Virgin Media XGS PON

Hiya,

Found this mentioned on virgin media’s site when looking at future options once virgin media arrive in my town.

“ TV 360 and home phone not currently available in 2022/23 network expansion areas”

What does this mean? If VM arrive in my area is it going to be broadband only with no TV?

In reply to a post by Kr1s69:

What does this mean? If VM arrive in my area is it going to be broadband only with no TV?

Quite possibly! Depends what they deploy, but today VM have three network types:
* coax cable - DOCSIS
* FTTP RFoG - which is fibre to your home and a convertor to coax - DOCSIS
* FTTP XGS-PON - which may be delivered by nexfibre the new company

It appears the existing TV services require the DOCSIS service, so perhaps VM are planning on launching a service similar to Sky’s Stream, or they will not bother with TV anymore, it may not be profitable.

Yeah we’re in the new areas getting XGS PON which to me makes me wonder how the TV element works if there is one.

I think virgin media have a puck called stream too but it’s less well known than Sky’s offering and doesn’t look as good as a ‘proper’ broadcast TV package.

In reply to a post by Kr1s69:

Yeah we’re in the new areas getting XGS PON which to me makes me wonder how the TV element works if there is one. I think virgin media have a puck called stream too but it’s less well known than Sky’s offering and doesn’t look as good as a ‘proper’ broadcast TV package.

My guess is that without RFoG and DOCSIS its just too hard for VM to route their existing TV platform hardware (“head ends”) over an internet connection. So your choices are streaming via Sky or VM’s options that use the internet, or go for an old style Sky Q setup with a dish….

I have friends that gave up with VM’s TV6 box as over a 3 year period it got less and less good, channels disappeared and replaced by streaming, recording programmes no longer working and told to go to “on demand” (streaming) and use iPlayer, or ITVx or similar.

Ofcom’s Connected Nations report out last month said TV watching hours is shrinking.

I have VM’s cable internet, but nothing else, the phone is VoIP over the router if you pay the high fees. The downside of the old coax network in my area (30 years+ old) is the unreliability of the cabling in the street and the inability to fix.

Edited by jchamier (Thu 10-Aug-23 19:51:42)

I just found this press release which does seem to confirm its broadband only.

I’m surprised it isn’t more widely discussed as it’s a big change.

https://news.virginmediao2.co.uk/bringing-our-gigabi...

I’m wondering why they are microtrenching so many areas if there’s no TV - they can make better use of openreach poles if there’s no requirement to come into the front living room of a property. (My area has poles in the back lane)

In reply to a post by Kr1s69:

I’m surprised it isn’t more widely discussed as it’s a big change.

Bit change for them, maybe, but would hazard a guess they will withdraw TV as they replace the coax areas. There is more certain money in being an internet provider than in being a TV provider. TV is fast becoming one of the many things you do over the internet. I can see Freeview disappearing in the UK in 25 years time.

I’m wondering why they are microtrenching so many areas if there’s no TV - they can make better use of openreach poles if there’s no requirement to come into the front living room of a property. (My area has poles in the back lane)

Using the least amount of Openreach equipment means paying them the least amount of money under the PIA programme. CityFibre microtrench roads, and then use either OR poles, or OR ducts, or even drill their own to get to homes. VM may do similar.

Nexfibre and CityFibre probably think they are both in a race to be the UK’s second neutral network provider after Openreach. NexFibre still only has VM as a customer, CityFibre has a few ISPs signed up.

I keep forgetting that I may not be locked in to VM as it’s nexfibre that will provide the infrastructure.

Hopefully someone will do either symmetrical or something that isn’t 10:1 ratio

I’m also hopeful Grain may come to my town too as they offer a symmetrical service.

Seems bizarre to push everybody who wants to watch live sport into the arms of Sky, rather than putting the effort into delivering TV reliably over an IP network - something that BT have been managing since 2006.

In reply to a post by jpm:

Seems bizarre to push everybody who wants to watch live sport into the arms of Sky, rather than putting the effort into delivering TV reliably over an IP network - something that BT have been managing since 2006.

Given much of the sport is contracted to a single provider, its now either TNT sports or Sky Sports channel packs, and maybe three delivery methods. EE/BT TV, or TalkTalk TV, or Sky Stream/Glass, or Sky Q over a dish, or in an older area VM TV.

It is, I had expected VM rolling out to my area would mean I would leave Sky.

I’m now wondering if I need to keep a basic Sky Q package or can survive with an app based TV experience.

In reply to a post by Kr1s69:

It is, I had expected VM rolling out to my area would mean I would leave Sky.

I would hope you have a trial with VM TV before making such as decision. You may not have the choice, but in many cases people whom did this have rejoined Sky 6 to 12 months later... VM TV was quite different!

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Kr1s69:

What does this mean? If VM arrive in my area is it going to be broadband only with no TV?

Quite possibly! Depends what they deploy, but today VM have three network types:
* coax cable - DOCSIS
* FTTP RFoG - which is fibre to your home and a convertor to coax - DOCSIS
* FTTP XGS-PON - which may be delivered by nexfibre the new company

It appears the existing TV services require the DOCSIS service, so perhaps VM are planning on launching a service similar to Sky’s Stream, or they will not bother with TV anymore, it may not be profitable.

Just a note the TV Service does not require DOCSIS. DOCSIS is a network protocol that was created to run on top of existing cable TV Networks harnessing some of the TV spectrum to make them useful for future internet use while maintain legacy TV Services that run over UHF

The HFC "coax" network was a TV network first with DOCSIS slapped on top to make it useful for them to compete against upcoming DSL providers

RFoG is basically the same thing they've just replaced more of the coax with fibre hence the name RF over Glass which has a media converter on the end to convert light back into RF hence maintaining TV compatibility

XGS-PON is passive and does away completely running on top of the existing UHF TV signals, its also been built as a wholesale network and not purly a VM exclusive so even though technically possible to run side by side they are not bothering to mash them together,

In the long run the old HFC Network will go and legacy TV services will indeed be removed completely in favour of products like their Stream box which can only be ordered by broadband only customers, The box uses the same horizon software as as the 360 box its just 100% IPTV based rather than a mix of IP and UHF and lacks recording

so no its not lack of DOCSIS its lack of an UHF network that stops the 360 service being available and the bonus DOCSIS and its inherent flaws also go

In reply to a post by acpsd775:

so no its not lack of DOCSIS its lack of an UHF network that stops the 360 service being available and the bonus DOCSIS and its inherent flaws also go

Thank you! That makes sense with the original analogue TV boxes as well as the cable modems back in 1999.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Kr1s69:

It is, I had expected VM rolling out to my area would mean I would leave Sky.

I would hope you have a trial with VM TV before making such as decision. You may not have the choice, but in many cases people whom did this have rejoined Sky 6 to 12 months later... VM TV was quite different!

Yep I’ll be keeping the sky until I’ve tried whatever my replacement is.

I’ve seen more openreach FTTP around town so there’s a chance that gets here first.

These new fangled broadband technologies appear to work like buses, wait ages and then loads come along.

In reply to a post by Kr1s69:

These new fangled broadband technologies appear to work like buses, wait ages and then loads come along.

Same here, the VM coax goes back to the 1990s, and the Openreach copper is probably 1920s, yet in the last 24 months there are two Alternate Networks running FTTP through the town. The first to get here gets my business from VM as I can't cope with the random disconnects anymore. (caused by failing cabinet that networks aren't interested in fixing).

I had assumed that they were installing RFOG because they are installing power pillars next to where the connecting boxes are going?

Virgin seem to have finished in Newbiggin a while ago but doesn't seem to be live yet.

Openreach doesn't seem to be doing much work, possible just duct clearing. Would they clearing blockages so that virgin could their fibre?

In reply to a post by greenglide:

I had assumed that they were installing RFOG because they are installing power pillars next to where the connecting boxes are going?

If there are any signs, or info online, you could see if its Virgin Media or nextFibre doing the install, that might give a clue. I thought the RFoG deployment had ended though.

Openreach doesn't seem to be doing much work, possible just duct clearing. Would they clearing blockages so that virgin could their fibre?

That happened around here before two alt-nets appeared, I wonder if the PIA process that allows for the rental of OR's ducts and poles also includes getting them unblocked?

Blyth have XGS-PON so I think we’re getting that too. The work is also being done on behalf of Nexfibre rather than VM directly so I’m sure we’ll not get RFoG.

Nexfibre are clearing openreach ducts themselves rather than openreach doing it for them, but as both are working in the same towns there are often nearby works that look very similar.

Around Hirst in Ashington you can see fibre CBT’s at the top of poles and thinkbroadband mapping shows it as available in some postcodes - more than just the new build and initial exchange only lines that got it some time ago.

I was having a chat with the guys who just did the fibre pull for my road (no digging / poles its all). Basically from what he knows its a full fibre broadband product only, tv service could be provided by a streaming box but it will just utilize your broadband connection.

The kit is capable of 10gbit but the broadband product will be 1gbit initially (though there are some 2.5gbit trials going on).

I asked if he had a Ready for service estimate he said he doesnt know but it will be some time this year.

BT had my address on a FTTP build plan at the start of the year but then suddenly remove the address and have not added me now (not even planned on OR's FTTP tracker). Im stuck with slow unreliable and flakey fttc so im happy for at least someone getting me a half decent product.

In reply to a post by Kr1s69:

Blyth have XGS-PON so I think we’re getting that too.

Interseting.They did Bedlington last summer/autumn and it's RFoG.

Thanks that does seem to match what I’ve read since starting this thread.

In my part of the town nexfibre roadworks are only initial works fixing ducts etc whereas other areas have started microtrenching to each property.

I have however seen openreach FTTP equipment on poles closer to me than I had seen before which is promising too.

I’m hoping the lack of work in my area is more related to our current services using poles for the final customer connection whereas the newer areas of town have more underground services.

I guess there has to be a transition point between technologies but it is slightly annoying to have an interim RFoG product. I guess the benefit of it is it supports proper VM TV.

RFoG enabled all the internal stuff to be done by existing engineers without any additional training requirements - it's just DOCSIS and all the existing tools worked with it, and it allowed VM to build fibre while kicking the can down the road a bit in terms of what they were going to put on the end of it.

It would have been nice if the time that was bought by taking this approach had been used to launch some interesting services and develop streaming TV with a delay comparable to a satellite broadcast (should be easy since the physical and IP network belongs to one company) but they seem to have not tried to do this. I don't really think that fibre directly into the "Hub" is a great idea either, a wall mounted ONT at least gives the cable half a chance of surviving in a house.

In reply to a post by drefsab:

tv service could be provided by a streaming box but it will just utilize your broadband connection.

VM already have such a service, as do Sky of course:
https://www.virginmedia.com/tv/stream

Adtran make ONTs that are XGS-PON compatible but have 1 Gigabit Ethernet connections. Hopefully any FTTP network building in 2023 is using XGS-PON, the Alt Nets in my town are already and I read even Openreach are moving that way. CityFibre have said they are retrofitting older areas.

I suspect this is about ensuring more people can get higher upload speeds in high usage scenarios, rather than selling faster products. (Community Fibre in London do have a 3 Gbit/s option for lots of money).