New ISP (Opal LLU?)

Hi!

Looking to see if I can get better value for money, currently on IDNet's Home Supermax product (£36 per month), I notice my exchange now has TalkTalk LLU (Opal?) available. Really don't want to go with TalkTalk but I understand some ISPs (for example Vivaciti) are selling LLU products using Opal's equipment.

Main uses are gaming (so low latency is essential), iplayer and browsing/http downloading.

Currently looking at Vivaciti's ADSL2+ LLU 100GB FUP product, is Vivaciti the only ISP selling products using Opal or do I have other options?

Thanks in advance!

Xilo also resell the Surfwise packages via Opal LLU.

Benefits are it's a partial LLU product, so no full line unbundling and the ensuing nightmares if you want to bail out. It's ADSL2+, so sync speeds are great if you are close enough to your exchange. Download speeds are fine, if you can find any of the big file hosts that aren't on the throttled list.

Torrents and newsgroups are traffic managed 24/7. Gaming - only online game I play is Star Trek Online (nerd alert!). This is unplayable during the daytime on IDNet Surfwise. Whether this is a local congestion issue, or a peculiarity unique to this game I can't tell. IDNet support say game traffic isn't throttled, so don't know what's going on there.

I haven't played any fps game online for a while, so can't tell you what pings are like to UK servers etc.

Thanks for the reply!

So IDNet also offer a Surfwise package? I'm assuming I can't get it with IDNet as it's not showing ADSL2 as an available option when I put my number in the checker.

I was with Vivaciti's ADSL Max Surfwise product last year which was pretty terrible during peak hours....I'm guessing things haven't improved then?

Just to correct post...

Our product is vastly different from that of the previous provider mentioned.

None of our services are traffic managed in any way, shape or form and nor do we require users to buy an add-on to remove/lower the traffic management.

Matt

Sorry, got my wires crossed there. My previous ISP was also IDNet. Funnily enough, I was on the same product as you too.

Meant to say Vivaciti Surfwise, or, as it's labelled in my client portal - Surfwise - ADSL2+ LLU 100GB FUP Broadband.

I've been on this for about 3 months and have no complaints, apart from the mysterious lag issues with STO.

Just had a chat with the eldest lad, he plays a lot of Xbox multiplayer, he says he's had no issues since I switched over. Full green bars pretty much every server. If you can live with the throttling and your exchange has no timeframe for 21cn, you can't really do any better atm, at least not until more LLU providers get in on the action at your exchange, or BT pull their fingers out and get you on WBC.

In reply to a post by uno:

Just to correct post...

Our product is vastly different from that of the previous provider mentioned.

None of our services are traffic managed in any way, shape or form and nor do we require users to buy an add-on to remove/lower the traffic management.

Matt

Currently looking at Vivaciti's ADSL2+ LLU 100GB FUP product

I was ofc talking about the product he mentioned, not yours. I just pointed out that you also resell LLU broadband via Opal, not to imply your product was the same.

In reply to a post by Koppo:

I was ofc talking about the product he mentioned, not yours. I just pointed out that you also resell LLU broadband via Opal, not to imply your product was the same.

Sorry, I read..

Xilo also resell the Surfwise packages via Opal LLU

We do not have a Surfwise product and I believe that is a product offered by their supplier of TBB (Opal) services.

Matt

So apart from the STO lag issues you've been happy with the decision to move from IDNet to Vivaciti?

Well, tbh it was a no-brainer. I download a fair bit and being able to do that at 1400kbps, as opposed to what I was getting on my capped 8meg Max Premium service, makes it a winner.

I am also only paying £20 per month for it, which is a massive saving over what I was paying IDNet. Not to knock IDNet though, their Max Premium service is outstanding for what it is.

I keep hoping someone else will stick some kit in our exchange. With 8k residential and 450 business lines I don't understand why it hasn't happened yet. Sky have unbundled the other two exchanges in our town, my exchange still has more lines than both of these combined. Maybe there's a space problem in the exchange building or something *shrug*.

The traffic management is a bit of a pain. The big file hosts like Fileserve, Hotfile etc are all throttled. Don't torrent or Usenet, so don't know how badly they are throttled.

Apart from that, I'm happy with it I guess.

Apologies to Xilo, I thought they also resold the Opal service.

Edited by deleted (Thu 02-Jun-11 15:38:57)

Hmmm I think the speed will be similar to what I'm currently getting as I'm a fair distance away from the exchange, but the £15 a month saving is quite tempting!

With regards to the file hosts traffic management - does that just applies during the day?

In reply to a post by Koppo:

Apologies to Xilo, I thought they also resold the Opal service.

We *do* but the Surfwise product is one that comes via ex-O-bit from memory as per the link which shows the traffic management.

Ours is non-traffic shaped, non-"Surfwise".

Matt

There is no off peak. The shaping is constant 24/7.

You can buy the file share addon, which removes the 100gb cap and all traffic management, but that'll set you back another £20.40 on top of the £19.80. This ofc makes it more expensive than what you're paying IDNet.

We *do* but the Surfwise product is one that comes via ex-O-bit from memory as per the link which shows the traffic management.

Ours is non-traffic shaped, non-"Surfwise".

Is this something I could get on my line then? Just looked on the XILO site and it said for exchange Elmswell (EAEMS) I'm only able to get capped Home/Office products

Edited by deleted (Thu 02-Jun-11 16:04:16)

In reply to a post by uno:

In reply to a post by Koppo:

Apologies to Xilo, I thought they also resold the Opal service.

We *do* but the Surfwise product is one that comes via ex-O-bit from memory as per the link which shows the traffic management.

Ours is non-traffic shaped, non-"Surfwise".

Matt

Confused So you sell a broadband package, based on Opal and available on exchanges showing TalkTalk LLU? I can't find it on your site.

If I can get an ADSL2+ service from you, with similar or better bandwidth allowance and no traffic management, consider me a potential inbound migration. Do you have a direct link to this package, as your line checker only brings up the ADSL Max/Max Premium packages for me.

Would be listed under the Phone+BB tab where/if possible.

Matt

Confused So you sell a broadband package, based on Opal and available on exchanges showing TalkTalk LLU? I can't find it on your site.

If I can get an ADSL2+ service from you, with similar or better bandwidth allowance and no traffic management, consider me a potential inbound migration. Do you have a direct link to this package, as your line checker only brings up the ADSL Max/Max Premium packages for me.

That's how I read it as well - if true then I'd also be very very interested! The traffic management @ Vivaciti is a potential deal breaker

It's only possible as a Phone+BB bundle currently i'm afraid (the far right tab on the checker).

Matt

In reply to a post by uno:

It's only possible as a Phone+BB bundle currently i'm afraid (the far right tab on the checker).

Matt

Products that appear to be available to me are the Talk Surf/Talk Surf Pro packages - are these the ones you are referring to and do you have any further information? Can't seem to find them on the main site (Bar the checker page)

If you want to drop us an email at sales[at]uno.net.uk, we'll be happy to give more in-depth details!

Matt

Ah, so no SMPF option then? That counts me out, don't want the added hassle and cost should I ever move providers and have to get a BT line again.

This is possible on some exchanges but are still awaiting a full feed from TTB as they have two systems that give us this data.

Matt

In reply to a post by SAFCDan:

Thanks for the reply!

So IDNet also offer a Surfwise package? I'm assuming I can't get it with IDNet as it's not showing ADSL2 as an available option when I put my number in the checker.

I was with Vivaciti's ADSL Max Surfwise product last year which was pretty terrible during peak hours....I'm guessing things haven't improved then?

You probably don't know that uno (Matt) and xilo are the same. So he isn't just someone jumping in ! As they don't have the restrictions of vivaciti perhaps you should look into it in more detail.

I can recommend both vivacti and xilo/uno from what I observe here.

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 02-Jun-11 20:02:03)

The traffic management should only have an effect between 8am and 7:30pm, if you are seeing it at any other time then you need to log that with us as a fault.

We do also offer the phone and broadband (complete) package, but we have found most people don't like the idea of moving both phone and broadband over to LLU.

The traffic management applies during 8am and 7:30pm mon - fri only, I have read the OP post and advised if they are seeing it 24x7 they should raise this as a fault as it's not working as it should.

from my expierence the surfwise variety LLU (+fileshare addon) was ok for the money, better than any ipstream/etc connection but there was jitter of 5-10ms on the line during business peak which talktalk said was within acceptable limits. no packetloss and throughput was consistently high.

routing wise most of the traffic went over above.net which gave some problems for european hosted servers, but usually within 20ms of what i get with easynet.

afaik both o-bit (surfwise opal llu) and murphx ("pro" 75gb opal llu) are part of the daisy group now.

Edited by acting_funny (Thu 02-Jun-11 21:11:39)

I was also on IDNet's Home Supermax product i use the internet primarily for gaming.
My pings with IDNet 27ms
My pings with Vivaciti Surfwise Variety (LLU) 17ms

my K/D ratio on call of duty went from around 1.57 to 2.70 obviously when the host is not laggy when the host quits the lobby it always makes me host next.

I am very happy with vivaciti Great for gaming pings always low no jitter either in my experience up to press.

I've been on the Surfwise product from Vivaciti for about 5 weeks now, and my own experience is not a good one. It doesn't seem very stable, at least one drop every 24 hours - even with a router that Vivaciti lent me - and having phoned them this morning it seems the ticket I've had open since the end of April "couldn't be found".

The finger is being pointed squarely at me which is disappointing. I've been with them for over 4 years and always thought them to be good, but I guess you only find out how good an ISP is when you start to get problems.

No its not just you me and my friend who i got to join also get disconnects.

With a D-link broadcom router d-link dsl 2740b i used to get many disconnects, now with a Netgear broadcom dgn2000 i get one every 3 days or so at night when i am asleep so i do not mind that.
Netgear dgn2000 with dgteam firmware is hanging in a lot better.

In reply to a post by TiMeTraVeLeR:

No its not just you me and my friend who i got to join also get disconnects.

Thanks, thats interesting. Thought maybe I was a blip

Netgear dgn2000 with dgteam firmware is hanging in a lot better.

I've already bought two routers off eBay, Netgear DG834GT and a Thomson TG585v7. Vivaciti also lent me a TG585v7, and it wasn't any better than my own DG834GT at 6db SNR setting. Plus, its a bit "Fisher Price" and you have to prop it up to stop it overheating (fer Chrissakes).

Maybe I'll look at a DGN2000 on eBay, or try the DGTeam firmware on my DG834GT. I'll have a room full of routers soon.

In reply to a post by vivaciti:

The traffic management applies during 8am and 7:30pm mon - fri only, I have read the OP post and advised if they are seeing it 24x7 they should raise this as a fault as it's not working as it should.

I'll test this tonight as this isn't borne out by what I've been seeing the last few weeks. Maybe I'm just experiencing congestion with my two preferred download sites, Fileserve & Hotfile.

As for router issues, I'm using a Linksys WAG320N. Must admit to getting the occasional line drop, but nowhere near the frequency listed by the posters above. I've heard Broadcom chipset routers seems to be a best match for TT exchange kit. Someone else more in the know may be able to educate further.

One way to test if it is the trafic management gone wrong, if you run a speedtest from the thinkbroadband site then run the same test but select the port 80 option.

I don't think it is a router issue, we lent you one you reported that it was better with only a couple of drops, now you have reported it is still dropping the same we have passed this back over to the carriers to look at, looking at your ticket, this was replied to at 11:31, you have now asked for a call back and this is in the outbound queue to call you, but looking at the ticket we have with the carriers we they are still running further tests on the line and we wont have anything back from them until Monday now.

In reply to a post by vivaciti:

I don't think it is a router issue, we lent you one you reported that it was better with only a couple of drops

Not exactly true - here's the exact quote from the ticket, when the SNR had been pumped up to around 11db
|| Client 23/05/2011 16:15
Fair enough. The Thomson seems to stick quite solidly at the moment, at around 11-12db SNR, whereas the Netgear DG834GT seemed to always start around 6db, then move up or down on its own. Don't know if that helps.

And here are three quotes from the ticket once the SNR had been dropped down to 6db
|| Client 26/05/2011 07:36
Looks like we had some kind of drop last night around 1:00am. Maybe we're not there yet?

|| Client 27/05/2011 18:10
Another drop today, around 1:35pm as best I can tell. Can you tell what caused it?

|| Client 28/05/2011 11:30
Two drops yesterday (Fri 28th). I'm afraid I disagree that this is a CPE issue, as the Thomson router is already exhibiting similar behaviour to the Netgear at lower Noise Margins.

I never received any response to these last 2 posts I made to the ticket.

It's not a case of now you have reported it is still dropping, I reported it 7 days ago. The only reason we're discussing it now is because I phoned to try and find out what was going on. And was told by Dan he couldn't even find the ticket.

you have now asked for a call back

I asked for one yesterday because nobody was answering your support phones, just an answering machine. That was the only option available to me. I had the same issue today but then I went via your "sales" option and miraculously someone put me through to support. Strange that. Dan told me I would be getting a call back, I didn't actually ask for one.

There was an issue with our phone system, not spreading the calls correctly and if more than 2 lines in use passing it to voice mail, most people left a message and got a call back within 10 mins, some people decided not to leave a voice mail. The phone system was working properly again since just after 3pm today.

Well unfortunately I wasn't one of them who got a call back. I guess we can blame the customer for that too.

Hi there,
I have reported this to the systems guy and he has sent you an email asking for details on this call and voice mail so he can check the phone system logs to find out what happened to your voice mail you left the support desk.

I'd appreciate it if you could just concentrate on fixing the DSL.

Not had an email from anybody, but updated the ticket this morning with the details you required. Thanks, Paul.

In reply to a post by coldnebraskablue:

I'd appreciate it if you could just concentrate on fixing the DSL.

Hmm - I think I'll stick with IDNet for now then!

Thanks for all the helpful posts

I've been on the standard Surfwise variety 100GByte ( Vivaciti) for a few months now , my speed tests and using iPlayer show a more or less constant download speed of 16.5 Mbps throughout the day and night.
Tweeking the SNR on my router will get me another 1.5 Mbps but I dont bother.
I dont use P2P .

I have noticed that the connection does drop every 1-3 days , I had previously been used to uptimes running into 1-4 weeks on a 8 Mbps BTw connection .
Dont know if this is due to the lower 6 db SN margin or the change to a LLU connection ?

When looking through posts on tt forum t is inundated with disconnection threads which then follows with an oce raising the users profile.
I keep my snr at around 5db and just put up with the disconnects for the sake of speed i know around 12db and i do not see many but dam that's to high.

In reply to a post by rarrar:

I've been on the Dont know if this is due to the lower 6 db SN margin or the change to a LLU connection ?

The change to LLU (is the answer).
You, previously, had a line (which was capable of doing 16Mbps) chugging along, quite happily, at 8Mbps and not being hard pushed to do it.
You now have the 8Mbps cap removed (by virtue of being on an ADSL2/2+ connection), the brakes have been removed and your line's getting pushed as hard as it can go (hence the more frequent resyncs).

You may be able to clear them by asking for a 9dB target margin (but you'll lose a couple of Mbps), or you could try the self-help tweaks (sorting out internal wiring issues, etc.) which are posted on many websites.

In reply to a post by rarrar:

the brakes have been removed and your line's getting pushed as hard as it can go (hence the more frequent resyncs).

Ade, could you share what you think is an acceptable frequency for resyncs?

try the self-help tweaks (sorting out internal wiring issues, etc.) which are posted on many websites.

Could you possibly share links for some of these sites?

Reasonable number of disconnects is however many you are willing to put up with - some might want a completely clear connection others might put up with 2 or 3 disconnects an hour to get higher speeds. Personal choice.

As far as sites go. Try www.kitz.co.uk or look for posts by RobertoS on this site and his signature has a site with lots of info about ADSL.

In reply to a post by adebov:

The change to LLU (is the answer).

But are the more frequent disconnects ( they dont bother me particularly) due to the LLU, the ADSL2+ or the drop in SNmargin from 13db to 6 db or a combination of all 3 ?

Dropping the SNR margin to 3 dB with DMT doesnt seem to increase the frequency of disconnects !

( ADSL sync was 7218kbps present sync ~ 20 -21 <bps)

Since posting have had far fewer disconnects and last uptime was over 10 days with Noise Margin of 3 dB ( tweeked using DMT).
Sods law working well so expect everything to go haywire now. !