Xilo - upload on TTB

Just been on the Xilo website and noticed that if you go with their Soho BT based service you get 1.4Mb upload for adsl, but with their Pro TTB service its only 1Mb up

Is there any reason for the difference?

Either the 1.4 Mbit/s upload service is provided using Annex M, or this is a mistake on their web site. I don't know which explanation is correct.

Up to 1.4bps is what several Entanet resellers used to advertise on ADSL2+ Annex A, where most ISPs said 1.3Mbps. Annex M is the "up to 2.3Mbps" product.

I doubt if the 1.4Mbps is within the current guidelines of being obtained by 10% of the customers, but it will be Annex A.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 04-May-15 12:28:09)

Notice Xilo are one of the few ISPs to advertise "up to 24Mb" aswell. Most ISPs have adjusted this to "up to 16Mb" after the 10% of customers ruling

In reply to a post by bobble_bob:

Notice Xilo are one of the few ISPs to advertise "up to 24Mb" aswell. Most ISPs have adjusted this to "up to 16Mb" after the 10% of customers ruling

That suggests Bob's answer that the absolute maximums are being quoted. My suggestion this was Annex M was based on the "at least 10% of customers will get this speed" ruling being followed.

Assuming the same line, there will not be a huge difference in sync speeds between ISPs using the same technology. Different equipment operators have slightly different technical parameters, but the physical limits of the line do not dramatically improve just because you change ISP.

Hi

The upload on TTB service didn't provide me with more than 700, despite getting around 1300 consistently with BE and PlusNet LLU before that, this is ADSL2+ not Annex M. The problem with TTB was the 9db SNR on upstream that couldn't be changed if I remember correctly.

Luckily FTTC arrived soon after so I upgraded to that.

Regards

Phil

When you say 700, is that 700kbps sync?

Yes, 700kbps.

Ive always synced at 1022kbps on TTB. Was that with all ISPs you were with who used TTB or just Xilo?

Guess like anything depends on noise margin, distance to exchange etc

Edited by bobble_bob (Mon 04-May-15 19:27:54)

In reply to a post by PhilipD:

Hi

The upload on TTB service didn't provide me with more than 700, despite getting around 1300 consistently with BE and PlusNet LLU before that, this is ADSL2+ not Annex M. The problem with TTB was the 9db SNR on upstream that couldn't be changed if I remember correctly.

This has been exactly my experience with TTB through Xilo with an upsync pegged to 700 (730 to be exact), I'm only down the road from the exchange so a bit annoying. I also had syncs of 1.3 with BE on the same line. Doesn't make a lot of difference to me at the moment but in time it might be an issue if my online gaming needs get more demanding.

Edited by deleted (Tue 05-May-15 12:16:47)

Did BE use TTB?

No

In reply to a post by bobble_bob:

Did BE use TTB?

I would imagine not, I used that as an example to illustrate how different providers impose different restrictions on the same line.

This isn't a restriction in place by us, but solely TTB and the profiles they use (and how the upstream margin is controlled against the downstream margin profile).

Some lines get the full 1024, some lines 1023, others anywhere up to the full rate. There's no exact science but BE/O2W didn't control the upstream in the same (restrictive) way that TTB do.

Matt

In reply to a post by uno:

This isn't a restriction in place by us, but solely TTB and the profiles they use (and how the upstream margin is controlled against the downstream margin profile).

Some lines get the full 1024, some lines 1023, others anywhere up to the full rate. There's no exact science but BE/O2W didn't control the upstream in the same (restrictive) way that TTB do.

Matt

Yes I know it's how TTB operate and when I raised it as a ticket yonks ago you did what you could to squeeze a little extra. As I say, it's not been a major issue to me, especially when compared to what has been a very stable connection and service Xilo has delivered

Other than uploading images or whatever, would you notice a difference in general browsing between a 700kbps and a 1024kbps sync?

My previous BE up connection syncd at 1.4 meg and to be honest I haven't noticed any difference in practical terms for my needs, if I do need to upload significant amounts of data (AV type stuff) I use my work's connection which has a crazy fast fibre connection.
For general web browsing and streaming it seems fine.

There was a time when I thought it may have been issue for online gaming but after playing the same game at my mate's house with a fast upload connection, it turns out I'm just rubbish! This may not be the case for newer multi-player games if they demand higher up connection speeds but I can't afford those

Well duck me, just my look ay... just hours from payday so I can order my new Xilo connection and they decide to stop taking orders as they're FINALLY rebranding to UNO...

worst part is no guaranteed date for when I can order a service either bar "Were aiming for 1st June"

and annoying yet, I've now wasted money getting a line installed ready for the service and if I wait it's going to cost me another £15+ for effin line rental..

and now I'm also told the packages may change... (no details of how) so I now believe I've wasted my time...

No matter what I do regarding broadband someone/something will always be there to stop me progressing.

Sorry for the rant but.... ARRRRSE! Now have no idea what to do... can't just keep paying for a line that does nothing more than sound a dial tone and don't really fancy any of the other providers so much... but then maybe I won't fancy UNO either...

Pulse8 for a month, or a long time, looks like a possible option. Or do they insist on the line rental and you will be tied in by your installer?

Vivaciti are another possibility. Have you checked out aquiss? Or are you trying to escape BT Wholesale?

Ive been told by Matt that the ttb Pro packages will remain the same

You can order if you go via the availability checker link but dunno if this would cause issues?

Im assuming other than a company name change, everything else (network, customer service etc) will remain the same?

no forced line rental with P8 ADSL2+ - Inclusive in fibre cost, but still no tie-in.

Not quite sure if its just a rebrand and domain change why they cannot still offer broadband while they transition?

It obviously isn't just that for other packages.

There's also the point Xilo is mainly a business ISP. AIUI uno was originally created to take over the rapidly expanding Home/SOHO side of things.

If that is still the aim there will be quite a lot of admin work to do, and whether or not it is the aim all the ordering and accounting systems will need massive changes and extensive testing that they possibly don't have the resources for whilst adding customers on the old system and products.

Cheers all for the input... I've been at work hence the delay in responses...

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Pulse8 for a month, or a long time, looks like a possible option. Or do they insist on the line rental and you will be tied in by your installer?

Vivaciti are another possibility. Have you checked out aquiss? Or are you trying to escape BT Wholesale?

I might just have to look into that and yes bare in mind I'm trying to escape BTw...

In reply to a post by bobble_bob:

Ive been told by Matt that the ttb Pro packages will remain the same

You can order if you go via the availability checker link but dunno if this would cause issues?

Well I was planning on order the TTB Talk and Surf package that covered line rental too... So not sure if that would be included under the Pro packages you talk of..

I've had a look earlier at the availability checker and may give this a go..

In reply to a post by bobble_bob:

Not quite sure if its just a rebrand and domain change why they cannot still offer broadband while they transition?

I thought that, I asked if I could place an order by phone but nope apparently they have never allowed such a thing to happen.

In reply to a post by bobble_bob:

You can order if you go via the availability checker link but dunno if this would cause issues?

Well I've placed an order for Talk & Surf via the checker and paid all the required charges and it seems to have gone through... Order status is pending and the my silo account has been created ... Had emails to confirm order and payment has been taken.. So hopefully they will let me slide through.

In reply to a post by uno:

This isn't a restriction in place by us, but solely TTB and the profiles they use (and how the upstream margin is controlled against the downstream margin profile).

Some lines get the full 1024, some lines 1023, others anywhere up to the full rate. There's no exact science but BE/O2W didn't control the upstream in the same (restrictive) way that TTB do.

Matt

And yet on A&A using TTB I get about 30 profiles where I can go from 128K up to the full 1.3 and I can do every combination in between

You're referring to profiles than what the line can actually achieve.

The Annex A profiles however are limited to 1M across the board. Annex M profiles do support varying levels of upstream.

Matt

Which is what I have and I can control

So quality tools etc..

The point was upload being in some way restricted at 700k which is not the case, the profile is up to the maximum that TTB allow for the product chosen.

Choosing whatever profile required isn't special that your provider have - everyone has access to the same profiles equally. You get a limited amount of on Annex A and get more if on Annex M.

Matt

If you are on Annex M and cannot select a profile above 1.3Mbps upload, which is how I read what you have posted, there is no point in being on Annex M really, for the sake of 300kbps and the almost certain loss of downstream sync. What *is* your downstream sync?

In reply to a post by bobble_bob:

Ive been told by Matt that the ttb Pro packages will remain the same

You can order if you go via the availability checker link but dunno if this would cause issues?

Just had an email from Uno (Xilo) order has been cancelled and costs refunded!

Whats the difference between the Pulse8 adsl packages XL Home and XL Plus?

It says "Unlimited high priority 3:1" for Home and "Unlimited high priority 2:1" for Plus. What does that mean?

It's garbage.

Pulse8 sounds quite good, but that stuff about the different priorities has to be utter drivel. They don't have their own backhaul and no way can they offer anything like those contention ratios given the wholesale suppliers they use and the prices they charge.

They have a few customers on these forums, and their reports are good. I am in no way knocking the broadband and support services. But those ratios, assuming they are true, have to refer to something completely different from what we would all think of as contention ratios.

In reply to a post by bobble_bob:

It says "Unlimited high priority 3:1" for Home and "Unlimited high priority 2:1" for Plus. What does that mean?

To me, it means that if throughput is 66% or 50% below line speed respectively, the service is operating as sold.

I agree... does seem like a load of rubbish...

Has anyone asked them what they mean by the aforementioned quotes...

I asked who there wholesale provider is, and got a reply that they're connected directly to TTB backend. Not sure if that helps?

I am not sure, but seem to remember that someone mentioned it was for gaming QOS percentage. Makes sense to me and if so not rubbish. They talk priority, not contention. Of course, I stand to be corrected and probably will be - Par for the course!

[chuckle]
Not quite how it is presented then, if that's the case. So rather like Plusnet prioritisation but less sophisticated or comprehensive .

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by bobble_bob:

It says "Unlimited high priority 3:1" for Home and "Unlimited high priority 2:1" for Plus. What does that mean?

To me, it means that if throughput is 66% or 50% below line speed respectively, the service is operating as sold.

I take your point, but I also share Bob's concern that it is very unlikely Pulse8 are buying sufficient backhaul capacity to dedicate bandwidth of 1/3 (Home) or 1/2 (Plus) the sync speed of the connection. I would be asking what the 3:1 and 2:1 figures actually mean in contractual terms and in practice before basing any purchase on them.

I have never noticed any visible contention on my Zen FTTC connection (Zen backhaul), though there is no way Zen are providing me with an uncontended connection on consumer 'fibre broadband'. Zen sell 'NGA Ethernet', which is FTTC or FTTP with uncontended, SLA guaranteed bandwidth - I don't have indicative pricing, but I'm sure it's a lot more than £46.99 per month!

Probably Bob lol - I have never got round to asking them for an explanation, but I am sure they would give one, or edit the page. They really do try their best is seems to me.

Actually asked Adam for an explanation on priority today and got the usual almost immediate reply. Seems it's a priority over standard TT customers. Adam's response below.

Hi Alan,

We�ve been very careful not to mention �contention ratios� on our site as these don�t really exist on our network anymore (Apart from very old IPStream exchanges)



As far as I am aware or rather have been told previously, customers connected to the standard Talk Talk network (not Talk Talk Business) get a standard priority of 7:1 with 7 being the lowest priority and 1 being the highest.



Our Basic XLHome package which is the base offering on the Talk Talk Business network has 3:1 priority on our Talk Talk network which as such gives it a greater priority against the Millions of Talk Talk home users on the Standard Talk Talk network. This is a good thing.



Our XLPlus packages have a priority of 2:1 and the XLPro Package have our highest network priority i.e. 1:1



Of course we can�t really mention anything about Talk Talk on our website (which is a tad difficult when the connections show up as Talk Talk) so I haven�t bothered.



Of course all of the above depends all the other factors like the quality of your line, your distance from the local exchange (or cab if on fibre) and how much bandwidth is available on your local exchange. We do no throttle and always give as much as is available BUT if an exchange does get maxed out and you find that things do slow down then you�ll be better off with a XLPro or XLPlus connection.



On the bundle side, a XLPlus with business line would get fixed quicker than a XLPlus on a home line (care level 2 on the line instead of care level 1)



In fact we�ve only ever had 2 customers who�ve had slowdowns, these were on the Chagford exchange (OpenReach IPstream only). Upgrading them from our 8Mb to 8Mb+ fixed the issue of in the day slowdowns up until last month when a faulty card affect 96 people in the village. Took use several weeks of shouting to fix that one but all 96 customers are now happy, even though only 2 of them were our customers





Having said all that� It has been a while since I queried our prioritisation against standard traffic on the TTB network so I�ll get some more technical BEEF for you as I might be out of date.



Feel free to edit / post my vague wanderings as you will.





Kind Regards

Adam Fullalove

Edited by professor973 (Wed 27-May-15 14:45:03)

Thanks.

That's quite interesting. I shall have to ponder on how the TT system works . What the seven grades will relate to.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

That's quite interesting. I shall have to ponder on how the TT system works . What the seven grades will relate to.

Given that TalkTalk retail throughput operates at line speed all day, you do have to wonder.

No sign of Uno going live yet. Would think they would at least put something on their website explaining whats going on. Wonder how many potential customers they have lost

well they've lost me... specially as I asked Matt on here the other day if there was any more info and didn't even have the courtesy to reply....

Mainly because I didn't see any message. You can always reach us via the normal communication methods though so you'd get confirmation of our receipt and then we'll be notified of it.

Matt

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/4414061-r...

One unexpected issue popped up so we're addressing that first.

Matt