Emergency phone in a lift

Hoping this might be the right forum to post a question on an Emergency phone in a lift. so please bear with me.

For a lift, the existing setup requires a PSTN line but come the end of the year PSTN is no longer an option. Neither would be swapping out the hardware so that a mobile phone service could be used as the reliability of the signal is very hit and miss, often with no signal at all.

It is mandatory to have a means to contact someone in a entrapment situation. How can this possibly be provided from 2027 onwards?

If the building is occupied 24/7 an alarm bell will suffice.

In reply to a post by Brunel:

If the building is occupied 24/7 an alarm bell will suffice.

Sadly not

Probably worth getting expert consultancy to ensure you meet the requirements.

But perhaps the analogue handset in the lift remains and where the line enters the building there is fitted a router that needs power. BT retail may sell a service of phone only using their digital voice brand without internet.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Probably worth getting expert consultancy to ensure you meet the requirements.

But perhaps the analogue handset in the lift remains and where the line enters the building there is fitted a router that needs power. BT retail may sell a service of phone only using their digital voice brand without internet.

Done that, but such "experts" are useless by suggesting that signal boosters will resolve the issue. Even if that was true, experience has shown that when the power goes down, the mobile network, if indeed is available, is either congested or his died completely.

In theory a 05/0.5 broadband service is available but not generally available. The ONT, router and ATA would need a UPS unit perhaps holding up power for say 24 hours. Perhaps I should mention there is a bank of three lifts each requiring a seperate number.

Edited by trolleybus (Sun 11-Jan-26 20:52:28)

You connect the lift car phone to something like

https://www.2n.com/en-GB/products/elevator-systems/2...

https://robustel.com/product/ev8100/

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Done that, but such "experts" are useless by suggesting that signal boosters will resolve the issue. Even if that was true, experience has shown that when the power goes down, the mobile network, if indeed is available, is either congested or his died completely.

In theory a 05/0.5 broadband service is available but not generally available. The ONT, router and ATA would need a UPS unit perhaps holding up power for say 24 hours. Perhaps I should mention there is a bank of three lifts each requiring a seperate number.

A single fibre connection will support more VoIP lines than you could shake a stick at. [Theoretically it could probably support a similar number of BT Digital Voice phones, but I have a suspicion the hardware to do this does not exist]. While mobile networks might saturate in a powerloss situation, I think that fibre is more likely to shed traffic.

So, I think you need battery backup for a fibre ONT and router and a VoIP adaptor plus phone for each lift, plus being sure that the ethernet for each phone goes back to the router or that there is battery backup for each ethernet switch along the way.

In reply to a post by DFScale:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Done that, but such "experts" are useless by suggesting that signal boosters will resolve the issue. Even if that was true, experience has shown that when the power goes down, the mobile network, if indeed is available, is either congested or his died completely.

In theory a 05/0.5 broadband service is available but not generally available. The ONT, router and ATA would need a UPS unit perhaps holding up power for say 24 hours. Perhaps I should mention there is a bank of three lifts each requiring a separate number.

Yep, that is a good solution but tb user jpm mailing is also food for thpught.

A single fibre connection will support more VoIP lines than you could shake a stick at. [Theoretically it could probably support a similar number of BT Digital Voice phones, but I have a suspicion the hardware to do this does not exist]. While mobile networks might saturate in a powerloss situation, I think that fibre is more likely to shed traffic.

So, I think you need battery backup for a fibre ONT and router and a VoIP adaptor plus phone for each lift, plus being sure that the ethernet for each phone goes back to the router or that there is battery backup for each ethernet switch along the way.

The short-term fix, especially if mobile signals are problematic, would be to switch to a BT pre-digial phone line which involves no changes at the user end.

Whilst many lift suppliers suggest switching to a 4G/5G based communications link I don't see how that can be compliant unless the carriers guarantee service for at least an hour in the event of a mains power failure - consider if an outage took out the power to your building and the mast providing service then anyone trapped in the lift due to the outge would be unable to make an emergency call. Even using SIMs which can roam across all UK networks would be problematic, especially if the mast is shared amongst operators.

Longer term FTTP should be OK. Ideally the lift communicator would provide a power-over-ethernet port and be configurable to use DHCP or PPPoE, and optionally a VLAN which is required by some ISPs, a power-over-ethernet to 12V converter at the ONT removes the need for separate backup power to that which the lift communicator already has. Failing that it may require a small router and a UPS solution, if the lift communicator lacks all of these features, which potentially has to be maintained separately depending on where the agreed demarcation point is.

In reply to a post by tdw42:

The short-term fix, especially if mobile signals are problematic, would be to switch to a BT pre-digial phone line which involves no changes at the user end.

Whilst many lift suppliers suggest switching to a 4G/5G based communications link I don't see how that can be compliant unless the carriers guarantee service for at least an hour in the event of a mains power failure - consider if an outage took out the power to your building and the mast providing service then anyone trapped in the lift due to the outge would be unable to make an emergency call. Even using SIMs which can roam across all UK networks would be problematic, especially if the mast is shared amongst operators.

Longer term FTTP should be OK. Ideally the lift communicator would provide a power-over-ethernet port and be configurable to use DHCP or PPPoE, and optionally a VLAN which is required by some ISPs, a power-over-ethernet to 12V converter at the ONT removes the need for separate backup power to that which the lift communicator already has. Failing that it may require a small router and a UPS solution, if the lift communicator lacks all of these features, which potentially has to be maintained separately depending on where the agreed demarcation point is.

I appreciate your contribution to this discussion which gives much food for thought.

One would hope that lift manufacturers and maintenance companies are better prepared that the telecare sector appears to be.
Whatever the technical solution I suspect the main issues will be to do with the demarcation point between the lift communicator (responsibility of the lift maintenenace company) and communications path (responsibility of building owner and/or building maintenenace company), and retrofitting more modern replacement communicators as mobile or VoIP adapters do not necessarily precisely replicate a PSTN connection (where does the responsibility lie if the communicator intermittently fails to connect, much opportunity for finger-pointing if the exact combination of adapter and communication haven't been tested/certified).

If I was designing this I would keep it as passive as possible - bring the fibre all the way to the machine room, install the ONT there, and connect the ATA to it. If we're mitigating against power loss then I'd rather have the entire lift hooked up to a UPS and configured to bring passengers to the nearest floor before opening the doors and then going out of service.

Products like the 2N EasyGate are supplied by Kone as their analogue switch-off mitigation so I'd be quite comfortable using it. Probably the better long-term solution is to go IP end-to-end so that the monitoring centre that you use has access to lift telemetry, live video etc. rather than just a voice call.

The lift industry should also be petitioning Openreach for a product to support this use case - with the installation marked as complex by default, the internal fibre cable to be coloured red and the jacket printed that it's an alarm circuit, and with a PON SFP available as an option so that the market can then build products to accommodate it.

Edited by jpm (Mon 12-Jan-26 16:34:07)

Here (acute hospital) the lift maintainers have retro-fitted call points in each lift car with (what must be, since they have no other connections) 4G/5G repeaters at the head of each lift shaft that connect back to their operations centre - enough to defeat the Faraday cage effect of the lift shafts and the fact that they're typically buried in the middle of buildings.

Hi,

In reply to a post by hunnymonster:

Here (acute hospital) the lift maintainers have retro-fitted call points in each lift car with (what must be, since they have no other connections) 4G/5G repeaters at the head of each lift shaft that connect back to their operations centre - enough to defeat the Faraday cage effect of the lift shafts and the fact that they're typically buried in the middle of buildings.

What commitment has been obtained from the 4G operators that their network will function in a power cut?

Is operation of the lift interlocked with the availability of a 4G signal and registration on the network (i.e. does the lift stop and open the doors if the signal is not present or someone hasn't paid the bill)?

I suspect that the industry needs to go through a learning curve because whilst 4G might be a solution, it might not be THE solution in many cases.

Did BT ever provide assurances for powering analogue phone lines for x hours in the event of exchange power loss, or is it just a thing that people took for granted because it could usually be relied upon?

Hi,

In reply to a post by jpm:

Did BT ever provide assurances for powering analogue phone lines for x hours in the event of exchange power loss, or is it just a thing that people took for granted because it could usually be relied upon?

Unless anyone can quote otherwise then no, I don't think they did, but in general interruption of the PSTN has never historically been an issue (with functionality uninterrupted by wider power failures) and it was generally taken seriously by BT. This is supported by a range of regulator supported remedies for service interruption (although not applicable to the timescales relevant here).

The mobile phone operators appear to have a slightly more laissez faire approach to service robustness, at least at a geographic level.

Most BT/Openreach telephone exchanges had/have some serious generator backup, whereas the cabinets supplying the local mobile masts clearly don't.

In reply to a post by PCJM40:

Most BT/Openreach telephone exchanges had/have some serious generator backup, whereas the cabinets supplying the local mobile masts clearly don't.

Had. Many smaller exchanges, even if the equipment is still there, it no longer is in use.

Whatever the technical solution I suspect the main issues will be to do with the demarcation point between the lift communicator (responsibility of the lift maintenenace company) and communications path (responsibility of building owner and/or building maintenenace company), and retrofitting more modern replacement communicators as mobile or VoIP adapters do not necessarily precisely replicate a PSTN connection (where does the responsibility lie if the communicator intermittently fails to connect, much opportunity for finger-pointing if the exact combination of adapter and communication haven't been tested/certified).

I agree with this.
In many large fairly recently built buildings, the copper feed from the DP to the NTE (the demarcation point, often in the lift motor room) was installed as the building was constructed. Following the same cable run to retro fit fibre in its place would be a very difficult thing to do.

There are SIM cards available that can use the signal from a number of networks which would give some backup. Payment card readers and, I believe, smart meter comms units use them.This is unlikely to help if shared masts are used but in urban locations a signal is usually available from more than one mast.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Had. Many smaller exchanges, even if the equipment is still there, it no longer is in use.

Thanks, wasn't aware of that.

You could use the existing phone but where it plugs into the ptsn network unplug from there and get a voip ata and plug the phone into that if it needs to be on in a powercut get a battery backup for it.

In our hospitals we are migrating the copper lines for the critical services (lifts, red phones) over to TTb who are keeping the copper lines running for 'several' more years. Simple solution until we have a proper replacement in place.

In reply to a post by comerford:

In our hospitals we are migrating the copper lines for the critical services (lifts, red phones) over to TTb who are keeping the copper lines running for 'several' more years. Simple solution until we have a proper replacement in place.

Do they have their own copper network?

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by comerford:

In our hospitals we are migrating the copper lines for the critical services (lifts, red phones) over to TTb who are keeping the copper lines running for 'several' more years. Simple solution until we have a proper replacement in place.

Do they have their own copper network?

Good question.

The post sounded like someone had been caught by pushy sales people.

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by comerford:

In our hospitals we are migrating the copper lines for the critical services (lifts, red phones) over to TTb who are keeping the copper lines running for 'several' more years. Simple solution until we have a proper replacement in place.

Do they have their own copper network?

In our area TTB use OR copper lines but unlike BT etc. will still provide a analogue phone, as I've mentioned on another thread, BT have/are migrating all phone lines in our area to digital, those people with copper phone only lines are now connected to digital at the exchange, whereas TTB are still using the copper all the way back to exchange.

TalkTalk are doing full MPF and providing analogue lines until the kit they have in the exchanges breaks, personally I think it's a waste of resources (time, money) to seek out a provider that will provide analogue phone lines for these sorts of purposes, the effort should be going into modern replacements.

In reply to a post by MHC:

Do they have their own copper network?

Unlikely, I would expect them to be using their existing LLU footprint. Openreach MPF and MPF + FTTC are still available unless served by an FTTP priority exchange which has reached stop sell, even then potentially available by exception.

TalkTalk (residential), and TalkTalk Busness, are now totally separate companies, so I don't know if their plans on digital are diverging.