RFoG

There seems to be some confusion on some web sites I have been on, things I have read and what the end users are saying.

RFoG will not bring any faster speeds in the future. The only reason they are using RFoG is because it is so much cheaper to rollout a FTTP/FTTH network utilising RFoG than a traditional CATV network. It also allows quicker installation times...

Essentially all RFoG does is bring the optical node closer to end user.

AFAIK Virgin will be sticking with DOCSIS and not installing any GPON.

I was one of the original trail it's for RFoG back in 2011/2012.

RFoG removes the restrictions of RF amplifiers and delivers a higher quality signal due to not requiring any amplification, thus allowing higher speeds. The current DOCSIS networks are, at best, 5-65MHz on the return path, not all of which will be usable due to ingress, and 87MHz-1GHz downstream. RFoG has no such limitations.

There is a gigabit trial in the not too distant future in Papworth Everard, presumably using GPON. VM are trying different technologies.

VM aren't using RFoG for new installs right now, they are testing it out. A major issue with it is that it requires battery backup in order to allow telco services to be provided.

Unsure about how much quicker an RFoG installation is, an HFC installation doesn't require installation of a new, mains powered ONT at the customer site, but will defer that to those who are more knowledgeable on such things.

RFoG doesn't just bring the optical node closer to the end user, it replaces the coax run with fibre but the node is still shared between a number of customers. RFoG is installed as a passive optical network and is pretty simple to change to GPON should the operator require it, just a matter of switching what it's connected to.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

RFoG removes the restrictions of RF amplifiers and delivers a higher quality signal due to not requiring any amplification, thus allowing higher speeds. The current DOCSIS networks are, at best, 5-65MHz on the return path, not all of which will be usable due to ingress, and 87MHz-1GHz downstream. RFoG has no such limitations.

There is a gigabit trial in the not too distant future in Papworth Everard, presumably using GPON. VM are trying different technologies.

VM aren't using RFoG for new installs right now, they are testing it out. A major issue with it is that it requires battery backup in order to allow telco services to be provided.

Unsure about how much quicker an RFoG installation is, an HFC installation doesn't require installation of a new, mains powered ONT at the customer site, but will defer that to those who are more knowledgeable on such things.

RFoG doesn't just bring the optical node closer to the end user, it replaces the coax run with fibre but the node is still shared between a number of customers. RFoG is installed as a passive optical network and is pretty simple to change to GPON should the operator require it, just a matter of switching what it's connected to.

They already have 1.5gbps running over a DOCSIS network in the lab over a standard HFC setup.

RFoG doesn't replace the coax run completely. I was trying to simplfy what exactly RFoG is to the average person. That is why I said the most simple way to think about it is moving the optical node to the drop box where it then converts the fibre to coax. I know it's not quite that simple but it's the best way of putting it.

There is no major issue to do with RFoG and phone services. When I had a RFoG install for Virgin we were provided with a landline via the BT network through an LLU agreement in partnership with talk talk. The Virgin rep told me that the cost of providing battery backup, etc means it if more profitable to get a few quid commission off talk talk for the phone side of the service than providing it themselves. He said their main interest is. tv and Internet

RFoG will only ever be used in new build areas they won't roll it out over there whole network because is no point but for.new builds its the best option for CATV at the moment. It's so much quicker and cheaper to get in the ground than HFC.

I had 1gbps from Virgin using RFoG over 3 years ago so it's nothing new.

In reply to a post by worldofadsl:

I had 1gbps from Virgin using RFoG over 3 years ago so it's nothing new.

What was the CPE you were using 3 years ago? Wasn't aware that 24 downstream CPE existed at that time. The earliest I'm aware of is an Intel Puma 6 based bit of kit announced in May 2012. Kit capable of 1.5Gb has only been around for a few months.

The RFoG trial in Papworth simply didn't come with a phone service. VM want to get rid of their own PSTN and replace it with VoIP across the board, which means battery backups on both ONT and CPE.

So if as claimed its coax for the final leg into the home, how does this differ from the standard install. How long would this coax segment be?

Always worth getting the 'experts' to tell us these snippets

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

So if as claimed its coax for the final leg into the home, how does this differ from the standard install. How long would this coax segment be?

Always worth getting the 'experts' to tell us these snippets

It's much quicker to blow fibre once you have a trained team than it is to do an average standard pull.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

In reply to a post by worldofadsl:

I had 1gbps from Virgin using RFoG over 3 years ago so it's nothing new.

What was the CPE you were using 3 years ago? Wasn't aware that 24 downstream CPE existed at that time. The earliest I'm aware of is an Intel Puma 6 based bit of kit announced in May 2012. Kit capable of 1.5Gb has only been around for a few months.

The RFoG trial in Papworth simply didn't come with a phone service. VM want to get rid of their own PSTN and replace it with VoIP across the board, which means battery backups on both ONT and CPE.

I was never told what CPE I was using.... Fujitsu didn't really give us that kind of info.

In reply to a post by worldofadsl:

I was never told what CPE I was using.... Fujitsu didn't really give us that kind of info.

There wasn't a badge on the Superhub-type thing?

I do remember the trial from last time actually. It was a PIA trial with Fujitsu building the network and VM and TalkTalk delivering services over it.

Wasn't aware that VM went up to 1Gb on RFoG, was only aware of trials at 100Mb, so thanks for that info. I know that TalkTalk were delivering 1Gb via point to point fibre on the same trial but RFoG doing 1Gb is a new one.

If VM are going to deliver RFoG to new build how are they going to use TalkTalk's LLU network for telco? New build estates won't have any Openreach network for LLU?

Edited by deleted (Wed 17-Dec-14 10:34:59)

And so what is different in the home? Do people still get a coax buried under their drive, which is what your post implies

No it is fibre up to the outside wall of the property where it then converts to coax.

Thanks

One presume the converter needs power, so VM run power to the outside wall of every property? Or is it running of the homes mains power?

Really FTTH then, but with a DOCSIS presentation to the hardware, and who knows a full IP set-top box in the future could do away with the need for RFOG and unleash GPON.

A lot more scope for future speed expansion than you have suggested then.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Thanks

One presume the converter needs power, so VM run power to the outside wall of every property? Or is it running of the homes mains power?

Really FTTH then, but with a DOCSIS presentation to the hardware, and who knows a full IP set-top box in the future could do away with the need for RFOG and unleash GPON.

A lot more scope for future speed expansion than you have suggested then.

The power runs to the box from inside.

Afaik GPON is never going to be concentrated on because the amount of RFOG is so small.

This whole thread reads like something from a Monty Python sketch - Acronyms Anonymous!

In reply to a post by Stevenage_Neil:

This whole thread reads like something from a Monty Python sketch - Acronyms Anonymous!

<pedant mode>
In fact you are referring to Initialisms, since an acronym needs to be a meaningful word!
</pedant mode>

In reply to a post by worldofadsl:

I was never told what CPE I was using.... Fujitsu didn't really give us that kind of info.

Quick question - if you don't know what the CPE was how do you know it was using RFoG and DOCSIS for broadband rather than, say, GPON then EPON?

In reply to a post by worldofadsl:

The power runs to the box from inside.

Afaik GPON is never going to be concentrated on because the amount of RFOG is so small.

This doesn't make a huge amount of sense. Why would VM ignore the cheaper, larger commodity GPON technology in order to use DOCSIS for broadband because there's less RFoG in use?

I see RFoG as a stepping stone and that in time a new shiny set-top box that is all IP based and just takes Ethernet from a ONT will appear, about the same time as a 4K service rolls out I'd guess.

Maybe even with the concept of zero local storage with paused/catch-up all played from the cloud and thus your PVR contents are available wherever you can get an Internet connection with the correct Virgin app.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

I see RFoG as a stepping stone and that in time a new shiny set-top box that is all IP based and just takes Ethernet from a ONT will appear, about the same time as a 4K service rolls out I'd guess.

Maybe even with the concept of zero local storage with paused/catch-up all played from the cloud and thus your PVR contents are available wherever you can get an Internet connection with the correct Virgin app.

This can all be done now. Indeed it is partly being done; linear TV using RF and broadband and interactive/VOD via GPON to the property and Ethernet between ONT and STB, with coax between STBs and a MoCa router then standard Cat 5e between MoCa embedded router and ONT.

Verizon for example use a Motorola 7232-P2. Everything can also go on the same coax with no Cat 5e and for earlier Verizon installs did, however this solution allows use of the main STB as a media centre.

Edited by deleted (Fri 19-Dec-14 08:36:49)

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

In reply to a post by worldofadsl:

I was never told what CPE I was using.... Fujitsu didn't really give us that kind of info.

Quick question - if you don't know what the CPE was how do you know it was using RFoG and DOCSIS for broadband rather than, say, GPON then EPON?

It was an RFoG trail using PIA I did for Virgin, talk talk and Fujitsu.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

In reply to a post by worldofadsl:

The power runs to the box from inside.

Afaik GPON is never going to be concentrated on because the amount of RFOG is so small.

This doesn't make a huge amount of sense. Why would VM ignore the cheaper, larger commodity GPON technology in order to use DOCSIS for broadband because there's less RFoG in use?

I doubt RFoG represents even 0.5% of their network. It makes sense to keep everyone using DOCSIS.

In reply to a post by worldofadsl:

It was an RFoG trail using PIA I did for Virgin, talk talk and Fujitsu.

The TalkTalk bits weren't RFoG, they used straight Ethernet.

The VM bits delivered 100Mb broadband only, not 1Gb as far as I'm aware?

In reply to a post by worldofadsl:

I doubt RFoG represents even 0.5% of their network. It makes sense to keep everyone using DOCSIS.

It makes none of the 'production' network, it was a trial. Even new-build areas have been done using HFC.

There's currently an RFoG trial going on in Papworth Everard; there will be a further trial of GPON in the very near future. VM are evaluating a hybrid solution as well as an all-RFoG solution.

The RFoG trial offers the same speeds the current cable network delivers using the same CPE. A gigabit trial in Papworth is due in 2015.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

In reply to a post by worldofadsl:

It was an RFoG trail using PIA I did for Virgin, talk talk and Fujitsu.

The TalkTalk bits weren't RFoG, they used straight Ethernet.

The VM bits delivered 100Mb broadband only, not 1Gb as far as I'm aware?

What are you talking about?

Talk Talk provided us with a standard POTS line during the trail.

VM didn't deliver just broadband during the trail we had TIVO and full TV package.

It was 1gbps we had installed not 100mbps.

I will try and find the press release to prove to you once and for all we had 1gbps not 100mbps.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

In reply to a post by worldofadsl:

It was an RFoG trail using PIA I did for Virgin, talk talk and Fujitsu.

The TalkTalk bits weren't RFoG, they used straight Ethernet.

The VM bits delivered 100Mb broadband only, not 1Gb as far as I'm aware?

https://www.cable.co.uk/news/fujitsu-trialling-fibre...

In reply to a post by worldofadsl:

https://www.cable.co.uk/news/fujitsu-trialling-fibre...

There's nothing in that story about what was actually delivered, and you are wrong about TalkTalk just delivering POTS.

First that story is very careful to give potential performance, it doesn't make a claim on what was actually delivered:

Next-generation broadband that can potentially offer speeds of up to 1Gbps will be available to volunteers taking part in the initiative, who will be called on to give feedback on the performance of their connections.

According to this:

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/4880-fujitsu-put-...

This limited trial is taking place in Greasby, the Wirral for 6 months and will offer speeds of up to 100Mbps through two service providers- Virgin Media and TalkTalk.

The trial was delivering 100Mb. Are TBB wrong?

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/broadband/370243/virgin-...

The first step in Fujitsu's plans is the Wirral trial, where TalkTalk and Virgin will offer services over a 1Gbit/sec network to consumers in Greasby, initially at 100Mbits/sec.

As mentioned previously there was no DOCSIS chipset capable of 1Gb available at that time. This didn't happen until the Intel Puma 6 and its peers, which were announced in 2012. 1Gb had been 'demonstrated' in 2011, however that was using 2 x 16 channel modems to bond 32 channels, not a single device as there was nothing capable of bonding more than 16 channels as of 2011. The RF front-ends were sampling 100MHz of spectrum, so were restricted to 12 EuroDOCSIS or 16 DOCSIS channels worth of bandwidth, about 600Mb.

This slide seems pretty clear that TalkTalk were part of the PIA trial and were using active Ethernet carried over fibre to deliver 100Mb.

Just FYI while the trial was using test kit you were connected to a production CMTS at Virgin Media and using a production CPE once past the RFoG media converter. The kit you were connected to was a Motorola BSR 64k. Virgin are currently replacing the BSR 64k with the Arris E6k as the Motorola is not capable of delivering more than 600Mb to a single node.

TLDR: You weren't on 1Gb from VM because the kit for the home didn't exist, and there was no kit to deliver it at the hubsite either.

Edited by deleted (Wed 24-Dec-14 15:30:33)

I've been on VM in Papworth now for a few months. So far so good but not heard much more about the 1GB trial, any news on when this will be happening?

In reply to a post by urbanmac:

I've been on VM in Papworth now for a few months. So far so good but not heard much more about the 1GB trial, any news on when this will be happening?

I heard back end of last year but it was put back to the early part of this year.

Sorry, unsure what they're up to with it right now. There are 2 fibres going to your home so when you get something from VM saying they want to rock up and mess with the other fibre you aren't using right now that's probably a good sign.