needs time to show the DLM that its stable. I just like to know what exactly the line is up to tongue

What did David mean by restarting at a lower SNRM to get a higher sync speed?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 03-Feb-13 18:58:18
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
I don't think he did. Give me the link to the post, to make sure he and I are looking at what is worrying yu.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Sun 03-Feb-13 19:06:16
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Here, the last line or so of it
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 03-Feb-13 19:14:12
Print Post

Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
What did David mean by restarting at a lower SNRM to get a higher sync speed?
I think you are referring to this:
In reply to a post by David_W:
Remember - on the same DSL line, the lower the noise margin, the higher the achievable sync speed.
He's not saying anything about restarting when you see a low NM but that when you have a lower NM after restarting you should get a faster speed.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Sun 03-Feb-13 19:25:02
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
You mean like, if the Target Noise Margin gets moved down and I restart and see a lower margin, then I will get a faster sync?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 03-Feb-13 21:38:56
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
You are getting deeper and deeper into the mire, when we try to explain what David is trying to say.

Basically he agrees with everything I have told you, but in trying to explain it using a sort of analogy he is blowing your mind. Just forget trying to make sense of that bit of his post. Even I have trouble with it, though what he is getting at is the same as I'm saying.

Go back to what you understood from me before you asked that question smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 03-Feb-13 21:39:14)

Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Sun 03-Feb-13 23:14:45
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Right, so all I need to know is that re-syncing when the noise is low (i.e. when the SNRM is higher) will give me the fastest sync I can get with my current target noise margin, but it's a better idea not to reboot to allow the DLM to detect a stable line so it can return the target noise margin to wherever it should be

Resetting my mind to before i asked that question... done tongue
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 03-Feb-13 23:40:32
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Yes smile !

And so to bed ....

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Tue 05-Feb-13 01:16:06
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
On a slightly off topic note, I was uploading a youtube video just now and whilst it was uploading my ping increased and my download speed dropped by about 3Mbps crazy After the upload my speed returned to 3.99Mbps and my ping to normal

Does anyone know why this may have happened?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Tue 05-Feb-13 01:19:00)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 05-Feb-13 08:22:26
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Downloading requires frequent uploaded ACKnowledgement packets. Uploading requires frequent download ones.

Your upload throughput capacity is very slow - the ADSL system was not designed for high volumes of upload. YouTube didn't exist. An upload on ADSL will almost saturate your line to the exchange, although there is now plenty of capacity from thereon, so the ACK packets for your download struggle to get sent. Therefore the download pauses or stutters.

Similarly, it seems you may have been doing a long download, not just a speed test. So the ACKs for the upload would be delayed.

As for pings - two/three factors. Mainly that a ping and its response are just packets of data like any other. So they are in the fight both down and up as well. Not only that, but routers regard ping requests as very low priority items - they don't do the primary function of the system - to pass real data to and from you. So when they are busy they just ignore the request.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Tue 05-Feb-13 16:36:52
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Thanks, that makes sense.

I am getting occassional drops in download speed when other people are using the internet (normally about 2 or 3 users maximum in our house) is this normal? For example just now I ran a speed test and got 1-2Mbps whereas when its just me using it its normally 4Mbps.

Is this anything to worry about?
Standard User David_W
(experienced) Tue 05-Feb-13 16:45:49
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
That's normal. Any speed test shows the available capacity. If the connection is in use, you will only see the available capacity, not the full capacity of the line.

Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Tue 05-Feb-13 17:09:56
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
Seems legit tongue

Out of interest how long do you guys think I should leave it for the DLM to lower my Target SNR Margin?

The problem was fixed on 27/01/2013 since then I probably have restarted the router 3-4 times (only one time per day maximum though) but since Saturday (2nd February) I have left it alone, and am planning on leaving it alone for 10-14 days (unless something major goes wrong)

Edited by matthewcl375 (Tue 05-Feb-13 18:35:15)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 05-Feb-13 18:40:57
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
10-14 is the answer, for a 3dB drop, then another 10-14, and so on. That's if it believes the line is not getting too many errors.

Occasionally the system can fail, so after say 16 days it could be worth the hassle of trying to explain to support that you need the line retraining.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Tue 05-Feb-13 18:43:32
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Would that be 10-14 days since the day the problem was fixed, or would me rebooting it 3 or so times since then 'reset' the waiting period?

P.S. my line has shown no errors since it was repaired
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 05-Feb-13 19:00:47
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
No-one really knows, so for the purpose of deciding whether or not it isn't going to happen it would have to be from the latest re-boot.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Tue 05-Feb-13 22:13:20
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Right, would you (or anyone else here) say that it is normal to get high pings occasionally when other people are sharing your internet connection (for example, over wifi)?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 05-Feb-13 22:39:15
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Yes.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Tue 05-Feb-13 23:15:19
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I mean right now, I'm the only one using the internet and I've got a couple of pages open, a Skype call (no video) on the go, and my ping still seems quite high crazy
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 05-Feb-13 23:19:59
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
What do you call high?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Tue 05-Feb-13 23:24:30
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Well for example when I normally ping Google I get a reply within 28ms, but right now that is going up to 64 sometimes even 100.

In my latest test I got:

1st ping. 53ms
2nd ping. 42ms
3rd ping. 30ms
4th ping. 64ms

Edited by matthewcl375 (Tue 05-Feb-13 23:28:32)

Standard User David_W
(experienced) Wed 06-Feb-13 01:11:31
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
That looks normal to me. Having some of the bandwidth in use means that one or both legs of the ping are delayed until there's room on the connection to carry it.

You can see the same effect on this BQM graph of my Zen FTTC connection. At around 1630, the connection was in use to download three DVD ISOs from servers fast enough to saturate my 74Mbps downstream bandwidth.

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 06-Feb-13 01:22:20
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Quite normal!

While dormant:
Pinging google.com [173.194.34.137] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 173.194.34.137: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=54
Reply from 173.194.34.137: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=54
Reply from 173.194.34.137: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=54
Reply from 173.194.34.137: bytes=32 time=10ms TTL=54

Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 10ms, Maximum = 11ms, Average = 10ms
While TBB Speedtest downloads:
Pinging google.com [173.194.34.137] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 173.194.34.137: bytes=32 time=225ms TTL=54
Reply from 173.194.34.137: bytes=32 time=264ms TTL=54
Reply from 173.194.34.137: bytes=32 time=242ms TTL=54
Reply from 173.194.34.137: bytes=32 time=275ms TTL=54

Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 225ms, Maximum = 275ms, Average = 251ms
While TBB Speedtest uploads:
Pinging google.com [173.194.34.137] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 173.194.34.137: bytes=32 time=89ms TTL=54
Reply from 173.194.34.137: bytes=32 time=100ms TTL=54
Reply from 173.194.34.137: bytes=32 time=113ms TTL=54
Reply from 173.194.34.137: bytes=32 time=130ms TTL=54

Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 89ms, Maximum = 130ms, Average = 108ms


1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Wed 06-Feb-13 01:40:23
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Thanks guys, it's easy to get a bit paranoid about these things, you were right as soon as I finished the Skype call ping times and the speed test went back to normal.

Must say looking at your stats/profiles I'm feeling some 'broadband envy' tongue
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Sun 10-Feb-13 03:54:59
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Everything's been going well last few days, my DSL has stayed up with no hiccups, and I could say the same for my Internet except just now I noticed the following in the event logs of my router:

Feb 10 03:16:40 PPP link up (Internet) [90.246.63.123]
Feb 10 03:16:40 PPP CHAP Chap receive success : authentication ok
Feb 10 03:16:24 PPP CHAP Receive challenge (rhost = ESR2.Ilford5)
Feb 10 03:16:08 PPP CHAP authentication failed (Internet)
Feb 10 03:16:08 PPP CHAP Receive challenge (rhost = ESR2.Ilford5)
Feb 10 03:15:51 PPP CHAP authentication failed (Internet)
Feb 10 03:15:51 PPP CHAP Receive challenge (rhost = ESR2.Ilford5)
Feb 10 03:15:34 PPP CHAP authentication failed (Internet)
Feb 10 03:15:34 PPP CHAP Receive challenge (rhost = ESR2.Ilford5)
Feb 10 03:15:18 PPP CHAP authentication failed (Internet)
Feb 10 03:15:18 PPP CHAP Receive challenge (rhost = ESR2.Ilford5)
Feb 10 03:15:02 PPP CHAP authentication failed (Internet)
Feb 10 03:15:02 PPP CHAP Receive challenge (rhost = ESR2.Ilford5)
Feb 10 03:14:43 FIREWALL event (1 of 1): modified rules
Feb 10 03:14:43 FIREWALL event (1 of 1): created rules
Feb 10 03:14:42 PPP link down (Internet) [90.246.162.188]

Is this anything to worry about? I was thinking, doesn't the internet connection have to reset itself to get a new IP address sometimes?

Also, wil this reset my SNR Reset waiting period at all?

Thanks

Edited by matthewcl375 (Sun 10-Feb-13 04:02:19)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 10-Feb-13 10:54:06
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Your sync stayed up but it took about 1,5 min to authenticate with ISP. You may or may not be allocated a new IP addy. These things happen occasionally; nowt to worry about, This should have no effect on your DLM profile.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Sun 10-Feb-13 14:25:54
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Yeah I have been assigned a new IP by the ISP, anyway am I right in thinking, if its an occasional PPP dropout then it's most likely happening between the exchange and my ISP?
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 10-Feb-13 14:30:51
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
No, I reckon it's at your ISP's Authentication Server.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Sun 10-Feb-13 16:24:01
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
So, in other words, it's not a line fault at the local loop level. Weird thing is, as far as I can tell, there has been no loss of service or planned maintenance at the exchange lately crazy

Edited by matthewcl375 (Sun 10-Feb-13 16:35:20)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 10-Feb-13 18:12:37
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
It never happened at the exchange or on any phone wiring; it was at some remote server of the ISP's.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Mon 11-Feb-13 15:07:42
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Ah right, that's good then.

Well, its nearly been 10 days since I last rebooted the router, think I'm gonna wait till 14 days has passed for the SNR Margin to reset itself. Does the DLM normally resync the router itself, or does it require a manual reboot on the 14th day?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 11-Feb-13 15:25:43
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
When the DLM changes the sync-time margin it normally causes an automatic re-sync.

If it happens at night, then I'd wait a couple of days and then do a daylight manual re-sync.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Mon 11-Feb-13 17:18:17
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Thanks, and is it normal for the Target SNR Margin to reset itself or is it more likely that it will remain as it is until the ISP intervenes?

Just trying to get other people's experiences when this has happened to them

My stats (note the lack of errors):

Uptime: 9 days, 4:03:53
DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.1
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 4.672
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [GB/GB]: 1,99 / 1,06
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11,9 / 13,8
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,0 / 6,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 23,0 / 16,6
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / ALCB
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / -
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / -
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / -
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / -
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
HEC Errors (Up/Down): - / 0 / 0

Edited by matthewcl375 (Mon 11-Feb-13 17:33:16)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 11-Feb-13 17:40:09
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Looking good with those figures.

Re your question, I think I referred you to this page a while ago, and you picked up on Cause 4. No real change from that I'm afraid, although these days it may be easier to get it reset to defaults. (A new 10-day training period). But I have a feeling that is only easily done on WBC connections, even now.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Mon 11-Feb-13 17:59:06
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Fingers crossed, then tongue Hoping tomorrow I will wake up and it will have resynced overnight, my question would be this,

It has now been 15 days since the line was fixed, but during the first week or so I was rebooting the router occassionally. So effectively it has only been up continuously for 9 days (as the stats show),

Who knows, the DLM may have even already reset, it may just be waiting on a resync by me crazy

Edited by matthewcl375 (Mon 11-Feb-13 18:50:27)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 11-Feb-13 22:29:18
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
I advise 14 days from the last reboot. However once I accidentally did two reboots in the period, and the change still happened on the 10th day. With an auto-re-sync.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Tue 12-Feb-13 15:38:50
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Well,

Woke up this morning and found the DLM has done its magic overnight! I can see this in the error log:

Feb 12 07:48:57 xDSL linestate up (ITU-T G.992.1; downstream: 5792 kbit/s, upstream: 448 kbit/s; output Power Down: 13.8 dBm, Up: 11.9 dBm; line Attenuation Down: 6.0 dB, Up: 6.0 dB; snr Margin Down: 12.4 dB, Up: 23.0 dB)

So it in fact happened on the 9th day crazy Is this the right kind of speed increase you would expect with a 3db lowering of the SNR Target?

Only thing I'm concerned about, if I go into line stats I have these following errors, could they be to do with the re-sync that occurred last night?

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 9 / -
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1 / -
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / -
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 11 / -
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
HEC Errors (Up/Down): - / 0 / 0

Edited by matthewcl375 (Tue 12-Feb-13 16:24:05)

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 12-Feb-13 16:42:29
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
You still may be losing up to 2400Kbps due to the 12dB downstream SNRM...
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Tue 12-Feb-13 17:17:32
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Yeah, but DLM should re-sync again in 10 days time bringing the SNR down by another 3db until it reaches the optimal speed.

My question was, does the sync rate I'm now getting look reasonable for a 3db drop in Target SNR Margin?

And what of those errors?
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 12-Feb-13 17:51:32
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
With a 15dB SNRM sync was 4672Kbps and now with a 12dB SNRM sync is 5792Kbps so that means for a 3dB change in SNRM you have gained 1120Kbps - this is roughly consistent with ~1200Kbps for each 3dB of SNRM on your line.

So with a 6dB downstream attenuation and a 6dB SNRM a sync speed of 8128Kbps can be achieved, however because it seems that for each additional 3dB of SNRM, over 6dB, you may be losing ~1200Kbps, hence for a 12dB sync time SNRM your current sync speed of 5792Kbps looks about right.

Errors don't look to bad after a resync - keep an eye on them...
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 12-Feb-13 18:01:13
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Not much of a gain. Best you are going to get @ 6 dB NM is 7 Meg, 1 Meg shy of what you should.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 12-Feb-13 18:08:13
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
The problem with that is that on such of short line he should have loads of spare NM when syncing at 8 Meg G.DMT. Points to a wiring issue.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 12-Feb-13 18:25:11
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
The problem with that is that on such of short line he should have loads of spare NM when syncing at 8 Meg G.DMT. Points to a wiring issue.


Yes, I agree.
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Tue 12-Feb-13 18:28:24
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Or it could just be that at the time the router chose to re-sync this morning there was higher noise, and if I re-synced at a different time of day I may get higher maybe?

I can't see there being much of a wiring issue, due to the fact that the open reach engineer installed a brand new line for us, and we're currently plugged in to the test socket too crazy

@XRaySpeX How did you work out I'm only going to get 7Mbps at 6db? Going by what 4M2 said I should be able to reach the max of 8128Kbps ?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Tue 12-Feb-13 18:32:59)

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 12-Feb-13 18:42:17
Print Post

Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
Yes, but on a good line with a 6dB attenuation 8128Kbps is easily achievable with a 9dB SNRM.
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Tue 12-Feb-13 19:14:52
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Hmmmmmmmm.. only thing I can think is the time at which the router re-synced, any other ideas apart from that as to why that would be? Would it be worth re-syncing at a different time?

BTW: My SNR Margin has been at a steady 12.3 all day so far

Edited by matthewcl375 (Tue 12-Feb-13 19:18:05)

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 12-Feb-13 19:30:20
Print Post

Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
Hmmmmmmmm.. only thing I can think is the time at which the router re-synced, any other ideas apart from that as to why that would be? Would it be worth re-syncing at a different time?

BTW: My SNR Margin has been at a steady 12.3 all day so far


You currently have the router plugged in the test socket with perhaps only one corded phone in use via a dangle filter?

Have you tried another router, adsl lead and dangle filter in the test socket? If you have, or find that sync speed hasn't improved if you do, then it's likely that there is noise affecting the line exchange side of the master NTE5.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 12-Feb-13 19:44:08
Print Post

Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
@XRaySpeX How did you work out I'm only going to get 7Mbps at 6db?
= 5792K + (5792K - 5184K) / (15dB - 12dB) * (12dB -6dB) = 7008K

N.B. I'm discounting the 4672K reading taken at Mon 11-Feb-13 17:18:17 cuz it had then been up for 9 days and, therefore, the 16.6 dB NM isn't the Target NM. But even if I didn't it works out more or less the same. I think 4M2 overlooked this NM and for all we know the target for that reading was 18 not 15 dB.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 12-Feb-13 19:53:37
Print Post

Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
The real problem will occur if you ever went ADSL2+. You have no spare NM to soak up to take you to the upper reaches of ADSL2+ that your line deserves.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Tue 12-Feb-13 19:59:57
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
How did you guess tongue I have a dangle filter plugged into the test socket, with the router in one of its ports and the docking station for a cordless phone in the other.

The filter is the latest one which we were given from Tesco, we used to use an older one but Tesco suggested it be changed. Our router is a Thomson TG582n which Tesco sent us when we moved to our current broadband package.

We don't have any other routers to test with it, but we do have of course the old filter and a couple of spare DSL leads too.

What would people suggest I do here?
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 12-Feb-13 20:06:52
Print Post

Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
I think 4M2 overlooked this NM and for all we know the target for that reading was 18 not 15 dB.


Sorry, I'm starting to get a little lost in this long thread, but I worked from a 15.6 SNRM reading on Sun 03-Feb-13 01:25:22 smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 12-Feb-13 20:16:47
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by matthewcl375:
...I have a dangle filter plugged into the test socket, with the router in one of its ports and the docking station for a cordless phone in the other.


Cordless phones have been know to cause problems...I had a faulty one once on an extension/dangle filter and it caused all sorts of broadband SNRM/sync issues. I think it wasn't charging the batteries properly - it was cheap so just binned it.

Might just possibly be the cordless phone causing problems...
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 12-Feb-13 20:24:57
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Me too! Yes, his dad rebooted it 12 hours earlier when it had a NM of about 15 dB smile

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User matthewcl375
(regular) Tue 12-Feb-13 20:42:16
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Re: Slow Internet/low IP profile/high noise margin on Tesco


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
@XRayspeX You've kind of lost me there... which bit of the thread are you talking about?

Edited by matthewcl375 (Tue 12-Feb-13 20:48:19)

Moderator billford
(moderator) Tue 12-Feb-13 21:56:56
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CLOSED


[re: matthewcl375] [link to this post]
 
It seems more than you are getting a bit lost in this thread- it's getting a bit too long tongue

@all- Please start a new "Part 2" thread for any further replies, linking back to this one as appropriate- closed.

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6

Edited by billford (Tue 12-Feb-13 21:59:26)

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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