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Standard User squash8720
(newbie) Tue 13-Dec-11 14:42:43
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100mb virgin connection


[link to this post]
 
Are there any problems with the virgin 100mb connection speeds as I am consistently getting 65-70mb at any time of the day I have yet to get anywhere near the quoted 100mb speed I have been a 50mb user for a number of years and always have been getting 50 mb consistently I live in the Swindon area
Standard User pete_thomson
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 13-Dec-11 23:00:44
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: squash8720] [link to this post]
 
How are you testing your speed?

Was
Virgin Media 50Mb/s
53.34Mb/s - 1.65Mb/s - 29ms @ 24/05/2011
http://speedtest.net/result/1310626245.png

Now
Andrews & Arnold
5.66Mb/s - 0.75Mb/s - 42ms
http://www.speedtest.net/result/1526709410.png
Standard User squash8720
(newbie) Tue 13-Dec-11 23:34:10
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: pete_thomson] [link to this post]
 
I have been using speedtest.net for a number of years using the Maidenhead or London servers. For the last few years I have been on a 50mb connection, this site has been giving me consistent 49-50mb test results at all times of the day but since I have switched to a 100mb connection I have been unable to get anywhere near the 100mb speed 80-90mb would be nice which I would be very happy with but currently the test results I am getting back are very inconsistent using the speedtest site I have used the think broadband test and it has come up with a worse result only giving me 50-60mb I have had virgin media visit and they used one of their test sites and fiddled with a few settings and they did get 80-90mb off a Virgin test server in Birmingham but I have tried this virgin site my self and can only get 65-70mb at any time I think the Virgin network not ready for this kind of speed yet due to Virgin having to upgrade all their cabinets with new components I remember having the same problem when I subscribed to the 50mb service right at the beginning what do you think?


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 14-Dec-11 09:14:22
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: squash8720] [link to this post]
 
You need to test in the wee hours to see if you can fill the connection.

Our tester is on multiple Gig connections, and we do see people get speeds over 100 Meg regularly from fibre services.

Speedtest.net has various servers, and some may only be hosted on a 100 Meg, as are a great number of websites still. Thus to saturate a 100 Meg connection, you often have to run multiple downloads from multiple sources, to also avoid any congestion on a providers peering links.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User kwikbreaks
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 14-Dec-11 10:23:54
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: squash8720] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by squash8720:
I think the Virgin network not ready for this kind of speed yet due to Virgin having to upgrade all their cabinets with new components

Because of overheads the current VM config files will not give to 100Mbps of download. The 50Mbps config is actually 53Mbps so can deliver 50Mbps of download. To comply with ASA regulations VM will be upgrading their 100Mbps config files to allow 100Mbps of download (and even further screw up areas where they've actually sold it to somebody who uses it for anything other than speedtests and browsing).

Before VM launched the 100Mbps unlimited service and by doing so completely screwed up my area I could easily achieve 50Mbps from measured downloads or Speedtest.net (which actually shows peak not average speed although it is easy enough to monitor the actual download on a PC anyway). I never could from TBB but couldn't identify exactly why - I'm guessing it must have been the routing.

VM don't need to do anything more to support 100Mbps speeds in most areas. They do need to make substantial improvements to their local pipes to provide the actual bandwidth selling such speeds to heavy users will generate. Currently more and more areas are becoming badly congested just as mine did. As soon as I can move on to Infinity I'll be going. I may even risk ADSL if things get much worse but the unresolved HR DIS fault on the phone line which pushed me to cable a couple of years back puts me off the inevitable hassle of returning.

In general cable can support high speeds but not continuous high bandwidth usage - a couple of 100Mbps users can saturate the local pipe shared with 100+ other users. ADSL has problem matching cable speeds but can fairly easily provide huge bandwidth over fibre to the exchanges (or now to street cabinets). ADSL is uncontended back to the cabinet/exchange where there will be 100+ modems on a 200Mbps group of channels on cable. Upstream is even worse with only 18Mbps available to those 100+ modems. My own connection no rarely ever reaches the 1Mbps allowed by the config (I downgraded to 10Mbps as that's mostly all it can manage a lot of the time).

Just as ADSL was a kludge providing BB over a medium not designed for it cable was designed as a TV distribution system and kludging BB onto it involves compromises. Those compromises are becoming very visible as VM marketing push higher and higher headline speeds over infrastructure that simply can't economically provide the local bandwidth that is now being used.
Standard User anon123456
(member) Wed 14-Dec-11 14:55:20
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: kwikbreaks] [link to this post]
 
A few users can saturate a local node quite easily with something like 100mbit, the problem is that finding things to download at a constant 100mbit sustained is not actually very easy unless you're deliberately trying to get a high throughput.

At a peak of nearly 12MB/sec an hours downloading will fill about 42Gb of data

10 and a bit hours of doing that and you've filled a 500Gb hdd, you can do that easily with the right sources, but it's not something you'd do every day.

I download a LOT and have done over the years and the internet connections are fast outrunning the need to use them, I have 50mbit now and even large downloads are only saturating the connection for a few minutes at a time.

I'd say that connection speeds of the superfast connections are out-growing the backbone right now, but the total amount of content being transferred isn't growing as fast, so the backbone more often than not will cope.

I think local node congestion is more of a problem, some built up areas just aren't upgraded fast enough, if you're in an area that isn't locally congested like me, then you'll more or less get 50mbit flat out constantly at most times of the day.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 14-Dec-11 19:07:43
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: anon123456] [link to this post]
 
This is under the assumption everything downloaded is stored persistently.

streaming eg. doesnt get stored.

also for people who download "because they can" and they "pay for unlimited use", they may well trash a large chunk of what they download ie. it gets deleted very quickly when realise junk and then burn a large chunk of the rest to keep hdd space freed up.

a single user on 100mbit simply doing a speedtest will probably cause ping spikes as remember there will be other utilisation aside from that user, I also think its reasonable to assume the vast majority of 100mbit customers on VMs service are heavy users, I would guess at a minimum of downloading 300gig a month and quite easily going into multiple TBs. Whether or not there is any doing a TB a day I dont know but it wouldnt surprise me if there was.
Standard User kwikbreaks
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 15-Dec-11 06:25:02
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: anon123456] [link to this post]
 
Judging by what I see (virtually constant upstream congestion) then I think the issue is simply seeding torrents and somehow evading or plain defective shaping - or possibly hosting porn webcams although with only 10Mbps upstream it would need to be a pretty small business.

I just ran a speedtest and in fact it's OK this morning but it's not unusual to see limited upstream even at 6:30 am. For example - http://speedtest.net/result/1634423271.png
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 15-Dec-11 06:42:39
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: kwikbreaks] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kwikbreaks:
Judging by what I see (virtually constant upstream congestion) then I think the issue is simply seeding torrents and somehow evading or plain defective shaping - or possibly hosting porn webcams although with only 10Mbps upstream it would need to be a pretty small business.

I just ran a speedtest and in fact it's OK this morning but it's not unusual to see limited upstream even at 6:30 am. For example - http://speedtest.net/result/1634423271.png


in your case maybe yeah.

In my case its been confirmed I have "very high" downstream utilisation so someone somewhere (probably multiple people) is caning the downstream. I also clearly have high upstream utilisation as well tho although I think its below their thresholds. Of course its entirely possible with the shared pipe been so small noone is caning it and it could be congested just from moderate use.

Another thing to consider is that aside from 100mbit, VM stopped sending out usage letters a while back after the ASA ruling.

Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 15-Dec-11 06:43:31)

Standard User kwikbreaks
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 15-Dec-11 11:52:17
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
There may be some downstream congestion on mine too but as I've downgraded to 10Mbps it has to be pretty dire before I'd spot it. Since the split the TBB chart certainly looks better than before but they admitted there is still some high utilisation - just not high enough and long enough for them to raise a fault.

It will be interesting to see what the new traffic management does to the utilisation - if it works I suspect that there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth about the impact on volume downloads. I really can't blame the wailers either - just what is the point of having 100Mbps if you can't download anything sizeable at that rate?
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 15-Dec-11 20:37:42
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: kwikbreaks] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kwikbreaks:
There may be some downstream congestion on mine too but as I've downgraded to 10Mbps it has to be pretty dire before I'd spot it. Since the split the TBB chart certainly looks better than before but they admitted there is still some high utilisation - just not high enough and long enough for them to raise a fault.

It will be interesting to see what the new traffic management does to the utilisation - if it works I suspect that there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth about the impact on volume downloads. I really can't blame the wailers either - just what is the point of having 100Mbps if you can't download anything sizeable at that rate?


Indeed, the only real party to blame here is the isp.

I am currently getting sub 10mbit, it is pretty dire here.

The only reason I havent downgraded is that I been given a discount which effectively has me paying only for the bottom tier anyway.

http://www.speedtest.net/result/1650898947.png

Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 15-Dec-11 20:43:48)

Standard User anon123456
(member) Mon 19-Dec-11 09:10:21
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
I think that's local congestion, sucks that VM don't upgrade some of their nodes quickly enough. Broadband and cable has always been shared service, obviously if you want the full line speed all the time then you need to pay for a dedicated line or a 1:1 connection.

For the price, the speeds you can achieve and the large amount you can transfer VM is very good. It's about twice the price of the entanet connection I used to have, over 10x the speed and i went from being limited to something like 120Gb a month to essentially unlimited.

My advice would be to simply check the local speed in your area before joining up, either take a trial or ask some local people to do speed tests, or visit the forums a lot of people post area codes which are currently slow.

Even if I was only getting 10mbit I'd still be a good 3x faster than adsl in my area.
Standard User kwikbreaks
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 19-Dec-11 11:40:14
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: anon123456] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by anon123456:
My advice would be to simply check the local speed in your area before joining up...
That advice would be fine if it wasn't for the speed a "good" area can go to complete garbge. Mine was fine for ages then over a matter of days (possibly just a single day) it went to absolutely dire.

The problem is 100% caused by VM selling 100Mbps unlimited on shared local pipes that can only do 200down 18up. All it takes is a single torrent freak on 100Mbps to put a serious strain on a node serving maybe a couple of hundred customers. Add in a second and it's totally borked.

VM will be introducing new traffic management next year. If it's going to square the circle then it will be need to be pretty draconian for high usage customers which pretty much makes taking a 100Mbps connection pointless.

xDSL has lower headline speeds but is uncontended back to the fibre feed so can be given virtually unlimited bandwidth. By it's nature cable can deliver high headline speeds but is quite highly contended back to the fibre feed so delivering more bandwidth is expensive.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 19-Dec-11 16:26:37
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: anon123456] [link to this post]
 
Its entirely possible to sell a contended product and have no visible contention.

In addition if there is visible contention there is acceptable levels and unacceptable levels,

My own defenition of unacceptable is when it falls lower than the tier below what I am paying for and probably anything lower than 75% of marketed speed. Also I consider it unacceptable when I get any kind of slowdown outside of peak hours.

Why people accept shoddy service as acceptable is beyond me and why people think a service either has to be a leased line or completely oversubscribed is also beyond me. Especially when I know VM are capable of providing a good service as is evident in other areas.

By the way my area was only just activated when I ordered, yet somehow in a brand new area it was congested from day 1. How did VM manage that?

Edited by Chrysalis (Mon 19-Dec-11 16:34:27)

Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 19-Dec-11 16:30:21
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: kwikbreaks] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kwikbreaks:
In reply to a post by anon123456:
My advice would be to simply check the local speed in your area before joining up...
That advice would be fine if it wasn't for the speed a "good" area can go to complete garbge. Mine was fine for ages then over a matter of days (possibly just a single day) it went to absolutely dire.

The problem is 100% caused by VM selling 100Mbps unlimited on shared local pipes that can only do 200down 18up. All it takes is a single torrent freak on 100Mbps to put a serious strain on a node serving maybe a couple of hundred customers. Add in a second and it's totally borked.

VM will be introducing new traffic management next year. If it's going to square the circle then it will be need to be pretty draconian for high usage customers which pretty much makes taking a 100Mbps connection pointless.

xDSL has lower headline speeds but is uncontended back to the fibre feed so can be given virtually unlimited bandwidth. By it's nature cable can deliver high headline speeds but is quite highly contended back to the fibre feed so delivering more bandwidth is expensive.


Given Vms past behaviour of excempting top tier customers from traffic management my prediction is the new traffic management will be extremely draconian on lower tier customers in heavily subbed areas, so the top tier customers can post on public forums nice speeds and marketing wins, it wouldnt surprise me if they still excempted the top tier as VM have been stupid many times in the past.

How someone figured out STM was required to have a smooth network but then that same network could handle unthrottled 100mbit is baffling.
Standard User kwikbreaks
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 20-Dec-11 10:55:07
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
How someone figured out STM was required to have a smooth network but then that same network could handle unthrottled 100mbit is baffling.

Simple.

It wasn't the same "someone"

The networks "someone" noted that to provide sufficient capacity for demand he'd either need to (vastly) exceed his budget or introduce some restrictions on just how much could be downloaded or uploaded in a given time. Realistically those limits are far too high for what the network can deliver if the salesforce gets lucky which is why there have always been congested areas long before the madcap launch of 100Mbps unlimited.

The marketing "someone" wanted to advertise unlimited 100Mbps. As the company appears to be run by a bunch of cowboys he was allowed to do so despite the all too obvious consequences.

A note to the vast number of people who will say I get 10/20/30/50/100 all day every day...
pray you don't get a torrent freak take 100Mbps nearby - if you do kiss goodby to that sweet connection. If you get two kiss goodbye to any usable connection.

Edited by kwikbreaks (Tue 20-Dec-11 10:56:00)

Standard User pcoventry76
(knowledge is power) Sat 14-Jan-12 12:30:23
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
In reply to a post by kwikbreaks:
In reply to a post by anon123456:
How someone figured out STM was required to have a smooth network but then that same network could handle unthrottled 100mbit is baffling.


Hmm, well I know one of the people who thought it up! I shall go hit them round the head for you and others smile
Standard User anon123456
(member) Mon 16-Jan-12 13:42:50
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
That seems fair to me, if you want better speeds then pay more money, the network isn't run for free they need to pay off their running and investment costs, the people on the top tier like me are paying a lot of money for their connections, my 50mbit connection is about £40 a month which in a world of broadband which is often free with certain phone packages, is quite a lot of money.

Again I think most of the VM problems are local to some areas, i don't know what sort of percentage of their customers are in these problem areas I suspect it's probably small however, I do see some whining on tech forums but it tends to be from a bunch of people in one area, it eventually gets upgraded and it all dies down.

I don't see usage that is something that really heavily changes based on package speed, people who torrent a load of stuff are going to torrent that stuff irrelevant of their speed, the speed just decides over what period of time the network becomes congested, torrenting a 350mb TV episode on 100mbit for example is a burst download of about 30 seconds assuming full speed, it lowers the odds of that 30s clashing with someone elses download when you knock it through at much faster speeds.

This idea of usage increasing in direct proportion to available speed is a bit of a false idea, I think there will be some increase and we can't say exactly what that is but I suspect it's significantly less than the actual speed increase.

For example if you're on a 50mbit and you're downloading say 50Gb a month, then going to 100mbit isn't likely to cause you to now be download 100Gb per month. and the flipside which is I don't think people who download a lot, say 300gb per month are going to download any less if they're downgraded or capped they're still going to cause that throughput just over a longer period of time, instead of ragging out a 350 TV episode in 30s they'll simply do it over an hour or whatever it takes.
Standard User kwikbreaks
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 16-Jan-12 16:54:00
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: anon123456] [link to this post]
 
You seem to have forgotten seeding which some do constantly. The problems in my area were upstream rather than downstream. A single 100Mbbs user with 10Mbps up soaks up 60% of the available upstream on their node (several hundred victims) when running flat out.

I've no idea how many areas are impacted but the complaints seem to be growing since the upstream upgrades and 100Mbps launch - unless it's just that I notice them more because my own area sucks.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 16-Jan-12 18:24:35
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: kwikbreaks] [link to this post]
 
Seeding and upstream is the big issue, and hence why many providers target P2P rather than other download activities, i.e. they don't have the same effect as P2P

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User pcoventry76
(knowledge is power) Mon 16-Jan-12 23:19:41
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: anon123456] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by anon123456:
That seems fair to me, if you want better speeds then pay more money, the network isn't run for free they need to pay off their running and investment costs, the people on the top tier like me are paying a lot of money for their connections, my 50mbit connection is about £40 a month which in a world of broadband which is often free with certain phone packages, is quite a lot of money.

Again I think most of the VM problems are local to some areas, i don't know what sort of percentage of their customers are in these problem areas I suspect it's probably small however, I do see some whining on tech forums but it tends to be from a bunch of people in one area, it eventually gets upgraded and it all dies down.

I don't see usage that is something that really heavily changes based on package speed, people who torrent a load of stuff are going to torrent that stuff irrelevant of their speed, the speed just decides over what period of time the network becomes congested, torrenting a 350mb TV episode on 100mbit for example is a burst download of about 30 seconds assuming full speed, it lowers the odds of that 30s clashing with someone elses download when you knock it through at much faster speeds.

This idea of usage increasing in direct proportion to available speed is a bit of a false idea, I think there will be some increase and we can't say exactly what that is but I suspect it's significantly less than the actual speed increase.

For example if you're on a 50mbit and you're downloading say 50Gb a month, then going to 100mbit isn't likely to cause you to now be download 100Gb per month. and the flipside which is I don't think people who download a lot, say 300gb per month are going to download any less if they're downgraded or capped they're still going to cause that throughput just over a longer period of time, instead of ragging out a 350 TV episode in 30s they'll simply do it over an hour or whatever it takes.


if they got half of their homes to get 100mbps they would be making 546 million a month. Sorry which part of VM is strapped for cash? they pay their debts of very wel - infact the upgrades is costing them 100 million.
Standard User kwikbreaks
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 17-Jan-12 09:26:58
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
VM claim that they shape P2P. They also claim to shape NNTP.

I've seen many reports that evading the VM NNTP shaping is as simple as using encryption or even just using port 443 unencrypted. Purchased VPN services will counter P2P shaping as well as anonymising.

I don't use news or P2P so am not sure of the exact mechanisms or how fast purchased VPN services are but judging by the speed with which my area deteriorated somebody local to me could give me some good answers on that.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 17-Jan-12 10:02:34
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: kwikbreaks] [link to this post]
 
If VPN use grows to avoid other management, then the response may be more FUP reductions, something Virgin has used on its products for some time.

An ISP cannot see what you are doing on a VPN, but when it sees 1000's of endpoints ending on the subnet and that is outside the UK, e.g. Russia it is not hard to figure out what the reason is.

Oddly some seem happy to pay for a VPN to access films, when subscription sources are appearing.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 18-Jan-12 21:23:23
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
If VPN use grows to avoid other management, then the response may be more FUP reductions, something Virgin has used on its products for some time.

An ISP cannot see what you are doing on a VPN, but when it sees 1000's of endpoints ending on the subnet and that is outside the UK, e.g. Russia it is not hard to figure out what the reason is.

Oddly some seem happy to pay for a VPN to access films, when subscription sources are appearing.


The rumours are that the current traffic shaping is to be scrapped and a new method will be rolled out which isnt portocol based so ALL traffic will be throttled based on 2 conditions.

Utilisation of local UBR
How heavy the user is using the connection.

So it will be dynamic and it wont be evadable as it will effect all types of traffic.

What hasnt been indicated is when this is happening, if its uploads and downloads, if its all day or just peak, and if STM is also going to be scrapped, I suspect yes on the latter as this is closish to STM except a dynamic version.

The traffic management VM use now is not up to the job that is clear as night and day.

Also to the guy a couple of posts up, it seems you dont understand whats happening if you think 100mbit users have barely no strain on the network, not to mention you think its as simple as paying more money to get more speed, kwikbreaks had to downgrade since his higher package wasnt giving him that speed.

Do you think top tier customers are paying what they paying so they can do 30 secs of downloading?

Also usage patterns are always going upwards its niave to think otherwise and it especially happens when people get upgraded speeds.
Standard User Zadeks
(committed) Wed 18-Jan-12 22:00:31
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Nothing is able to compete with 1080p x264 high-bitrate rips.
Standard User pcoventry76
(knowledge is power) Thu 19-Jan-12 05:59:08
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Re: 100mb virgin connection


[re: kwikbreaks] [link to this post]
 
I have never hidden the fact that I download mainly via FTP. I do seed/use usenet 24/7/365 but that's on a dedicated server in France. I only FTP on my VM connection and that's usually done for 15-20 minutes a day.

I would never do this on my VM connection. I know I have to share the connection there but i dont on my dedi. I'd also never do the amount of monthly transfer I do on my dedi on my VM connection (20TB roughly)

I am not considerate but I understand how it all works and I know that heavy users bend over the network and [censored] it.

Edited by pcoventry76 (Thu 19-Jan-12 05:59:45)

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