Power Cuts and Digital Voice aka VoIP

Elsewhere on this forum, discussions take place on UPS solutions for VoIP. It seems that for about £100 you can have the assurance of continued use of Digital Voice for around 24 hours and for most of the time, that is more than adequate for infrequent, short duration, power cuts but what about beyond that when exceptional weather conditions hit? This situation has been highlighted with this news item: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-59564480.

If the link doesn't work it talks about power cuts caused by Storm Arwen highlighted a potentially lethal problem in the home phone network's digital transformation. Traditional landlines are being phased out in favour of broadband-enabled phones reliant on electricity. As hundreds of thousands of households across northern England lost power, people in remote areas without a mobile reception were left unable to call for help.

Now I accept that POTS are well past their EOL with increasing maintenance necessary and the ever increasing costs of the real estate of telephone exchanges, This is compounded by a massive shift of calls away from the landline to the mobile network. Well it is reasonable for VoIP to take on the role for those desiring a traditional phone service and for the consumer that is very often a huge financial benefit in embracing VoIP, that is until disaster strikes.

So how do you provide resilience for the once in a decade event that knocks your phone service out for a week or more, including your mobile phone service if indeed it was there in the first place? UPS doesn't seem to cut it for those circumstances. If an always on voice service is a necessity, say for a passenger lift, is the end user expected to equip himself with a portable generator? I love to know the answer to this one?

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

UPS doesn't seem to cut it for those circumstances. If an always on voice service is a necessity, say for a passenger lift

Your link has an extra . as part of the link, you may find this works.

As for the passenger lift example, e.g. in a domestic block of flats, there will be an equipment room so there would be place for a 24hr battery supply. Lifts are required (by law) to be maintained and such emergency call out services would have to be part of this service.

The Cumbria example where there is no mobile reception I thought was also being looked at by Government. I'm surprised that when there are power cuts due to trees falling through power lines, they don't also take out the phone lines. In rural areas often sharing the same poles.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

The Cumbria example where there is no mobile reception I thought was also being looked at by Government. I'm surprised that when there are power cuts due to trees falling through power lines, they don't also take out the phone lines. In rural areas often sharing the same poles.

Many other areas have no mobile coverage. There are certainly sections of Swaledale in North Yorkshire which have no coverage from any network, commercially it is not a viable proposition.

Phone services can share poles with LV mains services (230/400V) to premises, not the HV (11/20/33kV) distribution which took the brunt of the recent damage.

In reply to a post by tdw42:

Phone services can share poles with LV mains services (230/400V) to premises, not the HV (11/20/33kV) distribution which took the brunt of the recent damage.

Thanks, the pictures show the lower voltage cabling, but can't trust those

Its difficult because at some point in very long term power disruptions, whatever you provide is going to run out...of battery, of petrol/diesel, etc.

The only sustainable long term approach would be to perhaps have something like a small solar panel, that topping up a small lead-acid storage battery. That could, even on a cloudy winters day (or several if its sized appropriately) provide enough juice for some basic CPE/router/phone etc.

I have done the off-grid solar thing a few time now and it works fine, as long as the loads aren't too high compared to the solar you're able to capture.

The low voltage power lines to our house come underground, not sure how the step down transformer a few hundred yards down the road is fed.
Having a motorhome with 150Ah of batteries and a solar panel, we have some resilient if things turn really bad, although the solar doesn't produce much at this time of year.
Are you ready for a surprising answer to future resilience? Well that's an electric car! If it's got a good size battery and V2H or V2L, you can keep your phone going for weeks, you can even power your home for days, and if a charger is within say 50 miles, you could power you home indefinitely by shuttling back and forth every couple of days!

In reply to a post by burble:

Are you ready for a surprising answer to future resilience? Well that's an electric car!

Assuming you have a drive to park it and keep it plugged in. Those of us in flats are kinda losing out again

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by burble:

Are you ready for a surprising answer to future resilience? Well that's an electric car!

Assuming you have a drive to park it and keep it plugged in. Those of us in flats are kinda losing out again

Ah well, bike and a dynamo it is then. 😝

I’m amazed that Ofcom has allowed BT/OR to move forward with their plans without ensuring that access to 999 services is maintained. UPS/Battery backup simply does not cover this type of incident. POTS could maintain cover as long as the phone line was intact and the exchange had power but VOIP offers nothing. No power at the customer means no 999 cover now. OR apparently can’t get enough of the necessary batteries and Ofcom assumed power cuts would be less than 1 hour and that 2G coverage would be available. Both have now been proved incorrect in these storm damaged areas.

My home was badly affected by the storm of 1987 and lost power for many days. We only lost the phones for a few hours once the batteries there died but only until a generator was then brought in to power the exchange. No mobiles in those days either.

Have Ofcom and OR misunderstood the real risk, and are their assumptions just based upon bad data? Will there now need to be a rethink on the VOIP rollout and transition to fibre only circuits? It seems a bit odd to me that such an obvious thing has been missed or ignored.

And at present many cars can charge a phone via USB.

My experience is that when the power goes down in a rural area due to wind the phone lines go down as well.

Certainly they were restoring both at the same time in N England and Scotland so it didn't really matter whether it was VOIP or PSTN.

MercuryRH2

OFCOM had no choice. The PSTN would fail completely fairly soon or the costs would go so high no-one would use it and it would then fail by default As a 1984-95 computer based system running 24/365 it is actually a miracle it will last to 2025. They have been taking the older parts out for 9 years now and cannibalising for spares for the parts left working.

In reply to a post by MercuryRH2:

I’m amazed that Ofcom has allowed BT/OR to move forward with their plans without ensuring that access to 999 services is maintained.

They could do that, but the costs to run a service that 80% of people are not using would mean having to launch "emergency phone" for £100 a month per customer. I don't see it taking off, do you?

A lot of fuss about nothing. A basic easy to operate mobile phone and sim would be cheaper for the elderly and less well off than a BT landlind per month. Numbers that folks cling to can be ported.

In reply to a post by professor973:

A lot of fuss about nothing. A basic easy to operate mobile phone and sim would be cheaper for the elderly and less well off than a BT landlind per month. Numbers that folks cling to can be ported.

And where there is no mobile signal, your solution would be?

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

As for the passenger lift example, e.g. in a domestic block of flats, there will be an equipment room so there would be place for a 24hr battery supply. Lifts are required (by law) to be maintained and such emergency call out services would have to be part of this service.

My apartment block has no equipment room for the lift. Nor is there a reliable mobile signal. Kind of stuffed aren't we despite what the law says?

In reply to a post by MercuryRH2:

Have Ofcom and OR misunderstood the real risk, and are their assumptions just based upon bad data? Will there now need to be a rethink on the VOIP rollout and transition to fibre only circuits? It seems a bit odd to me that such an obvious thing has been missed or ignored.

Ofcom may possibly be persuaded to increase the level of service truly vulnerable customers may need provision for power interruptions.

They may also be wise to look at extending the backup provision that mobile operators need to have for cell sites that serve otherwise remote communities and villages, as that is the primary method of backup communications when lines are down or the power goes out, for large and geographically disperse numbers of people. So any additional investment there to provide greater autonomy to mobile coverage would be of wide reaching benefit.

I don't think it will however make a hint of difference to altering either the dates or scope of the WLR withdrawal (PSTN shutdown) or the FTTP rollout.

Edited by Pheasant (Mon 13-Dec-21 21:00:03)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Its difficult because at some point in very long term power disruptions, whatever you provide is going to run out...of battery, of petrol/diesel, etc.

The only sustainable long term approach would be to perhaps have something like a small solar panel, that topping up a small lead-acid storage battery. That could, even on a cloudy winters day (or several if its sized appropriately) provide enough juice for some basic CPE/router/phone etc.

I have done the off-grid solar thing a few time now and it works fine, as long as the loads aren't too high compared to the solar you're able to capture.

I like your ideas here which in the grand order of things is quite a cheap option. All existing hardware remains, just the need to have a few solar panels, the very basic broadband service, an ATA and, as you say a small lead-acid storage battery. Anyone care to produce a shopping list for this solution?

For those that are unaware, the lifts communication pack sends a daily data stream back to base of error codes generated over the last 24 hours (if any) and when the entrapment button is pressed a voice call is established to a remote monitoring station. Once the call is established it remains open until the incident is closed.

The same as yours wnen phone lines down

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

In reply to a post by professor973:

A lot of fuss about nothing. A basic easy to operate mobile phone and sim would be cheaper for the elderly and less well off than a BT landlind per month. Numbers that folks cling to can be ported.

And where there is no mobile signal, your solution would be?

Indeed, it has caused me some amusement over the years when OR engineers needed to find a signal when trying to fix our old FTTC, sometimes they are in luck with holding phone out the window, other times they can't get a signal in our road! Earlier this year when TTB cut off our landline I needed to receive call from doctor, with no wifi calling down the FTTP I had to drive couple of miles to find a reliable signal 😡
The answer to this would be expansion of mobile network, or at least infilling the gaps, there's been all sorts of talk, but not seen much action for this.

looks like most here have not heard of the small generator for backup. Not expensive and a big earner on long outages for local freezers, but of course the anoracks will keep this rolling what ever the suggestion despite mobiles with 10 amp batteries running for a week.

Tell me what devices (CPE/router/ATA etc) you need stood up (rough power draw if you know) + the duration of autonomous run (no charging).

The key items would be a 12V deep-cycle/leisure battery, a regular 12V main smart charger (a CTEK for instance), connectors, fuses and wiring.

For indy charging from the mains you need a sufficient solar panel and MPPT controller - sized pessimistically as winter storms never happen when there are bright sunny summers days.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Elsewhere on this forum, discussions take place on UPS solutions for VoIP. It seems that for about £100 you can have the assurance of continued use of Digital Voice for around 24 hours and for most of the time, that is more than adequate for infrequent, short duration, power cuts but what about beyond that when exceptional weather conditions hit? This situation has been highlighted with this news item: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-59564480.

A little bit of research reveals that the featured village, actually has no FTTP or FTTC service at the exchange, so in that particular story the resident almost certainly has a mains powered DECT phone, and no 'ordinary' phone to plug in. It's something that would have happened 20 years ago. Of course, it's the same brewing problem that Digital Voice etc will have

https://availability.samknows.com/broadband/exchange...

Edited by broadbandjockey (Tue 14-Dec-21 09:06:31)

In reply to a post by broadbandjockey:

A little bit of research reveals that the featured village, actually has no FTTP or FTTC service at the exchange

I believe Samknows data is long out of date.

I have VoIP (although I only use for incoming calls) with UPS - that works fine, except for the fact that I use 4G broadband, and my UPS lasts a lot longer than the cell tower's UPS, so in prolonged power cuts (>40 minutes) I have no broadband or mobile phone coverage.
The whole broadband infrastructure is a lot more fragile than the old POTS system, and nobody wants to pay the price for the expected resilance.

I concur. If the industry and Ofcom are pushing mobile as the primary means of backup comms, especially in quite isolated rural areas that are particularly liable to long duration supply faults - then in these places - mobile masts should have equivalent backup provisions to the main handover exchanges or POP sites; 45 minutes autonomy is a joke if faults can typically last several hours or exceptionally days - a farcical backup.

This doesn’t mean every mobile mast site in the country needs a generator - but it’s not beyond the wit of man to plot the places that have a well worn record of supply interruptions due to adverse weather and tree damage.

Even if you were able to contact the emergency services in these circumstances, I understand that once the Emergency Services Network (ESN) is in operation they will be unable to communicate with their people as the ESN is embedded in the mobile phone network and Ministerial sign-off has been requested for maintained power for the base stations beyond the couple of hours or so of battery back-up not to be provided. The current TETRA system, which will be retired, does have maintained power but, being a low data rate UHF system, requires many fewer base stations.

Unfortunately the government at all levels is utterly hopeless at IT procurement.

It’s well documented how much over the odds the government has paid Motorola to run the existing system - but at least it does what it says on the tin.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

It’s well documented how much over the odds the government has paid Motorola to run the existing system - but at least it does what it says on the tin.

I also read that the TETRA base station technology had gone end of life and would not be supportable. So hardware had to be replaced, and the Govt took the option to move to an LTE based system with the advantages of data which TETRA didn't support and much lower cost of run due to the volume deployed globally. Not bad ideas. Rollout has taken much longer than I think expected!

Doesn't TETRA run at 450 MHz ? I assume there is limited LTE equipment made for this band. I also doubt there is any spare spectrum to run LTE & TETRA together on the band. So transition would be harder.

These days a large number of people with copper phone lines only have cordless phones , which also don't work in a power cut as the base station requires power so the changeover to voip is not that much of a change.
Some might have an old corded phone hiding away in a cupboard somewhere, but even my parents haven't had a corded phone for ~10 years. My mother does have a basic mobile which is always turned off and my father has a cheap smartphone but hasn't a clue what he is doing with it.

In reply to a post by MercuryRH2:

My home was badly affected by the storm of 1987 and lost power for many days. We only lost the phones for a few hours once the batteries there died but only until a generator was then brought in to power the exchange. No mobiles in those days either.

We lost power for a few days. We possibly had hot food by using our camping equipment. The phone did not work for 5 weeks. I have often wondered about having a generator as that would allow me to run the boiler, have some lights on and maybe watch TV and use a computer.

Bearing in mind that there are numerous pictures of wooden electricity poles in the middle of a field that are snapped. These are snapped because the distribution companies having been privatised took the decision that it is cheaper to wait for the poles to fail in a storm than proactively inspect and replace them. Then comes along a storm that was not particularly severe not particularly worse than Hurricane Bawbag almost exactly 10 years earlier or the stronger Cyclone Andrea less than a month later.

I would note that the gas network manages to be all underground and mostly immune from storm damage (if it passes near or under a river you could get scouring that exposed the pipes but that is exceptionally rare) and is not exactly mega expensive as a result.

A resilient electrical network is perfectly possible. However expect privatised distribution companies to put profits first. Also expect them to concentrate their spending in the south east of England.

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

I would note that the gas network manages to be all underground and mostly immune from storm damage (if it passes near or under a river you could get scouring that exposed the pipes but that is exceptionally rare) and is not exactly mega expensive as a result.

Yes, but there are many more premises which have no access to mains gas (or water or sewage for that matter) than those with no access to mains electricity. The cost of buried infrastructure is substantially more, the gas networks choose not to provide service https://www.nongasmap.org.uk/

You're right in that the DNO's could do more on proactive maintenance in many situations. However to @tdw42's point you can't simply wave a magic wand and just tell them to bury all the existing infrastructure. The cost would be stratospheric.

Many would argue we'd be better focusing our attention and scarce funds on getting to net zero generation.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

It’s well documented how much over the odds the government has paid Motorola to run the existing system - but at least it does what it says on the tin.

I also read that the TETRA base station technology had gone end of life and would not be supportable. So hardware had to be replaced, and the Govt took the option to move to an LTE based system with the advantages of data which TETRA didn't support and much lower cost of run due to the volume deployed globally. Not bad ideas. Rollout has taken much longer than I think expected!

Doesn't TETRA run at 450 MHz ? I assume there is limited LTE equipment made for this band. I also doubt there is any spare spectrum to run LTE & TETRA together on the band. So transition would be harder.

450 MHz...TETRA? Don't know.

Maybe we should all go back to CB's and VHF when armageddon comes a knocking

https://read.nxtbook.com/ieee/spectrum/spectrum_na_d...

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

450 MHz...TETRA? Don't know.

Wikipedia seems to show 380 MHz....

Airwave 	390.0125–394.9875, 380.0125–384.9875

Maybe we should all go back to CB's and VHF when armageddon comes a knocking

https://read.nxtbook.com/ieee/spectrum/spectrum_na_d...

Somewhere I have an ancient battery powered hand held CB radio from the early 2000s and it would make anyone born since 2010 laugh out loud compared to modern mobiles!

In some box, I have an old car mount one with an antenna in the loft, never did get that working again when I moved. Was a big of a laugh in the late 80s, the internet kinda replaced it. Nice link!

In reply to a post by professor973:

looks like most here have not heard of the small generator for backup. Not expensive and a big earner on long outages for local freezers, but of course the anoracks will keep this rolling what ever the suggestion despite mobiles with 10 amp batteries running for a week.

If you crane your neck and look upwards, can you see your tonsils?

Makes sense. I’ve got an area defined license for UHF on the farm, which is at 456 and 461 Mhz. We run our GNSS corrections over UHF.

Amateur Radio still going strong here. Moonbounce and TV a little beyond CB lol

Not everyone is capable of setting up and operating a generator safely - particularly the frail and elderly who are most at risk from losing phone lines. Also not every property has somewhere even a small portable generator could be sited

In the old days, if I'd lost power and phone, I could have gone down the road and used the phone box to keep in touch. These days the best I could do is go down the road and borrow a book from the phone box library - at least it would provide something to do while while waiting for power to be restored.

Tool

I work for a small telco and we have been buying in small ups's for routers and ata's.
Ofcom have told the telco and broadband providers it is their responsiblity to make sure vulnerable end users have a power back up.
When asked about obligations around FTTP (alt nets only, OR FTTP is lit from the exchange)) FTTC and FTTM cabinets and base stations staying powered during an outage, Ofcom imply it is the 'providers discression' there are no obligations. recently I have found out the EE/H3G 3/4g base near me has 2 hours runtime during a power cut, and my FTTC cab has 4 hours. in the event of a longer blackout I would lose broadband (including VOIP) and cellular even though I have my own generator. (My ADSL line would stay up, for now...) OR and the MNO's consider it unfeasible for them to provide longer power backup to their cab's and base stations. So folks you are on your own, as some of the people up north discovered recently, and its going to get worse as the migration to VOIP marches on, and dial tone from the battery and generator backed exchange goes.

Because everyone relies on being connected, social media etc, they feel a sense of loss when they lose that connection, people expect to get hold of people 24/7, so when they can't make calls, check email, FB, IG etc it will be interesting to see what Ofcom do to protect the consumer from this, technically its a bit challenge. My money would be on the MNO's being obligated to provide better and longer backup times at least for their major sites.

Large areas of Wales have non or poor mobile reception . Indeed where we used to live in Shropshire there was none much to the despair of BT engineers needing reception for tests. In a town we have had power cuts and loss of mobile reception but my old plug in phone could be used to call out (and get calls in). Having a brother with terminal cancer and needing an ambulance at times it would indeed be life threatening without a means to call help for him. We have friends in a Welsh valley wher the vally was coned into having fibre, the whole valley has no mobile reception at all and many are elderly. BT refuse to do anything and have even refused to/or unable supply the minimal battery units.

Edited by john7 (Sun 19-Dec-21 15:57:56)