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Standard User chrishooper78
(newbie) Wed 07-Jan-15 16:28:20
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Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake?


[link to this post]
 
Due to attractive price and cashback incentives I am looking to migrate our entire phone and broadband package to Talk Talk from BT.

However, I am concerned about receiving poor speeds on Talk Talk compared with the current service with BT.

We live in a suburban area with ADSL Max only (up to 8kb/s, I believe), but in reality we only get 3.5. At busy times when my neighbours are all watching Netflix this can drop a little, with pretty poor service at times. I assume that most of my neighbours are on BT.

When I called BT to check on contract termination he mentioned that BT get better access to the lines, as they are owned and operated by BT. Hence, in a nutshell my query is: will my new Talk Talk line be forced out at times and receive poorer service, particularly at peak periods?

Many thanks.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 07-Jan-15 16:53:53
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: chrishooper78] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by chrishooper78:
he mentioned that BT get better access to the lines, as they are owned and operated by BT.
He's talking bs. It is a typical misrepresentation put out by BT Retail. Openreach, who operate the lines, have to offer the same level of service to all providers, by regulation.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 07-Jan-15 16:54:37
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: chrishooper78] [link to this post]
 
BT retail should not be making statements like that - under Ofcom rules they are not allowed any level of preferential access.

However, TalkTalk are very cheap and may suffer from high congestion. Some people find them fine but others have major issues with them.

I would personally say that BT are expensive for the service levels they provide - would probably look at their service as middle tier with a higher tier pricetag.

Talktalk are low tier on both service and price from my knowledge (I don't use TalkTalk and never have).

PlusNet are probably middle tier on price and service as are probably Sky.

Then you have the ISPs that could be considered higher tier for both like AAISP.

I personally don't believe BT are worth the more premium pricing and am moving away from them soon. But, I will not move to Talktalk as I think their price is too low to provide a consistently decent service.


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Standard User chrishooper78
(newbie) Wed 07-Jan-15 16:55:52
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Yes, I thought that might be the case, thank you.
Standard User chrishooper78
(newbie) Wed 07-Jan-15 17:02:30
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
However, TalkTalk are very cheap and may suffer from high congestion. Some people find them fine but others have major issues with them.


Where would such congestion be a problem - at the exchange or local end? There are few Talk Talk customers in my area (mostly BT / Sky).
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 07-Jan-15 17:13:42
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: chrishooper78] [link to this post]
 
If it is the TalkTalk non-LLU product then that is likely to be under-resourced, (which wouldn't matter for email and browsing but could be a mess for YouTube or other streaming. Also not the headline price. Have you checked? Do they in fact still offer "out of area" broadband to new customers? I just had a look around their site and can't find it.

Which exchange is it please?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 57.1/14.8Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM

"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
Standard User TheEulerID
(member) Wed 07-Jan-15 17:30:18
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: chrishooper78] [link to this post]
 
It won't be official policy, but probably somebody in a call centre chancing their luck to improve their performance stats. If that was happening to a significant level there would be mega-complaints to Ofcom by competitors.
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Jan-15 08:24:15
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: chrishooper78] [link to this post]
 
Performance issues could be down to almost anything in the network (including central peering links). Talktalk's reputation for performance has not been great - whether they are better now I can't confirm. You may find they are perfectly fine for what you want - but if you get congestion then breaking a long contract period could be next to impossible.

Personally I prefer to pay a sensible cost and expect reasonable service than pay very low costs and then complain if it all goes wrong. But if the priority is entirely down to price and happy to potentially suffer the issues of getting something that appears too cheap to sustain then you could be fine with them.

PS - whilst there may be few customers in your area now, if it is an 18 month contract, then that position could easily change.

Edited by ian72 (Thu 08-Jan-15 08:25:16)

Standard User baby_frogmella
(experienced) Thu 08-Jan-15 09:51:38
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
Performance issues could be down to almost anything in the network (including central peering links). Talktalk's reputation for performance has not been great - whether they are better now I can't confirm. You may find they are perfectly fine for what you want - but if you get congestion then breaking a long contract period could be next to impossible.


There's nothing wrong with TT network performance, its no better or worse than Sky LLU, BTw, C&W etc. If TT's network was bad their 4,000,000+ customers would leave them in droves (no matter how cheap they are)....as Orange LLU found out to their cost a few years ago when their network became pants.

OP,
If you don't mind using the TT forums (uk based) and saving a few pennies in the process then you'll be fine on Talktalk. Prior to joining talkTalk I only went with top end ISPs such as Zen, Goscomb, Netplan et al but having been with TT since 2010, their network is just as good but without the eye watering prices.

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TalkTalk Business Fibre 79987/19999 kbps
Powered by Asus RT-AC87R
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Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Jan-15 10:20:59
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
Andrew has published last months speed test stats on the main site.

It may be down to technology or customer base but it is telling how much lower the talktalk performance stats are compared to the ones above them (also surprising how much higher BTs are). There would need to be a lot of analysis done behind the scenes to find the root cause but it does appear on the face of it that talktalk is probably more contended/lower performing than most of the ISPs.

I still don't trust a service that is that cheap - it doesn't sit right with me that they can make enough money to put the level of service into it that I want. I am not saying that more expensive ISPs are automatically better but to do things so cheaply corners must be being cut (it cannot in my opinion be entirely down to amazing efficiency).
Standard User baby_frogmella
(experienced) Thu 08-Jan-15 10:46:36
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
Andrew has published last months speed test stats on the main site.

It may be down to technology or customer base but it is telling how much lower the talktalk performance stats are compared to the ones above them (also surprising how much higher BTs are). There would need to be a lot of analysis done behind the scenes to find the root cause but it does appear on the face of it that talktalk is probably more contended/lower performing than most of the ISPs.

I still don't trust a service that is that cheap - it doesn't sit right with me that they can make enough money to put the level of service into it that I want. I am not saying that more expensive ISPs are automatically better but to do things so cheaply corners must be being cut (it cannot in my opinion be entirely down to amazing efficiency).


There are very simple reasons why BtW based ISPs rank higher than talktalk for speeds:

1) TalkTalk's default SNR is 12db whereas BtW is 6 or 9db (can't remember which) and as many people will just leave the SNR as it is that automatically gives BTw based ISPs better speeds.

2) For those on short/stable lines, 21CN based BtW service can lower the SNR to 3db whereas TalkTalk cannot go lower than 6db...again another factor in favour of Btw isps (though obviously you could use a router siuch as Billionj 7800N to lower the SNR)

Like i said i used to be a broadband 'snob' prior to joining TT but IMHO their network performance is excellent and on a par with other decent isps. The reason why TTR are cheap is because of their overseas support...its simple economics. If the OP requires top class support on a par with the likes of Zen, IDnet Goscomb, AAISP etc then he/she should consider TalkTalk Business.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
TalkTalk Business Fibre 79987/19999 kbps
Powered by Asus RT-AC87R
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Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Jan-15 10:55:50
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
Hmm, just looked at TalkTalk prices and it appears for FTTC and phone they actually aren't that much different to PlusNet. On a like for like service (or as close as you can get to that) then the costs are probably actually pretty much the same. It is the headline costs that I normally see of incredibly low price ADSL but that doesn't appear to really carry over into the FTTC world.

As far as noise targets are concerned I thought FTTC was the same provision across the board - can the ISP choose a different SNR as standard?
Standard User gregormac
(learned) Thu 08-Jan-15 11:20:31
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: chrishooper78] [link to this post]
 
If you are truly going to an up to 8Mb connection you will probably not connect onto the 21CN network and will be on the old 20CN ADSL1 system. I have friends who are on that with Talk Talk and at evenings its unusable, whereas I get full speed from a different ISP both on same exchange, so its not exchange congestion. 20CN is old and expensive for the ISP's to buy bandwidth, and Talk Talk will I suspect be putting all its 20CN users over limited bandwidth.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 08-Jan-15 11:26:41
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
To add some more information

For ADSL/ADSL2+ (Mean figures for December 2014)

BT 6.2 Mbps
PlusNet 6.7 Mbps
Sky 6.9 Mbps
TalkTalk 6.6 Mbps

The overall figures include the mix of technologies and the blog showed how different the proportions of FTTC are within the various providers.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User baby_frogmella
(experienced) Thu 08-Jan-15 11:37:14
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
As far as noise targets are concerned I thought FTTC was the same provision across the board - can the ISP choose a different SNR as standard?


Correct, SNR is standard across the board for FTTC products however i would have thought there are more customers on ADSL(2+) for all ISPs therefore SNR margins of those customers would play a major part in the speed results.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
TalkTalk Business Fibre 79987/19999 kbps
Powered by Asus RT-AC87R
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Standard User baby_frogmella
(experienced) Thu 08-Jan-15 11:41:24
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: gregormac] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gregormac:
If you are truly going to an up to 8Mb connection you will probably not connect onto the 21CN network and will be on the old 20CN ADSL1 system. I have friends who are on that with Talk Talk and at evenings its unusable, whereas I get full speed from a different ISP both on same exchange, so its not exchange congestion. 20CN is old and expensive for the ISP's to buy bandwidth, and Talk Talk will I suspect be putting all its 20CN users over limited bandwidth.

TalkTalk do not use BT's 21CN network, they have their own LLU ADSL2+ equipment in many exchanges. As for slow speeds on TalkTalk using the BT 20CN network, thats hardly news. Same applies to Sky Connect and O2 Access (RIP).

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
TalkTalk Business Fibre 79987/19999 kbps
Powered by Asus RT-AC87R
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 08-Jan-15 13:55:27
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
We still don't know if he is looking at TalkTalk LLU or the BT Wholesale based product. I don't think they now offer the latter to new customers but may be mistaken.

Nor do we know he has actually checked TalkTalk availability or is just looking at their website.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 57.1/14.8Mbps @ 600m. - IPv4BQM IPv6BQM

"Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly." - G K Chesterton.
Standard User epyon
(experienced) Thu 08-Jan-15 18:07:51
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: chrishooper78] [link to this post]
 
Can't say much bad about talktalk

had a 2nd line with them for 3yrs ish and everything worked good

I had 1 fault but contacted them on their forums and it was sorted out quickly.

SKY FTTC - 40/10
My Ping
Standard User paul_liverpoolfc
(regular) Thu 08-Jan-15 19:02:08
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Re: Switching to Talk Talk from BT - potentially bad mistake


[re: epyon] [link to this post]
 
We've been on Talk Talk Simply Broadband (LLU) since September - when we were put on a Talk Talk line after a mix-up. The speed of our connection (5 Meg) and up-time has been the same as when I was with Vivaciti on LLU.

We've had the odd disconnection for around 20 seconds at a time but I know from my router stats that this has mainly been when the SNR's fallen too low. I started off on a 9db SNR (resulting in a Meg slower speed) but was able to change to a 6db one after a request on the Talk Talk Community forum.

I just wish I could get Talk Talk fibre - my cabinet's been live since September. I do live in a smallish village, though (population 4-5,000).

GPRS > 3G > HSDPA > ADSL > ADSL Max > ADSL2+ > FTTC in next few weeks > FTTP next decade?

Edited by paul_liverpoolfc (Thu 08-Jan-15 19:07:52)

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