User comments on ISPs
  >> Virgin Media (Cable)


Register (or login) on our website and you will not see this ad.


Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | (show all)   Print Thread
Standard User davebruno
(newbie) Mon 19-Sep-16 15:18:47
Print Post

Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[link to this post]
 
This shows my go live day of vivid gamer 200.

I was on the standard 50 meg down package, I really dont advise vivid gamer to anyone.

My Broadband Ping

I'm cancelling and going to AAISP.
Standard User ionic
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 19-Sep-16 15:45:52
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: davebruno] [link to this post]
 
That's quite clearly faulty unless you've been switching off for large periods of time.
Standard User 23Prince
(regular) Mon 19-Sep-16 16:43:38
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: ionic] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ionic:
That's quite clearly faulty unless you've been switching off for large periods of time.


That's normal for Virgin Media,

OP - good decision you won't regret it i'm sure smile


Register (or login) on our website and you will not see this ad.

Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Mon 19-Sep-16 18:10:42
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: davebruno] [link to this post]
 
Firstly it looks like you turn the router off, do not do this when you switch ISP.

Secondly yes the BQM is very common on VM - nothing out of the ordinary there for VM. Only fix is to switch ISP really.
Standard User tommy45
(knowledge is power) Mon 19-Sep-16 19:50:19
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: ionic] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ionic:
That's quite clearly faulty unless you've been switching off for large periods of time.
Session drop & different IP,??? But my concerns would be the level of fluctuation of the latency JITTER LEVEL!! it's excessive all of the time, unless there is something continually uploading or downloading ?? the TBBQM isn't normal IMO
But if that is typical of VM they could stick it
Standard User davebruno
(newbie) Mon 19-Sep-16 21:01:38
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: ionic] [link to this post]
 
Its not the red parts I'm talking about, the red part is when I tried to fix my aweful ping that started to jitter worse than before after I hooked up the "new and improved" super hub 3.0 and activated my 200 down 20 up "gamer" package.

If you notice the jitter got significantly worse at around 11am which is when I got the router in the post and activated the "upgrade" the other red lines are due to me trying to get the jitter to calm back down.

I rung tech support to be told that any ping under 200 is acceptable and a varience of 100ms is fine, even on their gamer package. they wouldnt accept it had gotten worse and they said there is nothing that they could do as it was within acceptable ranges, infact they said it was very good and much better than most people who report faults!

They also were not prepared to accept my ping to first hop results (this is where the jitter is) and would only go by a speedtest.net result which is stupid as I wasn't contesting the speed. I have an appointment with a specialist for the 28th but I'll be shocked if he can make it acceptable. I wont be stopping my cancellation regardless as it taken 8 calls to get through to their cancellations department without being cut off after 20-40min hold times!

Worst company ever, I have been recommending them for years due to my own ignorance at the reasons for my problems on BT networks in the past and taring all other DSL ISPs with the same brush.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Mon 19-Sep-16 21:21:43
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: davebruno] [link to this post]
 
VM get worse and worse sadly on their marketing.

Some years back the ASA slapped them on their claims they good for gaming when they not.

Now they actually name one of their packages vivid gamer 200 when they pretty much the worst isp for gamers.

However it seems VM are making this for gamers this time on the basis you can download games quickly with the high burst speeds and the generous upload speeds wont impede streaming the game play. So they putting a different angle on it this time.

If jitter is important for you then switch to a dsl isp.

Sky Fibre Pro BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 19-Sep-16 21:58:35
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: davebruno] [link to this post]
 
The gamer package does not offer any latency/jitter tweaks, its normal cable but with higher upload (20 Mbps) and no traffic management.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User davebruno
(newbie) Mon 19-Sep-16 22:01:02
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I hoped some of the jitter was traffic management but my jitter actually got measurably worse on the higher speed gamer package!
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Tue 20-Sep-16 01:53:30
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: davebruno] [link to this post]
 
Yes those who report faults are often like this:

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Speed/post-your-...

Yours does not seem bad by VM standards, but is worse than the FTTC ones we see here.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 20-Sep-16 12:01:21
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: davebruno] [link to this post]
 
Jitter on Virgin Media is usually done to the way DOCSIS works and the impact of what others are doing on the shared medium rather than the traffic management systems and upload speed capping that used to take place.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User 23Prince
(regular) Tue 20-Sep-16 13:06:25
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: davebruno] [link to this post]
 
Something I think does not happen on FTTC so you will be happy on AAISP
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Tue 20-Sep-16 13:26:16
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: davebruno] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by davebruno:
I hoped some of the jitter was traffic management but my jitter actually got measurably worse on the higher speed gamer package!


The traffic management does not apply to the downstream, only the upstream at 50Mbps... Even then the upload speed is 1.5Mbps which is plenty for gaming. So to all intents and purposes the traffic management should have made no difference. As others have stated it's just the way the virginmedia network is designed.

Companies such as TalkTalk and BT often have a worse reputation to the public than virginmedia, with people stating virginmedia is fibre optic and has better cabling etc... Reality is that for gaming you'd almost always be better with a TT or BT connection. Congestion as well seems much more rare on the other providers. I personally had virginmedia and could not believe how poor my connection was. I was paying 39 quid a month and my TT connection at 18 quid performed better for most tasks.
Standard User 23Prince
(regular) Tue 20-Sep-16 16:03:18
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ukhardy07:
In reply to a post by davebruno:
I hoped some of the jitter was traffic management but my jitter actually got measurably worse on the higher speed gamer package!


The traffic management does not apply to the downstream, only the upstream at 50Mbps... Even then the upload speed is 1.5Mbps which is plenty for gaming. So to all intents and purposes the traffic management should have made no difference. As others have stated it's just the way the virginmedia network is designed.

Companies such as TalkTalk and BT often have a worse reputation to the public than virginmedia, with people stating virginmedia is fibre optic and has better cabling etc... Reality is that for gaming you'd almost always be better with a TT or BT connection. Congestion as well seems much more rare on the other providers. I personally had virginmedia and could not believe how poor my connection was. I was paying 39 quid a month and my TT connection at 18 quid performed better for most tasks.


It's well documented I had congestion with Infinity but it was sorted out in days with a segment reshuffle. But I also have a TalkTalk Business connection via AAISP and no complaints there.

Edited by 23Prince (Tue 20-Sep-16 16:03:44)

Standard User davebruno
(learned) Tue 20-Sep-16 17:24:24
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Push comes to shove do you think a really long line (2 miles birdseye) from me to cabinet fttc would be any better than my Virgin for low/stable ping? Dont really care about speeds aslong as Ive got 40+ down 5+ up I'll be happy just want a nice stable and low latency connection.. But 2 miles plus of copper if they do put me on cab2 laisterdyke is a lot of copper!
Standard User Realalemadrid
(learned) Tue 20-Sep-16 19:04:25
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: davebruno] [link to this post]
 
You can forget FTTC at that distance, you will be lucky to get any speed at all. Have you actually discovered which cabinet you are connected to? It seems strange that you may be on a different exchange to your neighbours.

Edited by Realalemadrid (Tue 20-Sep-16 19:07:36)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 20-Sep-16 19:57:54
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: Realalemadrid] [link to this post]
 
believe it is all a red herring

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Tue 20-Sep-16 20:06:46
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: davebruno] [link to this post]
 
I do not think your line is 2 miles if it estimates 40Mbps.

I find even ADSL at 15Mbps better for gaming than VM. It is hard to say for certain what will be better, but usually BQMs are better outside of VM.
Standard User 23Prince
(regular) Tue 20-Sep-16 21:13:15
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: davebruno] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by davebruno:
Push comes to shove do you think a really long line (2 miles birdseye) from me to cabinet fttc would be any better than my Virgin for low/stable ping? Dont really care about speeds aslong as Ive got 40+ down 5+ up I'll be happy just want a nice stable and low latency connection.. But 2 miles plus of copper if they do put me on cab2 laisterdyke is a lot of copper!


I assume you did put your number into the checker at the bottom of http://aa.net.uk/ ? it'll tell you your line length.

AA should have/would have told you anyway at signup.
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Tue 20-Sep-16 21:32:05
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: 23Prince] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 23Prince:
I assume you did put your number into the checker at the bottom of http://aa.net.uk/ ? it'll tell you your line length.
Which number? He doesn't have a phone.
Standard User mpellatt
(member) Thu 22-Sep-16 06:14:32
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Jitter on Virgin Media is usually done to the way DOCSIS works and the impact of what others are doing on the shared medium rather than the traffic management systems and upload speed capping that used to take place.

Something more/other than that is going on here. There's massive evidence that on the same physical connection a Hub 2ac (or even a "plain" Hub 2) won't show massively variable ping times, whereas a Hub 3 will. So the finger points pretty firmly at the Hub 3 as the root of the issue.
Standard User Daemon66
(member) Thu 22-Sep-16 09:33:44
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: davebruno] [link to this post]
 
Sorry to hear that you have a bad experience of Virgin like many others here but to counter the outpouring of VM hate that has appeared here I'd like to show that VM can sometimes get it right, here is my graph: http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/409fe532050...
And that includes a 50GB download of Forza Horizon 3 in the evening peak smile
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 22-Sep-16 09:54:31
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: mpellatt] [link to this post]
 
Yes jitter on BQM is sometimes made to look worse because some firmware in some versions of the superhub deprioritise ICMP echo responses so long that it makes things look worse.

This is why sometimes outbound pings from a PC will be better than the BQM system.

i.e. multiple issues happening

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User hgrbirchall
(newbie) Thu 22-Sep-16 10:40:57
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: davebruno] [link to this post]
 
I spoke to VM yesterday as my internet connection had become unusable: it was dropping out every ~35 minutes. It appears that there is a firmware issue with the Hub3.0 which exhibits when in modem mode and connected to certain hardware at there end.

I got them to send me a SH2ac as it does not suffer from the same issue, and also appears to have noticeably better ping times.

here is a link to my BQM and my parents (Hub3.0 v SH2ac) both in modem mode.
Me: My Broadband Ping
Parents: My Broadband Ping

see this link to the VM forum for more details of the issue. (warning this thread is over 100 pages and counting, lots of people are suffering from this issue) Hub 3.0 port flapping

I hope this helps.
Standard User davebruno
(learned) Thu 22-Sep-16 13:23:49
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Yes jitter on BQM is sometimes made to look worse because some firmware in some versions of the superhub deprioritise ICMP echo responses so long that it makes things look worse.

This is why sometimes outbound pings from a PC will be better than the BQM system.

i.e. multiple issues happening


If it was prioritizing them would it not only show when underload? i.e something to give priority over?

My PC pings to their own DNS server shows a varience of 3-4ms and every 5 or so pings it goes up by about 50-100ms.. Better than the BQM but not ideal for their highest tier gamer oriented package..
Standard User 23Prince
(regular) Thu 22-Sep-16 13:27:21
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
In reply to a post by 23Prince:
I assume you did put your number into the checker at the bottom of http://aa.net.uk/ ? it'll tell you your line length.
Which number? He doesn't have a phone.


oops!

postcode then? tongue
Standard User 23Prince
(regular) Thu 22-Sep-16 13:28:12
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: Daemon66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Daemon66:
Sorry to hear that you have a bad experience of Virgin like many others here but to counter the outpouring of VM hate that has appeared here I'd like to show that VM can sometimes get it right, here is my graph: http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/409fe532050...
And that includes a 50GB download of Forza Horizon 3 in the evening peak smile


You call all that red good? ok..
Standard User davebruno
(learned) Thu 22-Sep-16 13:35:02
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: 23Prince] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 23Prince:
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
In reply to a post by 23Prince:
I assume you did put your number into the checker at the bottom of http://aa.net.uk/ ? it'll tell you your line length.
Which number? He doesn't have a phone.


oops!

postcode then? tongue


Yeah postcode was showing 40meg FTTC on a 2+mile line so it was wrong, AAISP done their magic now my postcode shows 80/20 if I get a clean line, 75/20 impacted.. New copper pair installed on the 7th so hopefully it should be clean!
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 22-Sep-16 14:18:27
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: davebruno] [link to this post]
 
Depends on what the router CPU is doing, might be periodic memory clean-up calls

I did point out when doing the news about the gamer package that it adds nothing to improve latency and is more intended for those who find the existing upload regime limiting e.g. twitch broadcasters

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User 23Prince
(regular) Thu 22-Sep-16 15:16:45
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: davebruno] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by davebruno:
In reply to a post by 23Prince:
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
... nested quotes trimmed ...
Which number? He doesn't have a phone.


oops!

postcode then? tongue


Yeah postcode was showing 40meg FTTC on a 2+mile line so it was wrong, AAISP done their magic now my postcode shows 80/20 if I get a clean line, 75/20 impacted.. New copper pair installed on the 7th so hopefully it should be clean!


Well I have 80/20 and I get 74/18 sometimes 19.
75/20 is still brill so that's about 69/70 down and 18/19 up
Standard User davebruno
(learned) Thu 22-Sep-16 15:46:38
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Yeah I hadn't really been here/read it until I had the issues with Virgin, glad I've joined as there is so much useful info here and now I'm going over to DSL I'm well excited to see some nice stable pings! Just hope I get a lovely DLM profile fingers crossed!

It was the traffic management why I tried their higher tier, I hoped they would sort out the bufferbloat since they upped the upload too but the whole thing just got worse since I plugged in the plauged 3.0 hub..
Standard User 23Prince
(member) Thu 22-Sep-16 18:28:05
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: davebruno] [link to this post]
 
Best thing I ever did was not go with them, judging by their forums and comments here.
Standard User Daemon66
(member) Fri 23-Sep-16 09:45:46
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: 23Prince] [link to this post]
 
"all that red" ? What are you on about? A few, less than 1 in 20, ICMP packets exceeded the TTL during the period the line was maxed-out by a substantial download? Yes I call that good.
Standard User 23Prince
(member) Fri 23-Sep-16 12:35:41
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: Daemon66] [link to this post]
 
Sorry I thought the red at the top was packet loss and bad, clearly I am not anal enough to know or care for the ins and outs.
Standard User WWWombat
(knowledge is power) Fri 23-Sep-16 15:47:33
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: 23Prince] [link to this post]
 
Yes, any red at the top is pretty terrible. Slightly less terrible if there is a big download saturating the link at the time ... but IMO the link should cope better than that. You really want no red up at the top. At all.

Perhaps I'm picky, but I'd prefer that there was almost no blue either (ie the average latency pretty much matches the minimum latency). Even better if this can be kept during large downloads.

Even pickier ... I'd prefer the green area to have an absolutely flat border. The minimum latency should always be identical.

Unfortunately, I think my pickiness disqualifies me from considering a VM connection.

My current BQM... doesn't quite live up to this pickiness. There's a hint of blue during saturation, and the occasional red dot.
BQM

The yellow spikes in there are (mostly) the places where my SamKnows testbox is running tests - some download tests saturating the link, and some testing streaming performance for YouTube and Netflix (it used to do iPlayer too).
Standard User djfunkdup
(committed) Fri 23-Sep-16 16:29:19
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: 23Prince] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 23Prince:
Sorry I thought the red at the top was packet loss and bad, clearly I am not anal enough to know or care for the ins and outs.



Clearly indeed.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...
Vivid200/12+Mbps (Standalone BroadBand Connection)
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 23-Sep-16 18:00:21
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by WWWombat:
Even pickier ... I'd prefer the green area to have an absolutely flat border. The minimum latency should always be identical.


A BQM for a hosted server looks like that, in a data centre with a serious internet connection:
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/c2443e38e9b...

Consumer broadband is cheaper for a reason, its asymmetric and that makes it harder for TCP/IP and then there is less money per end user.

My plusnet BQM is similar to yours, earlier this week:
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/0748bcc087d...

plusnet unlimited fibre 80/20 since 2 Jun 14 - Sync as of 7th Aug 16: 55,355/10,291 kbps with G.INP
17 years of UK broadband since 1999 ntl:cable modem trial -Router: Asus RT-AC68U with HG612 - BQM
Standard User 23Prince
(member) Fri 23-Sep-16 20:42:57
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: djfunkdup] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by djfunkdup:
In reply to a post by 23Prince:
Sorry I thought the red at the top was packet loss and bad, clearly I am not anal enough to know or care for the ins and outs.



Clearly indeed.


And glad! Having a life is good.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sun 25-Sep-16 14:51:37
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
although you did pick ovh wink as an example a budget provider.

They sell servers on gigabit uplinks with several TB of usage allowances for cheaper than a broadband connection smile

Sky Fibre Pro BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 25-Sep-16 14:53:29
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
although you did pick ovh wink as an example a budget provider.

when its a toy server, you want to pay low prices! smile

They sell servers on gigabit uplinks with several TB of usage allowances for cheaper than a broadband connection smile

Exactly.

plusnet unlimited fibre 80/20 since 2 Jun 14 - Sync as of 7th Aug 16: 55,355/10,291 kbps with G.INP
17 years of UK broadband since 1999 ntl:cable modem trial -Router: Asus RT-AC68U with HG612 - BQM
Standard User 23Prince
(member) Sun 25-Sep-16 15:19:59
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
although you did pick ovh wink as an example a budget provider.

They sell servers on gigabit uplinks with several TB of usage allowances for cheaper than a broadband connection smile


Mine is only on 100mbps but I do about 17TB a month upload on it - download I really don't know probably double that.

It's in Gravelines and costs £9,99 a month for 4GB/2TB and the usual CPU's

I like the way Gravelines is not only next to France's nuclear power station but also how it gets power from the nearby Sea

Oh and + it's the best for my connection.
Standard User Daemon66
(member) Mon 26-Sep-16 10:18:10
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: 23Prince] [link to this post]
 
Isn't it a little sad when ex-VM staff come on a forum to post negative comments about a product they don't actually use and claim it means they have a better 'life' than those who might actually know a little more than them <rolleyes>
Standard User 23Prince
(member) Mon 26-Sep-16 14:53:09
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: Daemon66] [link to this post]
 
No idea, who is doing that? Is that aimed at me?

My connection being slow when I had it has nothing to do with my view of them. I think VM are a fantastic company on the inside.

I'm only an ex employee due to personal tragedy. Had I not had that I'd still be there today I'm sure.
Standard User adslmax
(knowledge is power) Mon 26-Sep-16 23:46:53
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
The gamer package does not offer any latency/jitter tweaks, its normal cable but with higher upload (20 Mbps) and no traffic management.


Where are the proof of this real test please MrSaffron? No offence at all.
Standard User 23Prince
(member) Tue 27-Sep-16 00:21:49
Print Post

Re: Vivid Gamer 200 upgrade BQM got worse


[re: adslmax] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by adslmax:
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
The gamer package does not offer any latency/jitter tweaks, its normal cable but with higher upload (20 Mbps) and no traffic management.


Where are the proof of this real test please MrSaffron? No offence at all.


Look at the product pages, He is right.
Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | (show all)   Print Thread

Jump to