New FTTP install - No service for 9 days and counting

Hi all,

Long story (hopefully) short, my parents ordered the FTTP 100Mbps package based on my recommendation because it's both faster and cheaper than the (NowTV) VDSL package they were on. Unfortunately ever since the Openreach engineer finished the physical install 9 days ago they've had no Internet and no phone. The ONT appears fine and has all the same lights lit up as my working one, but the router simply flashes red indefinitely

I live 200 miles away so haven't been able to do much myself, but the Openreach engineer has been an absolute gem and spent multiple hours out of his own time over multiple days trying to get them connected to no avail. They've been into their local Vodafone shop, in which the manager spent a couple of hours on the phone to support but ultimately never called back with an update, and I've badgered them myself via Twitter and live chat. All that ever seems to happen in every case is that the L1 support person will insist that they've found the issue at their end, and if we just wait for 2-24 hours before rebooting the router then all will be good. Of course it doesn't work, but by that time we're back to square one going through the same support script over and over again.

I'm going down there on Friday myself - a forced day off when I really can't afford to take one, and a 400 mile round trip - armed with a laptop, some ethernet cable and a couple of spare routers, hopefully to get to the bottom of it once and for all. Hence my question to you all is: Is there anything I should know going in?

Is there an admin page for the Vodafone router for me to check the settings? (My gut feeling is that they've supplied it with a generic DSL config).

Is there anything specific that I can mention to support that might kick them into gear?

And what kind of settings should I be applying to my spare routers to try and get a connection with those?


Much thanks for any pre-emptive assistance!

Is there anything specific that I can mention to support that might kick them into gear?

Tell them the automatic compensation payments are currently at £52.50 and ratcheting up by the day…

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Is there anything specific that I can mention to support that might kick them into gear?

Tell them the automatic compensation payments are currently at £52.50 and ratcheting up by the day…

It always works with Virgin, even if they never pay up!!!!

Thanks for the link. I think it's actually more like £157.50 at this point because they were supposed to install on the 5th. They delayed it by two days (so mum had to cancel her birthday day out), and then an engineer showed up briefly, grumbled about needing a cherry picker to get up the telegraph pole, and then just vanished off the face of the Earth! It was another two weeks wait for another engineer appeared to actually finish the job. I said it was a long story!

Though regardless of any automatic compensation, when this is all taken care of I fully plan to put in a formal complaint to get my own fuel and other expenses back.

If the lights are on okay on the ONT then physically all appears fine.

Is the router a new router from Vodafone? Assuming it is, you should be able to log in to the router and see the status and find out why it isn't connecting to Vodafone. It is very likely trying to log in but failing to connect. I've had this before with another ISP where the log in wouldn't work and the ISP needed to re-setup the account again, then it started working.

Things to check. Make sure you try a different Ethernet cable and make sure they are plugged in correctly and in the right port on the router. Trying other routers might be helpful, do you have the Vodafone PPP credentials? Other than that, not much else you can do really and it is either a faulty router or a setup issue at Vodafone.

I've been through similar issues with my parents during lockdown, trying to sort something out on the phone is a nightmare especially when the parents are not technical. Good luck.

In reply to a post by Noiz:

I'm going down there on Friday myself - a forced day off when I really can't afford to take one, and a 400 mile round trip -

If there is good 4G signal at your parents, phone tethering for internet connection and a remote access tool such as Teamviewer may save you a long trip. You can take control of their computer and have direct access to the router for setup and diagnostics.

Amjad.

Yeah it's a new router, fresh out of the box. On the one hand I hope it's something super simple like this, whereas on the other hand driving 400 miles for a 5 minute fix that Vodafone themselves couldn't fix in 10 days would be a real kick in the teeth!

I don't have the PPP credentials. I did Google it yesterday and it looks like the username is fairly simple and based on the phone number, possibly with no password? But then there was mention of needing a VLAN ID, which might vary depending on region? I'll probably need to call them up.

Have you double checked the Ethernet cable from the ONT is connected into the WAN port of the router, this is the Blue port. It will fit into the other ports for LAN of course as they are the same connectors, but will not work. Do not assume the BT engineer checked this.

I find it helpful to believe nothing you are told on the phone (when helping remote parents!). If possible get them to take a picture of everything plugged in from the back of the router and a picture of the ONT and send it to you as you may spot the issue immediately. An Ethernet cable fresh out the box is unlikely to be faulty, not impossible, but unlikely. Double check they haven't plugged the router into the master socket as it was with their previous ISP.

VLAN IDs shouldn't be needed for FTTP. Good luck.

Vodafone VLAN ID on openreach is 101, not that that matters as you can't access these settings from any gui - automatic provisioning and all that. As this router is remote to you all I can suggest is getting your folks to reset the router by holding in the recessed reset button next to the power button for 15 seconds and see what happens. After this reset it should take less than 15 minutes for the router to connect to the provisioning server and be programmed up with the correct PPPoE login.

Edited by Ripshod (Thu 05-May-22 20:13:35)

I'd second trying a full reset on the router to try and make it get re-provisioned.

If you're trying another router you can get the PPPoE credentials from Voda webchat/customer service - I'm guessing a Voda router may be needed at least once to get the creds into the provisioning server/billing/support systems.

Thanks for that, I've been trying the VLAN as 911 as that seemed to be what the Google results were saying. I just logged on to post my latest update and saw your reply so I'll try the router reset and alternate VLAN tomorrow.

In the meantime, I got to my parents earlier this evening and have spent the last few hours tinkering. I got the login details from live chat and have tried both an Asus and Fritzbox router but neither of them want to connect, with both giving PPPoE timeout errors.

My current suspicion lays with the fibre itself, as the engineer has put in some very sharp angles to route it around a door frame, but the ONT seems quite happy, with the PON light a solid green and the LOS light off as they're supposed to be. Still, the engineer that did the install at my house insisted that such angles weren't possible and mounted the ONT on the same wall that the fibre comes in from. Maybe he's lazy or maybe he has a point!

I fear that tomorrow I'll probably be on the phone having the blame passed to Openreach, who won't be able to come out for another week, and I'll end up leaving here no further along than before I came...

I've been trying the VLAN as 911 as that seemed to be what the Google results were saying. I just logged on to post my latest update and saw your reply so I'll try the router reset and alternate VLAN tomorrow

There is no user assignable VLAN setting on the Openreach network (unlike the CityFibre network where the confusion may be stemming). Do not set anything for the VLAN in the router. This is all done by the ONT.

It sounds more like an account / authentication error. If the ONT is fully online then physically there is not a connectivity issue.

Ah right, well I tried both routers without a VLAN first and they wouldn't connect then either, just the PPPoE timeout, which is why I started to suspect the physical fibre as surely an authentication issue would say as much as opposed to just timing out. A timeout to me suggests that it's not able to connect to the endpoint in any way .

Anyhoo, I've done a reset on the Vodafone router this morning and there's been no change. Time to get on the phone I suppose.

In reply to a post by Noiz:

Ah right, well I tried both routers without a VLAN first and they wouldn't connect then either, just the PPPoE timeout, which is why I started to suspect the physical fibre as surely an authentication issue would say as much as opposed to just timing out. A timeout to me suggests that it's not able to connect to the endpoint in any way .

Anyhoo, I've done a reset on the Vodafone router this morning and there's been no change. Time to get on the phone I suppose.

It won't be a physical issue with the fibre, as a tight bend wouldn't cause such symptoms, but it could still be an issue on Openreach's side.

If it a Nokia ONT connected to a Huawei headend it needs a firmware update before any PPP session will work. It usually happens within a few minutes of the PON light going on for the first time, but now and again will have to be pushed through manually.

Also if the circuit hasn't been built correctly on the Openreach systems, it will not allow PPP until resolved.

I would hope the engineer has made the relevant phone calls to check all is correct with regards to these above.

ONT registration (with the OLT) is done as part of the initial power on sequence. There is no new firmware update on the ONT per se, as part of this sequence. The Headend OLT needs to be configured (i.e. be licensed from the OLT manufacturer and have the appropriate interoperability file(s) to accept the third-party manufacturer ONT onto the PON) as part of the Openreach provisioning process to register and accept onto the PON the particular manufacturer ID/serial number of the ONT.

On a Huawei ONT the first eight characters of the serial number (in Hex) will be 48575443 which equates to "HWTC" in text. This is the vendor / manufacturer ID. The last eight characters in the serial number uniquely identify the ONT. On a Nokia ONT the first 4 characters (in alphanumeric) are "ALCL" (short for Alcatel) and again the last eight characters uniquiquly identify the ONT.

These are the only two elements required for registration on Openreach (the ONT network registration password is not used by Openreach) - which is why if one is capable, you can spoof an existing PON-registered ONT vendorID/serial number and swap the ONT.

If you're interested the ONT registration sequence is explained here on the Huawei forum.

Edit: if the ONT has light but is not authenticated on the PON correctly then the LOS light will be OK (not red) but the PON LED will either be blinking or off completely. If the PON light is solid green, then there is a physical connection and the ONT is correctly configured.

ONT light sequences are explained here for the benefit of the OP

Edited by Pheasant (Sun 08-May-22 13:19:35)

Well, I spent a few hours on the phone talking to a lady who insisted that she'd escalated to case to "the back office" as a high priority, but wouldn't let me speak with anyone in this team, and couldn't tell me what any of the case notes from previous escalations said. She refused to let me speak to anyone other than her and promised a call back from an unnamed manager that never materialised. Ultimately it was more of the same empty promises of "wait 24 to 72 hours" and assurances that someone would call back with an update.

In the end we just scrapped the whole thing, cancelled the service while making sure there would be no early cancellation fee (another hour on the phone just to do that) and signed up to Zen, with me as a named contact. It might be that Zen activation day comes and it still doesn't work, but at least then we'll know it's definitely an Openreach issue, and the people on the phone will be knowledgable enough to get it rectified/escalated quickly.

Then we registered a formal complaint, outlining that we wanted the automatic compensation as a refund along with some extra thrown in for stress, travel expenses etc (always good to have things for them to negotiate over) and I came home.

I'm somewhat convinced that they're going to discard my parents' phone number back into the wild as part of the cancellation despite their insistence that they wouldn't, but either way it'll just be good to be shot of them.

Moral of the story: You get what you pay for, and don't pay for Vodafone.

In reply to a post by troublegum:

In reply to a post by Noiz:

Ah right, well I tried both routers without a VLAN first and they wouldn't connect then either, just the PPPoE timeout, which is why I started to suspect the physical fibre as surely an authentication issue would say as much as opposed to just timing out. A timeout to me suggests that it's not able to connect to the endpoint in any way .

Anyhoo, I've done a reset on the Vodafone router this morning and there's been no change. Time to get on the phone I suppose.

It won't be a physical issue with the fibre, as a tight bend wouldn't cause such symptoms, but it could still be an issue on Openreach's side.

It's possible to stop a connection's throughput if it's bent in half - but you are right the light won't go out

In reply to a post by Noiz:

Moral of the story: You get what you pay for.

Amen! and I hope Zen are better for them - I assume with the ONT in place it's a simple affair to switch?

In reply to a post by Username26:

It's possible to stop a connection's throughput if it's bent in half - but you are right the light won't go out

If you bend a fibre too far past limit the power level at the receiver can end up being below its minimum sensitivity in which case you'll get an LOS light.

Bending fibre increases loss over it and apart from a tiny power range fibre either works perfectly or you're offline. If you've no throughput you've LOS.

You’re right, though the fibre used in the main for the internal connection is typically specified as “bend insensitive” (ITU-T G.657 grades). Though it’s still very much possible to ruin it!

Any claims you see that fibre has a higher tensile strength than steel, should also be taken with a pinch of salt, as it’s not that hard to ruin it by pulling it with too much force.

In summary should be treated with respect if you want it to maintain its total internal reflection properties - that is work 😂

Hi, I've been reading this post and wondered what the eventual outcome of it all was.

OpenReach have done their work on our street and it's confirming on their checker that 1Gbps is available. It's been saying this for about three weeks now, but when I try to order it via my current ISP (BT) it's only saying FTTC is available (as are several of the others I checked with...)

However, Vodafone is saying that it IS available - and at the said speed. However, I've a friend who lives fairly near to me, who's recently had fttp and had some issues with Voda too....I just wondered how it all ended for you, was it there fault?

Well, as expected and despite their promises to the contrary, Vodafone did of course release their phone number back into the wild so they were forced to get a new one. And yes, the issue was entirely a Vodafone one. Zen activation day came, and while there was a small issue with the router (needed to login, set a language and reboot), once that was taken care of the connection came straight up at full speed.

I'm the end, after a bit of back and forth on the complaint case they got a full refund, along with the "automatic" compensation covering the entire period they were offline - not just to the Vodafone cancellation date, plus some extra on top for the stress caused. While it was tempting to insist they cover my travel expenses, I really only put that in so they'd have something to negotiate against and it was long past time to put the whole thing to bed. I think they got about £350 all in.

So while I can't advise you not to go with Vodafone if they're the only option, I'm not sure I'd want to take that risk. Have you tried calling Zen and explaining the situation? Their staff are very good and they may be able to force an order through at their end.

Edit: Oh, I forgot to mention the fun they had returning the Vodafone router. It got delivered back to them along with a letter threatening to charge them if it wasn't returned! We had to add to the complaint to get them to arrange a courier to collect it. Very reluctant at first, insisting it couldn't be done, but they eventually relented.

AND THEN they sent invoices for the long since cancelled service for the next couple of months demanding immediate payment. Can't remember exactly what happened there but we got it resolved somehow. You couldn't make it up.

Edited by Noiz (Wed 21-Sep-22 08:48:53)

Thanks for the reply, glad it was eventually sorted - but what a palava! It sounds like vodafone are trying to take TT's title as the most inept CS team out there, but at least TT's actual service is usually pretty good.

With your story having a lot of similarities to my friends' troubles - promising faithfully to call back, and not doing so, "you've been moved to highest priority" etc etc - I've decided to hang fire until whatever database the other ISP's are getting their info from, is updated to show the upgrade work has infact been done.

On Openreach's list of fibre ISP's they give, most of them say only FTTC is available, but Zen were one that also confirmed it's available - but only at 300mbps, not the 1Gbps which we'd like to have

And yes, the issue was entirely a Vodafone one. Zen activation day came, and while there was a small issue with the router (needed to login, set a language and reboot), once that was taken care of the connection came straight up at full speed.

Did Zen use the existing wiring that voda used (with the tight angles around the doors) too?

Thanks

Yeah it was just a standard switch to go to Zen. No engineer visit, used all the existing tight angled cabling. No issues at all.

I'd definitely give Zen a call and see if they can force a 1Gb order through.