Only ADSLMax available at my exchange. Which ISP do I want?

See title- no LLU operators at my Market A exchange, or anything at all other than ADSLMax. I'm quite far from the exchange, too, so I can't expect great speeds whatever I do, but I want to salvage as high a speed and (especially) as low a latency as possible.

With that in mind, which ISP do you guys suggest? It needs to be unlimited (as in actually truly unlimited) and have no traffic shaping at all. I need to remotely access various servers, so low latency is a priority if possible. It's also important that I'm not locked into using a particular proprietary router/modem.

AAISP sound great, but lack of a real unmetered option is a dealbreaker.

Thanks

In reply to a post by j314:

It needs to be unlimited (as in actually truly unlimited) and have no traffic shaping at all. I need to remotely access various servers, so low latency is a priority if possible.

Is that really what you want (streaming, gaming or VoIP can be [censored] up if you start a download at the same time)? Or do you actually mean your line to run at maximum capacity at all times no matter what type of traffic mix you are using but with priority being given to the time critical traffic such as streaming, gaming or VoIP?

Plusnet should be right for you but you can rule them out for two reasons:

1. Their pricing on exchanges such as yours is terrible - BT is cheaper.

2. Their support is going to pot, when it works it's fine but when things go wrong...

Have you checked out whether there is any prospect of fibre? http://www.superfast-openreach.co.uk/where-and-when/ - also check for BDUK funded upgrades - list of websites here: http://www.superfast-openreach.co.uk/rural-broadband/

That may suggest you should avoid getting in to a long term contract.

If all you have available is ADSL Max, there will be a great deal of commonality whichever supplier you go with. The supplier will have to use the BT Wholesale DSLAM with its associated DLM (which are important factors in determining the sync speed), also the BT Wholesale backhaul. There will be some differences depending on how the traffic is handed over to the ISP and the geographical location(s) of that handover (which are the main factors affecting latency).

Unfortunately 20CN backhaul capacity is expensive and people are increasingly migrating away from this system as the roll out of newer technologies continues. Providers face difficult decisions about capacity versus visible contention (with contention causing jitter, noticeable slowdowns and, in more extreme cases, packet loss).

I believe Virgin, Sky and TalkTalk have stopped offering new 'off net' connections via BT Wholesale - these services, even if still available, have had a fair number of contention related complaints.

One important factor is whether you require static IP, or whether dynamic is acceptable.

It sounds like any of the quality BT Wholesale based providers can potentially meet your needs, but unlimited options are rare and possibly non existent because of the high backhaul costs to the provider on 20CN. AAISP do not do unlimited other than on their expensive dedicated bandwidth products (Ethernet over FTTx and so on). I'm fairly sure Zen's unlimited broadband product is only available over 21CN or Zen's own network, though you could ask Zen sales (I think they will only offer you one of their more expensive and limited '8000' products). I don't know if any of the other smaller providers could help, such as IDnet. Plusnet is a possibility, but their user forum has a lot of disquiet at the moment and they typically charge more on a Market A exchange.

Hopefully someone in a similar position to you will be able to offer some advice. I'm in a fairly small town, which meant we were not top of the queue for any upgrades. We had what is now Virgin cable in most of the town before there was any ADSL and, over the years, we have been fortunate enough to get 20CN ADSL, 21CN, a couple of LLU providers and FTTC via the commercial rollout to almost all cabs (a couple more were enabled via the local BDUK project). Hopefully, in time, there is some sort of upgrade available to you, but I realise you are after something for now.

Edited by deleted (Wed 14-Oct-15 08:41:09)

It has to be BT doesn't it. I'm on 20CN ADSL with a Billion 7800n router and get consistent 6.8mbps. Unlimited broadband is costing under £6 per month on a 12 month contract

The two mass market ISPs most folk use in my area, very rural with line connections to 20CN exchanges (EO) are BT and Plusnet, other smaller ISP's are available at greater cost with sometimes only fixed monthly GB usage available.

Customer service is sometimes a problem with these larger ISPs if you need faults sorted but more in the length of time spent trying to get through in the case of Plusnet UK CS, BT first line support is based in India AFAIK.

I can only get a stable connection with a sync rate under 4Meg due to a long line length to the exchange and have had no issues with that from my ISP.

First year costs are usually low due to various ISP promotions and can be even cheaper via cashback deals from cashback sites.

Line rental from BT and PN is not the cheapest available but bundle deals (BB+Line rental/calls etc) make BB on it's own from an ISP usually more expensive.

Edited by Apprentice (Wed 14-Oct-15 09:53:28)

BT is your best bet, but this will depend own if you require a static IP or not!

Me too.

GU28 0PJ with Lodsworth Exchange 1485m away according to Sam Knows. Only BT found to be an acceptable ISP and have Business Broadband Unlimited, Business Value PSTN phone line and Business Call Essentials Plan & Call Package with them.

The Line Installation cost £115 and FOC for Broadband Installation.

Using a Draytek 2860Vn plus router which reports syncing with G.DMT Annex A with Up 832000, Down 7840000, SNR 6 and Att 38.

A Fixed IP is satisfied using DDNS as it is cheaper than being provided with a fixed IP from BT. Yes the service is not zippy but able to use VoIP and remote CCTV over VPN. Obviously not everything at once!

Will shortly be using bonding, with the need for a second line, using ShareBand which should almost double the current speed. OK the monthly rental for this setup is not cheap but there isn't a viable alternative. Yet.

A BT Business broadband connection does look to be the best, given the OP's clear need for fast fault fixing and a decent SLA. Possibly with a second line as backup with someone like Aquiss or vivaciti on a residential allowance package.

Bonding or load sharing are also a possibility.

I must say I'm always very doubtful of someone needing an unlimited allowance on a home business connection. Businesses with dozens of employees rarely need that.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 14-Oct-15 11:15:14)

Okay wow thanks everyone, very helpful advice in here.

In reply to a post by jelv:

Is that really what you want (streaming, gaming or VoIP can be [censored] up if you start a download at the same time)? Or do you actually mean your line to run at maximum capacity at all times no matter what type of traffic mix you are using but with priority being given to the time critical traffic such as streaming, gaming or VoIP?

I did more mean "no throttling upon detection of certain kinds of traffic". Ideally I'd also prefer to handle QoS myself at the router level, but I'm less fussed about that really.

In reply to a post by jelv:

Plusnet should be right for you but you can rule them out for two reasons:
1. Their pricing on exchanges such as yours is terrible - BT is cheaper.
2. Their support is going to pot, when it works it's fine but when things go wrong...

Okay, thanks. I was indeed considering them and it sounds like they're a bad idea.

In reply to a post by jelv:

Have you checked out whether there is any prospect of fibre?

I have and there's nothing unfortunately.

In reply to a post by David_W:

If all you have available is ADSL Max, there will be a great deal of commonality whichever supplier you go with. The supplier will have to use the BT Wholesale DSLAM with its associated DLM (which are important factors in determining the sync speed), also the BT Wholesale backhaul. There will be some differences depending on how the traffic is handed over to the ISP and the geographical location(s) of that handover (which are the main factors affecting latency).

Makes sense.

In reply to a post by David_W:

One important factor is whether you require static IP, or whether dynamic is acceptable.

Not critical- I'd prefer it but I can always use DyDNS and similar services to achieve a similar result.

In reply to a post by David_W:

It sounds like any of the quality BT Wholesale based providers can potentially meet your needs, but unlimited options are rare and possibly non existent because of the high backhaul costs to the provider on 20CN.

BT Retail does offer an unlimited product even on 20CN. Are there any disadvantages to going with them?

In reply to a post by 961a:

It has to be BT doesn't it.

Yeah, looks like...

In reply to a post by Apprentice:

The two mass market ISPs most folk use in my area, very rural with line connections to 20CN exchanges (EO) are BT and Plusnet, other smaller ISP's are available at greater cost with sometimes only fixed monthly GB usage available.

Okay, BT/Plusnet again...

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Thanks trolleybus- BT definitely sounds like the best option here

Quick questions for anyone:
* Can I get 800k upload on BT Retail? This seems to be a controversial point. If I can, would it affect latency and/or downstream bandwidth?
* Is there a significant difference between BT's Home and Business broadband products? They seem to be roughly the same price, but Business gets an older model of their router and gives the option to pay more for a static IP. Are they handled/prioritised differently?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

A BT Business broadband connection does look to be the best, given the OP's clear need for fast fault fixing and a decent SLA. Possibly with a second line as backup with someone like Aquiss or vivaciti on a residential allowance package.

Bonding or load sharing are also a possibility.

I must say I'm always very doubtful of someone needing an unlimited allowance on a home business connection. Businesses with dozens of employees rarely need that.

It's for both home and work-from-home use. I download a lot and in 2015 I don't want to be worrying about usage on my home connection. Even my phone's 3G connection is 100% unlimited (and I've verified this- downloading hundreds of gigs over it some months.)

I might get a second line and bond in the future, but not straight away. Does anyone other than AAISP actually offer that right now?

In reply to a post by j314:

Okay wow thanks everyone, very helpful advice in here.

Quick questions for anyone:
* Can I get 800k upload on BT Retail? This seems to be a controversial point. If I can, would it affect latency and/or downstream bandwidth?
* Is there a significant difference between BT's Home and Business broadband products? They seem to be roughly the same price, but Business gets an older model of their router and gives the option to pay more for a static IP. Are they handled/prioritised differently?

IIRC when I moved a few years back the exchange only supported ADSLMax. I got about 6 meg down, just 0.375 up. It wasn't until they switched on ADSL 2+ Annex M that upload went up to 0.8 meg (and download to 15)

I used BT Home version as I didn't need a static IP. Came with a HH3 at the time.

I think its an up to 832Kbps on BT... would be silly if it wasn't but not sure if they might reserve the higher upstream for business or premium extra?

What does the BT Wholesaler Checker state for your line/address... not postcode.

You'll only get 0.375 up on 20CN. You need ADSL2 to get more

Uh uh! ADSL Max "Premium" is "up to" 832kbps. It is or used to be available from most ISPs, before BT Wholesale ADSL2+ existed.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Uh uh! ADSL Max "Premium" is "up to" 832kbps. It is or used to be available from most ISPs, before BT Wholesale ADSL2+ existed.

Thanks. Didn't know that. Guess it comes at a "premium"!

Must say it's not the upload that concerns me, so long as I can get 6.8mbps down constantly things work ok much as I might whinge on for ADSL2

I think you perhaps mean ADSL2+ in both posts, not ADSL2. They are far from the same thing. ADSL2 as such is not sold in this country.

There's some duff information been posted in response to this.

Max Premium is available on any 20CN exchange which as stated gives you up to 832kbps. BTw charge ISPs significantly more for this - on Plusnet it costs an extra £7.83 per month (I was on this on my 20CN exchange until I got FTTC earlier this year). I would suspect BT Retail would also charge more and it may only be available on their business products.

Edit: Max Premium also gives you higher priority on the BT network and may help with download speeds at peak times. Your download sync speed won't be affected if you opt for Max Premium.

Edited by jelv (Wed 14-Oct-15 21:26:40)

In reply to a post by jelv:

Max Premium is available on any 20CN exchange which as stated gives you up to 832kbps. ... Max Premium also gives you higher priority on the BT network and may help with download speeds at peak times. Your download sync speed won't be affected if you opt for Max Premium.

I can confirm that jelv is correct. In my direct experience, it will solve typical exchange congestion issues with 20CN/IPStream, because your traffic gets higher priority.

Edited by richi (Wed 14-Oct-15 22:24:01)

In reply to a post by jelv:

There's some duff information been posted in response to this.

Max Premium is available on any 20CN exchange which as stated gives you up to 832kbps. BTw charge ISPs significantly more for this - on Plusnet it costs an extra £7.83 per month (I was on this on my 20CN exchange until I got FTTC earlier this year). I would suspect BT Retail would also charge more and it may only be available on their business products.

Edit: Max Premium also gives you higher priority on the BT network and may help with download speeds at peak times. Your download sync speed won't be affected if you opt for Max Premium.

Thanks for the info, jelv. Can you confirm whether the "BT Broadband Premium" option on business.bt.com provides this? The benefits listed in the table seem to relate only to faster support, and they list upload speed at my address as "up to 1mbps" on all packages which doesn't sound right. It looks like I'd only get the Hub 3 on Business, while the Hub 4 on Home has better wifi (dual band).

I see Plusnet offers it separately from their "Pro" add-on, which is needed to avoid their traffic shaping. Adding both ad-ons results in a silly extra price.

I just run a check on an address connected to this exchange which claims upto 1Mbps upload is available!

This was via the BT Business website!

As per my post back to Jelv, I've just run a test order on an address in the Scottish Highlands that is connected to an ADSLMax only exchange

BT Business says they can get upto 1Mbps upload, I looked to see if any extras where required and they where not, thy do however have an offer running "6 months free" and will cost around £33 - £40 per month depending on contract length taken!

I haven't confirmed if BT Residential does or does not do the same for its customers yet but it may be worth having a chat with them online.

In reply to a post by j314:

I see Plusnet offers it separately from their "Pro" add-on, which is needed to avoid their traffic shaping. Adding both ad-ons results in a silly extra price.

DO NOT GO ANYWHERE NEAR THE PLUSNET Pro ADD-ON!

It's criminal that they still have it available for users on unlimited as it only makes any useful difference on accounts they stopped selling over a year ago.

Scratch that, maybe don't go anywhere near Plusnet... your circumstance may be too difficult for them to work with.

It could be that samknows is not up to date. Fact - BT Wholesale ADSL has a maximum upload speed of 832kbps, and that is only using the more expensive option. Standard is 448kbps.

I checked via Zen too, it showed the more expensive prices and not the normal ones so this exchange is certainly an ADSL only exchange and based on the number of premises connected and the locations of premises in regard to the exchange I don't think it would be anywhere near commercially viable for any 21CN upgrades or Fibre.

EDIT: FYI Local SpeedTest for BT showing 0.88 upload!

Edited by mlmclaren (Wed 14-Oct-15 23:28:38)

Which exchange are you on?

What did O2 standard do to give me 1078kbps upload?

It was ADSL2+. Nothing to do with BT Wholesale products or ADSL.

Install their own equipment in the exchange running ADSL2+.

We are talking about an exchange where BT Wholesale is the only provider.

It's strange that I'm connected to TT via UtilityWarehouse using "ADSL2+ Annex A" but only ever get 865kbps as the fastest upload.

I realise that the speed is just above your quoted ADSL speed but what is different between ADSL, ADSL2 and ADSL2+?

The upload speed will be capped in your case either based on the lines capabilities or a setting the provider has imposed.

BT Wholesale choose different ways to run their ADSL network than they do their ADSL2+ network, and the way the ADSL2+ is configured for different LLU operators can mean slight variations in the way upload speeds are delivered.

Similarly, IIRC, the default on Plusnet ADSL2+ is 832kbps. Possibly only when downstream interleaving is in force. They will, or used to, uncap it on request.

ADSL and ADSL2 both use the same frequency ranges, with ADSL2 using a better protocol that can give higher speed. ADSL2+ which is what is sold in the UK rather than ADSL2 has double the downstream frequency range. As ADSL plus the same range again on top.