Possibly leaving o2, but want to stay on ADSL2

Another one contemplating leaving o2, have been with them from Nov 2007 at their startup. I am out of contract (by 4.5yrs lol) and concerned Sky may force me into a contract when they fully take over. Sky will honour existing contracts till they end, but I can get no info from o2 or Sky as to what will happen for those out of contract like me.

So contenders are Plusnet (pricewise) or a reseller like Aquiss or Vivaciti (would be on o2 wholesale). Plusnet would be 1st choice however, they state that if estimates of speed are below 4meg they will put you on the upto 6meg (the old BT max ADSL1). My speed estimates are 1- 3 meg average 2.
Fluctuates over the years between 5600 and 5900 saw 61?? once for 19 days actual Bandwidth. Here are my stats as of now:

Uptime: 4 days, 4:29:36
DSL Type: G.992.1 annex A
Channel mode: Interleave
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,176 / 6,230
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 969 / 5,711
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 31.5 / 54.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 7.0 / 5.5

Yes a long line 4.1km actual, but all underground. used to get 4600-4800 on the old ADSL1. So having spoken a few times with PN who would not budge what they would put me on due to what BTW official figures show, have plenty of sceenshots over the years, so how could I persuade them to put me on ADSL2? Would consider resellers but price is double.

Interesting the DSL type is 992.1 used to be 992.5, this changed in 2011, o2 said it is an "ADSL spectrum profile" for line stability, why It changed after a 14 day uptime o2 could not say at the time.

Any thoughts. Thanks
ps. landline is with BT.

Edited by deleted (Tue 07-May-13 22:10:29)

I think you are actually in a contract, just outside the minimum term. So if Sky materially change the contract to your detriment you are free to leave. The question of them forcing you into a new contract won't arise - it would have to be with your agreement.

You say you want to stay on ADSL2, but you aren't on it - you're on g.dmt (ADSL1).

In reply to a post by davetel:

Plusnet would be 1st choice however, they state that if estimates of speed are below 4meg they will put you on the upto 6meg (the old BT max ADSL1). My speed estimates are 1- 3 meg average 2.
Fluctuates over the years between 5600 and 5900 saw 61?? once for 19 days actual Bandwidth. Here are my stats as of now:

Uptime: 4 days, 4:29:36
DSL Type: G.992.1 annex A
Channel mode: Interleave
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,176 / 6,230
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 969 / 5,711
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 31.5 / 54.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 7.0 / 5.5

Yes a long line 4.1km actual, but all underground. used to get 4600-4800 on the old ADSL1. So having spoken a few times with PN who would not budge what they would put me on due to what BTW official figures show, have plenty of sceenshots over the years, so how could I persuade them to put me on ADSL2? Would consider resellers but price is double.

Interesting the DSL type is 992.1 used to be 992.5, this changed in 2011, o2 said it is an "ADSL spectrum profile" for line stability, why It changed after a 14 day uptime o2 could not say at the time.

Any thoughts. Thanks
ps. landline is with BT.

ADSL 1 is ds capped at 8mbps (8198kbps) not 6mbps DSL type is 992.1 which is adsl 1 Longer lines can sometime benefit from adsl G.992.1 Because of the frequencies it uses ,as for the upstream sync speed I'm not too sure what the caps are on WBC 21CN products
If you are outside the min 12mths term then you can leave without penalty at any time, by requesting a MAC code and observing the 7day notice period before giving the MAC to the new ISP

Edited by tommy45 (Tue 07-May-13 22:36:03)

Don't move. It's hassle and it's not worth it.

Sky is one of the best out there.

You are in contract, you just have no minimum term. You are always in a contract.
Your contract will go over to sky.

This means that yes sky will takeover. You will be free to leave sky whenever.
You will not be forced into another year or anything.

Sky is truly unlimited. No traffic shaping on peer to peer etc. It's really decent.
Stay where you are. Test the water. If you don't like it (which you will do) you can leave whenever.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I think you are actually in a contract, just outside the minimum term. So if Sky materially change the contract to your detriment you are free to leave. The question of them forcing you into a new contract won't arise - it would have to be with your agreement.

Not sure of the legal bit but o2 said it rolling, from my o2 account:
Current package: O2 Home Broadband Standard
You're not in contract.

You get a download speed of around 2.0 meg.

Other customers with lines like yours get between 1.0 meg and 4.0 meg.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

You say you want to stay on ADSL2, but you aren't on it - you're on g.dmt (ADSL1).

That�s what I thought so I just rang them, it is ADSL1 but now they call it �ADSL Profile up to 8meg�, so now it poses another question how is it possible to get my sync when on BT max was av of 4700. Although it was tech they said I 'm not in any form of contract.

Although it was tech they said I 'm not in any form of contract.

You are getting confused here.

Basically you are not in a minimum term contract. This means that you can leave whenever. You are not still in the 12 month tie in.

You still have to abide to o2s contract. E.g. you cannot access illegal material on your o2 broadband etc. You are still in this contract! You can leave whenever but to use the service you must be within o2's T&C

Sky are taking over existing o2 customers broadband...
So you will not be in a minimum term contract with Sky. You can leave whenever. You will not be in another 12 month tie in...

HOWEVER you will have to abide to Skys contract / T&C. So you cannot access illegal material etc. You can leave whenever.

When Sky say they are moving over existing contracts they just mean they are taking over all o2 customers connections on the same terms as now.

So if you are free to leave on o2 you are free to leave when Sky takeover.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Tue 07-May-13 23:08:51)

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

Although it was tech they said I 'm not in any form of contract.

You are getting confused here. ..............

When Sky say they are moving over existing contracts they just mean they are taking over all o2 customers connections on the same terms as now.

So if you are free to leave on o2 you are free to leave when Sky takeover.

Now why could'nt o2 explain it that clearly, said I'm not that good on legal, thanks makes me feel a bit better. Off to bed now.

Are we sure that the Sky packages it seems O2/Be customers will be asked to move to later will not have a minimum term? Like many "upgrades" do even within an ISP's product range.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Are we sure that the Sky packages it seems O2/Be customers will be asked to move to later will not have a minimum term? Like many "upgrades" do even within an ISP's product range.

No one seems sure.

Main concern for me is maintaining a thruput of around 5000. Still can't see how is it possible to get my sync on ADSL1 which I would love to keep with whoever, and convincing any ISP, unless its due to o2's euipment and not being on BTmax. Even o2 the few times I have needed tech always say thats extraordinary.

Plusnet would be 1st choice however, they state that if estimates of speed are below 4meg they will put you on the upto 6meg (the old BT max ADSL1).

That can easily be sorted for you If you choose to go with us, just drop me a PM with your username and I'll get one of the team here to make sure the order goes through on ADSL2 / +

I to was concerned about being in Contract or not as my account states my contract ended Feb 2012 so I was put through to retentions who signed me up for a 12 Contract ending May 3rd 2014. Having waited a couple of days I checked "My Account" overview and it still states my contract ended Feb 2012 and there is apparently nothing O2 can do to change those detail but have assured me that I am in a 12 month contract and Sky will honour it.
My concern still is that when the contracts transfer to Sky later in the year will the notes on my account get transferred as well as the fact that I have agreed to a new 12 month contract.

Surely on exchanges with WBC available you just connect the users, and let the DLM handle the various line settings.

Or is there a suggestion you try and second guess line performance, which is a dodgy game if based on the checker systems and pre-limit the product profile?

We are still offering the ADSL2 (old upto 12meg product) through O2 Wholesale £18.00 no connection and monthly contract.

I believe we now just place on ADSL2+ where available, if it's not available then obviously we'll just place the order on 20CN instead.

Just had it clarified, if 21CN is available then that's what we'll place the order on.

In reply to a post by davetel:

Main concern for me is maintaining a thruput of around 5000. Still can't see how is it possible to get my sync on ADSL1 which I would love to keep with whoever, and convincing any ISP, unless its due to o2's euipment and not being on BTmax. Even o2 the few times I have needed tech always say thats extraordinary.

That fact that your router is choosing to sync on G.dmt (ADSL 1 upto 8mbps) is because the router has decided that that mode is best for your line, due to the line length /attenuation , and other factors that are determined at time of sync it will quite likely give you a higher sync speed than if it used ADSL2+ G.992.5 or ADSL2 G.992.3 , If you moved to sky it's always a possibility that their DLM could clobber your speed(all in the name of stability ,allegedly) Even if you switch to a BT 21CN based product your router could well choose G.DMT , or ADSL2 G.992.3

Edited by tommy45 (Wed 08-May-13 10:08:55)

In reply to a post by tommy45:

That fact that your router is choosing to sync on G.dmt (ADSL 1 upto 8mbps) is because the router has decided that that mode is best for your line, due to the line length /attenuation , and other factors that are determined at time of sync it will quite likely give you a higher sync speed than if it used ADSL2+ G.992.5 or ADSL2 G.992.3 , If you moved to sky it's always a possibility that their DLM could clobber your speed(all in the name of stability ,allegedly) Even if you switch to a BT 21CN based product your router could well choose G.DMT , or ADSL2 G.992.3

O2 changed for stability after 14 days up!!!!! Put own 585 router on to see and that was at 992.1 in past it 992.5 as well, so rang 02

In reply to a post by chrisparr:

Just had it clarified, if 21CN is available then that's what we'll place the order on.

Will pm you later. Various sales guys and tech at PN said its automatic-due to BTW/BTOR figures.

Maybe I should rename post �Possibly leaving o2, but want to keep existing sync� lol.
Any reason why ADSL1 sync would be higher on o2�s stuff than it was with BT?

In reply to a post by davetel:

Any reason why ADSL1 sync would be higher on o2�s stuff than it was with BT?

The BT DLM profile system of course!

The sync is pretty much out performing expectations looking at the attenuation, only by trying will you know if it maintains the same sort of sync.

In reply to a post by chrisparr:

I believe we now just place on ADSL2+ where available, if it's not available then obviously we'll just place the order on 20CN instead.

Just had it clarified, if 21CN is available then that's what we'll place the order on.

Ah but ... .

Are you sure it isn't provisioned on 21CN, (WBMC to be precise), with an ADSL profile?

In reply to a post by davetel:

Any reason why ADSL1 sync would be higher on o2�s stuff than it was with BT?

The BT DLM profile system of course!


Aha, the dreaded DLM profile. Although a friend who's still with BT went from 7500 to @12100 on 21CN

Edited by deleted (Wed 08-May-13 20:55:29)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by chrisparr:

I believe we now just place on ADSL2+ where available, if it's not available then obviously we'll just place the order on 20CN instead.

Just had it clarified, if 21CN is available then that's what we'll place the order on.

Ah but ... .

Are you sure it isn't provisioned on 21CN, (WBMC to be precise), with an ADSL profile?

Will wait to hear from Chris at PN tomorrow, PN told sales def said it would be old dslmax (20cn) up to 6meg (six) as per their terms I read on their site, always 'six meg'. Assume they restrict to 6meg themselves, so I should just squeeze in.

The 10% figure in advertising might be 6Meg on old ADSL Max service, but if line is capable nothing stopping it syncing at 8128Kbps.

Someone has their wires crossed

Just a thought, Is ADSL1 upload capped at 448, or have I missed something over the years as mine is as below.

Uptime: 6 days, 5:36:00
DSL Type: G.992.1 annex A
Channel mode: Interleave
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,176 / 6,230
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 969 / 5,711

Edited by deleted (Thu 09-May-13 23:02:25)

It depends how it's provisioned, I'm afraid. A bit complex at first.

If on 20CN, which is doubtful, then yes, unless you have the Premium ADSL product, (I'm not sure off-hand whether PN do/did that), when it is 832kbps.

If provisioned on IPSC, which is the norm for exchanges where there is no 21CN (WBC) BT Wholesale kit, I don't think it is capped at all.

If provisioned on 21CN/WBC but with an ADSL line profile, I'm fairly sure it isn't capped either.

If provisioned as ADSL2+ it is capped at 448kbps but is uncapped within 48 hours on request, after first connection.

However, on any uncapped version, if interleaving is applied then it is capped at 888kbps.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

If provisioned as ADSL2+ it is capped at 448kbps but is uncapped within 48 hours on request, after first connection

Only applicable to Plusnet. Most others it is uncapped on ADSL2+.

Yes. I was thinking in Plusnet terms. Thanks.

What about the 888 when interleaved? Do you happen to know if that is common?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

What about the 888 when interleaved? Do you happen to know if that is common?

Common but not universal .

Back in the day when I was Interleaved it was 888 or even 444 (maybe like PN's 448?).

But E7er always seems to be Interleaved with speeds around 1.2 Meg: e.g. http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/freeserve/t/4234384...

All others I recollect are 888K.

EDIT: I wonder if it has to do with the Up Interleave depth while the router only reports the Down depth as Interleaved. Only way to find out is to put a busybox router on it and look for the D: lines.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Fri 10-May-13 02:14:02)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

If on 20CN, which is doubtful, then yes, unless you have the Premium ADSL product, (I'm not sure off-hand whether PN do/did that), when it is 832kbps.

If provisioned on IPSC, which is the norm for exchanges where there is no 21CN (WBC) BT Wholesale kit, I don't think it is capped at all.

What's diff between 20CN & IPSC? Cuz if IPSC is where there is no 21CN then it must have only 20CN.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

If provisioned on 21CN/WBC but with an ADSL line profile, I'm fairly sure it isn't capped either.

If provisioned as ADSL2+ it is capped at 448kbps but is uncapped within 48 hours on request, after first connection.

21CN is available at my exchange. Sorry what I should have said in post is, 'is ADSL1 uploads maximum speed 448', as mine is syncd. at 969

As above PN uncap is on request. Wierd.

Edited by deleted (Fri 10-May-13 11:01:52)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

What's diff between 20CN & IPSC? Cuz if IPSC is where there is no 21CN then it must have only 20CN.

By 20CN I'm meaning the old-style handover to the ISP using BT Centrals or Central Pluses. As such, it will have 448/832 options.

IPSC still uses the 20CN DSLAM but at some point in the BTW Cloud it routes onto the WBC backhaul and is delivered through dedicated (i.e. not shared with 21CN/WBC/WBMC traffic) MSILs at one of ten BTW nodes. That is how most if not all ISPs now handle it.

So are you now on Plusnet? Or have you ordered it and now sent in an upload uncap request before connection?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

So are you now on Plusnet? Or have you ordered it and now sent in an upload uncap request before connection?

No, think I will stay put for a while, certainly till after June due to two hols. want to be aound at a changeover. Also for consideration is now o2 tech and Cs (rang at different times), state that Sky have bought the exchange equipment as well as customers, so o2 customers will still stay connected on o2 stuff, but may eventually be on a Sky package but still be on the same hardware.

Of course it could all be tosh, but as they said, I would imagine Sky would be hard pushed to move 500,000 lines to their network in the next year from this August.

Edited by deleted (Fri 10-May-13 14:18:43)

Another thought of course is if one has probs of speed is trying convince a new ISP of speed as before my official is 2 meg. reset earlier after power glitch at:

Uptime: 0 days, 4:05:25
DSL Type: G.992.1 annex A
Channel mode: Interleave
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,163 / 6,403
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 969 / 5,849
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 31.5 / 55.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 7.0 / 5.0

speedtest here
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

My BTOR BB engineer neighbour said last night that on BT21CN, the sync will always be lower than o2 as BT cut it back, and then apply the profile system, so us on a long line would suffer more. Were both on the same cab he gets 4000-4500, (he gets BB for free with BT) when he was on LLU, got about same as me. He said BT and Plusnet "will give the fastest speed they can". They being the operative word, not the fastest the line can take. Rang PN earlier today, and he kept repeating "the fastest we can" each time I asked is that the fastest the line can take! PN or Vivaciti are my main contenders. Vivaciti can provide on o2W/telefonicaW line

Edited by deleted (Tue 14-May-13 13:23:05)

21CN WBC is a live calculation for IP Profile i.e. 88.2% of the sync, so that worry is gone.

There are differences in how the exchange hardware is configured, and the way that DLM works, i.e. what one provider considers stable and allows you to sync faster is different to another.

BUT with WBC now allowing 3dB target margins, it can for stable lines be faster than other services.

There is some truth in it, but nothing like as much as there used to be.

On O2 I think you will find your maximum speed test result is between 83.5% and 84% of your connection speed.

On BT Wholesale lines the IP Profile system used to go in nasty jumps of mainly 512kbps (below 8Mbps) and 1Mbps above that. It also took days to adjust on upward moves.

It is now an instant change and is 88.2% of sync. A decent ISP will supply well over 90% of the IP Profile as maximum throughput, but real life 24/7 will vary as it does on O2.

Some ISPs, Plusnet and (certainly in the past Entanet), hold a copy of the IP Profile and use that to buffer traffic in their system to prevent package loss at the exchange MSAN/DSLAM.

I'm not sure about IPSC IP Profiling. It may still have the steps. More info in these pages.

Right so current sync for instance 5849 would give a profile of @ 5158, but would that be the thruput?. The point he was making was that the actual sync would drop, so while he gets 4500@ max sync I make it that the profile would be 3969. I said to him are you sure the actual sync would be lower, I won't print his reply. lol.

You cannot be sure the sync will be lower, the same or higher until you try no-one can be sure.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

You cannot be sure the sync will be lower, the same or higher until you try no-one can be sure.

True, perhaps ignorance is bliss. Straight choice now, PN price, or Vivaciti o2w, and twice the price. Back to work now. Cheers

That sounds a very strange statement to me!!

I've recently transferred from O2 to BT & can confirm that I'm syncing at a considerably higher speed & obtaining higher Speed Tests on Thinkbroadband's tester!

In reply to a post by johnjburness:

That sounds a very strange statement to me!!

Thats why I thought I should post on here. Were you on o2LLU before you went to BT?

In reply to a post by davetel:

Thats why I thought I should post on here. Were you on o2LLU before you went to BT?

Yes!

In reply to a post by johnjburness:

Yes!

Good to know if I do go with them. Thanks

You do realise "BT" in this context means nearly every ISP? It's BT Wholesale, and BT (Retail) Broadband is just one of well over 100 suppliers of that?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

You do realise "BT" in this context means nearly every ISP? It's BT Wholesale, and BT (Retail) Broadband is just one of well over 100 suppliers of that?

Yes.

Thanks to all.

sadly plusnet run their own profile system which isnt live tho, worth warning the OP on that.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

sadly plusnet run their own profile system which isnt live tho, worth warning the OP on that.

Guess that's why there so many queries on PN's own forum about profiles not rising after many days sync, but BT's speedtest puts the posters profiles higher than PN's.