Virgin has just come in area

Virgin has just come in my area after 15 years of waiting I’m with EE no problems whatsoever 500mg, been offered 1Gb with Virgin for £31.99 brilliant. I’ve had nothing but complaints from people saying how bad the internet is. It’s perfect then can go again but not for hours it can e anything to 1 to 3 days until it’s fixed.

Before entering contract I might just stick with EE.

Is it true they are tripe? Customer services is tripe as I’ve been on phone and chat with them.

In reply to a post by MapooUK:

Is it true they are tripe?

They are very regional. I'm in the Hampshire/Surrey border area and have really no technical issues, but people in other parts of the country can. Most of those are on the OLD cable TV network. If you are a NEW area then likely your cabling is by nexfibre which means it will be different.

Customer services is the same country wide... hopefully you don't need.

In reply to a post by MapooUK:

Virgin has just come in my area after 15 years of waiting

WOW!

In reply to a post by Nervous:

WOW!

Virgin Media is the anchor ISP for the really new nexfibre FTTP network. This has been rolling out for a few years now and is building in areas where none of Virgin Media's predecessors have been (e.g. NTL, Telewest or the companies before). Eventually nexfibre will offer other ISPs on the network; but today they only offer Virgin Media service as they are working closely together.
https://www.nexfibre.co.uk/

Edited by jchamier (Sun 16-Mar-25 14:37:16)

Depends on area, but the main reason they are considered rubbish by some people especially gamers and users of latency sensitive programs is Latency and Jitter.
Day to day use like streaming and web surfing by most people will be fine.

In reply to a post by Nervous:

Depends on area, but the main reason they are considered rubbish by some people especially gamers and users of latency sensitive programs is Latency and Jitter.

This is often a symptom of the physical cable-tv coax areas (DOCSIS) which is still the majority of the country. Newer areas using non cable-TV cabling show different effects on these. See my BQM for a fairly average trace from a cable-tv coax area.

you will be lucky if your house is on the database the nextfibre update to virgin seem very dodgy with half of any street nextfibre install to missing off the VM system. not a good start when your signing a contract and they dont know a contractor installed points outside your garden

For me it is baffling how you had to wait 15 years for VM when you already had Openreach FTTP agreed as part of the wayleave process.

But anyway, it seems your story is similar to mine. We also never had any Virgin Media COAX available. We only have Community Fibre last 2 years.

However, last year in June a wayleave was agreed for Virgin Media nexfibre, which my housing estate EastendHomes agreed with SCCI Alphatrack. The only hypothesis for this is that SCCI do our communal TV aerial system so the wayleave was probably simpler. Also the previous Technical Services Manager left his position so that might have been a contributing factor for the wayleave agreement.

Initially it was showing as live before it went back to "Keep me posted". All the other buildings apparently are live now in my estate except for 3 buildings.

As I've always said before wayleave is only part of the story. Just like Community Fibre they claimed it will be only 12 weeks to complete. But it has been 9 months and not all places have gone live for VM. For Community Fibre it took 20 months to complete in my building.

I'm not too optimistic on the service quality and perhaps for me Openreach FTTP is generally a better service than nexfibre due to 650 ISPs and more affordable prices. While VM might have offered you £31.99 but it will massively price hike at the end of the contract. You need to be aware of this and quickly migrate on time or haggle with them.

There is very little choice on VM and most of the packages are asymmetric. You have to pay £5 extra for symmetrical. Maybe the only plus side is that there's no CGNAT but it also means no IPv6 either. There's also no ONT, you are stuck with their router, which if you want to use your own you have to put it in modem mode since most routers don't have a Fibre SFP+ port. You need a special router that has SFP+ port to directly plug the Virgin Media Fibre cable into it.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

There is very little choice on VM and most of the packages are asymmetric. You have to pay £5 extra for symmetrical. Maybe the only plus side is that there's no CGNAT but it also means no IPv6 either.

Which ISPs on Openreach offer symmetric packages? I know BT has launched some packages but only in BDUK areas (so certain areas of England only, no Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland). The fact that's only £5 extra and they do it in all of the areas they provide fibre to is a massive selling point.

If I could, I would rather have 500/500 than 1000/100 but nobody offers that. It's also really hard to search for plans by upload speed because everyone wants to shove the download speed in your face, front and centre. I guarantee Virgin having symmetric speeds for only a fiver extra will sell to certain people. A shame they still don't have IPv6 though.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

There's also no ONT, you are stuck with their router, which if you want to use your own you have to put it in modem mode since most routers don't have a Fibre SFP+ port. You need a special router that has SFP+ port to directly plug the Virgin Media Fibre cable into it.

You could buy a media converter. I did that recently in my home because I decided to run a fibre cable from my switch downstairs to the bedroom upstairs. I'll add an SFP card to my desktop eventually but the media converter does the job for now.

Openreach will offer symmetric packages this April 2025 but of-course none of us know yet, which ISPs will be offering those services. I'm aware it is going to be extremely expensive at £122 a month!

But I expect that in future prices will go down naturally. The strongest point of Openreach is that they offer their packages to 650 different ISPs. You have a much larger scale of options to choose from with more router choice.

Of-course my original post was speaking from my perspective having Community Fibre already that does have symmetrical speeds. The problem is that they no longer offer to have CGNAT removed for their 500Mbps/1Gbps packages. You now need to opt for their 3Gbps. This is especially a problem when you require port forwarding particularly for old style games that use Games for Windows Live or other games like S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Clear Sky where you cannot host your own Multiplayer servers or join servers.

From my point of view of-course symmetrical speeds is less relevant. I'd still in some respects prefer to have Openreach as a second network provider compared to Virgin Media. Because like you say they don't have IPv6 while it may be no big deal at least I would have more choice on Openreach like with BT presently do. The danger of price hiking is always there. VM will drastically hike up their prices unlike other Altnets. If you only have VM available and it is the only anchor ISP on the nexfibre network they will take advantage and can price hike.

There are reports even on these forums that people who have another Altnet available, use this as a tactic to haggle with Virgin Media to get their prices down! If you have multiple choices or ISPs then VM and others cannot monopolise you!

In reply to a post by aidanh:

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

There's also no ONT, you are stuck with their router, which if you want to use your own you have to put it in modem mode since most routers don't have a Fibre SFP+ port. You need a special router that has SFP+ port to directly plug the Virgin Media Fibre cable into it.

You could buy a media converter. I did that recently in my home because I decided to run a fibre cable from my switch downstairs to the bedroom upstairs. I'll add an SFP card to my desktop eventually but the media converter does the job for now.

Ok, that's great to know! But I just had a look at those media converters and the majority of them are only 1Gbps support. What happens if you chose a 2Gbps package on VM? Then that Media Converter will not support those speeds and you will be capped at 1Gbps.

I cannot find a media converter that supports higher than 1000Mbps. I have found this https://www.startech.com/en-gb/networking-io/et91000sc2 while it claims to support Maximum Data Transfer Rate 2000 Mbps (full duplex mode) the title and the name still shows as 1000 Mbps and it costs £197.99 GBP incl. VAT!

I could buy a new router like the rt-ax89x that seems like a more rational choice https://www.asus.com/uk/networking-iot-servers/wifi-...
That has the 10G SFP+ port included. But that still means I have to shell out for a new router should the Virgin Media hub be causing problems. Maybe, just maybe like others have mentioned on these forums if in future other ISPs join the nexfibre network they might offer to either install an ONT or they will manufacture a special router similarly like the Hub 5x that will have an SFP+ port included.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

I cannot find a media converter that supports higher than 1000Mbps. I have found this https://www.startech.com/en-gb/networking-io/et91000sc2 while it claims to support Maximum Data Transfer Rate 2000 Mbps (full duplex mode) the title and the name still shows as 1000 Mbps and it costs £197.99 GBP incl. VAT!

The one I bought was this one:
"6COMGIGA 10G Ethernet Network Media Converter, Unmanaged 1x 100M/1G/2.5G/5G/10GBase-T RJ45 to 1x 10GBase-X SFP+ Slot 10Gigabit Ethernet Media Converter, AC 100V~240V or DC 5~12V Optional "
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CRYXZTPL

It's not available right now but I paid £80 for it so definitely cheaper than buying a 10-gig router or switch, although maybe you could find a 2.5 gig switch for that price. This presupposes you already have 10-gig (or 2.5 gig or 5 gig, etc) Ethernet available though which of course most people don't have anyway. In my case I did already have the NICs for this but was just switching from those awful copper SFP-to-Ethernet transceivers that overheat and stop working to something I hope will be a bit more reliable.

If all you need is gigabit then you can find these media converters cheap from someone like TP-Link for £30.

I think the real takeaway from faster Internet plans becoming more commonplace is that routers nowadays really should be coming with multiple 10G-BaseT ports and SFP ports but this is expensive.

ASUS has done well to include both 10G-BaseT ports and SFP ports on their 10-gig capable routers because not every ISP is going to use the same technology and not everyone's LAN is going to use the same technology and by not providing both you're only going to confuse less knowledgeable buyers that might buy it and think it's compatible only to later find out that's not the case and have to deal with returns and support costs, etc.

In reply to a post by aidanh:

I think the real takeaway from faster Internet plans becoming more commonplace is that routers nowadays really should be coming with multiple 10G-BaseT ports and SFP ports but this is expensive.

On the first point I would agree. On the second, ISP's should be providing ONTs and SFPs should be unnecessary for the incoming fibre. SFP's should be optional according to whether the customer wants to run any of their internal kit as fibre.

In reply to a post by DFScale:

SFP's should be optional according to whether the customer wants to run any of their internal kit as fibre.

Which is essentially what Virgin are doing. They give you a CPE, it's up to you if you want to run your own gear.

What would be nice is if ISPs gave you a choice whether you want an ONT or to use SFP, etc. I know business customers usually get a choice with some ISPs but you take what you're given with consumer Internet connections.

For the Nexfibre to terminate into your own equipment is may be a little more complicated.

This is an interesting read here:
WAS-110 SFP+ Module on Virgin Media’s XGS PON broadband

15 steps well explained, albeit it by the time it gets to step 9 its beyond me.

Thank you very much for your response.
I see, £80 may not be all that bad but it is still expensive for only a converter. I've found a few others that claim to be 10GBase-T https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007391933720.html This one costs only £23, not sure if it can be trusted. AliExpress isn't always reliable as they sell scammed products that don't represent their specs.

I've also found this https://www.amazon.co.uk/Port-Umanaged-SFP-Compatibl... It's a network switch with 2 x 10G SFP and that's only £49.98. I'm wondering if just plugging the fibre into the switch and then the LAN cable into the router will work.

But if like the guide that suggests all 3 requirements...
A WAS-110 XGSPON ONU SFP+ Module
LC/APC to SC/APC cable or adaptor
A device with a spare SFP+ slot (ie switch, router etc)

This also ends up becoming expensive and hectic as you also have to flash a firmware update. Now I understand why you spent £80 to avoid all of these troubles...

But even if we want to use our own router that also costs money. I have an old NETGEAR DGN 2000 and 2200 routers but these are very much outdated now and not suitable for Full Fibre.

For the most part I use the ISP supplied routers like in the case with BT so I never needed to use my own. But if the Hub 5X is problematic and needs replacing then I guess I'll either go for the media converter or buy a router for around £200 that has an SFP+ port included..

This is the hesitation that I was worried about when I heard of Virgin Media coming to my area. I would've liked to avoid these troubles. If the network was matured or had more ISPs joining the network then this would've been something I could've considered.

I'd probably still go with Community Fibre as my first choice even if VM became available here at least it comes with an ONT. Only headache is of-course the CGNAT issue. But some have said that they've found a way round this with tailscale or VPN.

But the picture here shows that it has a WAN port as well alongside the 10G-BaseT ports and SFP ports. https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71qa9IUSwWS._AC_...
Are you sure the PC Network card must also be upgraded? I know it will need to be upgraded to harness 10Gbps. But no ISP yet offers those speeds in the UK for home users.

I thought you could simply plug the LAN cable into one of the 8 LAN ports into the router and at least have gigabit speeds. Actually more info found here https://gigazine.net/gsc_news/en/20210529-asus-rt-ax...

"From left to right, WAN port, LAN port that supports communication at 10 Gbps, and SFP + port that supports communication at 10 Gbps."

While the WAN port only supports 1Gbps the RJ45 for 10Gbps BaseT for WAN/LAN x 1 works for 10Gbps provided that the network card on the computer also supports that. But we will need to upgrade the NIC anyway if we want 2Gbps for VM. Most computers only support 1Gbps. The problem is that even if we chose only 500Mbps or 1Gbps on VM you are still stuck with the Hub 5X. We will need to make these upgrades just to overcome the lack of ONT barrier.

Edited by BLaZiNgSPEED (Fri 21-Mar-25 04:31:14)

In reply to a post by aidanh:

You could buy a media converter. I did that recently in my home because I decided to run a fibre cable from my switch downstairs to the bedroom upstairs. I'll add an SFP card to my desktop eventually but the media converter does the job for now.

An ONT does a completely different job to a media converter.

In simplest terms: a media converter talks ethernet on both sides (e.g. 1000baseLX on fibre and 1000baseT on copper).

An ONT talks the GPON/XGS-PON protocol on one side, and ethernet on the other.

If you connect a media converter to the Virgin fibre, it simply won't work.

(*Some* altnets do use point-to-point ethernet rather than PON, but VM is not one)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by aidanh:

You could buy a media converter. I did that recently in my home because I decided to run a fibre cable from my switch downstairs to the bedroom upstairs. I'll add an SFP card to my desktop eventually but the media converter does the job for now.

An ONT does a completely different job to a media converter.

In simplest terms: a media converter talks ethernet on both sides (e.g. 1000baseLX on fibre and 1000baseT on copper).

An ONT talks the GPON/XGS-PON protocol on one side, and ethernet on the other.

If you connect a media converter to the Virgin fibre, it simply won't work.

(*Some* altnets do use point-to-point ethernet rather than PON, but VM is not one)

Isn't that what the SFP module that you have to flash firmware to does though? In my head I was thinking you could get one of those modules, flash the firmware, plug it into a media converter, plug a desktop or router, or whatever to the Ethernet on the other side and get a WAN address out of it via DHCP but maybe this is too simplistic?

What's the difference between the media converter and plugging the module into an SFP network card or port in a router then?

In reply to a post by aidanh:

What's the difference between the media converter and plugging the module into an SFP network card or port in a router then?

SFP+ is quite different to SFP.

media convertors likely have no operating system, or intelligence, they are passive. A network card in a server or a port in a router has an operating system to configure the port and communiate with the software in the SFP+ ONT. The module ONT will need this to work.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by aidanh:

What's the difference between the media converter and plugging the module into an SFP network card or port in a router then?

SFP+ is quite different to SFP.

Ah, that makes sense. I keep forgetting there's a ton of different SFP standards and not all of them are the same. I guess I would have to buy a NIC if I ever do sign up for Next Fibre then, but they're not in my area right now anyway.

In reply to a post by aidanh:

Ah, that makes sense. I keep forgetting there's a ton of different SFP standards and not all of them are the same. I guess I would have to buy a NIC if I ever do sign up for Next Fibre then, but they're not in my area right now anyway.

nexfibre(no t) is the wholesale network builder that are working with VM as the ISP, and will eventually have other ISPs on the network. My area is older VM cable so we won't see nexfibre here.

The SFP and SFP+ technologies both allow for passive and active options, in this specific case the ONT module is active running software to manage the GPON/XGS-PON network connection. In enterprise data centres you can find passive media convertor style SFP/SFP+ modules as well.

More here:
https://www.cablematters.com/Blog/Networking/SFP-vs-...

In reply to a post by aidanh:

Isn't that what the SFP module that you have to flash firmware to does though?

Firmware doesn't come into it. An ONT even uses different lambdas (frequencies of light) to a media converter, and includes a filter to separate out the transit and receive lambas from the same fibre; that is, the hardware is completely different.

You *can* buy an ONT in an SFP/SFP+ module form factor, which means you could plug it directly into a switch or router with SFP/SFP+ socket. But this module is still a self-contained ONT. A media converter is ethernet-to-ethernet only, and has no PON capability.

In any case, I strongly recommend you don't replace the network-supplied termination device. This is the demarcation point for the service, so if you remove this, they will (quite rightly) disclaim all responsibility for problems with the service.

Don't waste your money buying things that won't work. Use the equipment supplied by the network operator. If they supply a router and you want to use your own, then either put their router in bridge mode (which effectively turns it into just an ONT), or ask the network operator to supply you with a pure ONT - some altnets will do this on request.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Use the equipment supplied by the network operator. If they supply a router and you want to use your own, then either put their router in bridge mode (which effectively turns it into just an ONT), or ask the network operator to supply you with a pure ONT - some altnets will do this on request.

I agree. ISP's that don't supply to an ONT as demarcation point are muddying the waters. Workarounds other than the 2 described above are the customer further muddying the waters.

It works really well with fibre if you don't see it physically or in signal terms.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

either put their router in bridge mode (which effectively turns it into just an ONT), or ask the network operator to supply you with a pure ONT

I understand that nexfibre do neither.... and the Virgin Media hub5x that handled the ONT and router functions in one unit, doesn't have a modem mode. There are apparently undocumented web pages that can force one. Double NAT with all inbound being port forwarded may be the only option.

Hub 5 = DOCSIS or RFoG areas
Hub 5x = nexfibre FTTP areas

If you have 1Gbps or slower, this can work, but you are limited to the 1Gb port. If you have 2Gbps service then don't use this or you will be limited to 1Gbps.
https://www.reddit.com/r/VirginMedia/comments/1ah1bo...


This was nearly a year ago:
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2024/04/update...

In that case, if VM doesn't offer you the service that you want, then don't buy it.

From VM's point of view: 95% of their users are happy to use the bundled router+wifi, which makes it easy to support the service, so they're not worried about losing the other 5%.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

From VM's point of view: 95% of their users are happy to use the bundled router+wifi, which makes it easy to support the service, so they're not worried about losing the other 5%.

You can say the same about 90% of the ISPs that are available over the wholesale networks, but it is an oddify that Virgin Media on DOCSIS coax or RFoG you have the modem mode, and yet with nexfibre FTTP there is no option, yet it is marketed the same on virginmedia.com - a bit odd.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

You can say the same about 90% of the ISPs that are available over the wholesale networks, but it is an oddify that Virgin Media on DOCSIS coax or RFoG you have the modem mode, and yet with nexfibre FTTP there is no option, yet it is marketed the same on virginmedia.com - a bit odd.

Not so odd: VM can't manage devices if they don't have IP addresses. Not that they can't support bridge mode on XGSPON but that they lose management of the Hub if they do. All the hubs on the RF network have at least one IP address all the time regardless of operating mode.

You lucky VM dug up my garden to install an access point to my house and now are saying my house doesnt exist. dont go with anyone that has access to the post office database but their copy is so corrupted they dont know how to fix it,.

you do know virgin media is just NTL rebranded to virgin media to keep telewest customers happy dont you.

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

VM can't manage devices if they don't have IP addresses.

OLTs and ONTs communicate using special management frames. The OLT collects data from the ONT about status, light levels etc.

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

You can say the same about 90% of the ISPs that are available over the wholesale networks, but it is an oddify that Virgin Media on DOCSIS coax or RFoG you have the modem mode, and yet with nexfibre FTTP there is no option, yet it is marketed the same on virginmedia.com - a bit odd.

Not so odd: VM can't manage devices if they don't have IP addresses. Not that they can't support bridge mode on XGSPON but that they lose management of the Hub if they do. All the hubs on the RF network have at least one IP address all the time regardless of operating mode.

Why can't they assign some internal management address to the hub for management purposes (on a private VLAN that hopefully doesn't collide with the customers LAN)? I think they could support modem mode if they really wanted to, they just don't care enough to implement it properly.

In reply to a post by pyarwood:

you do know virgin media is just NTL rebranded to virgin media to keep telewest customers happy dont you.

Its a bit more complex, but I assume you know the actual history? I visited the old HQ offices in Hook a few times for my job, long before I was a customer.

NTL & Telewest merged == ntl:telewest Ltd
ntl:telewest Ltd then purchase Virgin Mobile from Richard Branson to offer "quad play" to compete with BT & Sky
Renamed the combined entity "Virgin Media" and offer the same products group wide.

If you go back to the history of NTL it includes a lot of companies, and in my area was "International CableTel" that bought National Transcommunications Ltd (of Crawley Court, Crawley, Hampshire) and gained the initials NTL.

Lots of web pages out there.

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

Not so odd: VM can't manage devices if they don't have IP addresses. Not that they can't support bridge mode on XGSPON but that they lose management of the Hub if they do. All the hubs on the RF network have at least one IP address all the time regardless of operating mode.

Really? No VLAN for management? How do Openreach and CityFibre and the AltNet's manage the ONTs then? Given the hidden web page that works I have to conclude its a cost decision around support, and that they don't have a 2.5GbE port on the 5x.

Its also gone a bit further than that john C malone who originally was in charge of telewest owns Liberty global who bought virgin media so essentially its now back to be telewest.

Edited by pyarwood (Tue 25-Mar-25 07:03:29)

In reply to a post by pyarwood:

Its also gone a bit further than that john C malone who originally was in charge of telewest owns Liberty global who bought virgin media so essentially its now back to be telewest.

Malone is a billionare with hundreds of investments. And Liberty now only own 50% of Virgin Media, since the merger with O2 the other half is Telefonica. I doubt John himself has any interest in day to day operations, more concerned about a return on investment surely, now he is 84.

Liberty global bought NTL:Telewest in 2013 and he is OWNER so only 8 years after NTL aquired telewest (and wrote off millions in debt of the 2 companies. you think the old owner telewest had nothing to do with it acquiring his old company back.

he was 72 when liberty bought ntl and it was no where near merging with o2 then

This is quite off topic now. I don't think ownership of large companies by insanely huge investment organisations is relevant. They're looking for return on investment over the long term.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

VM can't manage devices if they don't have IP addresses.

OLTs and ONTs communicate using special management frames. The OLT collects data from the ONT about status, light levels etc.

Which doesn't really help when your management platform runs via TR-069. OMCI doesn't have that and VM need APIs into Nexfibre to get that stuff anyways.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Really? No VLAN for management? How do Openreach and CityFibre and the AltNet's manage the ONTs then? Given the hidden web page that works I have to conclude its a cost decision around support, and that they don't have a 2.5GbE port on the 5x.

Openreach, CityFibre, etc, manage ONTs via OMCI usually. This runs between OLT and ONT only and has the functionality you'd expect. VM don't own the OLTs so have to rely on Nexfibre to provide an API and they manage CPE over TR-069 on the cable network with basic stats pulled via SNMP, both of these requiring an IP address.

In reply to a post by aidanh:

Why can't they assign some internal management address to the hub for management purposes (on a private VLAN that hopefully doesn't collide with the customers LAN)? I think they could support modem mode if they really wanted to, they just don't care enough to implement it properly.

Up until recently all the XGSPON punters were on someone else's network. VM receive a single VLAN via VPWS per customer.