Market 1&2 victim ? Poss. sav. if you have / want BB + AnyPh *DELETED*

Post deleted by Sadoldman

Edited by deleted (Thu 30-Jun-11 22:08:18)

Post deleted by RobertoS

Suggest you do not use our forums to request members supply their mail address.

If a member has a specific problem you feel help with I suggest you use our PM system.

OK then.
Market 1 & 2 victims with moderate usage who have / want Anytime calls bundle have opportunity to get cheaper deal and in some cases more usage.
It does not necessarily mean you need to switch ISP, just haggle with your existing one.
It is a little bit complicated, some calculations to be done etc.
So just send me a PM and I will give you the details of what to do.

There is a deadline of 6th July.

PS
Robertos deleted (?) post suggested it is as simple as threatening to defect to PlusNet
(who are normally the cheapest).
NOT SO. For once the boot is on the other foot.
You can get even PlusNet to give you a discount from their listed price !

Regards,
Martin

Just post the details here.

You can get pretty well any ISP to give you a discounted price. It's called a "Retention Discount" or "Loyalty Bonus" or similar. Several also have referral schemes, whereby as a result of someone introducing a new customer both receive a benefit.

Many even have specific Retention Departments for the purpose. It just needs customers to be aware of this sort of thing, as they are increasingly becoming. Not just in the field of broadband either.

Your style does very much suggest a hidden agenda, which has to make one suspect you expect to benefit. Alternatively, building on someone else's comment in another forum, you are naive and have only just discovered this.

The only puzzling bit is your deadline date. Maybe it is a referral scheme of some sort.

No hidden agenda.
As I explained it my original post I want to be able to asses Market 1 & 2 victims reaction to possible campaign to Ofcom to do away with this unfair Market classification,
so I asked people to email me which led to Sadoldman to delete my post.
But PM will do just as well.
Regards,
Martin

That bears no resemblance to what you put in your original post, nor to anything you have posted since. Bear in mind that to the site owners and staff, I think also to mods, the contents of deleted posts are available.

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 02-Jul-11 21:57:56)

In reply to a post by martinsq:

No hidden agenda.

What's the secret then that can't be said in public?

This is not some sort of masonic lodge that business has to be done behind closed doors.

I agree with Roberto that you are being less than honest here.

Either pipe up with your idea or forever hold your piece.

or forever hold your piece

TMI
,
,
,
,
, don't you mean peace?

OED

Re TMI - I also thought "piece" might be intentional, with denigratory connotations.

I defer to Freud!

It's been suggested that most folk don't know about Market 1 etc.,
so I will re-post under another thread.
M

How can something which is so universally possible across all ISPs have a time limit on it? Something is not true about what you are saying.

It is impossible to believe there is no benefit to you from anyone doing whatever it is you suggest.

He's posted again in a new thread. I don't get it....

I know. I just didn't want to give it any replies.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

How can something which is so universally possible across all ISPs have a time limit on it? Something is not true about what you are saying.

It is impossible to believe there is no benefit to you from anyone doing whatever it is you suggest.

The deadline has passed, there is now a new one quite some time away.
I don't set the deadlines, certain company does....!

Everything I said is true, prove otherwise or hold your peace, or piece, ....!

There is NO benefit to me, I just want contact with Market 1 & 2 victims
( who are most likely to benefit from this deal, it's saving me nearly £5 p.m. )
to ask for purely voluntary support for campaign to Ofcom to do away with that stupid Market classification.

(OK, IF that would happen I would save even more money, but so would HUGE no.s of others too.)

Must be hard life being such a sceptic...
M

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

.......Everything I said is true, prove otherwise or hold your peace, or piece, ....!

I don't think the onus is on a poster who is sceptical of a post on a BBS...anyone can challenge any post.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

...........to ask for purely voluntary support for campaign to Ofcom to do away with that stupid Market classification.........

If it is your intention to run a campaign and use our forums you need to contact [email protected] who pay the bills for running this site.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Must be hard life being such a sceptic...
M

My sig used to be..... To trust is good....not to trust is better. So go figure.

Got him!

It's Utility Warehouse he is pushing. I had been thinking what the scheme could be that maybe you could haggle with your own ISP, and light dawned. So I googled "Utility Warehouse 6 July".

Bingo!

Don't people get something for recruiting others? Though of course, if people didn't join, just haggled with their ISP, then the poster wouldn't benefit. But if they did join, for whatever purpose ...?

I rather assumed the OP was after referrals. It doesn't make much sense to be asking for e-mails, PMs otherwise.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Got him!

It's Utility Warehouse he is pushing. I had been thinking what the scheme could be that maybe you could haggle with your own ISP, and light dawned. So I googled "Utility Warehouse 6 July".

Bingo!

Don't people get something for recruiting others? Though of course, if people didn't join, just haggled with their ISP, then the poster wouldn't benefit. But if they did join, for whatever purpose ...?

NO !
It has nothing to do, and I would have nothing to do, with Utility Warehouse !
And I REPEAT, I am not after any benefit WHATSOEVER !
M

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

...........to ask for purely voluntary support for campaign to Ofcom to do away with that stupid Market classification.........

If it is your intention to run a campaign and use our forums you need to contact [email protected] who pay the bills for running this site.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

My sig used to be..... To trust is good....not to trust is better. So go figure.

Sadolman,
are you going to help ?
Regards,
Martin

I've just changed the Subject. My reason is that I don't see a problem with Market 1 and 2 classifications, nor with OfCom in doing these classifications.

There seems to be a shortage of logic in your thinking.

There is only Plusnet, so far as I know, that charges customers less on Market 3 exchanges. This is because it costs them less.

All other BT Wholesale-based ISPs, ie the vast majority, charge the same on M1, M2 and M3. That means they are making excess profit from Market 3 customers, and that profit effectively subsidises the M1 and M2 ones.

You seem to be complaining on behalf of those on M1 and M2 exchanges, where in fact except on Plusnet they benefit (in price terms for the available services) from being so. The poor or non-existent availabilty of LLU is a different matter altogether.

I get the feeling that you may therefore be a Plusnet M1/M2customer who hasn't thought this through.

RobertoS,
would you be happy to pay twice as much for your electricity or phone then your friends 3 miles up the road, even though it's from the same supplier ?

Ofcom allows BT / Openreach to maintain high charges on Market 1 & 2 exchanges in a hope of attracting LLU competition. This has (on the whole) failed. And now that the independent ISP's (Be/O2, Talk Talk, etc.) are moving on to fibre (well that's where the money is...),
there is NO CHANCE of small exchanges to get LLU, let alone fibre !

So the time has come to treat all exchanges equally.

I have the feeling you may NOT be M1 or M2 customer, so it does not concern you....!
M

In reply to a post by martinsq:

RobertoS,
would you be happy to pay twice as much for your electricity or phone then your friends 3 miles up the road, even though it's from the same supplier ?

I doubt he would but, of course, the market 1 charge for broadband isn't twice that of the market 3 price is it.
Also, and I guess you don't realise this (otherwise you wouldn't have used it as an analogy), electricity prices do vary by region.
For example; one EDF fixed rate tariff charges 9.23p per kW/hr if you live in the Midlands, but only 8.08p if you live in Yorkshire.

I live just inside the Midlands region, so would pay 9.23p.
Just down the road (by only a few miles) is the Southern region, who have to pay 10.02p.

Perhaps you'd like to start a campaign about the inequalities of electricity prices, too?

Or; perhaps you should vote with your feet and just move to one of the 90 odd percent of providers who don't charge extra for market 1 & 2 exchanges .

Read the facts and the logic of my post, instead of watching me speak then continuing to yabber garbage from your soap-box.

There is only one non-LLU ISP charging lower on Market 3. All the customers of other non-LLU ISPs on market 1 and Market 2 exchanges are being subsidised by their Market 3 exchange customers. So their Market 3 customers have two related complaints. See if you can work them out, as if you can you will at last be thinking straight.

All your argument amounts to is that Plusnet should overcharge M3 customers in the same way as every other ISP can be said to do - is that what you think would be fairer?

There is only one LLU ISP supplying FTTC. Little sign of any others in the near future.

Hidden in your misguided thinking are a few points worth discussing. But you are attacking the wrong target because you haven't thought through what you are demanding.

In any case he seems to want to campaign (to Ofcom) against something which was, inherently, their idea in the first place , so I can't really see him getting anywhere, plus the fact anyone who's not with Plusnet won't have a clue what he's talking about.

His complete failure to understand the reality lies in

Or; perhaps you should vote with your feet and just move to one of the 90 odd percent of providers who don't charge extra for market 1 & 2 exchanges

Apart from the strange statistic that Plusnet amounts to approaching 10% of the ISPs in the country, he seems to think I am on Plusnet in a Market 3 area.

I don't think he reads anything except "Yes Martin, how right you are. We would like to join you in emulating turkeys voting for Christmas".

ADE,
yes the electricity prices wary a bit, free market competition, but you can switch suppliers.
(though they just all go UP if slightly out of step...!)

Can't REALLY do that on Market 1 exchange, because of the underlaying charge (sanctioned by Ofcom) to Openreach.
You don't pay BT any more for phone line /calls in Outer Hebridies, though it obviously is more expensive to provide and support then Midlands !
Why should it be different for BB, it comes over same phoneline ?

And YES, BT (in PlusNet hat ) WILL charge you EXACTLY DOUBLE the price on Market 1 exchange (£12.99 instead of £6.49 for their lowest BB deal).

But the CRUX of the matter is: Ofcom set this Market 1/2 price / classicication to promote competition. It has not happened, it wil NOT happen.
They know it.
It's just a question of getting them to publicly admit it.
Martin

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

But the CRUX of the matter is: Ofcom set this Market 1/2 price / classicication to promote competition.

I'm not sure that is correct. Can you give us a link to where OfCom have said this?

As I remember it the OR price lowering on M3 exchanges was only relatively recently authorised. Market classifications have been around for several years, and seeing as they are based on the number of CPs I'm not sure how they could be expected to promote competition.

Perhaps you are confusing this with the price controls that OfCom have had in place on Openreach and BTW for years, quite independent of Market Classification.

I hope it's a wooden soapbox you are standing on, not a cardboard one, given the rain we are getting.

Have you understood yet my previous two posts showing how back-to-front your thinking is?

Martin

Why are people that connect to M1 and M2 exchanges 'victims'

Victim indicates something bad has happened to the person.

I don't see how it is bad that they happen to live in an area companies don't want to roll services out to due to cost.

Also, BT doesn't have to roll bb out everywhere but they did to generate profit and get a better share price. Every other private company does the same.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

ADE,
yes the electricity prices wary a bit, free market competition, but you can switch suppliers.

What; and you're forced to take broadband with Plusnet?
Have you not realised yet......You CAN switch your ADSL to a company which doesn't charge more for market 1 & 2 exchanges.

Nobody is holding a gun to your head and saying "Oi; Martin.....get your broadband from Plusnet".

The way I see it, you want el cheapo broadband (which is why you're with Plusnet) but you also want your broadband supplier to make a loss on your connection (or, as Bob says, you want those of us on Market 3 exchanges to subsidise your connection).

If you don't want to pay twice that of people in market 3 exchanges (who are with the same ISP), simply switch.
Maybe go to BT themselves. They also provide the same rubbish 10GB allowance, but charge everybody the same price.
Unfortunately for you, that price is £14 a month (so still more than Plusnet).

In any case; you've missed the point on why electricity prices vary according to region........It's the same reason market 1 & 2 exchanges cost more for broadband.
This quote was taken from the 'Equipower' website (a not-for-profit supplier)...."prices vary across the country because the technicalities and hardware of electricity distribution are handled by different regional companies. Each of these companies faces very different challenges and costs in the process, depending on whether their region is more rural or urban. For instance, there�s a lot more equipment and outlay involved in transporting power across the mountainous Scottish highlands than door to door in Birmingham."
So pretty much the same reason why some (possibly only one) suppliers sell broadband at a higher price for market 1 & 2......It costs them more due to lack of competition.

Electricity prices do not vary because of free market competition, they always were different. We only find out about the differences because of free market competition (where we're provided with electricity tariffs from our suppliers, showing prices across the regions).

It's exactly the same electricity costs more in the middle of nowhere (e.g. 9.71p per kWHr in the Highlands, compared to 8.08p in Yorkshire) because it costs more to provision it in the Highlands.
The same situation applies to broadband. In a tiny little town or villiage there is only one wholesale provider (BT) because the market is not large enough for any competition to make a profit and OFcom have regulated that, in these exchanges, the current wholesale provider should be able to charge something which more closely reflects their costs.

All of this has been explained to you but as Bob says, you only want to hear "yes Martin, you're right.....we should all subsidise you for living in the middle of nowhere".

It's a simple fact of rural life, which quite obviously hasn't got through to you yet.
Things cost more when you have to take them further, or have fewer people to share the distribution costs.
Petrol costs more at little town and village filling stations.
Groceries cost more at your little village shop.

The only thing which is the same cost is postage, where Royal Mail are forced to charge the same price across the whole of the UK (even in the Highlands and Islands), and look what's happened to that company because they're being forced to do this.......They're close to bankrupcy and already would be if they weren't state owned and being subsidised by the tax payer.

I suppose the next thing you'll be asking is for a governemt regulator to force Tesco to open an 'Extra' store in a tiny little village, so the 100 customers can get bananas at the same price as people living in Birmingham.

Post deleted by Sadoldman

There will be a cooling off period so if your nan has changed her mind she will be able to cancel.

Post irrelevant to this thread plus you are making accusations against a named individual, so I have removed it.

Suggest you repost in a new thread if you feel the need but without the accusations of drug taking, naming an individual who has no right of reply, and refrain from using caps....., it is regarded as shouting and rude.

As pointed out there is a cooling of period, so perhaps an approach to the ISP concerned would be more effective.

AHA !
Told you Ofcom KNEW holding up the prices failed to bring competition !
Now they reversed their stance. Frankly that won't work either, but at least
some 11% / 3m BB users *might* save some money.

Today Ofcom instructed BT/Openreach to reduce their wholesale price on Market 1 exchanges by 12% bellow inflation, each year to 2014, starting mid August.
Only applies to IPStream / up to 8Mb/s services.

Sounds good, but it's just a little step in the right direction.
(it would take REAL 50% cut to match Market 3 prices)

In fact is, it remains to be seen if the ISP's will reduce their prices at all.
So, we still need to haggle to get the best deal.

No mention of Market 2 though. But PlusNet now charges same as Market 3,
but only if the customer knows about it, and raises a ticket !

Sorry to the resident geeks who BELIEVE they are subsidizing Market 1 exchanges....ha, ha...
Martin

That news was NOTHING to do with Openreach, but all to do with the BT Wholesale IPStream Connect

There are another set of IPStream products that use BT Centrals - i.e. common among smaller providers. Connect is more popular with the big providers like TalkTalk, o2, sky in their off-net products.

Don't worry about him Andrew. As you can see from his "clever" ending, he still can't grasp the fact that on every (BT Wholesale) ISP except Plusnet the Market 3 customers do subsidise their Market 1 ones. Just a step too far for him it seems.

Things are more complex, as when the Market 3 rules were relaxed, ISP's were free to negotiate discounts, i.e. not visible on the various price lists.

Plusnet seem to have got a good deal, one presumes many others have not, possibly due to their smaller size.

I accept what you say about that cost difference varying, but it's still the case that all such ISPs pay less on Market 3 than they do on Market 1. As they charge all customers the same, they make a greater profit from M3 ones than from M1. Therefore M3 customers subsidise M1.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I accept what you say about that cost difference varying, but it's still the case that all such ISPs pay less on Market 3 than they do on Market 1. As they charge all customers the same, they make a greater profit from M3 ones than from M1. Therefore M3 customers subsidise M1.

Surely that's the fault of the ISPs which have these practices if indeed they are subsidising market 3 customers. I could evenly argue that market 3 customers with higher prices are subsidising market 2 customers with lower prices.

If ten customers all pay the same price for a product, how can one argue that some of those customers are subsidising others any more than in any industry where some outlets incur higher costs than others at point of sale?

(Not getting political, but) given that North Sea Oil is closer to the North and East of Scotland, shouldn't fuel, and utility costs there be cheaper? Or at least cheaper in the areas of refineries (which it isn't). In fact it's dearer, as the produce is piped South then transported North, with the higher costs being in the rural areas. This is taken as sensible, but if the refineries were at the point of entry to the country, the produce would be transported South and the costs would be less in the North.

Getting back to the ISP issue, if I pay £10 pm as market 3 and someone else pays £20 as market 1 for a line that was already in place, and all that was needed was a faceplate (paid for by the customer), why is the market 1 individual paying more at all?

Edited by camieabz (Thu 21-Jul-11 16:50:37)

It all arises from attempts to manipulate the market and arrive at a high level of wholesale and retail competition.

Which is Ofcom's reason for being there (beyond other jobs), ensuring the best speed, QoS is a long way behind in its remit, if there at all.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Plusnet seem to have got a good deal,

What; Plusnet (at BT group company) getting a good/better deal (from another BT group company)?
A cynic would have a field day with that statement