Rural Broadband - The Land that BT Forgot!

I have been a lurker in the forums for years but here is my first post!

I am looking to change ISP. I have been with aol uk for four years and I do not think I need to say anything about their customer service. However, in the last few months they have moved me over to LLU without telling me as TT now have equipment in the exchange and they have also cut my speed. Before I was getting around 1mb fairly consistently but now most of the time it seems to be at 0.5 (although it went back up to 0.9 on Friday.

aol have told me:
1. My line cannot support any more than 0.5. I offer them four years of tt speedtests and they tell me the line cannot do more than 0.5.
2. When I tell them my upload speed is higher thanmy d/l speed they are inimpressed and say the line......
3. I ask for my MAC code and they offer me a guaranteed 3.5mb in return for more money and an 18 month contract.

I am waiting for my mac code and currently looking at Eclipse and Vivaciti.

Questions:

1. According to routerstats my d/l attenuation is 43db which according ti Kitz should give me about 7mb on LLU. How reliable is Kitz?
2. Eclipse (like most ISP's) say 2mb on non LLU. TT say 2.5 and Vivaciti say 2.7 but were quite happy with the kitz result and if it was higher then ok.
3. Should I consider LLU?
4. What is th actual impact of Vivaciti's throttling? They say "For the home 100 and surfwise variety there is a lower traffic priority during normal office hours (between 8am � 7:30pm weekdays) for peer to peer and newsgroup traffic (this includes video streaming), all other times are unaffected. " I could live with some prioritisation but not if they are virtually going to close off usenet! I use p2p rarely.
8. If I go to Vivaciti shold I move my phoneline to them to. If so why and if not why not?

Many thanks for your input.

wg

I will post my line stats shortly.

Line stats:

system Up Time 47:04:49


ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 898 kbps 967 kbps
Line Attenuation 43 db 13 db
Noise Margin 13 db 12 db

Up time suggests it is stable.

43dB should be around 6Meg for actual speedtests i.e. connect at 7Meg'ish. So kitz is reliable.

What speeds did you connect at before the move to LLU, I would suggest a change of ISP in the first instance, as AOL seem to be messing you about.

It is possible the slow speeds are partially down to wiring in your home, as well as the 12dB target margin that appears to be on your line, reducing the target to 6dB, will probably get you to 2 to 3Mbps. Which is still slow for your line length, thus time to look at the testing from the test socket.

Who is your phone line with at the moment?

The LLU question is less important than getting almost anywhere rather than where you are now. I like the way the same firm can tell you your line can't do more than 0.5Mbps in one breath, and in the next guarantee 3.5Mbps if you pay them more.

Which exchange is it please? The link to what samknows says would be good. The reason I ask is to see what else is available to you. Surfwise Variety runs on the TalkTalk Business Wholesale system and you may not fancy that. Though it does seem to be a lot better than TT itself, just as many non-LLU ISPs are better than BT Total.

I agree with MrSaffron that there seems to be a problem on your line, possibly at your end. If you could plug the router into the test socket, on the wall at the back in this pic, then take the stats again, we will know more about that. Just use the short ADSL cable of the router - no plug-in telephone extension cable to reach it.

With that attenuation, as he says on ADSL(1) around 7Mbps connection should be possible, with download speeds of 5-6Mbps. So "summat's oop!"

On (non-LLU or LLU) ADSL2+ you could perhaps even get another couple of meg above that.

So the stats from the test socket please , . That will tell us if you have a home wiring problem.

For what it's worth I'm with Eclipse (Home Select, monthly contract) and, for my connection, they use Tiscali LLU.

My downstream attenuation is around 45-46db, download connect is around 7900-8100, and a download speed of 6400-6800Kbps.

Upload attenuation is 25db, upload connect is 650-670, upload speed is 540-560Kbps. Cable distance - best guess - is around 3km.

[Edit for typos]

Edited by cheshire_man (Sun 27-Mar-11 13:51:51)

Thanks for the input - much appreciated. The link to the sam knows page is

As far as I know we don't have a master socket as per the picture. The house is a new build and is 4.5 years old. I have looked ror the master socket in the past and have found where the line comes into the house and what I believe to be the first socket in the loop but nothing like the picture. Just ordinary phone sockets. I have plugged the router in them before on a wi-fi connection and there seems to have been no difference. Is it worth doing it again, plugging the puter into the router instead of wi-fi and posting the stats? Very happy to if the info will be useful

My line rental is with BT and my calls with aol uk (yep....tt!).

The only LLU option is with tt or a wholesaler which is why I was looking at Vivaciti. I don't really mind if it is LLU or not as long as it gets me the best from the line.

The link is missing.

That sounds as though you have an external NTE5, scroll down to the bottom of this Kitz page.

Don't bother with a new test at this stage, but! -

Note what Kitz says about the ring wire. That looks a strange comment as if the ring wire isn't connected then T3 IDC would not be used.

I suggest you have a look inside your socket and tell us three things. Is there a wire to T3; what colours are all the connected wires; and is there more than one wire to each connected IDC terminal?

There's a fair chance the extension wiring by the builders is a load of garbage and that's why your speeds are bad .

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/NDWAT

Terminals 2, 3 & 5 appear to be connected.

T2: Blue
T3: Orange
T5: White

We had a good rummage around for an external box when we realised there was no internal one but have been unable to find one. We have traced where the wired come into the house and taken the grey bt housing there but there is nothing but wires there and no proper box like in the pic. It seems it is there more to shroud the wires than anything else.

The wiring of what I "think" is the master socket is here http://flic.kr/p/9tKXuQ and yes, some terminals appear to have more than one wire connected.

Edited by wildgoose1uk (Sun 27-Mar-11 18:26:17)

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btsockets.htm

Not quite sure what you mean by that. Is it external? Any chance of a pic?

Are those wires pure blue and pure white? It looks so from the picture. Not blue with bits of white and white with bits of blue?

It is external. The pix are here http://www.flickr.com/photos/13608264@N06/sets/72157...

You are right about the wires. Pure blue and pure white.

Thanks again for taking the time to help

Edited by wildgoose1uk (Sun 27-Mar-11 19:16:53)

Looks ok to me. You can probably remove the orage (T3) wire. That's the ring wire and is probably not needed (see Kitz's page).

Yes that would seem to be the Master socket. According to an electrical catalogue the 422 is an MK Logic Plus Master Socket and contains the surge protector and capacitor.

Now that we have ascertained which is the Master socket I thought it may be useful to redo the stats as Roberto described above.

System Up Time 00:22:53

00:22:38

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 1287 kbps 524 kbps
Line Attenuation 39 db 11 db
Noise Margin 12 db 12 db

The increased speed used to be fairly normal for this time of day on a router reboot.

Here's hoping I can sort this out with your help.

Cheers

wg

Carefully remove the connection on T3 at all sockets. See this page, even though your socket looks different.

Be careful not to disturb T2 and T5 as they do the work, and don't cut the T3 wires, just curl them up a bit so they can't touch anything that matters.

Do I need to do it on all sockets in the first instance or is it sufficient to do it on what we think is the master socket?

Normally sufficient on the master socket, but particularly where unsure of wiring layout, all sockets is worth doing

Right then. All the orange wires on all sockets have been disconnected (was a bit too eager on one extension socket and puled out another wire too but I can fix that when I get the little tool thing.

Line stats now as follows:

System Up Time 00:55:49

00:55:34

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 774 kbps 889 kbps
Line Attenuation 42 db 6.5 db
Noise Margin 12 db 12 db

Speed is now down as always haopens on a router reboot mid-afternoon. Not sure what to do next.

Your line attenuation has doubled, this usually indicates a move to ADSL2+

Not always and to explain to the layman, a 3dB change is equivalent to a halving or doubling of the actual signal level.

Line Attenuation 39 db 11 db
Noise Margin 12 db 12 db

To have downstream attenuation at over three times the upstream attenuation is unusual. Suggesting some odd fault somewhere.

This is all very odd.

I forgot we already had your stats. Are they all from the same socket? Attenuations:-

1) 43/13
2) 39/11
3) 42/6.5 (after the orange wire removal).

Are you using a plug-in phone extension cable in (1) and (3)?

Could this be aol traffic shaping? ie their way of trying to persuade me to switch to their platinum service?

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

Could this be aol traffic shaping? ie their way of trying to persuade me to switch to their platinum service?

No, traffic shaping doesn't affect attenuation.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

This is all very odd.

I forgot we already had your stats. Are they all from the same socket? Attenuations:-

1) 43/13
2) 39/11
3) 42/6.5 (after the orange wire removal).

Are you using a plug-in phone extension cable in (1) and (3)?

It is odd I agree. #1 was in an extension socket. #2 & 3 were in what I think is the master socket. It is normal for me to sync at higher speeds on a weekday morning and for it to reduce in mid-afternoon. I can't say the attenuation rates are likewise because I have never really monitored them.

It is curious though...... I had always put it down to aol and users per modem.

No extension cables are being used.

Edited by wildgoose1uk (Mon 28-Mar-11 14:38:00)

Just a few thoughts.
1. Do any of your sockets have a pair of the usual BT colour coded wires, probably White with a Blue stripe, and Blue with a White stripe, or are solid colours used throughout?
2. Do you only have one Master, with all the rest being secondary sockets?
3. When you are measuring the router stats have you ensured that nothing else is plugged into any of the sockets?

In reply to a post by alwall:

Just a few thoughts.
1. Do any of your sockets have a pair of the usual BT colour coded wires, probably White with a Blue stripe, and Blue with a White stripe, or are solid colours used throughout?
2. Do you only have one Master, with all the rest being secondary sockets?
3. When you are measuring the router stats have you ensured that nothing else is plugged into any of the sockets?

1. I saw the striped wires in the other sockets. Cannot remember it if was all sockets but in all probability it was.
2. I think so. I remember seeing other codes on the other socket which were different from the code that was earlier identified as being a master socket.
3. Just the phone. But stats with phone unplugged and router rebooted are:

System Up Time 00:01:33

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 717 kbps 970 kbps
Line Attenuation 41 db 13 db
Noise Margin 12 db 12 db

The phone is filtered?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The phone is filtered?

Yep, as is the router.

I don't think that is the master, or the wiring has been done wrong. The master should have a pair of incoming wires from BT and then extension wiring with probably 2 pairs.

That seems to show two cables with 3 wires, which isn't right if the incoming BT line is one of them.

Hopefully the BT or ex-BT engineers will agree that ideally two "striped" wires (the incoming BT pair) should directly connect to your Master socket, with the other cabling then feeding your extensions.
How about a photo of the sockets fed by striped wires plus their ident/catalogue numbers if possible? (If you have the MK Logic Plus Extension socket it's probably a K427).

Do you have a maplins near you?
I'm looking at this and I think if it was me I would like to find the socket you identified as the first on, not the colour wires coming into the house, remove the ext wires and just re-connect the 2 wires to t2 and t5 and take a look at the stats, this should give you a clean feed with all the other ext's removed. if it gives you the speed you expect then get a filtered face plate (I think ADSL nation do one that can fit a flush back box, others on here might tell you for sure)
Have you done a quiet line test on your phone?

In reply to a post by vivaciti:

Do you have a maplins near you?
I'm looking at this and I think if it was me I would like to find the socket you identified as the first on, not the colour wires coming into the house, remove the ext wires and just re-connect the 2 wires to t2 and t5 and take a look at the stats, this should give you a clean feed with all the other ext's removed. if it gives you the speed you expect then get a filtered face plate (I think ADSL nation do one that can fit a flush back box, others on here might tell you for sure)
Have you done a quiet line test on your phone?

Vivaciti.
We are attempting to ascertain where the incoming BT line is connected, so the colour of the pairs is important.
AFAIK no socket has yet been identified as the "first on" (sic). What has been established is that a master socket (MK Logic Plus) has cable with solid colours connected despite there apparently being BT colour coded pairs elsewhere on the internal wiring. Only when the wiring inconsistencies are sorted out is it worth looking at improved filtering.
Perhaps wildgoose1uk could comment whether my summary is correct.

Edited by alwall (Tue 29-Mar-11 09:36:22)

Looking at the pics that were posted this shows an external master then standard wires coming into the house from that to the first socket.
The EN will be able to see where the wires come into the house from the third picture just go to the other side of the wall and follow it from there to the first socket you come to.

No sign of an external NTE in any of those three pictures at http://flic.kr/p/9tKXuQ. I believe it's the replacement for the BT66 junction box
But I do agree if the master shown really is the 1st socket , then disconnecting all but the incoming pair (although I still query whether this is the builder's wiring rather than the dropwire) and retesting the router stats may give us some useful info.
I have to admit that, from the colours used, I'm wondering if drop wire cable has been used for some of the internal wiring!

I have traced the wiring from the external grey BT Box into the garage and directly up to the first floor which is the pix of the socket I posted.

I went into Maplins today but they wanted £6.50 for the plastic tool (I need it to fix the wire I accidentially took out!) so chose to order one from Amazon for £0.95! I will need to wait a few days but I really just could not bring myself to spend £6.50 on something that looks like it came from an airfix kit.

Today I have received my mac code from aol!!,,,,, Hurrah!!!! Are we in a position to know whether LLU or non LLU would be the better connection for me? Would I get an increase in speed? Is my wiring shot? What about the landline? Should I shift that from BT? Need to do something as the calls are with aol.

Cheers!

wg

I would hold fast on changing provider just yet, I come from an old school of diagnostic, only change one thing at a time, if you migrate and muck about with the wiring you wont know what fixed it (although I have a couple of quid on the issue being your wiring)
If you get the wiring sorted then LLU would see a better speed for you, if not then ADSL MAX (although you can still have LLU but with an ADSL1 profile so you miss out the DLM)

In reply to a post by vivaciti:

I would hold fast on changing provider just yet, I come from an old school of diagnostic, only change one thing at a time, if you migrate and muck about with the wiring you wont know what fixed it (although I have a couple of quid on the issue being your wiring)
If you get the wiring sorted then LLU would see a better speed for you, if not then ADSL MAX (although you can still have LLU but with an ADSL1 profile so you miss out the DLM)

I'll put a tenner on it being the wiring

wildgoose1uk, a quick peek inside the BT external junction box might be interesting, but just look at/photograph the wiring don't touch! At least that'll confirm the colours being used for the incoming pair and ensure that the housebuilder/electrician has done the job correctly.

I would get the landline back to BT unless it is very important to you not to. Move it away again if you wish at the the 12 month period.

As vivaviti says, just hang onto the MAC for a bit and try and see if you can get the wiring sorted.

LLU is in general better than non-LLU simply because it gets you away from the BT DLM, (IP Profiling and aggressive margin management). Whatever the speed, and it is highly unlikely to be lower on LLU even if it isn't a lot higher.

Hi, I say the picture has a telephone extension socket, it�s not the master socket.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13608264@N06/5564976044/

http://www.britishtelephones.com/wiring/socketwiring...

It's a master according to the MK Logic Plus datasheet http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/MK/...

That doesn't mean to say it is the BT master. In fact that sounds quite improbable.

In reply to a post by alwall:

It's a master according to the MK Logic Plus datasheet http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/MK/...

It's not wired as a master - there're 2 ring wires (orange) for a start.

See my previous comment

In reply to a post by alwall:

[Vivaciti.
We are attempting to ascertain where the incoming BT line is connected, so the colour of the pairs is important.
AFAIK no socket has yet been identified as the "first on" (sic). What has been established is that a master socket (MK Logic Plus) has cable with solid colours connected despite there apparently being BT colour coded pairs elsewhere on the internal wiring. Only when the wiring inconsistencies are sorted out is it worth looking at improved filtering.
Perhaps wildgoose1uk could comment whether my summary is correct.
[/quote]

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

That doesn't mean to say it is the BT master. In fact that sounds quite improbable.

I know, I'd love to nip round with an NTE5 and a reel of CW1308 !

In reply to a post by alwall:

See my previous comment

Yet you keep on saying it's a master, as if it was important. It's a red herring.

It is NOT a red herring, it's one part of the overall picture., which I have explained to you. Can you add anything useful which would help the OP sort out his possible wiring problem wihout being so offfhand with people?

In reply to a post by alwall:

It is NOT a red herring, it's one part of the overall picture., which I have explained to you. Can you add anything useful which would help the OP sort out his possible wiring problem wihout being so offfhand with people?

It's wired as an extension, so it being an MK Master socket is irrelevant. The master is probably external, imo, and that should be confirmed by the OP.

I'd agree with you if it wasnt for the OP saying it's the first socket after the external junction box (Non NTE type). Hopefully a few more pics of the internal wiring of the junction box and other sockets might clarify things. Otherwise we can all conjecture with insufficient facts to go on!

I'll put up some more photos in the morning. I know I have seen some striped wires but need ot check where. From memory I think it could be the master bedroom.

Could the buildeers really have been clever enough to think of putting the master socket in the master bedroom?

If it is that socket then that is the one I messed up on with the orange wire and pulled a (I think) blue/white striped wire out too. The socket no longer works but the other sockets work. I wonder if this could have caused the db change.

In reply to a post by alwall:

I'd agree with you if it wasnt for the OP saying it's the first socket after the external junction box (Non NTE type). Hopefully a few more pics of the internal wiring of the junction box and other sockets might clarify things. Otherwise we can all conjecture with insufficient facts to go on!

It is the closest socket to where the wire comes up through the floor from the garage but I suppose it is feasible that the builders did not follow a logical line.

I did another reboot this morning and the stats are:

System Up Time 00:02:05


ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 860 kbps 992 kbps
Line Attenuation 42 db 9 db
Noise Margin 12 db 11 db

The line att has increased from 6.5 to 9 but still less than it was before removing the orange wire.

In general, attenuation does not fluctuate. Maybe 0.1dB or 0.2dB between reconnections. The usual cause is a dodgy router, but in this case it may be a badly connected wire.

Can you borrow another router from anywhere to try, or do you have an old one that works?

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

I'll put up some more photos in the morning. I know I have seen some striped wires but need ot check where. From memory I think it could be the master bedroom.

Could the buildeers really have been clever enough to think of putting the master socket in the master bedroom?

If it is that socket then that is the one I messed up on with the orange wire and pulled a (I think) blue/white striped wire out too. The socket no longer works but the other sockets work. I wonder if this could have caused the db change.

I won't hazard a guess until we see your photos.
In my own BT installation a blue/white and white/blue pair run from the external junction box to the first socket, a master, which is an NTE5.
Hopefully the photos will enlighten those of us trying to help you with the wiring.
As Roberto says, the change in attenuation in your case may well be a symptom of faulty/mis wiring.
My plan would be to establish without doubt which is the first socket fed by the external junction box> Ensure that it is a Master "type" socket> Disconnect ALL cabling from it other than the incoming pair > Ensure you still have dial tone! > Connect router and check stats. Once broadband is sorted restore extensions one by one, keeping an eye on router stats

Edited by alwall (Wed 30-Mar-11 10:04:58)

The photos are on the same link as before at http://www.flickr.com/photos/13608264@N06/sets/72157...

I am getting more confused by the second.

On the pic with the blue and white wire not connected: This is the one I pulled out with the ring wire and am waiting for the tool to arrive to reinsert it.

Grateful as ever

The stats are a bit different with a different router:

DSL Connection Details
DSL Line (Wire Pair): Line 1 (inner pair)
Protocol: G.DMT2 Annex L
Downstream Rate: 939 kbps
Upstream Rate: 561 kbps
Channel: Interleaved
Current Noise Margin: 12.1 dB (Downstream) 12.0 dB (Upstream)
Current Attenuation: 46.5 dB (Downstream) 24.7 dB (Upstream)
Current Output Power: 17.2 dBm (Downstream) 12.2 dBm (Upstream)
DSLAM Vendor Information: Country: {0xB5} Vendor: {BDCM} Specific: {0x8A1}
PVC Info: 0/38
Internet Connection Details

Domain:
Maximum Transmission Unit (MTU): 1500
Gateway Ping: Successful
DNS Communication: Successful
Configuration Server Post: Waiting for DNS information

Hooray, a router that works!

But what is G.DMT2 Annex L ??

I would stick with this router for now. An occasional reboot to see how the attenuation behaves, if steady then it would show the other has a problem somewhere, or maybe just the wires to and from it weren't securely plugged in, but the attenuations now make much more sense.

With the other's attenuation readings being wrong, who knows what else wasn't right in its handling of the line.

What are the two routers?

Reach Extended G.Lite?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Hooray, a router that works!

But what is G.DMT2 Annex L ??

Good spot!

I haven't thought about the implications yet, but:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITU_G.992.3_Annex_L

Unlikely the other router was the same though, unless both have come across from France.

You just beat me to that one.

Isn't that going to restrict the available frequencies (max of 552 kHz).

How long is the OP's line ?

- Alex

The original one was a Netgear DG834Gv3 and the new one is a BT Homehub 2wire that I got off Ebay to see if it would give me a higher speed. It didn't so Ikept it in the cupboard as a spare...... perhaps fortunately!!

I'm not sure these modes can be auto-negotiated by the router, they may have to be set at the DSLAM. Someone else had a similar problem the other day. I think it tends to restrict the sync speed that can be attained.

Stats have fluctuated without reboot to:

DSL Connection Details
DSL Line (Wire Pair): Line 1 (inner pair)
Protocol: G.DMT2+ Annex A
Downstream Rate: 585 kbps
Upstream Rate: 910 kbps
Channel: Interleaved
Current Noise Margin: 12.2 dB (Downstream) 12.9 dB (Upstream)
Current Attenuation: 51.5 dB (Downstream) 25.8 dB (Upstream)
Current Output Power: 13.3 dBm (Downstream) 12.0 dBm (Upstream)
DSLAM Vendor Information: Country: {0xB5} Vendor: {BDCM} Specific: {0x8A1}
PVC Info: 0/38


d/s attenuation now 51.5...... not the way I wanted it to go!

Must have resynced though.
Very strange.

Have you found the master socket yet?

From the colour coding It looks as though data network cable has been used. That's fine (I use it myself for extensions) but it's still hard to tell which is the incoming pair from the BT junction box.
Once you've traced it through, try what I suggested in http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/which_isp/t/3986939... but with the "new" router.

seems to have stabilised at 51.5db. Is the ratio looking ok?

Any thought on the master socket and wiring situation in the pics?

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

seems to have stabilised at 51.5db. Is the ratio looking ok?

Any thought on the master socket and wiring situation in the pics?

Yes the ratio looks OK.

That isn't the master socket.

None of the pictures show a master socket - why?

A master socket should have something connected to terminal points A and B, and then an extension (or more than one extension) running of of different pins 2 and 5 (maybe with an orange on pin 3).

The key is seeing what is under the cover at http://www.flickr.com/photos/13608264@N06/5565147764...

From what one can see it looks like a grey cable enters the property, and this goes to a socket, which also has an extension running off the same IDC terminals to the extensions, i.e. you have a daisy chain configuration, with no actual master socket.

Whether this is causing you problems impossible to say without removing the daisy chain and just testing with minimal wiring present. The Annex L is unusual and not sure it is approved for UK use or not - so rare to see it, first time I've seen it.

I would recommend finding a router among your collection that lets you force the various ADSL modes and find a G992.1 Annex A ADSL over Pots mode.

Also if it were my property and in this state, I would be getting an NTE5 master socket and fitting it and tidying up the wiring too.

Are none of those photos showing the master socket? I have added another 4 photos showing the external wires.

I have uploaded photos of 4 sockets. If none of these are master sockets then there is one more downstairs which I had discounted due to it being probably the furthest away from where the wire comes in. It is also quite awkward to get at but not impossible.

If none of the four posted armaster sockets I can get in to it though.

Nice new pictures but alas the detail is missing, i.e. which wires on the grey cable connect to the black BT cable

No master sockets as I posted earlier.

AS MrSaffron says, can you remove the cobwebs?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13608264@N06/5573988822...

Can't see any jelly crimps inside the junction box. Where is the connection to the BT pair? We need a good photo of it.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

None of the pictures show a master socket - why?

A master socket should have something connected to terminal points A and B, and then an extension (or more than one extension) running of of different pins 2 and 5 (maybe with an orange on pin 3).

The key is seeing what is under the cover at http://www.flickr.com/photos/13608264@N06/5565147764...

From what one can see it looks like a grey cable enters the property, and this goes to a socket, which also has an extension running off the same IDC terminals to the extensions, i.e. you have a daisy chain configuration, with no actual master socket.

Whether this is causing you problems impossible to say without removing the daisy chain and just testing with minimal wiring present. The Annex L is unusual and not sure it is approved for UK use or not - so rare to see it, first time I've seen it.

I would recommend finding a router among your collection that lets you force the various ADSL modes and find a G992.1 Annex A ADSL over Pots mode.

Also if it were my property and in this state, I would be getting an NTE5 master socket and fitting it and tidying up the wiring too.

I don't understand the comment abotu Annex L. The stats I posted said Annex A unless I am misunderstanding something.

A previous post with different stats:

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

The stats are a bit different with a different router:

DSL Connection Details
DSL Line (Wire Pair): Line 1 (inner pair)
Protocol: G.DMT2 Annex L
Downstream Rate: 939 kbps
Upstream Rate: 561 kbps
Channel: Interleaved
Current Noise Margin: 12.1 dB (Downstream) 12.0 dB (Upstream)
Current Attenuation: 46.5 dB (Downstream) 24.7 dB (Upstream)
Current Output Power: 17.2 dBm (Downstream) 12.2 dBm (Upstream)
DSLAM Vendor Information: Country: {0xB5} Vendor: {BDCM} Specific: {0x8A1}
PVC Info: 0/38
Internet Connection Details

Domain:
Maximum Transmission Unit (MTU): 1500
Gateway Ping: Successful
DNS Communication: Successful
Configuration Server Post: Waiting for DNS information

Post deleted by BatBoy

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/which_isp/t/3986972...

In that post you were showing as using Annex L, but a latter post is showing Annex A.

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

Stats have fluctuated without reboot to:

DSL Connection Details
DSL Line (Wire Pair): Line 1 (inner pair)
Protocol: G.DMT2+ Annex A
Downstream Rate: 585 kbps
Upstream Rate: 910 kbps
Channel: Interleaved
Current Noise Margin: 12.2 dB (Downstream) 12.9 dB (Upstream)
Current Attenuation: 51.5 dB (Downstream) 25.8 dB (Upstream)
Current Output Power: 13.3 dBm (Downstream) 12.0 dBm (Upstream)
DSLAM Vendor Information: Country: {0xB5} Vendor: {BDCM} Specific: {0x8A1}
PVC Info: 0/38


d/s attenuation now 51.5...... not the way I wanted it to go!

No problem there. You have had a reconnection, which I think may be due to the DLM picking up the non-standard Annex L and forcing it. You are now on ADSL2+ (which you weren't before) with Annex A, which is one of the two expected configurations on your line. It is quite normal for the downstream attenuation to rise when you move to ADSL2+.

At this stage, don't worry about that. There may be an advantage in the future in seeing if we can put you back to ADSL(1), but for now the wiring is the important thing.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/which_isp/t/3986972...

In that post you were showing as using Annex L, but a latter post is showing Annex A.

You are right.... I hadn't noticed that. The stats are now:

DSL Connection Details
DSL Line (Wire Pair): Line 1 (inner pair)
Protocol: G.DMT2 Annex L
Downstream Rate: 935 kbps
Upstream Rate: 530 kbps
Channel: Interleaved
Current Noise Margin: 12.1 dB (Downstream) 14.3 dB (Upstream)
Current Attenuation: 46.4 dB (Downstream) 24.7 dB (Upstream)
Current Output Power: 17.2 dBm (Downstream) 12.2 dBm (Upstream)
DSLAM Vendor Information: Country: {0xB5} Vendor: {BDCM} Specific: {0x8A1}
PVC Info: 0/38

So it has moved back to Annex L. I don't understand why it is doing this as I am not changing any settings. Is it safe to assume that as it is a router supplied by BT that Annex L will be valid?

Edited by wildgoose1uk (Wed 30-Mar-11 12:44:43)

Yeah, it's valid but not what you want. You need a master socket - there's something wrong with your wiring. Can you remove the cobwebs and post another pic?

I believe the Annex L is being automatically set due to excessive crosstalk (due to bad wiring). Get the master/wiring mystery solved, and I believe the rest will be easy.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Yeah, it's valid but not what you want. You need a master socket - there's something wrong with your wiring. Can you remove the cobwebs and post another pic?

More pics at http://www.flickr.com/photos/13608264@N06/sets/72157...

Looks to me like the only two wires that come into the house are solid blue and solid white.... I htought they were meant to be blue and white striped?

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

More pics at http://www.flickr.com/photos/13608264@N06/sets/72157...

Looks to me like the only two wires that come into the house are solid blue and solid white.... I htought they were meant to be blue and white striped?

I think the striped wires are for internal connections. Solid colours are external.

I think the top RH of this pic shows the connections of external to internal: http://www.flickr.com/photos/13608264@N06/5573989512...

Where does the orange ring wire come from?

I think the orange ring wire must only ever have been connected internally.

As far as I can see the only box with solid blue and solid white wires with no striped wires is the first one we looked at.

The DSL connection seems to have settled to:

DSL Connection Details
DSL Line (Wire Pair): Line 1 (inner pair)
Protocol: G.DMT2 Annex L
Downstream Rate: 947 kbps
Upstream Rate: 599 kbps
Channel: Interleaved
Current Noise Margin: 11.9 dB (Downstream) 13.1 dB (Upstream)
Current Attenuation: 46.4 dB (Downstream) 24.9 dB (Upstream)
Current Output Power: 17.1 dBm (Downstream) 12.2 dBm (Upstream)
DSLAM Vendor Information: Country: {0xB5} Vendor: {BDCM} Specific: {0x8A1}
PVC Info: 0/38

Where do we go from here?

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

I think the orange ring wire must only ever have been connected internally.

As far as I can see the only box with solid blue and solid white wires with no striped wires is the first one we looked at.

The DSL connection seems to have settled to:
...

Where do we go from here?

Which socket is the router connected to?
Which sockets is the orange wire connect to?
How many other devices are connected to the phone line - phones, sky boxes, etc?
And are they all filtered?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Which socket is the router connected to?
Which sockets is the orange wire connect to?
How many other devices are connected to the phone line - phones, sky boxes, etc?
And are they all filtered?

I had moved the router to what we thought was the master socket but have put it back where it was before.

The orange wires were connected to all the internal sockets but I have disconnected all of them.

None. One phone which is Dect so all the other phones do not need to be plugged in and one modem is all there is.

Still need to check the connection from the BT pair to the "network" cable that's used to feed your sockets. Check that the crimp is sound. Take a photo clearly showing the wires going into both jelly crimps.
Once that's been shown to be satisfactory, the next step is to identify the very first socket, ensure its a master, disconnect all wires from it other than the incoming pair and plug in router to check stats

Edited by alwall (Wed 30-Mar-11 16:20:18)

Confused again.... Where would I find the jelly crimps and what do they look like? The black and grey cables meet as shown in the pix and then go up the walls into the ceiling. Then we have the sockets as shown in the pix. If there is anything else it must be between the ground floor ceiling and the first floor floor.

I don't think I can pull up the floor for this...... wife would be less than happy.

Am I missing something?

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

Confused again.... Where would I find the jelly crimps and what do they look like?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13608264@N06/5573989512...

WG

Where are you located in the UK? Anywhere near Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk? If yes, I'd be willing to come with my test equipment, tool-kit and have a look

The OP already identified, earlier in the thread, as being from :-

Wateringbury in Kent

100 miles

Photos of the jelly crimps added.

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

WG

Where are you located in the UK? Anywhere near Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk? If yes, I'd be willing to come with my test equipment, tool-kit and have a look

Thnaks for the offer though........

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

Photos of the jelly crimps added.

So where does the grey cable go to?

In reply to a post by RSTSGeek:

The OP already identified, earlier in the thread, as being from :-

Wateringbury in Kent

Thanks, Mr Geek. There is so much information in this thread that my brain is beginning to feel a bit addled!

WG, Sorry but at that distance I won't be able to "take a look".

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

Photos of the jelly crimps added.

So where does the grey cable go to?

The grey cable goes through into the garage and up the wall into the ceiling which is directly below the socket with the solid blue and solid white wires on the first floor.

I see the sockets have numbers, like F0426.

Are all the numbers different?
What is the number of the socket "with the solid blue and solid white wires on the first floor"?

Can you confirm that the BT pair is Blue and White AND the pair feeding your house is SOLID Blue and SOLID White? All the photos ofthe rear of your sockets have shown White with a Blue stripe I think.
If I'm correct, then we haven't yet found the first socket (or possibly there's a junction box). On the other hand if it''s white with a blue stripe then you need to determine the 1st socket as advised previously

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I see the sockets have numbers, like F0426.

Are all the numbers different?
What is the number of the socket "with the solid blue and solid white wires on the first floor"?

Mostly differnet I think. The one with the solid blue and solid white wires is FO442.

WG,

Things are starting to become clearer.

Into the backing boxes of each of the sockets, except the end of the daisy-chain, you have two grey cables?

Before you removed the orange wires, every socket had a pair of orange wires connected, except for the end of the daisy-chain (identified above) and the first socket (which should really be an NTE5A). Can you remember which socket is the latter? Please identify it by the explicit URL to its picture.

Once you have your IDC insertion tool, go to that socket and remove one pair of wires (2 & 5) from one of the grey cables. It is a 1:1 chance that you have disconnected the "extension" wiring. Plug a phone into that socket. Does the phone work?

If yes, label the grey cable with the still-connected pair as "incoming BT Pair" and the disconnected grey cable as "Extensions".

If no, then disconnect the currently attached grey cable and re-attach the pair from the previously disconnected cable.

Re-check with a phone. And then label the cables appropriately.

The report back.

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

Mostly differnet I think. The one with the solid blue and solid white wires is FO442.

Like Alwall says, that ain't the master.

There should be a master before it with 2 incoming wires going to terminals marked A and B and 3 outgoing wires blue, white and orange, connected to 2,5 and 3. - as Mr Saffron mentioned earlier.

No problem. The pleasure was all mine.
I have not been posting on this forum that much longer
than you and may brain still hurts sometimes too !
I think that I am just about getting the hang of it, now.

- Alex

That's the problem that Batboy and I are trying to help with!
Every socket had two ring wires connected.
That's why we are trying to help the OP trace the incoming pair.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

Mostly differnet I think. The one with the solid blue and solid white wires is FO442.

Like Alwall says, that ain't the master.

There should be a master before it with 2 incoming wires going to terminals marked A and B and 3 outgoing wires blue, white and orange, connected to 2,5 and 3. - as Mr Saffron mentioned earlier.

Unless it was a botched job by the builder and the BTO engineer who made the external connections did not check . . .

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

Mostly differnet I think. The one with the solid blue and solid white wires is FO442.

Like Alwall says, that ain't the master.

There should be a master before it with 2 incoming wires going to terminals marked A and B and 3 outgoing wires blue, white and orange, connected to 2,5 and 3. - as Mr Saffron mentioned earlier.

Unless it was a botched job by the builder and the BTO engineer who made the external connections did not check . . .

A botched job by a builder? Surely not

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

Unless it was a botched job by the builder and the BTO engineer who made the external connections did not check . . .

Somehow I doubt a BTO engineer was involved.

Batboy I'll have to leave you to it. Have a deadline to meet unfortunately. Good luck

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

Unless it was a botched job by the builder and the BTO engineer who made the external connections did not check . . .

Somehow I doubt a BTO engineer was involved.

That's your opinion, which I respect.

My opinion, from seeing the Gel Crimps, etc, is that a BTO engineer did make the final black-cable-to-grey- cable connection, under the external shroud, late on a rainy Friday afternoon.

If it helps all the wires were in place when we moved in except for the actual phone line. For this we got BT to come and dig up the road. As far as I recall they were never in the house and only connected the line up at the grey box.

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

That's your opinion, which I respect.

My opinion, from seeing the Gel Crimps, etc, is that a BTO engineer did make the final black-cable-to-grey- cable connection, under the external shroud, late on a rainy Friday afternoon.

The problem I see is that the 2 crimps are different.

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

If it helps all the wires were in place when we moved in except for the actual phone line. For this we got BT to come and dig up the road. As far as I recall they were never in the house and only connected the line up at the grey box.

Must have been his apprentice...

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

Mostly differnet I think. The one with the solid blue and solid white wires is FO442.

Like Alwall says, that ain't the master.

There should be a master before it with 2 incoming wires going to terminals marked A and B and 3 outgoing wires blue, white and orange, connected to 2,5 and 3. - as Mr Saffron mentioned earlier.

There are no other sockets. There are five sockets in the house and the grey box outside. There are no boxes between the grey wire entering the bulding and disappearing into the garage ceiling. Photos of all five sockets are now online and noe appear to be the master socket.

I don't understand...........

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

If it helps all the wires were in place when we moved in except for the actual phone line. For this we got BT to come and dig up the road. As far as I recall they were never in the house and only connected the line up at the grey box.

So, where's the master socket?!

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

There are no other sockets. There are five sockets in the house and the grey box outside. There are no boxes between the grey wire entering the bulding and disappearing into the garage ceiling. Photos of all five sockets are now online and noe appear to be the master socket.

I don't understand...........

I see 4 numbers

FO442
FO518
FO332
FO426

oops...... They are there now though:

FO442
FO518
FO332
FO426
FO525

Did you ever have a problem with phones not ringing?

No, although we only ever had the one plugged into a phone socket as it is a dect system.

Did you say earlier there's a box which is a bit inaccessible, or have we got *all* the boxes on flickr?

Yep but I got to it so we have all 5.

You know that socket with the missing wire, if you remove the second of the pair - the blue? - do all the sockets stop working?

Maybe wait till your krone tool comes....

I've looked and looked, but can't see a socket fed by the solid white wire. They all look white with a blue stripe to me. Can you clarify, using the "F" number ?

The gray cable coming into the house, has blue a solid blue wire, and a white with blue stripe http://www.flickr.com/photos/13608264@N06/5573979477... shows the stripe on the white wire.

The key is finding out which socket these two wires from outside go to on the inside and then fitting an appropriate socket there, and then wiring the extensions from this.

The original poster is close enough that if willing to accept a visitor on Saturday I can visit and see if we can figure this out, and then get you to order the appropriate bits to sort everything out. In the hope it does fix the speed issues.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The gray cable coming into the house, has blue a solid blue wire, and a white with blue stripe http://www.flickr.com/photos/13608264@N06/5573979477... shows the stripe on the white wire.

The key is finding out which socket these two wires from outside go to on the inside and then fitting an appropriate socket there, and then wiring the extensions from this.

The original poster is close enough that if willing to accept a visitor on Saturday I can visit and see if we can figure this out, and then get you to order the appropriate bits to sort everything out. In the hope it does fix the speed issues.

That's brilliant Andrew

In reply to a post by alwall:

That's brilliant Andrew

And extremely generous.

I wonder whether it qualifies for tea and biscuits, perhaps even fig biscuits, or whether it would warrant chocolate cake?

Caramel choccie digestives even!

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The gray cable coming into the house, has blue a solid blue wire, and a white with blue stripe http://www.flickr.com/photos/13608264@N06/5573979477... shows the stripe on the white wire.

The key is finding out which socket these two wires from outside go to on the inside and then fitting an appropriate socket there, and then wiring the extensions from this.

The original poster is close enough that if willing to accept a visitor on Saturday I can visit and see if we can figure this out, and then get you to order the appropriate bits to sort everything out. In the hope it does fix the speed issues.

Andrew.... That would be brilliant. But sadly and somewhat unbelievably some toerag has stolen the copper cable leaving half the village without phone and internet!!! I have heard that this should be fixed by Monday but I am assuming that it will be difficult to fix my problems without phone/internet.......

Am I right?

Cheers

WG..... sititng in the village library with its solitary computer.......

Telephone lines are being stolen, now ?

- Alex

if your phone works then you aren't affected by the theft, and thus no problem fixing this.

The wiring could be resolved without the line actually working, but it would be better to do it when it is working so that any work can be tested before leaving.

Nothing works at the moment. BT are just saying the std 3 working days at the moment so unlikely to be sorted before the weekend.

Still, at least the scroats were caught!

If you would prefer to leave it till the line is fixed that is fine. I am just very grateful for the offer and will have tea and biccies on tap

Once everything is sorted out then email me [email protected] and include a link back to this thread to jog my memory.

Will have a rummage and see what old socketry I have lying around too, usually a few little bits and pieces

Many thanks.

wg

Cable theft due to price of copper. Kent Police and Openreach making extensive use of Smartwater which often finds the offender but isn't stopping all the thefts.

Though with the price of copper BT could proably make a nice proft taking out the copper and putting in fibre.

And how would the 29 million telephones in the UK work?

Crimped up behind the capping - stupid idea.

Cut back and reterminate. Damp salty bricks are bad for wiring and often cause low insulation in the butts of the cable.

Forgot to add if there was a viable alternative to copper for phone lines it would be worth doing as i cant see them being replaced with silver etc, little bit pricey for BT.

Though be interesting to see how much more thefts of the copper phone lines continue.

hey....... looks like we have comms back!!!!

Cor Blimey lads 'n' lassies look what we have here!!:


System Up Time 11:47:42

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4167 kbps 903 kbps
Line Attenuation 47 db 13 db
Noise Margin 12 db 12 db

Ignore the u/s line attenuation though as the router seems ot have a glitch there. But 4167 connection speed.... Strewth.

Many many many thanks to Andrew who came out and sorted out my wiring .... without him doing that I would have been dissappointed whatever ISP I went with.

The only thing I wonder now is if I was too hasty in using my MAC code. I know the advice was to wait until we got the wiring sorted out but aol annoyed me so much with their customer service as detailed at the beginnig of this thread that I used it on Friday.

In reply to a post by wildgoose1uk:

Cor Blimey lads 'n' lassies look what we have here!!:


System Up Time 11:47:42

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4167 kbps 903 kbps
Line Attenuation 47 db 13 db
Noise Margin 12 db 12 db

Ignore the u/s line attenuation though as the router seems ot have a glitch there. But 4167 connection speed.... Strewth.

Many many many thanks to Andrew who came out and sorted out my wiring .... without him doing that I would have been dissappointed whatever ISP I went with.

The only thing I wonder now is if I was too hasty in using my MAC code. I know the advice was to wait until we got the wiring sorted out but aol annoyed me so much with their customer service as detailed at the beginnig of this thread that I used it on Friday.

Great news.
Will you or Andrew be posting the details of what he did please?

I would ...... but he would probably be able to explain it better than I can.

Next question is now that I am moving from aol who do I get my calls from? The line rental has always been with BT but i got my calls through aol as part of the package.

Any ideas as to who to go to for either a line rental/calls package or just a calls package?

Cheers

wg

That's really great. What biscuits does he need to attract him?

Who have you gone to for the broadband in the end, and do they do line rental? What is wrong with BT calls and line rental - are they much more expensive than the rest of the market, and do you actually use the phone a lot? Is it UK calls; international; or chargeable codes such as 0845, 08700 etc.?

I went for Vivaciti in the end as although more expensive than I am paying now £20 for 100gb adsl2+ seems quite good with the support they offer.

They do line rental as well in a full LLU package which is £6 more than the surfwise variety package so essentially line rental is £6. They don't do any cal lpackages though and neither can yo uuse a prefix as it is full LLU but their calls are quite cheap being approx 1p per minute national.

We don't really use the phone much as we tend to use our mobiles most of the time... basically because most of our calls are to mobiles so it makes sense.

For international calls I tend to use skype.

There are some 0845 numbers but not many .... actually it has mostly been to aol support!!!

Nothing at all wrong with BT calls and line rental other than the cost.

As far as biscuits go I really didn't expect him to be over this weekend as the line was down most of the week so I didn't have time to buy any!!!..... Fresh ground coffee seems to work just as well though!!

Edited by wildgoose1uk (Mon 04-Apr-11 09:27:29)

No I don�t think you did act in haste, a fundamental point of customer service, is to retain unhappy customers. If they did not have ability or resources to retain you as a customer, it is Aol's loss.

What happened was the following:

1. Tried to trace internal wiring from entry point, but internal ducting made that impossible
2. Made a guess on the socket, disconnected one side of wiring
3. Found out which socket was first in the daisy chain wiring
4. Found my old SAR-600E got 3.7Meg sync
5. Attached the extensions - sync dropped again
6. Proceeded to try and figure out the sequence for the sockets in the house
7. Fixed the socket with one leg disconnected - sync improved, some odd noise on line
8. Noise went away after playing with another socket

In terms of wiring no real changes, just the IDC's had been remade, and confirmed no ring wire connected.

The 4167 sync appears to be with a 12dB target noise margin, so hopefully once with Vivacciti either it will reset to the 6dB margin, or it can easily be requested. This is likely to take sync to 5 or 5.5Meg, which is about right for the 47dB attenuation.

Moral is that never accept a poor speed until you've made sure the homes wiring is not causing some of the problem.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

What happened was the following:

1. Tried to trace internal wiring from entry point, but internal ducting made that impossible
2. Made a guess on the socket, disconnected one side of wiring
3. Found out which socket was first in the daisy chain wiring
4. Found my old SAR-600E got 3.7Meg sync
5. Attached the extensions - sync dropped again
6. Proceeded to try and figure out the sequence for the sockets in the house
7. Fixed the socket with one leg disconnected - sync improved, some odd noise on line
8. Noise went away after playing with another socket

In terms of wiring no real changes, just the IDC's had been remade, and confirmed no ring wire connected.

The 4167 sync appears to be with a 12dB target noise margin, so hopefully once with Vivacciti either it will reset to the 6dB margin, or it can easily be requested. This is likely to take sync to 5 or 5.5Meg, which is about right for the 47dB attenuation.

Moral is that never accept a poor speed until you've made sure the homes wiring is not causing some of the problem.

This should be compulsory reading for those that change ISP without properly investigating their wiring. Nevertheless I'm a bit surprised that such a recent installation doesn't have an NTE5.

No real surprise as the internals are done by the builder and usually BT these days just connects to their network outside.

I was in the process of moving my calls back to BT from aol (line rental has always been with BT) when I noticed the following:

Available to eligible new and existing residential customers signing up to the Unlimited Weekend Plan on a 12 month minimum term. Terms and conditions apply.

Whilst we don't make many calls using the landline I really don't want to be tied into a 12 month contract unless it is the best option. If it is the best option I can live with it.

What are the other options that are worth considering?

cheers

wg

I think the Post Office is monthly contract for phone.

I realise that we all have different requirements for our calls package, but when I last phoned BT to enquire about deals I finally got through to their "retentions dept" who gave me a deal (anytime calls, unlimited broadband and BT vision) that dramatically undercut what I was already paying for a lesser service.
However I'd imagine that everyone who advises you will have their own preferences, maybe a good read of the Moneysaving Expert forums might be another source of information, in what I believe to be a complex minefield!

Brief update!

I now sync at 4167 d/s and 903 u/s which gives me a usuable d/s speed of 3.5meg

Vivaciti had problems with my MAC code. Apparently because I was with AOL (tt) and Vivaciti purchase their LLU from tt this confused the poor puters who rejected ther MAC code as it was already registered on their systems (albeit with a different provider). This is something Vivaciti were trying to fix btu could not give me a timeframe as it was dependent on tt changing their systems.

I therefore cancelled the order and have remained with aol. I also cancelled the proser to move my landline to the Post Office as there seemed little point doing this until I got the broadband sorted out.

Soooo.....I am currently paying aol £15 a month for unlimited downloads and unlimited anytime UK landline calls and paying BT £13 a month line rental. My download speed has gone up from 0.5 - 0.9mb to 3.5mb. Practically speaking this means that if I miss an episode of my favoutite tv series I can d/l it in 13 minutes instead of an hour.........

...... and it is all entirely due to Andrew and the folks on this forum.....

Many thanks....... many many thanks.

wg

Forgive me if I've misunderstood your post, but why not go with BT? Eclipse are just BT riders but if you have a problem with DBs (which most rural areas do, I had 80db+ last week which made the tech guy think his equipment was broken!) then you won't get much of a speed response from anyone other than BT. I was with Orange and everytime I lost broadband, they would blame BT and BT would blame Orange.

A problem with DB's - urm his attenuation is 43dB so no problem, 8Meg sync should be possible.

Orange has year on year been voted poor for customer service and speeds, so hardly one to judge the quality of switching to BT by.

BT Total has the same reporting/functionality available to it as any other provider, but often has many 1000's of support staff who only know what is on the script they read

I agree, those foreign call centres where you repeat yourself and get asked to do things you've already tried a dozen times are a nightmare! But I live out in the country and broadband goes down a lot. Whilst on orange, if broadband went down and it was a line problem (but the phone lines were still working), BT would say it was Orange's problem/error/bug and Orange could do nothing to send an engineer out. Now I'm with BT, whenever broadband goes down, I spend 20-30 minutes in a pointless conversation with a useless "support" worker ... but at least at the end of it they say "an engineer will be out soon" - something other providers can't do as far as I've noticed having been with Orange and Sky.