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Standard User MHC
(legend) Mon 22-Oct-12 10:37:01
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Win7 or Win8


[link to this post]
 
I am about to order a new laptop - I already know which one. The question is:

Shall I order it with Win7 or Win8 ? Has anyone downloaded the Beta versions of Win8 and actually tried it out?


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M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Deadbeat
(knowledge is power) Mon 22-Oct-12 11:06:13
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
I've tried Win8 and IMO, as it stands, it's the new ME or Vista. In other words, if you want newer than 7, wait until 9 is released.
But, why not Win7 with a free upgrade path to Win8?

Out of interest, which lappie have you plumped for and why?

Edited by Deadbeat (Mon 22-Oct-12 11:07:16)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 22-Oct-12 11:11:09
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
I'm just waiting for the full release on Friday to roll it out. It's the future.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlZgcAacIxU


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Edited by BatBoy (Mon 22-Oct-12 11:16:17)


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Standard User MHC
(legend) Mon 22-Oct-12 11:18:56
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Deadbeat] [link to this post]
 
Dell Latitude 6430 - well 98% certain. Tech support is normally good and available worldwide with next business day on site and for 3 to 5 years available. Machines are normally well built and reliable, I have Dell PSUs in several locations so no need to carry one and they work on existing and new machines.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Mon 22-Oct-12 11:31:09
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Why not give it a go yourself beforehand. Download VMWare Player, then on Microsoft.com > Downloads > products > all windows, there is a link there to try Windows 8 preview, the 64 bit is a 3.3 Gb iso, 32 bit is 2.2 Gb, also take a note of the license number on the screen. Create a Virtual Machine from the ISO.
That way you can decide if its for you.
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 22-Oct-12 11:34:31
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
I wouldn't judge too much from a VM. In my experience Windows 8 runs far better on an entry-level laptop than it does in a VM on my much more powerful desktop. For some reason the pre-release versions) seem to struggle on a VM.

Personally, I would go for 8.
Standard User bigell1993
(newbie) Mon 22-Oct-12 11:38:00
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Been running it since Release preview (now on RTM). Go for it, Microsoft isn't going to back down, infact its changing its release cycle so windows 8 will be updated on a 6 ish monthly basis.
No point running an old OS when there is a new one available. For the record it runs faster than 7.
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 22-Oct-12 11:45:05
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
I am about to order a new laptop - I already know which one. The question is:

Shall I order it with Win7 or Win8 ? Has anyone downloaded the Beta versions of Win8 and actually tried it out?


No, don't get windows 8 it is rubbish smile

You have really asked a difficult question. Once you get past the the Metro or Modern UI and get to the desktop then it is not too bad, but it is not straight forward to get to settings or other bits of the OS.

if you stay on the desktop and have all your software icons either on the taskbar or desktop then it is ok.

The metro UI is to be honest awful and the single screen apps are no better, but it depends if you really want to work on a single screen.

I tried out windows 8 for a while and after a week i tried some software to put the start menu back and disable metro, made it a much better Os then.


Best thing as been said is to try the RC version in VM.

Dell? There have got to be better machines.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Mon 22-Oct-12 11:47:26
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
If you buy a laptop Win7 you should get Win8 for a modest fee (less than £20) and you could dual boot it perhaps.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

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Standard User DavidFinbarr
(freechataholic) Mon 22-Oct-12 12:26:38
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
I didn't like Win8 either, seemed for designed for a touchsreen.

I would stick with Win7, still another 7 1/2 years of updates, so no worries there.

A bottle of white, a bottle of red
Perhaps a bottle of rosé instead.
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 22-Oct-12 17:01:21
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
I have been running Windows 8 RTM in upgrade form on my main computer for 2 months now. Simply put, it is better than Windows 7. I have had not a single problem with it that I wasn't having with Windows 7 (i.e., no problems with it).

The only difference one really needs to be concerned about is the change of the start menu - once you look beyond that, if you were to not use any of the new features, the only difference would be the fact that Windows 8 is faster "at the core" than Windows 7, which I am sure you can put up with wink

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User Kiggs
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 22-Oct-12 18:52:48
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Personally, I'd go with Windows 8. I've had it installed since the RTM dropped and apart from the slightly suspect new UI, performance and reliability have been noticeably enhanced. There's some nice little tweaks which include Windows Updates no longer forcing the computer to shutdown in the middle of the day, baked-in antivirus and faster bootup and shutdowns.

Edited by Kiggs (Mon 22-Oct-12 18:52:59)

Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 22-Oct-12 21:28:28
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: DavidFinbarr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by DavidFinbarr:
I didn't like Win8 either, seemed for designed for a touchsreen.

I would stick with Win7, still another 7 1/2 years of updates, so no worries there.


That is true, but then windows XP will not have any updates in the next few months and I know a few people who still uses Xp and got no intention of changing for another couple of years.


i will stay with 7 until I can save enough for a Apple Mac and then decide what I am going to do when I got the money.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 22-Oct-12 21:35:49
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
If you don't like what's happening to Windows you certainly won't like what's happening to OS X.
Standard User Desmond
(sensei) Mon 22-Oct-12 22:46:22
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Windows 8 is a dogs breakfast that the even the dog vomited straight back up. I've tried all the beta iterations and I'll not be polluting any of my PCs with it. How Microsoft can be as consistent in serially getting things so fundamentally wrong really beggars belief. In this instance they have decided that desktop and tablet are the same thing.... WRONG! They really are fundamentally different on a whole load of levels and all Microsoft have done is create a system that users - particularly business users - will avoid like a bad case of herpes. In my experience, likening it to ME or Vista really doesn't begin to do it justice.

Des

The original 32 bit junkie now snorting pure 64. Sky Broadband, Wired, Wireless, VoIP, 1 Mac, 2. Hackintoshes, 1 PC, 2 HTPCs, iPhone, iPad, OS X, Windows 7

Rehab is for quitters
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 23-Oct-12 00:02:04
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Desmond] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Desmond:
Windows 8 is a dogs breakfast that the even the dog vomited straight back up. I've tried all the beta iterations and I'll not be polluting any of my PCs with it. How Microsoft can be as consistent in serially getting things so fundamentally wrong really beggars belief. In this instance they have decided that desktop and tablet are the same thing.... WRONG! They really are fundamentally different on a whole load of levels and all Microsoft have done is create a system that users - particularly business users - will avoid like a bad case of herpes. In my experience, likening it to ME or Vista really doesn't begin to do it justice.

I see - I don't suppose you have any reason why it is as bad as you say it is? Or are your comments based entirely upon the fact the start "menu" has changed? I am particularly interested with business users would avoid it, is it again just because their beloved start menu has been removed?

Nobody forces you to use any part of the "Modern UI" bit of it other than the start screen, the rest you can do on the desktop or in the places you would normally find them.

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 23-Oct-12 00:06:37
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
Can you actually tell us what is so bad about Windows 8 compared to Windows 7?

Probably just the start screen again is it? So instead of lumping a new start screen you would rather move OS to something totally different (and rubbish) instead? Interesting!

I'm sorry Adrian but to put it bluntly you haven't actually given a proper reason as to why Windows 8 is so bad, I know you are passionate about your privacy etc (as am I) but surely on that ground you would praise Microsoft for allowing you to use Windows without a live ID!

Zen 8000 Pro

Edited by Pipexer (Tue 23-Oct-12 00:10:05)

Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 23-Oct-12 07:14:28
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
If you don't like what's happening to Windows you certainly won't like what's happening to OS X.



It looks the same to me as any older version of OS x, still got the same look. i know there are some more integration of Icloud and apps, but you don't have to link to it and you don't have to have a account as far as i know.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 23-Oct-12 07:24:10
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
Can you actually tell us what is so bad about Windows 8 compared to Windows 7?

Probably just the start screen again is it? So instead of lumping a new start screen you would rather move OS to something totally different (and rubbish) instead? Interesting!


OS X is not rubbish, it is a pretty good OS, I use it a lot when I am at a friends place and she swears by it, but then she have a 5 apples so she would.


The start screen have put me off I must admit, it looks like something been designed by fisher price. things that was just a click away on windows 7 is now more than a click away.
when I start a computer I want it to start in the place where I am going to work, I am not going to work on the start screen, i will be working on a desktop.

Even apple is not that stupid they are going to change the whole Os and make it completely different on start up.

I'm sorry Adrian but to put it bluntly you haven't actually given a proper reason as to why Windows 8 is so bad, I know you are passionate about your privacy etc (as am I) but surely on that ground you would praise Microsoft for allowing you to use Windows without a live ID!



Ms did not really have much of a choice but to allow people to use windows without a live ID, can you imagine what would have happened if they did not? anyway, no point in a live Id if the computer is not on the net.


Windows 8 does seems to be fluid and smooth and run faster, I am not denying that, but once you get a load of software on it, then it is no difference.
you either like a Os or you don't, I did not like vista, yet apart from a few problems I liked windows ME, but went back to 98 as ME was too unstable.

Oh yes, I also don't like the ribbon in windows 8.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 23-Oct-12 07:52:03
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
It not what it looks like that matters, Adrian. Apple are control freaks and are moving more and more to lock down your computer so that you can only do what they want you to. Very soon now I can see OS X following the iOS model where you can only install software from the App Store. They are already half-way there.

There are also privacy concerns with Apple, IMO, every bit as bad as Google. Moving from Microsoft to Apple would be out of the frying pan into the fire. A move to open-source software would fit far better with your concerns.
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Tue 23-Oct-12 09:08:57
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
A friend of mine works in a call center that will be supporting win8 from Friday so they have been working with it for weeks at work and everybody has had to have an mandatory upgrade of their home computers to allow them to learn it fast.

He says at work it is great, simple icons for all the tabs and windows he needs, it is nice and simple.

At home he is fuming, there is major problem with the drivers for a huge commercial laser printer he owns which he uses to produce club newsletters and other bulk mailings. The win7 drivers don't seem to work correctly.

He listens to a lot of streamed radio on the internet while he is working, he goes onto the webpage to start the stream, he then goes onto something else and the stream stops until you click back onto the streaming window and it starts again.

Coupled with the fact that most of his software doesn't work with metro, it just drops hiim back to the desktop anyways it is a bit of a mess and he can't wait to drop the whole thing.

The main problem is that win7 was both a great success as well as causing major problems.

Success as it showed that they could still make a decent OS and the problem is that win7 breathed a new lease of life into a lot of PC's that meant their owners didn't really need to upgrade.

Coupled with the fact that the tablet market is booming due to the fact they are just easier to use for a bit of causual browsing and occasional email which an awful lot of PC's were being used for and they paniced.

I cannot see win8 though taking off, Nokia is their mobile partner and a lot of under 30's see that brand as so 90's and MS still wants their $50 per phone which will always outprice the android phones a Google gives their OS away.

Given that MS have already gotten cold feet with win8 with the announcement that win8 will also carry android functionality and you are looking at an OS that doesn't really appeal to most users as win7 is perfectly servicable for PC's and why get it on a phone when you have the mass markets of Android and IOs to choose from.

I wouldn't be surprised if win9 will be here in under 18 months and come in a desktop flavour with the metro gui running in a window when wanted and a full phone flavour.
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 23-Oct-12 16:09:11
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by zyborg47:
when I start a computer I want it to start in the place where I am going to work, I am not going to work on the start screen, i will be working on a desktop.

Actually, in most cases you probably want to open an application, you do not just stare at the desktop to do your work, therefore the start screen is more appropriate.

Example: you want to browse the web, in Windows 8, you click your web browser on the start screen. In Windows 7, you would have to click on Start then launch internet explorer, unless you had pinned it to the taskbar. Either way, the steps are no longer in Windows 8.

The only possible reason you would want to go to the desktop just on it's own is if you had files on the desktop (which is very bad practice anyway), or icons (which is in principle similar to the start screen).

And indeed for power users their steps have too been shortened as they only need to login and then type "mmc" or "devmgmt.msc" for example and then they are there, in Windows 7 once again you would have had to press Windows Key + R or click on the start button before you could type that.

What people are doing is making the mistake of treating the start screen as something alien - it is not, it is actually the gateway to launch both Modern UI and desktop apps.

Zen 8000 Pro

Edited by Pipexer (Tue 23-Oct-12 16:12:11)

Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 23-Oct-12 17:33:06
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
It not what it looks like that matters, Adrian. Apple are control freaks and are moving more and more to lock down your computer so that you can only do what they want you to. Very soon now I can see OS X following the iOS model where you can only install software from the App Store. They are already half-way there.


MS is no better, how long will it before Ms goes that way?

i can't see it happening on Apple or windows for a while, too much software out there.

Can you imagine how long it would take to download something like final cut or office on a slow broadband connection?

There are also privacy concerns with Apple, IMO, every bit as bad as Google. Moving from Microsoft to Apple would be out of the frying pan into the fire. A move to open-source software would fit far better with your concerns.



If i could get the software I want open source, I would go that way believe me.
i have said for a while now that I would love to move over to linux, but the lack of software stops that happening.

that is the other problem with moving to Apple, new software, it is not just buying the computer, but I will have to buy new software.
i must admit, I do like the new final cut, even if my friend don't smile

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 23-Oct-12 17:38:25
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
have you used the start screen version of IE? not only don't it support flash, but it is awful, worse than the desktop version of IE if that is possible.

when I am browsing the net, I got other things working in the back ground, like at the moment my computer is rendering some Hd video as i am typing this and wondering on the net.

i tried that on windows 8 and as soon as I went back tot he start menu, i think my video editor stopped rendering, because when i had a look after 10 mins, the rendering had not moved.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 23-Oct-12 18:25:02
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
Well, how else do you suppose you get software onto the things? They don't come with DVD drives nowadays.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Tue 23-Oct-12 19:12:22
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
Which reminds me, I must go down the shops and buy a floppy with Netscape on it.


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Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 23-Oct-12 19:15:31
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
I'm all for network delivery of software (does anyone buy it any other way nowadays?), but I'm not too keen on only being able to buy it from one source - and that is controlled by the OS and hardware vendor.
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 23-Oct-12 21:25:46
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
Well, how else do you suppose you get software onto the things? They don't come with DVD drives nowadays.


What don't come with DVd drives? laptops still do and desktops still do. it is only silly netbook style machines that don't come with DVDs.

The Imac still comes with a DVD, but there is talk of getting rid of it, which is a bit silly.

i need a DVD writer, well blu-ray in my case, i use blu-ray as a back up system.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 23-Oct-12 21:27:44
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
I'm all for network delivery of software (does anyone buy it any other way nowadays?), but I'm not too keen on only being able to buy it from one source - and that is controlled by the OS and hardware vendor.


I got my last version of Vegas on a disk and if i buy the new version that will come on disk as well. i can get it cheaper on a disk than downloading which is silly I know.

It is like MP3 and CD, i can buy CDs cheaper than the MP3.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 23-Oct-12 21:30:37
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
Apple computers come without DVD drives. Coincidentally, they were dropped on iMacs just a few hours ago.

So don't hold your breath expecting software vendors to sell Mac software on DVD.

If you need DVD and/or BluRay writers an Apple computer may not be the wisest choice. This will only be more true by the time you have saved the money for one.
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 23-Oct-12 21:31:34
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
Well, as I say, an Apple computer may not be the best choice for you.
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 23-Oct-12 21:39:18
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
Actually, in most cases you probably want to open an application, you do not just stare at the desktop to do your work, therefore the start screen is more appropriate.


Example: you want to browse the web, in Windows 8, you click your web browser on the start screen. In Windows 7, you would have to click on Start then launch internet explorer, unless you had pinned it to the taskbar. Either way, the steps are no longer in Windows 8.


Apart from the fact I never use Internet Exploder.
but yes, the main software I use is pinned onto the taskbar, the other stuff is pinned to the start menu.

The only possible reason you would want to go to the desktop just on it's own is if you had files on the desktop (which is very bad practice anyway), or icons (which is in principle similar to the start screen).


i don't have icons on my desktop, I stopped doing that with windows XP, I hate icons on my desktop. i don't see the point, as if I got a full screen program running , like Vegas and I want to say start photoshop, i would need to shrink vegas to get to the icon for photoshop.

If I am using software, why would I want to go back to the windows 8 start screen to start something else?



And indeed for power users their steps have too been shortened as they only need to login and then type "mmc" or "devmgmt.msc" for example and then they are there, in Windows 7 once again you would have had to press Windows Key + R or click on the start button before you could type that.

What people are doing is making the mistake of treating the start screen as something alien - it is not, it is actually the gateway to launch both Modern UI and desktop apps.



It is alien and to be honest just a way for Ms to make more money by trying to get people to buy useless apps and people will, you only have to look at the amount of money spent on useless apps for mobile phones.

I got no reason to buy windows 8, i certainly am not going to buy a computer with windows 8 on, because if i don't go for a MAC then i will just update this computer and stick my windows 7 on again. My laptop does what it does, i know it is falling apart, but for the amount of time I use it I am not going to replace it.

i am certainly not going to buy a tablet, i don't see the point in them.

So i will either stay as I am for a few more years or go MAC, either way MS is not going to make any more money from me.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User Deadbeat
(knowledge is power) Tue 23-Oct-12 22:30:13
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
.... In Windows 7, you would have to click on Start then launch internet explorer, unless you had pinned it to the taskbar.....

In Windows7, I use the Quicklaunch bar from which I can launch any number of programs with a single click whilst leaving other applications still open and accessible with another single click.
What could be simpler?
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Tue 23-Oct-12 23:20:32
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Deadbeat] [link to this post]
 
A 2 finger right slide.


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Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 23-Oct-12 23:47:18
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
Apple computers come without DVD drives. Coincidentally, they were dropped on iMacs just a few hours ago.


I think that is a mistake, certainly since Apple Macs are used for video editing, how on earth are you suppose to burn a DVd with no optical drive?


So don't hold your breath expecting software vendors to sell Mac software on DVD.

If you need DVD and/or BluRay writers an Apple computer may not be the wisest choice. This will only be more true by the time you have saved the money for one.


i could get a Apple Mac now if I really wanted to, but I thought I would wait until next year and save a bit more. i did not know Apple have got a new Imac, I just had a loo, to be honest I don't like it that much, too thin. All this idea of making thins thinner worry me about heat build up. Where are the heat sinks, where do the heat go?


TBH, i don't really know what to do, if i went for a MAc i would have to get software again and that is not cheap and I would have to learn new software.
i been using Vegas for a couple of years or so now, so I pretty will know my way around the basic part of it.

The other problem with a MAC is expandability or the lack of it and if anything goes wrong then you are stumped, at least with my desktop, if say the CPU went belly up it is a 10 minute job to replace it.


Maybe i just want something different, or maybe I am rebelling against windows smile
Maybe i should think about a Apple Mini, but then I still got to get a external Blu-ray

All this you can do it on the cloud rubbish is getting too much, you can't do everything on the cloud and what happens when your broadband speed is slow?
i got a 10Mb/s connection and that is only because I pay extra for it, if I did not pay I would have a five megabit. and even so upload is only 1.5, so a HD video would take a long time to upload.


i will wait until next year and decide what to do then, but I know one thing, windows 8 will not be in those plans.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 24-Oct-12 04:39:45
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
I am about to order a new laptop - I already know which one. The question is:

Shall I order it with Win7 or Win8 ? Has anyone downloaded the Beta versions of Win8 and actually tried it out?


I suspect if it comes with win7 you will get a win8 upgrade deal tagged on, this is what usually happens with OEM right before a new windows launch. So get windows 7, plus I think windows 7 is the better OS anyway, especially for laptops, metro is bad enough with a mouse, its absolutely a disaster with a touchpad.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 24-Oct-12 04:48:52
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Deadbeat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Deadbeat:
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
.... In Windows 7, you would have to click on Start then launch internet explorer, unless you had pinned it to the taskbar.....

In Windows7, I use the Quicklaunch bar from which I can launch any number of programs with a single click whilst leaving other applications still open and accessible with another single click.
What could be simpler?


The microsoft gui team has essentially "lost it" after vista.

Every design change post vista seems to be a change for the sake of it and for "the thrill". Quick launch is perfect, its always visible and a one click run for commonly used apps. Luckily on windows 7 it can be restored they didnt completely remove it. Also the basis behind I think of removing the start menu is apparently the modern way to launch apps is to type in the name in a search box and then run it from a list that shows up, not all of us work that way I never search very rarely unless I am looking for specific files and then I do that using the dir command in a command prompt. The reason I dont search is I know where my apps are, and I can launch apps without touching the keyboard.

If windows 8 left the start menu in place as well as other existing desktop features, brought back the feature of remembering windows position (lost in win7) and had metro as optional then I would have upgraded.

Also the problem is as well microsoft are in a panic, they are after mobile market share, if windows 8 fails, expect another new OS in 2 years with another radical GUI change so it could be a constant having to relearn how to work efficiently every couple years because windows may become a unstable platform, and business's dont like that.
Standard User Deadbeat
(knowledge is power) Wed 24-Oct-12 07:41:42
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
I often find myself using two fingers where Win8 is concerned.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Wed 24-Oct-12 10:26:41
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
Also the basis behind I think of removing the start menu is apparently the modern way to launch apps is to type in the name in a search box and then run it from a list that shows up
ROFL!

It's all going backwards. We went from command lines to graphical UIs and icons to multiple overlapping windows. Now we're losing the overlapping windows and reverting to command lines.

Mind you we've also gone from central computing and dumb terminals to decentralised computing and powerful PCs and are now heading back to centralised computing and dumb terminals.

It's like I've always said: The IT industry goes in circles. Each iteration is better than the previous time around though I suppose.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Wed 24-Oct-12 10:30:10
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
What people are doing is making the mistake of treating the start screen as something alien - it is not, it is actually the gateway to launch both Modern UI and desktop apps.
But it feels like a kludge. Also the new UI doesn't support multiple overlapping windows. It appears to be designed for users who can't multi-task. My job often requires me to have several applications running and visible at the same time. Yes you can do that with the traditional desktop but it feels like an after thought. A bit like the command prompt feels like - you can imagine Windows cringing and sighing every time you turn your back on 'Metro'.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Wed 24-Oct-12 10:32:37
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by zyborg47:
have you used the start screen version of IE? not only don't it support flash, but it is awful, worse than the desktop version of IE if that is possible.

when I am browsing the net, I got other things working in the back ground, like at the moment my computer is rendering some Hd video as i am typing this and wondering on the net.

i tried that on windows 8 and as soon as I went back tot he start menu, i think my video editor stopped rendering, because when i had a look after 10 mins, the rendering had not moved.
Me too. At work I typically have two or even three instances of Visual Studio, a source control system, MS Exchange, some folder windows, Three or four Notepad instances and a couple of Remote Desktop windows. Not just because I can't be bothered to close them but because I'm monitoring them. Having to jump from full screen app to full screen app would be a serious productivity impediment.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 24-Oct-12 10:38:28
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Um - you pin the applications that you use frequently to the Start Page (in the same way that you pin them to the task bar or dock in other OSs).

As for just typing a program name rather than having to search through a menu or open a command prompt, do a directory listing, change to the directory, run the program - it's a no-brainer to me. That's one of the nice things about the Launchpad in OS X; it's so much quicker than peeing about with menus, command prompts, or file managers.
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 24-Oct-12 10:42:21
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
Once you get used to full-screen applications they are just as easy to use as windowed ones. (A bit easier in fact as you have more screen real estate and don't have to worry about overlapping windows hiding things.) This is another of the big improvements that has been made in OS X recently. It is so much easier to flip between full-screen applications that messing with windows.

It's quite refreshing to see that some of the excesses of the WIMP paradigm are now being reigned in. The mouse is not always king.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Wed 24-Oct-12 13:27:51
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
Once you get used to full-screen applications they are just as easy to use as windowed ones. (A bit easier in fact as you have more screen real estate and don't have to worry about overlapping windows hiding things.) This is another of the big improvements that has been made in OS X recently. It is so much easier to flip between full-screen applications that messing with windows.
But you can do that with the current Windows GUI if you want - just double click the title bar.

I guess you're one of those who can't multi-task. That's fine for you but I regularly have two or three applications running that I am monitoring. Right now I have Chrome open to compose this reply, I have Notepad open with some notes, I have Visual Studio building something and I'm glancing at a remote desktop to one of our server apps so that I know when it's finished the re-indexing I kicked off. When I'm debugging with VS I certainly don't want the annoyance of the screen flipping back and forth between applications. I also often want to look at the program output while looking at the source or debugger information. The last time I had to flip and back and forth between IDE and application was in the early 90s when I used DOS.

You might only be able to do one thing at once but some of us can do many things at once (or at least do one thing and monitor several others). I fail to see any justification in depriving us of that ability given that nothing was stopping you running applications full screen in the first place.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.

Edited by Andrue (Wed 24-Oct-12 13:29:51)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 24-Oct-12 14:06:42
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
It seems so simple to me, metro apps run full screen and desktop apps run in windows.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Wed 24-Oct-12 14:41:07
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
It seems so simple to me, metro apps run full screen and desktop apps run in windows.
Yup. In which case I'd like an option never to see Metro. I believe there are a couple of solutions out there though.

Unfortunately long term it's a functionality split in Windows that MS are going to try and get rid off. Perhaps they'll split it into two editions - Windows Metro and Windows Technical? Either way it's not good to know that my way of interacting with Windows is now seen as the poor stepchild frown

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 24-Oct-12 14:57:03
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
There are many many way for you to remain in the past, but Win 8 represents a shift towards unification of the OS over multiple platforms. And Metro represents the future.

In the future, the inferface will be touch rather than mouse, apps will run full screen and navigation will be achieved by gestures. You will be able to move the current session seamlessly between devices.

As a developer you will have access to whatever windows lie behind the scenes, but how many users have ever written any new software? Users access will be limited to the start screen, Metro.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 24-Oct-12 16:07:14
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
I guess you're one of those who can't multi-task.
I guess you're wrong.

I guess you're one of those who can't get used to something new. wink
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 24-Oct-12 18:40:35
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
In reply to a post by zyborg47:
have you used the start screen version of IE? not only don't it support flash, but it is awful, worse than the desktop version of IE if that is possible.

when I am browsing the net, I got other things working in the back ground, like at the moment my computer is rendering some Hd video as i am typing this and wondering on the net.

i tried that on windows 8 and as soon as I went back tot he start menu, i think my video editor stopped rendering, because when i had a look after 10 mins, the rendering had not moved.
Me too. At work I typically have two or even three instances of Visual Studio, a source control system, MS Exchange, some folder windows, Three or four Notepad instances and a couple of Remote Desktop windows. Not just because I can't be bothered to close them but because I'm monitoring them. Having to jump from full screen app to full screen app would be a serious productivity impediment.


I am glad i am not the only one.

Take a example of a mate of mine, who runs a midi sequencer at the same time as other audio software and then link them

I know we are not your average Joe, it seems like people just want to use computers to look at facebook and that is it.

i think windows 8 is aimed at School kids.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 24-Oct-12 18:46:19
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
There are many many way for you to remain in the past, but Win 8 represents a shift towards unification of the OS over multiple platforms. And Metro represents the future.


Fine if you are going to have windows on every single device. I got no intention of buying a windows phone and i certainly got no intention of buying a tablet full stop never mind a window based one.

Give people the choice to use metro or not, it is not hard.

In the future, the inferface will be touch rather than mouse, apps will run full screen and navigation will be achieved by gestures. You will be able to move the current session seamlessly between devices.



For people who spend all day on facebook, fine, but some of us use our computers for a little bit more.
i can imagine a touch typist using a a touch screen. I am not that fond on using my mobile to do text.

touch screens have their place, but on a fully fledge computer?, a waste of time.

As a developer you will have access to whatever windows lie behind the scenes, but how many users have ever written any new software? Users access will be limited to the start screen, Metro.



I think I will give up computers and the internet, it is as if it is being dumb down.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 24-Oct-12 18:47:37
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
I guess you're one of those who can't multi-task.
I guess you're wrong.

I guess you're one of those who can't get used to something new. wink


Andrue is 100% correct, it seems like people can't do more than one thing, what the hell is going on?

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 24-Oct-12 19:04:43
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
You obviously don't use a computer in your workplace 8 hours every day. The wimp environment has been extremely damaging to productivity, it's not something to be applauded.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 24-Oct-12 19:14:38
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
Your basic error is to assume that you can't do more than one thing at a time with full-screen applications. You can (that's one of the lessons that Apple has learnt), and you can do it much more efficiently than you can with windows. It does take a little practice to get into the swing of things, and you have to open your mind to new concepts, but it works just fine. People don't realize just how much the WIMP paradigm damages productivity.
Standard User MrTAToad2
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 24-Oct-12 19:52:04
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Metro would only be the future for handheld devices - I don't see any reason for it to be inflicted on PC users - there should be separate versions for those with touch screens and those without, giving the user a choice.

Metro seems to be designed to slow down multi-tasking which is a shame.

Follow me on Twitter. Be*
My Blog
12 Things...
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 24-Oct-12 19:54:45
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: MrTAToad2] [link to this post]
 
You don't need a mouse on a PC if you have a touch screen, or a keyboard for that matter. Metro is the future for touch screen devices.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User MrTAToad2
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 24-Oct-12 21:31:29
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
And only for touch screen devices.

Follow me on Twitter. Be*
My Blog
12 Things...
Standard User Desmond
(sensei) Wed 24-Oct-12 21:40:11
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Correction: Metro is the future for Microsoft OS software based touch screen and (perversely) non touch screen devices. It's not lost on me that devices using the metro interface have not been flying off the shelves despite being around for 12 months now. It seems that actual consumers have not warmed to them and prefer iOS and Android in numbers so huge they make products with Metro OS (for want of a description) look about as popular as Myra Hindley at a kids party.

Des

The original 32 bit junkie now snorting pure 64. Sky Broadband, Wired, Wireless, VoIP, 1 Mac, 2. Hackintoshes, 1 PC, 2 HTPCs, iPhone, iPad, OS X, Windows 7

Rehab is for quitters
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 24-Oct-12 21:47:01
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Desmond] [link to this post]
 
Microsoft is not forcing desktop users to use Metro, that is what some are failing to understand.

If you don't want to use Metro apps, then you don't have to (unless you are running Windows RT of course, but then what do you expect?), if you consider the new start screen a metro app, well then tough you're stuck with that one.

Bar that, you never have to use a metro app to do anything in Windows 8 if you don't have to, everything else is where it used to be....

Metro is there at the moment primarily for touch devices, yes, Microsoft are simply doing you a favour as a desktop user and allowing you to use them if you want, by making it part of the same ecosystem. The same cannot be said of Apple.

Zen 8000 Pro

Edited by Pipexer (Wed 24-Oct-12 21:47:42)

Standard User Desmond
(sensei) Wed 24-Oct-12 22:09:40
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
I didn't mention Metro apps. I referred to the interface as a whole and as far as I can find there is no avoiding it and other interface offences most foul (like hidden menus of the charm variety) in Windows 8 - whoever turned restart/sleep/shutdown into an easter egg hunt I'd love to know so they could be sent for re-education. There is, in fact, nothing wrong with Metro as a touch screen interface as such, but as I have pointed out it isn't new and consumers have not rushed to buy into it as a touch screen interface never mind the default interface to replace the Start menu. History may prove me wrong, but I wonder whether Microsoft will not be about to find out that Vista was actually recorded as one of their better moments. laugh

Des

The original 32 bit junkie now snorting pure 64. Sky Broadband, Wired, Wireless, VoIP, 1 Mac, 2. Hackintoshes, 1 PC, 2 HTPCs, iPhone, iPad, OS X, Windows 7

Rehab is for quitters
Standard User MadMan
(knowledge is power) Wed 24-Oct-12 22:45:14
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Desmond] [link to this post]
 
Well, I won't be buying Win8, no real start menu, no Aero.

I never had a problems with Vista, & would have it over Win8 anyday.

Happy & the moment, with all 4 64bit desktops & 1 64bit laptop all on Win7.

As the 4 Win7 DVDs are all 32bit/64bit retail versions, they'll go on all future rebuilds.

plusnet Extra
Using a Draytek Vigor 2850Vn
Standard User Desmond
(sensei) Wed 24-Oct-12 23:23:10
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: MadMan] [link to this post]
 
Why love the start menu or Aero? There is nothing wrong with disposing of them for something demonstrably better.

There is, however, something wrong with getting rid of them for something worse... or worse still for 2, 3 or more things that are all worse.

If anyone has a Metro interface that looks in the slightest like Microsoft's graphically rich promotional stuff I have yet to see it. To me it only ever looks and behaves like a ridiculous waste of screen acreage and text that requires I scroll endlessly right to find what I want. In my experience a 1080 screen in Metro has about as many options on it as an iPhone 4's 3.5" screen. This is, of course, completely absurd.

We must, incidentally, stop calling it 'Metro' because Microsoft ballsed up even naming it and now say it is and always was 'modern UI' - yeah right.

Des

The original 32 bit junkie now snorting pure 64. Sky Broadband, Wired, Wireless, VoIP, 1 Mac, 2. Hackintoshes, 1 PC, 2 HTPCs, iPhone, iPad, OS X, Windows 7

Rehab is for quitters
Standard User benbird7
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 24-Oct-12 23:29:17
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Desmond] [link to this post]
 
Completely agree, tried it for a few days in advance of a new PC build, no thanks!

The Start menu can be brought back (I like it) but using other tweaks StartMenu8, Pokki for Windows 8, Classic Shell, Start8 from StarDock.

I just want the operating system installed without adding stuff to it the way I want it without addons, which will no doubt come with updates!

Regards,


Ben

Edited by benbird7 (Wed 24-Oct-12 23:37:58)

Standard User benbird7
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 24-Oct-12 23:50:28
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
I know a landscape architect who thought it'd be nice to have a touch screen PC. He hated it, greasy finger prints all over it, not to mention the annoyance of moving your hand around a large monitor.

You've said it, Metro is the future for touchscreen devices. But not PC's with a keyboard and mouse, which I like.

After the previous Nokia devices owned, and the fact I've converted to android for my mobile platform and Samsung for my hardware. Any Nokia coupled with windows is not welcome in my pocket.

Ben
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 24-Oct-12 23:59:27
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Desmond] [link to this post]
 
Moving your mouse into one of the RHS corners, selecting power, and then shut down, is no bigger challenge than pressing Start > Shut Down!

That is an exceptionally poor reason as to why the OS is rubbish, when you buy a new car do you complain that the buttons are not in exactly the same place as they was before?

If it was mindless moving of things about fair enough - but in this instance I can forgive them for the move.

Oh, btw I was using OSX Lion the other day and the shutdown button wasn't in plain sight on that either, and that dock is a shocking waste of screen space - rubbish OS!

Vista was not as bad as people make out - I'm not going to deny some things were mistakes but a lot of performance issues were down to 3rd party apps being installed on it.

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User MadMan
(knowledge is power) Thu 25-Oct-12 01:58:17
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Desmond] [link to this post]
 
If, & that's a big IF, they had something better than the start menu, then maybe I'd give it a go.
Aero, some love it, some hate it. I love it & all my machine run it. As I'm not a gamer, I can take the slight proformance hit you get with Aero.
To me, Metro is something the cat brought in, & yes, I did try it, but only on a spare 32bit computer.
Not that I like or intend to get a touch screen tablet, (I've seen the messy finger marks on my son's screen). It wouldn't run Metro (to hell with their new name), it would be running Android & most likely be a Samsung, & the same with a smartphone.

plusnet Extra
Using a Draytek Vigor 2850Vn
Standard User Danh_Gbwe
(newbie) Thu 25-Oct-12 04:09:53
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by zyborg47:
In reply to a post by DavidFinbarr:
I didn't like Win8 either, seemed for designed for a touchsreen.

I would stick with Win7, still another 7 1/2 years of updates, so no worries there.


That is true, but then windows XP will not have any updates in the next few months and I know a few people who still uses Xp and got no intention of changing for another couple of years.


i will stay with 7 until I can save enough for a Apple Mac and then decide what I am going to do when I got the money.


Next few months? support was until 2014...
Standard User Desmond
(sensei) Thu 25-Oct-12 07:21:25
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
The fact that you are now reduced to criticising OS X Lion for having a shut down menu item in the same place since OS X was first released (and still is in Mountain Lion) or havng an easily hideable dock taking up screen space when the thread is about comparing Windows 7 to 8 goes to show that you have nothing poisitive to say about WIndows 8 at all.

As I have said; time will tell. Personally, I expect Mr Balmer to be speding more time with his family before Easter. laugh

Des

The original 32 bit junkie now snorting pure 64. Sky Broadband, Wired, Wireless, VoIP, 1 Mac, 2. Hackintoshes, 1 PC, 2 HTPCs, iPhone, iPad, OS X, Windows 7

Rehab is for quitters

Edited by Desmond (Thu 25-Oct-12 07:44:06)

Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Thu 25-Oct-12 12:54:21
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
I am about to order a new laptop - I already know which one. The question is:

Shall I order it with Win7 or Win8 ? Has anyone downloaded the Beta versions of Win8 and actually tried it out?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/10/25/reg_kb_survi...

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Thu 25-Oct-12 12:57:02
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by zyborg47:
i think windows 8 is aimed at School kids.
Get 'em while they're young laugh

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Thu 25-Oct-12 13:00:40
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
Your basic error is to assume that you can't do more than one thing at a time with full-screen applications. You can (that's one of the lessons that Apple has learnt), and you can do it much more efficiently than you can with windows. It does take a little practice to get into the swing of things, and you have to open your mind to new concepts, but it works just fine. People don't realize just how much the WIMP paradigm damages productivity.
How does being able to look at a functional specification while stepping through source code, watching the client application 'perform' and noting server responses damage productivity? I can do all that just by pressing [F10] or [F11] - my dual monitor setup lets me keep an eye on all those things at the same time.

My objection isn't with your idea that full screen is the best way to go. It has nothing to do with not being able to adapt to 'something new'. This isn't new. I can work full screen right now if I want. I often do when I have a lengthy session with a remote computer. What I'm objecting to is having functionality that I need removed from the OS. And, yes, I do struggle when someone takes functionality away from me for no good reason.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.

Edited by Andrue (Thu 25-Oct-12 13:02:11)

Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 25-Oct-12 13:31:16
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Desmond] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Desmond:
The fact that you are now reduced to criticising OS X Lion for having a shut down menu item in the same place since OS X was first released (and still is in Mountain Lion) or havng an easily hideable dock taking up screen space when the thread is about comparing Windows 7 to 8 goes to show that you have nothing poisitive to say about WIndows 8 at all.

As I have said; time will tell. Personally, I expect Mr Balmer to be speding more time with his family before Easter. laugh

No, you missed my sarcasm/point entirely. The shutdown button is different in Mac OS than it is to Windows, it is not in the usual place, therefore it is rubbish. You are applying the same mentality to the fact the shutdown button is in a different place in on Windows version compared to another.

You cannot rubbish something just because it has moved place or changed - that was my point.

Zen 8000 Pro
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Thu 25-Oct-12 13:41:45
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
Moving your mouse into one of the RHS corners, selecting power, and then shut down, is no bigger challenge than pressing Start > Shut Down!

If that is too much agro, then why not create a desktop shortcut for Shutdown, Restart and Logoff and pin it to the Task Bar?
Standard User pmb00cs
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 25-Oct-12 13:43:09
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
Ever supported end users through a software migration?


Changes to the location of commands do cause disruption, and a major headache for those people that have to support the end users.

Windows is used on many corporate systems, and these changes, as trivial as they may be to you, or I, or Desmond, will cause major problems for the support departments of any company that chooses too (or is forced too) upgrade to windows 8. So yes the fact that the shutdown command has been moved arbitrarily is a perfectly valid criticism. People are creatures of habit and routine, and arbitrarily breaking someone's routine will upset them. You can mock that windows 8 is easy enough to use, so complainers must be simple, but it is a major, and jarring, change that requires re-learning the interface practically from scratch, for little, if any, benefit, and zero perceived benefit. Just because you can use it, does not change any of this, or make the criticism of these changes any less valid.

happily chugging along on plusnet and Virginmedia (yes I am greedy)
My web server
Standard User Malwaremike
(member) Thu 25-Oct-12 15:42:51
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: pmb00cs] [link to this post]
 
As a non-techie I would support this view. I am impressed by the erudition shown on this forum, where I have been grateful for the help always gladly given. I can understand that certain changes may have considerable technical significance and interest to the experts but this is not relevant to simple folk like me -- or rather it should not be.

Too often I have the impression that changes are made for the sake of making changes, Firefox being my favourite example. Why can't they leave a perfectly good product alone? Many if not most users take time to become familiar with new programmes. If they must make tech upgrades, then at least retain the interface which most of us know.
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 25-Oct-12 16:04:33
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Malwaremike] [link to this post]
 
If they must make tech upgrades, then at least retain the interface which most of us know.
A tempting option, but would it really be for the best?

When I started with computers the height of interface sophistication was Wordstar using <ctrl>-key combinations to achieve commands. That interface changed, and it caused my users a bit of trouble to start with when they had to use windows and mice, but they very soon got used to it. I've had a lot of experience training users to use new interfaces and it's really not that difficult - most people have more intelligence than they are sometimes credited with.

Stagnation is all very well but that way we get no progress. The designers don't always get it right, but it's worth trying new paradigms rather than just sticking to what we currently know.
Standard User benbird7
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 25-Oct-12 16:05:34
Print Post

Windows 8 software launch tonight Microsofts biggest gamble.


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
'The result is something that is part modern-day tablet, part old-fashioned corporate Windows, and I'm not sure it truly succeeds at either,' said Jason Jenkins of CNET UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-22229...

Ben

Edited by benbird7 (Thu 25-Oct-12 16:07:02)

Standard User Deadbeat
(knowledge is power) Thu 25-Oct-12 16:15:00
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Malwaremike] [link to this post]
 
Erudition? Haven't a clue what that means. wink
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 25-Oct-12 16:50:06
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: pmb00cs] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by pmb00cs:
Ever supported end users through a software migration?

Unfortunately yes, and the common theme is not that people are not very IT-savvy, it is just that they are generally stupid and don't read or apply logic to anything.
In reply to a post by pmb00cs:
Changes to the location of commands do cause disruption, and a major headache for those people that have to support the end users.

You'd only need an A4 sheet of paper showing them where the new shutdown and log off buttons are for Windows 8, if they can't cope with that minor change then they probably aren't very good at the other jobs they are doing on the computer either.

If people seriously can't cope with rolling the mouse into the corner, upwards to settings, then the power button, just tell them to press ctrl+alt+del and select power instead. <- I summed that up within a sentence, it needs no more explanation. If users cant follow this then god help them trying to do anything else on the computer, and god help the business they work for.

Not rocket science.

It proves a point, users will moan about anything, for the past 15 years we have had the sarcastic "why do you have to press start to shut down" comments, and then when they change that people moan its moved!

I should state again, I have been using Windows 8 on my main desktop for 2 months now and I do not have a single criticism against it that I didn't have with Windows 7. All this nonsense being printed in the media about how its a gamble and full of bugs really is nothing but rubbish - the OS is perfectly fine.

Zen 8000 Pro

Edited by Pipexer (Thu 25-Oct-12 16:53:15)

Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 25-Oct-12 16:57:09
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: pmb00cs] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by pmb00cs:
Windows is used on many corporate systems, and these changes, as trivial as they may be to you, or I, or Desmond, will cause major problems for the support departments of any company that chooses too (or is forced too) upgrade to windows 8. So yes the fact that the shutdown command has been moved arbitrarily is a perfectly valid criticism. People are creatures of habit and routine, and arbitrarily breaking someone's routine will upset them. You can mock that windows 8 is easy enough to use, so complainers must be simple, but it is a major, and jarring, change that requires re-learning the interface practically from scratch, for little, if any, benefit, and zero perceived benefit. Just because you can use it, does not change any of this, or make the criticism of these changes any less valid.

How do you need to re-learn the interface from scratch? That is total nonsense!

You need to re-learn the start menu, and you need to learn to use the charms, takes about 1 hour to fully master it or a week or so of learning it as you go along, this is not a big price to pay to try something new.

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 25-Oct-12 20:32:08
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
You obviously don't use a computer in your workplace 8 hours every day. The wimp environment has been extremely damaging to productivity, it's not something to be applauded.



I use the computer in my workplace as little as possible, A couple of hours a week if that in total.

the software is awful, but that is a different thing.
i can't see how the wimp system have been extremely damaging to productivity, If we did not have the wimp system then the software at work would be more of a pain to use.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 25-Oct-12 20:36:40
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
Your basic error is to assume that you can't do more than one thing at a time with full-screen applications. You can (that's one of the lessons that Apple has learnt), and you can do it much more efficiently than you can with windows. It does take a little practice to get into the swing of things, and you have to open your mind to new concepts, but it works just fine. People don't realize just how much the WIMP paradigm damages productivity.


Are you you sure you are not BatBoy?


The problem with full screen apps is that you have to keep swapping between screens, a pain in the neck if I got say Vegas and sound forge open, in the desktop mode I can put them side by side. I must admit I do need another monitor, that would make things easier.


Still, makes no difference to me as I doubt none of the software i use will be full screen and made for metro or what ever Ms wants to call it.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Thu 25-Oct-12 20:38:00
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
What is the software that you use at work?


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Thu 25-Oct-12 20:39:17
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by zyborg47:
Are you you sure you are not BatBoy?
Are you sure you're not Adslmax?


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 25-Oct-12 20:39:59
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
Microsoft is not forcing desktop users to use Metro, that is what some are failing to understand.

If you don't want to use Metro apps, then you don't have to (unless you are running Windows RT of course, but then what do you expect?), if you consider the new start screen a metro app, well then tough you're stuck with that one.

Bar that, you never have to use a metro app to do anything in Windows 8 if you don't have to, everything else is where it used to be....

Metro is there at the moment primarily for touch devices, yes, Microsoft are simply doing you a favour as a desktop user and allowing you to use them if you want, by making it part of the same ecosystem. The same cannot be said of Apple.



you can use other software on a Apple Mac, you not just forced to use Apple apps. anyway if you think Apple is doing that, then how long will it be before Ms does the same thing?

MS may not be forcing people to use metro apps, but they are forcing people to the metro screen, give people the choice if they want to boot to metro or desktop, it is such a easy thing to do.

they must have thought about it at some point since they left the start menu in windows 8 for a while.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 25-Oct-12 20:40:26
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
Applications don't have to be full screen; some are, some aren't. But you are quite right; multiple monitors is a far better solution than overlapping windows.
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 25-Oct-12 20:43:17
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Danh_Gbwe] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Danh_Gbwe:
Next few months? support was until 2014...


2014? that surprised me, i presume that is extended support, just security updates only.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 25-Oct-12 21:17:26
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
The ignition (start/stop) is usually in the same place and the indicator stalk is always on the same side!

Was Eclipse Home Option 1 & VM 2Mb
Now O2 standard
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 25-Oct-12 21:20:33
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
Wrong on both counts I'm afraid.
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 25-Oct-12 21:22:07
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
That's not quite true, some cars have keyless start, card-based start, saab had the ignition in-between the seats. Some vehicles have the indicator on the RHS of the steering wheel, some even have the directions reversed of which goes left and which goes right.

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 25-Oct-12 21:26:43
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
I have an S-Max with no ignition and Saab have gone boobies up so don't count hence the "USUALLY".

I did think all indicator stalks were on the same side. OMG I made a mistake!

Was Eclipse Home Option 1 & VM 2Mb
Now O2 standard
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 25-Oct-12 21:26:47
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
Yeah; my last car had the indicator stalk on the right the current one on the left. It took me all of 10 seconds to get used to the change. (Maybe that explains why I have no problem with Windows 8.) The conversion from British motorbikes to Jap ones was more of a challenge, but I managed not to ruin the gearbox.

Man is an adaptable creature.
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 25-Oct-12 21:45:56
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by broadband66:
I made a mistake!

Yes I was being pedantic - but if you are going to resort to analogies at least get them right.

So given that we have established some vehicles DO have the ignition key and indicator stalk in different places by the same analogy you are now going to call the car rubbish for moving it around.

Regarding the indicator stalk I may agree with you because the majority of vehicles are the same and there has been an unofficial standard formed out of it, in addition, using the indicator is a frequent task and by swapping it around you would struggle to see any potential benefit.

I'm not going to call a car rubbish for moving the ignition key to a different place though, I can DEAL with that.

But the start button where it is now accommodates for tablet users and is only a slight change for desktop users - it is quite simply not a huge deal, it is used probably <1 times per computing session on average, if that.

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User DavidFinbarr
(freechataholic) Thu 25-Oct-12 21:54:18
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by zyborg47:
In reply to a post by Danh_Gbwe:
Next few months? support was until 2014...


2014? that surprised me, i presume that is extended support, just security updates only.


Yes.
Mainstream support ended 3 1/2 years ago.

A bottle of white, a bottle of red
Perhaps a bottle of rosé instead.
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 25-Oct-12 21:57:49
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
I think the point some people are making is WHY move something for the sake of it. Yes, users will get used to new positions but why should they?

I've stuck with IE8 because IE9 moved the position of the "favourites". From top left to top right. Unless I've missed something obvious why was the position altered?

Was Eclipse Home Option 1 & VM 2Mb
Now O2 standard
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 25-Oct-12 22:21:13
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
It's a compromise, it accommodates touch devices.

I agree that I am not a fan of removal of toolbars from certain things but IE9 is such an improvement over IE8 in many aspects, it frees up screen space for content. As far as I'm aware the favourites button had to be moved as the row of screen space it used to be in has been reclaimed and so the fav icon needed to go on the same part of screenspace as the address bar, hence being on the right.

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User Deadbeat
(knowledge is power) Thu 25-Oct-12 23:29:34
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: pmb00cs] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by pmb00cs:
...... Windows is used on many corporate systems.....

Most of the companies that I supported are still running XP. The disaster that was Vista has scared them off upgrading to Seven. I've asked around today and not one of them will be upgrading to Eight unless dragged there kicking and screaming.

I suspect that this stance applies to the majority of SME's at least and if that is the case, it doesn't look good for Microsoft. They seem to have developed a habit of making a dog's breakfast of every other release.
Moderator billford
(moderator) Thu 25-Oct-12 23:37:05
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Deadbeat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Deadbeat:
They seem to have developed a habit of making a dog's breakfast of every other release.
That's nothing new- back in the days of DOS it was usually said that the even-numbered versions were more trouble than they were worth crazy

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQM
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Deadbeat
(knowledge is power) Thu 25-Oct-12 23:39:39
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
Except 6.22. wink
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 25-Oct-12 23:42:35
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Deadbeat] [link to this post]
 
I disagree with your reasoning for why companies have not upgraded from Windows XP.

It is more likely due to the fact they are running legacy software which will not work with an OS later than Windows XP, I could name a few government departments who fall into this category.

http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240147889/HMRC-s...

If they had employed decent developers who made sustainable and upgradable applications then they wouldn't have run into this problem.

Unfortunately lessons aren't getting learnt.

The upgrade from XP to Windows Vista, 7, or 8 is more or less the same as far as most enterprises are concerned - i.e., very difficult. If they are on Vista or 7 then all the legwork is pretty much (or should be) done and the upgrade from a back end perspective should be a piece of cake compared to coming from XP.

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User Deadbeat
(knowledge is power) Fri 26-Oct-12 00:13:38
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
None of the companies that I have asked, and there's quite a few, run any software that won't run under Vista, 7 or 8. Some tried Vista and reverted back to XP whilst the rest heard about the mess that it was and simply shied away.
I tried pushing a few into into 7 before I finished up but it's outward likeness to Vista, the fear of a meltdown and the perceived necessity to upgrade hardware meant that I was fighting a losing battle except for a few laptops here and there.

I asked about touchscreens as well and most wouldn't entertain them.

Edited by Deadbeat (Fri 26-Oct-12 00:14:49)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Fri 26-Oct-12 00:31:32
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Deadbeat] [link to this post]
 
But these aren't well known companies, are they.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User Deadbeat
(knowledge is power) Fri 26-Oct-12 01:56:36
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
No...... They are the backbone of British industry and their ilk probably far outnumbers "well known" companies in terms of employees.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Fri 26-Oct-12 02:13:45
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Deadbeat] [link to this post]
 
And they don't have Enterprise Agreements with Microsoft, do they.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Fri 26-Oct-12 08:04:59
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Deadbeat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Deadbeat:
Except 6.22. wink
Yeah but v4 makes his point nicely smile

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Moderator billford
(moderator) Fri 26-Oct-12 08:54:33
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Deadbeat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Deadbeat:
Except 6.22. wink
True, but the first 4 (retail) versions of v6 were nothing to write home about, so I think the general point still stands.

Bill
[email protected] __________________Planes and Boats and ... __________________BQM
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband moderator but it does not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Deadbeat
(knowledge is power) Fri 26-Oct-12 09:11:20
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
After several stays in hospital recently and many follow-up visits, I note that the health service largely run XP. In fact, I don't remember seeing any other OS in use.
Are they big enough for you?
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Fri 26-Oct-12 09:15:34
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Deadbeat] [link to this post]
 
NHS Scotland has snubbed open source alternatives to re-engage with Microsoft after signing an Enterprise Agreement covering the deployment of Windows 7 on nearly 100,000 desktops.

The three year contract penned this summer is estimated to be worth around £5m in total with 17 of the 22 health boards in Scotland signing up.



_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Fri 26-Oct-12 09:24:53
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
So not even the whole of scotland signed up for that upgrade and NHS scotland is still only a very small chunk of the NHS in total. I have seen some department still using DOS based PC''s.

It doesn't matter if home users rush out and buy it in large numbers on the whole companies of all sizes as well as givernmen departments are very happy with XP, it does everything they want, they can get staff trained all to the same standard.

Getting Win 7 accepted was hard enough for enterpise customers Win8 will ne nearly impossable, and yes the "average" computer user in a company is an "idiot" who will throw a wobbly when something is moved or changed.

As far as I can see MS threw a big two fingered salute to the whole of their enterpise base and started chasing the tablet market which has little to zero money in it anyways.
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 26-Oct-12 09:42:11
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
Getting Win 7 accepted was hard enough for enterpise customers Win8 will be nearly impossible
I'm not convinced that that is true.
the "average" computer user in a company is an "idiot" who will throw a wobbly when something is moved or changed
You must have worked with some very poor companies. I migrated 1,000+ users from DOS to Windows 3.1, then to Windows 3.5, then to Windows 2000, then to Windows XP. Very few people took more than a few days to get used to the new systems. No-one ever asked to revert to the old one.
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 26-Oct-12 16:25:09
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
But why move the address bar from left to right?

Was Eclipse Home Option 1 & VM 2Mb
Now O2 standard
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 26-Oct-12 16:32:00
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
Some standard software and peripherals won't run on Win7. I had to buy a new Video Editing package and at least 3 wireless adapters have Vista drivers but no 7 drivers.

My older software worked on Win2K and XP.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1 & VM 2Mb
Now O2 standard
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 26-Oct-12 20:51:33
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
It's not on the right.. its on the left? I was referring to the fav button moving to the right of the address bar.

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User Deadbeat
(knowledge is power) Fri 26-Oct-12 21:03:33
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by broadband66:
........ I had to buy a new Video Editing package.......

Pinnacle 10?
In reply to a post by broadband66:
........ and at least 3 wireless adapters have Vista drivers but no 7 drivers

Vista drivers usually work OK under 7.
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 26-Oct-12 21:06:09
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Deadbeat] [link to this post]
 
wifi adapters come with the most shocking drivers of the lot. It is hard enough getting them working under the intended OS some time. From the problems I have seen and had with people's wifi adapters I could never blame any OS if it didn't work with them. Nasty stuff.

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User Deadbeat
(knowledge is power) Fri 26-Oct-12 21:45:15
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
I have to say that I've never had a problem and I've installed more than a few. I never use the proprietary supplicants though.
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 27-Oct-12 09:05:10
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
Applications don't have to be full screen; some are, some aren't. But you are quite right; multiple monitors is a far better solution than overlapping windows.


Metro apps are always full screen, ok you can split the screen, but only in a set way. i don't like that idea.

a second monitor would be better for video editing,

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 27-Oct-12 09:17:13
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
Metro apps are always full screen
Yes, but Metro Apps are not the sort that you typically run in conjunction with other programs. Actually, the great thing about Metro Apps (IMO) is the live icons that they display on the Start Screen. Wait for Apple to copy that one.
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 27-Oct-12 11:16:00
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
Metro apps are always full screen
Yes, but Metro Apps are not the sort that you typically run in conjunction with other programs


Metro apps are pretty basic to be honest.
. Actually, the great thing about Metro Apps (IMO) is the live icons that they display on the Start Screen. Wait for Apple to copy that one.


Not fond of that idea too be honest, I don't like the idea of being logged into Ms services all the time. How long will it be before Google brings out a app that allows you to stay logged into their services? that is if they have not already done so.


I got to sort out a Apple Mac tomorrow, My friend got problems with updating her Macbook pro. I have no idea why she asked me as I know very little about the Mac, I use it and that is about it. Oh well another learning curve. It may be because the update was downloaded for her Mac pro and now it is locked to that machine and since she did not want to waste the money, she wants to put it on he laptop.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 27-Oct-12 11:39:49
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
An example of a Metro App well worth checking out, anyone with Windows 8 and an interest in computing should check out the Stanford University App. Great stuff; there look to be similar apps from other establishments but that's the only one I've checked out so far.

I know it's stuff that is probably available on a normal browser, but the App makes it so accessible. Wish I had a Windows 8 tablet to run it on. I might get one of those tablet/notebook hybrids.
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 27-Oct-12 11:59:02
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
What is the software that you use at work?


it is not software as such as it works via Internet Explorer, it is a database on servers and boy are they slow. The problem is there are some bits which are no linked.

So say the database to do pos (point of sale) is not linked tot he main system. Normally I write down the Sku of the product that need the POS and stick that into the the system that allows us to print off POS. but last week I found out I could do that via the handset. so I went around the store scanning the products that had no advertising on and once i done I was told that i had to print off the report and then i still had to type all these sku numbers into the computer.

the other silly thing is that if someone is printing out POs, no one else can't even if they use a different printer

It seems to be the norm in most stores as most use the same system.

I suppose it comes down to costs and like all businses they will try and get things at a low cost, but it don't always work out to be the best.


We also got the normal stuff like word and excel,


But as I said I don't use the computer very often as i only do price control two days a week and even then I only spend less than a hour a day in front of the computer. The other days I am on the back door taking in deliveries. While I still have to use a computer when I do that it is only normally to print out the delivery report and that is a two min job.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Oct-12 18:06:21
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
Whatever! Why not leave it on the left. If it can be on the right it can be on the left.

Do most users type an address as the first thing they do? I doubt it. Most users will use the "Favorites" and as the English speakers/writers read from left to right then left seems to me the more logical place to start.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1 & VM 2Mb
Now O2 standard
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 28-Oct-12 18:11:24
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Deadbeat] [link to this post]
 
Yes, Pinnacle something to 14.

Had at least half-a-dozen bits of software worked via XP and Vista but didn't with W7. Very happy with W7 as had only 2 or 3 BSOD in 3 years. Only had Vista for about 2 months but had quite a few BSOD.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1 & VM 2Mb
Now O2 standard
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Sun 28-Oct-12 19:59:36
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by broadband66:
Whatever! Why not leave it on the left. If it can be on the right it can be on the left.

Do most users type an address as the first thing they do? I doubt it. Most users will use the "Favorites" and as the English speakers/writers read from left to right then left seems to me the more logical place to start.
FYI I almost never use 'favourites' (or bookmarks as Chrome call them). And yes, I mostly use the address bar. I know the first few characters to type and Chrome auto completes. 'bbs' for this forum. 'dig' for Digital Spy forums. 'The' for TheRegister etc.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 28-Oct-12 20:05:47
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
Most browsers nowadays supports some sort of Top Sites grid of frequently visited sites. This is what I use most, followed by favourites, and then direct typing of (part of) the URL.
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 29-Oct-12 12:04:51
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
People need to read posts properly. Are you one of the "most" I stated. Obviously not. I'm sure "MOST", I repeat, "MOST" browser users will use the "Favourites" option. There are millions of computer users and you are just one that so far doesn't fit the bill. Many more to come I'm sure.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1 & VM 2Mb
Now O2 standard
Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Mon 29-Oct-12 16:41:09
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by broadband66:
People need to read posts properly. Are you one of the "most" I stated. Obviously not. I'm sure "MOST", I repeat, "MOST" browser users will use the "Favourites" option. There are millions of computer users and you are just one that so far doesn't fit the bill. Many more to come I'm sure.
?!? Where did that rant come from?

I'm well aware what most means and I was just giving an example of an alternate way some people operate. I think it's you who needs to be more careful when reading posts. Flying off the handle at some imagined slight is silly.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 31-Oct-12 05:20:36
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
http://xpwasmyidea.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/features-r...

smile

the downgrade list.

also the UI design seems back to windows 95 and win 3.11 days? transparency gone and theming.

Plus on my VM it boots slower than windows 7 and on my laptop there is no visible difference (with SSD).

Edited by Chrysalis (Wed 31-Oct-12 05:37:25)

Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 31-Oct-12 05:26:19
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
Um - you pin the applications that you use frequently to the Start Page (in the same way that you pin them to the task bar or dock in other OSs).

As for just typing a program name rather than having to search through a menu or open a command prompt, do a directory listing, change to the directory, run the program - it's a no-brainer to me. That's one of the nice things about the Launchpad in OS X; it's so much quicker than peeing about with menus, command prompts, or file managers.


all those things require more clicks and time than doing the same task on windows 7, why would I pay for an OS that is harder to use than the one I got? On windows 7 I can view the start menu whilst still viewing the foreground app, the start screen on windows 8 takes full screen focus, its backward development focused for mobile devices.

The gui is ugly as well in desktop mode, I tried importing my win7 theme which had unexpected results, seems it no longer supports glowing buttons and gradient colours.

Edited by Chrysalis (Wed 31-Oct-12 05:56:57)

Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 31-Oct-12 05:28:55
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
I guess you're one of those who can't multi-task.
I guess you're wrong.

I guess you're one of those who can't get used to something new. wink


and you are one of those who thinks if its new it must be better.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 31-Oct-12 05:33:13
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
There are many many way for you to remain in the past, but Win 8 represents a shift towards unification of the OS over multiple platforms. And Metro represents the future.

In the future, the inferface will be touch rather than mouse, apps will run full screen and navigation will be achieved by gestures. You will be able to move the current session seamlessly between devices.

As a developer you will have access to whatever windows lie behind the scenes, but how many users have ever written any new software? Users access will be limited to the start screen, Metro.


Unification for home user's who get confused and are too simple to learn 2 OS's.

However dont be fooled metro is here to stay, if it doesnt sell well then microsoft will drop it fast like they did windows 7.

Also touch screen will not be a universal input device ever, its simply too inefficient. You forget not everyone uses their device to play, some people use it to work, can you see an office manager ever approving a touch screen device for its office workers to replace keyboards? extremely unlikely. What may eventually replace keyboards is voice input that has potential but not touch screen. Also the mouse I think will stay around as well due to the precision it gives over touch screen, the human finger is too big for precision. Trying to unify the corporate world with kids play toys is going to get messy.
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 31-Oct-12 07:20:13
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
If you have only used 8 in a VM then I can understand many of your problems. For some reason it just doesn't play well with VMs. Never has; I couldn't even get the early Betas to install on VirtualBox.

I never use Windows in VMs. Linux, Solaris, FreeBSD work just fine, but Windows is always a disappointing experience in a VM.
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 31-Oct-12 07:21:16
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Sometimes is, sometimes isn't. It takes a while to find out.
Standard User Malwaremike
(member) Wed 31-Oct-12 16:47:08
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Glad to see MHC has a choice of system. I've just checked with PC World for new desktops and I can have W8 or W8. No sale, then.

There's loads of guff about the great touchscreen experience but (1) we're touchtyped for 40+ years and (2) most of our activity involves typing. Touch keyboards drive us scatty, and touchscreens are not for us. frown

Our old machines on XP are still running perfectly with relatives. Why can't MS (and FF, and TB ...) leave well alone?
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 31-Oct-12 16:57:15
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Malwaremike] [link to this post]
 
If your old machines are still running perfectly well, why did you get rid of them?
Standard User Malwaremike
(member) Wed 31-Oct-12 17:09:01
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
I wanted something faster (Flight Sim addict) and XP had been replaced by W7. And when I get something new, my better half gets one too. Otherwise I don't get any dinner frown
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 31-Oct-12 17:16:23
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Malwaremike] [link to this post]
 
Now you know why Microsoft don't leave well enough alone. If they did you would still be using FS200, or even earlier versions, rather than the gorgeous FS X.

It's called progress.
Standard User Malwaremike
(member) Wed 31-Oct-12 17:32:59
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
Fair enough, I progressed to a faster machine and the OS that came with it. I take your point re FSX, 26 yrs of the real thing, now fly the sim!

Eventually W9 may be better for desktops, but I can't see much progress in W8's smeary fingermarked screen especially as we use Pshop quite often.
Standard User MHC
(legend) Wed 31-Oct-12 18:14:51
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8 part 2


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
So, looks like Win7 ... maybe with a cheap Win8 upgrade.

Should I go for 32 bit or 64 ? The primary apps it will be used with are the MS Office packages, plus VISIO along with Photoshop Elements and SilkyPix


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 31-Oct-12 20:34:42
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
Most browsers nowadays supports some sort of Top Sites grid of frequently visited sites. This is what I use most, followed by favourites, and then direct typing of (part of) the URL.


I either type the whole URL in, or type in enough so that the browser can find the site from my bookmarks or i just look though my bookmarks.

since i don't allow the browser to save any history, I can't look though the history.

that is the way I do it.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 31-Oct-12 21:37:51
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8 part 2


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Get Windows 8, don't mess about.

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 31-Oct-12 21:39:18
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Malwaremike] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Malwaremike:
There's loads of guff about the great touchscreen experience but (1) we're touchtyped for 40+ years and (2) most of our activity involves typing. Touch keyboards drive us scatty, and touchscreens are not for us. frown

Then don't buy a touchscreen PC? What does Windows 8 have to do with that?

Oh yes, silly me, because Microsoft have added better touch support people are confusing this with the assumption Windows 8 is built exclusively for touchscreens!

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 31-Oct-12 22:02:54
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
I was skeptical about touch screens until I got an iPad. Now I find myself trying to swipe the screen on my main PC. The problem with the iPad is no keyboard - a virtual keyboard just doesn't cut it.

Cue Surface. It may take a while to catch on, but Microsoft have a real winner here. This is where Apple's dominance of the tablet market ends.

But your point is correct. Just because the OS supports a touchscreen doesn't mean one is essential. This is the great thing about Windows 8 (which, paradoxically is what people are complaining about - they just don't get it yet); it works beautifully as a tablet OS or as a PC OS. It's too good for its own good!
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 02-Nov-12 19:26:01
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
The surface is fantastic hardware. What I find more amazing though is how good Windows RT is. I was expecting it to be a severely chopped down version of Windows and pretty much locked into Modern UI with exception of office and IE. It really isn't! Command prompt is there, the MMC, control panel, device manager, event viewer, powershell, file manager, remote desktop. File shares? No problem!

It has not lost any of its Windows character at all - which is a big win for me.

Microsoft engineers have done an amazing job at porting this in my opinion to behave in a tablet form, and they haven't cut corners, a LOT of stuff has been ported, anyone who slags it off as a kludge or a hack in my opinion probably doesn't realise what a technical accomplishment it is.

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 03-Nov-12 08:58:19
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
I was skeptical about touch screens until I got an iPad. Now I find myself trying to swipe the screen on my main PC. The problem with the iPad is no keyboard - a virtual keyboard just doesn't cut it.


I did say a 3 years back I was never going to get a touch screen phone. when i went sim only, I got a cheap and I mean cheap touch screen just to see if i would like it and then eventually got a HTC wildfire with a contract.

Not sure what I will do when contract is up, while touch screen is fine for some things, i do miss a physical keypad.

I certainly would not get a laptop or desktop with a touch screen.

Cue Surface. It may take a while to catch on, but Microsoft have a real winner here. This is where Apple's dominance of the tablet market ends.


i think it already have, but not because of Microsoft, I think MS will find it difficult to get into the tablet market. the tablets that are taking the sales away from Apple are Android based. Mainly because of the price,.

The surface is a bit hit and missed from what I have read.

Myself, I still don't see the point in tablets.

But your point is correct. Just because the OS supports a touchscreen doesn't mean one is essential. This is the great thing about Windows 8 (which, paradoxically is what people are complaining about - they just don't get it yet); it works beautifully as a tablet OS or as a PC OS. It's too good for its own good!



The problem is it don't work beautifully as a PC OS, using the Modern UI with a mouse is awful and a lot of the options that was easy to get and find on windows 7 and below is either pain or not obvious.

Going to town in a bit with a friend to get a laptop, was was going in the week but things got a bit hectic, I know they don't want windows 8, so we will have to see if we can get a decent windows 7 machine for them. If not then they will either do the downgrade to windows 7 or upgrade as they call it or they will use something like classic start.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 03-Nov-12 09:03:13
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
The surface is fantastic hardware. What I find more amazing though is how good Windows RT is. I was expecting it to be a severely chopped down version of Windows and pretty much locked into Modern UI with exception of office and IE. It really isn't! Command prompt is there, the MMC, control panel, device manager, event viewer, powershell, file manager, remote desktop. File shares? No problem!

It has not lost any of its Windows character at all - which is a big win for me.

Microsoft engineers have done an amazing job at porting this in my opinion to behave in a tablet form, and they haven't cut corners, a LOT of stuff has been ported, anyone who slags it off as a kludge or a hack in my opinion probably doesn't realise what a technical accomplishment it is.


The surface reviews have been a bit hit and miss, some things they find good and then other things like the reliability they don't like.

What is the surface suppose to be, is it a tablet with a limited OS or a full blwn netbook style machine?Even MS don't seem to know,


What is the point in putting a windows based system on a machine which will not run any windows software, why not just stick to the metro UI and run everything from there?

Now the surface pro could be a different kettle of fish as it will be a intel based machine that will be able to run windows software.

i would not pay £300 or more for a machine that is limite,d I would rather spend the money on a laptop that can do everything.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 03-Nov-12 09:22:39
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
i would not pay £300 or more for a machine that is limite,d I would rather spend the money on a laptop that can do everything.
You may not, Adrian, but the success of the iPad shows that there is a huge demand for such machines. And Surface fixes the one big flaw of the iPad - lack of a decent keyboard.

Of course the reviews of the first iteration of a novel device have been a bit hit and miss. So were early reviews of the iPad. It will take a little while for it to come up to speed, and for any bugs to be ironed out, but it is a brilliant concept. (And the ad is cooler than Apple's smug ones too!)
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 03-Nov-12 15:36:43
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
Surface RT does not come across as a limited OS... Yes it can't run x86 programs but that's a given. The rest of Windows is there in full glory.

What is the point in putting a windows based system on a machine which will not run any windows software, why not just stick to the metro UI and run everything from there?

Because if they had done that they would have dissapointed people like me who want to use things such as notepad, command prompt, control panel, etc... This is something they should be commended on not criticized on, and as usual, if people don't want to go on the desktop on their Surface RT bar Office Suite, then don't, nobody forces them.

It is refreshing how much more freedom you have with Windows RT as opposed to iOS on an iPad, I can plug in memory sticks and manage files on them, connect to shares on my other PCs/Servers, ping my router, etc..

As an IT professional at work, it makes total sense, how do you ping something on an iPad or perform a traceroute without buying apps? I am not quite sure. With a surface I can do the whole lot, as well as remote desktop into servers or create a RDP session to a domain joined PC... then I can effectively manage everything.

The surface is filling a gap in the market - but I do agree with you, I still do prefer a PC to a laptop or tablet/netbook.

Zen 8000 Pro

Edited by Pipexer (Sat 03-Nov-12 15:55:14)

Standard User Desmond
(sensei) Sat 03-Nov-12 23:40:01
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
And Surface fixes the one big flaw of the iPad - lack of a decent keyboard.

You can get lots of keyboards for iPads. Actually, you can use any bluetooth keyboard wth one. It is worth noting that Apple did sell a dock connected keyboard when the iPad was first released, but they dropped it pretty quickly because no one was buying it. They do still offer their small Bluetooth keyboard (can also be used with an iPhone or Mac or PC) as an accessory now and here are several third party Bluetooth keyboard/case offers out there (some for as little as £19). There's one problem; almost no one buys them (probably why they sell for as little as £19) and even when they do I can say that I have only ever seen an iPad being used in conjuction with a keyboard twice. Clearly, among the 100,000,000 iPad owners out there only a vanishingly small number miss a keyboard enough when using a tablet to buy one. Despite this Microsoft think that their hugely over priced surface keyboard is a killer feature for them. Good luck with that. crazy

I suspect that most of that 100,000,000 iPad owners own one because they consider a keyboard something they are happy not to have for the convenience of..... well, not having their tablet turned into a netbook! If they really wanted or needed one they would have bought a netbook running Windows for less money, but the collapse in netbook sales that reflects the surge in tablet sales seems to suggest that people have already spoken with their purses and wallets.

Des

The original 32 bit junkie now snorting pure 64. Sky Broadband, Wired, Wireless, VoIP, 1 Mac, 2. Hackintoshes, 1 PC, 2 HTPCs, iPhone, iPad, OS X, Windows 7

Rehab is for quitters

Edited by Desmond (Sun 04-Nov-12 00:21:04)

Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 04-Nov-12 00:14:23
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
Surface RT does not come across as a limited OS... Yes it can't run x86 programs but that's a given. The rest of Windows is there in full glory.


Then it is limited then. a waste of time having the rest of windows or what looks like the rest of windows if you can't run normal software, you may as well go for Linux.


Because if they had done that they would have dissapointed people like me who want to use things such as notepad, command prompt, control panel, etc... This is something they should be commended on not criticized on, and as usual, if people don't want to go on the desktop on their Surface RT bar Office Suite, then don't, nobody forces them.



I still can't see the point, Ms could have out a note pad on the Metro UI. control panel is a waste of time if you got limited control and so is command prompt.

It is refreshing how much more freedom you have with Windows RT as opposed to iOS on an iPad, I can plug in memory sticks and manage files on them, connect to shares on my other PCs/Servers, ping my router, etc..

As an IT professional at work, it makes total sense, how do you ping something on an iPad or perform a traceroute without buying apps? I am not quite sure. With a surface I can do the whole lot, as well as remote desktop into servers or create a RDP session to a domain joined PC... then I can effectively manage everything.

The surface is filling a gap in the market - but I do agree with you, I still do prefer a PC to a laptop or tablet/netbook.



Most people who buy a Ipad, no doubt have no idea what a traceroute is never mind how to do one and I also think most people who will buy something like the Surface will be the same.


MS should stick with what they know best and that is the OS for computers and even then I think they lost the plot. surface is a hybrid and not a very good one at that.
Keyboard may be useful, but it costs extra.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 04-Nov-12 07:13:42
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Desmond] [link to this post]
 
You are quite right. I never use a bluetooth keyboard with my iPad. This is not because it wouldn't sometimes be useful but, unlike Surface, they are afterthoughts and don't really integrate smoothly. And the iPad software is so limited that there is not a lot of use for a keyboard.

Time will tell about Surface but, even ignoring the fact that it comes with a version of Office, it should be trivial for software publishers to port anything to Windows RT. The iPad was designed as a fairly restricted tablet; Microsoft have learned from that and designed a decent portable computer that can also be used as a tablet.

But the market will prove who's right; there's little point in trying to second-guess it. Apple, and their fans, are knocking it, and Windows 8, so robustly that I suspect they recognize the threat.
Standard User Desmond
(sensei) Sun 04-Nov-12 07:58:06
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
Apple, and their fans, are knocking it,


Apple have had almost nothing to say about Surface. When asked Tim Cook admitted he'd not seen or used one, but said ... "we're reading that it's a fairly compromised, confusing product." adding, "I suppose you could design a car that flies and floats, but I don't think it would do all of those things very well. When people look at the iPad versus competitive offerings, I think they'll continue to want an iPad." I suspect he is right.

Des

The original 32 bit junkie now snorting pure 64. Sky Broadband, Wired, Wireless, VoIP, 1 Mac, 2. Hackintoshes, 1 PC, 2 HTPCs, iPhone, iPad, OS X, Windows 7

Rehab is for quitters
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Sun 04-Nov-12 09:17:59
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Desmond] [link to this post]
 
I agree it doesn't seem to be Apple users who are knocking win8 or surface but windows usres who definately don't like the direction that MS have taken.

Apple isn't worried at all they have sheer fanactical following with people buying their products year after year.

But we have heard all the same rhetoric from MS, wasn't Zune meant to be the iPod killer?
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 04-Nov-12 09:25:38
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
The word "from the horse's mouth" (reference very much intended). And the man hadn't actually seen a Surface.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 04-Nov-12 11:53:00
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
He's probably unaware that Surface comes with Office, so it's usable in a business environment - unlike the iPad.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 04-Nov-12 12:12:37
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
I think he's got his fair share of problems right now. Faltering sales, plumetting shares, increasingly serious competition, disastrous court cases, and now the prospect of a jail sentence in absentia for contempt of court. This guy is no Steve Jobs.
Standard User DavidFinbarr
(freechataholic) Sun 04-Nov-12 12:39:28
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Desmond] [link to this post]
 
Apple have had almost nothing to say about Surface. When asked Tim Cook admitted he'd not seen or used one, but said ... "we're reading that it's a fairly compromised, confusing product."


Anyone that doesn't think Apple isn't closely looking at it to see if they think MS are infringing any of their patents are deluded.

A bottle of white, a bottle of red
Perhaps a bottle of rosé instead.

Edited by DavidFinbarr (Sun 04-Nov-12 12:40:06)

Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 04-Nov-12 12:52:29
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: DavidFinbarr] [link to this post]
 
Microsoft are too clever for that; and they have their own portfolio of patents. This is why Apple are worried enough about Surface to start rubbishing it. Here they have to compete in the market, not in the courts.
Standard User Desmond
(sensei) Mon 05-Nov-12 06:47:38
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: DavidFinbarr] [link to this post]
 
Anyone that doesn't think Apple isn't closely looking at it to see if they think MS are infringing any of their patents are deluded.

Did I say they weren't?

Des

The original 32 bit junkie now snorting pure 64. Sky Broadband, Wired, Wireless, VoIP, 1 Mac, 2. Hackintoshes, 1 PC, 2 HTPCs, iPhone, iPad, OS X, Windows 7

Rehab is for quitters
Standard User Desmond
(sensei) Mon 05-Nov-12 06:56:11
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
so it's usable in a business environment - unlike the iPad.

Anyone who thinks that it needs office to be useful or already deployed in huge numbers in business environments is displaying a chronic lack of imagination and knowledge whren it comes what actually goes on in a business environment.

Des

The original 32 bit junkie now snorting pure 64. Sky Broadband, Wired, Wireless, VoIP, 1 Mac, 2. Hackintoshes, 1 PC, 2 HTPCs, iPhone, iPad, OS X, Windows 7

Rehab is for quitters
Standard User NaNook
(freechataholic) Mon 05-Nov-12 15:15:57
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
Massive fail. This is the end for M$
Standard User NaNook
(freechataholic) Mon 05-Nov-12 15:20:10
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
You makes I larf!
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 05-Nov-12 16:37:35
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Desmond] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Desmond:
so it's usable in a business environment - unlike the iPad.

Anyone who thinks that it needs office to be useful or already deployed in huge numbers in business environments is displaying a chronic lack of imagination and knowledge whren it comes what actually goes on in a business environment.
Why would anyone have to use their imagination for what goes on in a business environment. All the business environments I know use Office, especially Word, Excel and Outlook. How can an iPad be used for that?


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User Desmond
(sensei) Mon 05-Nov-12 23:19:58
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Your imagination really is failing you if you think office environments are using or expecting to use iPads as if they were replacements for PCs. They are not and do not claim to be any such thing. This is where Surface falls over. Only a lunatic would try and use unoptimised Office type apps on a tablet of any sort and that includes Surface without a keyboard since with one it is nothing other than a pathetically speced, badly designed and spectacularly over priced laptop. However, Microsoft think this is Surface's unique selling point. crazy

Incidentally an iPad works perfectly with Exchange and thus with Outlook. Clearly, your knowledge of iPads is about on the same level as your knowledge of business environments or the finer details of string theory. wink laugh

Des

The original 32 bit junkie now snorting pure 64. Sky Broadband, Wired, Wireless, VoIP, 1 Mac, 2. Hackintoshes, 1 PC, 2 HTPCs, iPhone, iPad, OS X, Windows 7

Rehab is for quitters
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 05-Nov-12 23:27:24
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Desmond] [link to this post]
 
Well, even my iPhone manages to sync with my Exchange server, albeit in a very basic way. But I can't pretend it replaces Outlook. And what about Word and Excel? Do you actually know what these are?

Don't get me started on M-theory wink


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User Desmond
(sensei) Tue 06-Nov-12 00:11:13
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
I use Word and Excel every day and integrate them into AutoCAD and Revit and NBS and all sorts of other things. Amazingly, an iPad handles that most spectacularly awful of things called AutoCAD with ease. It's great for viewing and explaining things somewhere where you are without access to a 28" screen attached to a PC, but isn't that the point of it? I'd hardly expect to be creating models of a 40,000 sq ft building or writing War and Peace or creating a spreadsheet to explain the US electoral college on an iPad. crazy

Did I say an iPad replaced Outlook? That said, I'm not sure what Outlook in it's widest sense adds for me when I want a one handed device most of all. Incidentally, I manage an Exchange server so I think I know the advantages and limitations of this ecosystem and Exchange/Outlook is a very limited, proprietory system. Frankly, it's pathetic when it comes to interfacing with mobile environments (not kust Apple here, but Android and Blackberry - remember them?), but isn't that Microsoft's problem? I'm not sure trying to tie everone to a badly conceived pseudo tablet ecosystem is the solution of choice for anyone other than a very lazy Microsoft.

Des

The original 32 bit junkie now snorting pure 64. Sky Broadband, Wired, Wireless, VoIP, 1 Mac, 2. Hackintoshes, 1 PC, 2 HTPCs, iPhone, iPad, OS X, Windows 7

Rehab is for quitters
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Tue 06-Nov-12 08:28:08
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Desmond] [link to this post]
 
Ah, so an iPad makes a good wireless photo frame. Just what you need in a business environment. Obviously you still need a PC to create those pictures, spreadsheets and documents. You can use it to send the odd email though, as a bonus.


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Standard User Desmond
(sensei) Wed 07-Nov-12 06:51:36
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Repeatedly reinforcing yourlack of knowledge and imagination really isn't helpng your cause.

Des

The original 32 bit junkie now snorting pure 64. Sky Broadband, Wired, Wireless, VoIP, 1 Mac, 2. Hackintoshes, 1 PC, 2 HTPCs, iPhone, iPad, OS X, Windows 7

Rehab is for quitters
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 07-Nov-12 09:30:38
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Desmond] [link to this post]
 
It takes a lot of imagination, maybe too much, to come up with a sensible idea for using a consumer device in a business environment. I recall some hospital consultants attempting to use iPods to store their notes. I'm not sure how many deaths occurred as a result.

The fact remains that there are cheaper wireless photo frames available.


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Standard User Desmond
(sensei) Wed 07-Nov-12 22:41:42
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Still displaying that chronic knowledge and imagination defecit when it comes to business environments.

Des

The original 32 bit junkie now snorting pure 64. Sky Broadband, Wired, Wireless, VoIP, 1 Mac, 2. Hackintoshes, 1 PC, 2 HTPCs, iPhone, iPad, OS X, Windows 7

Rehab is for quitters
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 07-Nov-12 22:51:59
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Desmond] [link to this post]
 
If you say it three times, it still isn't true. You appear unable to move the discussion along. Use your imagination.


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Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 00:16:20
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Desmond] [link to this post]
 
Perhaps, Desmond, you can tell us then how Apple devices and their software can solve the business need.

As far as I understand it apple devices lack plenty of the management features that a business will require - let alone actual products. Where is their enterprise email system, collaboration system, software deployment system, management system, database software, encryption software that is compliant with governmental standards?

You tell us!

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 06:55:27
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
The big problem for corporate use is the lack of an enterprise level server OS and no proper hardware upon which to run the rather half-hearted offering.
Standard User NaNook
(freechataholic) Thu 08-Nov-12 10:42:14
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Rather odd that, using an MP3 player for the purposes you allude to.

Please provide verifiable references/links to this information for further consideration.
Standard User NaNook
(freechataholic) Thu 08-Nov-12 10:42:53
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
Why would anyone want to use an iPOD for business purposes, especially when it is not marketed as such.
Standard User NaNook
(freechataholic) Thu 08-Nov-12 10:43:41
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
And of course, you would use an MP3 player for business purposes.
Standard User NaNook
(freechataholic) Thu 08-Nov-12 10:44:28
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
It takes a hell of a lot of imagination to understand the use of an MP3 player in the workplace, other than to erm, play MP3s.
Standard User DavidFinbarr
(freechataholic) Thu 08-Nov-12 12:15:32
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
Last time I used a Apple/ Mac in a working environment was in the 80's.
I've used countless Windows, many in-house systems, and even SAP.

So from personal experience there must be something lacking in regard to business needs.

A bottle of white, a bottle of red
Perhaps a bottle of rosé instead.
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 12:22:52
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: DavidFinbarr] [link to this post]
 
The main problem that we used to have with Macs was that they just wouldn't integrate with our systems. Networks almost exclusively run on Windows Server and the more serious stuff ran on IBM mainframes. Windows machines, naturally, integrate well with Windows Server, Macs don't. And, again, IBM support integration with Windows machines (not really that different from OS/2 as they started from a common code base) but not Macs.

The Macs were used exclusively in the design department and were really just standalone machines. We did also run OS X server on an XServe, but that is all history now. Most enterprises don't care what the computers look like, or how cool they are; they just want them to work well with other IT systems.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 14:42:24
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
for those that think the desktop is just the same as windows 7, if we ignore the aero removal, if we also ignore the start menu removal.

Double click a file with a unknown file extension and look at the interface, you get a metro popup on the desktop, the window cannot be dragged around, it has no x to close it or a cancel button, the background colour etc. dont match the desktop, if you then click search for a program to use, the icons have a background colour which matches metro and looks very odd on the desktop like its in alpha or something.

Also it seems the IE10 enhanced protected mode I mentioned earlier isnt working for me now, seems somewhat buggy. Plus frequent crashes in IE10.

Ironically microsoft had full aero in the windows 8 preview, it was only removed on the RTM version at the last minute (quite possibly also on earlier internal builds). People developing aero for windows 8 RTM have got DCMA notices from microsoft.
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 14:47:22
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
The main problem that we used to have with Macs was that they just wouldn't integrate with our systems. Networks almost exclusively run on Windows Server and the more serious stuff ran on IBM mainframes. Windows machines, naturally, integrate well with Windows Server, Macs don't. And, again, IBM support integration with Windows machines (not really that different from OS/2 as they started from a common code base) but not Macs.

The Macs were used exclusively in the design department and were really just standalone machines. We did also run OS X server on an XServe, but that is all history now. Most enterprises don't care what the computers look like, or how cool they are; they just want them to work well with other IT systems.


All the business I know off and have worked for have never used the latest windows version, one I worked for when vista had launched and even had vista oem keys written on all their desktops was using NT4 for their OS. Of all the business's I know now the majority use either XP or windows 2000. I dont know any using vista or windows 7 except for a few machines. Now windows 8 is launched a business ahs no urgent need to use it, windows 7 is supported for many years yet but even when EOL hits, businesses dont seem to care and will still use an EOL OS if they have no business case to upgrade.
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 17:14:50
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Any business running Windows 7 is in a perfect position to upgrade to Windows 8 - the compatibility aspects are so similiar it is a piece of cake to do a phased migration of a few PCs. Organizations in this position would be wise to gradually start upgrading sooner rather than later and get it over and done with.

Not only that I think licensing would be fairly reasonable going from 7 to 8.

Going from XP is a considerable nightmare.

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 18:22:13
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
Any business running Windows 7 is in a perfect position to upgrade to Windows 8 - the compatibility aspects are so similiar it is a piece of cake to do a phased migration of a few PCs. Organizations in this position would be wise to gradually start upgrading sooner rather than later and get it over and done with.

Not only that I think licensing would be fairly reasonable going from 7 to 8.

Going from XP is a considerable nightmare.


what business care about is first and foremost the business case to upgrade, they dont upgrade because its easy or hard to, they upgrade if there is a business reason to. Also you stating about upgrading from windows 7 when most businesses are not even using windows 7, look at the stats for IE6 and it will give you an idea what OS most are using. Windows 8 I have posted now several posts highlighting problems with it that are things you dont expect in a business OS. None of the posts have receieved any direct reply.

A second thing a business will car about is the impact on its efficiency, any change of UI is going to cause serious doubts.

Yes there may be a few business's using it for the sake of it but it wont be any notable number. Windows 8 is designed to appeal to those who enjoy novelties.

Also you ignored that business's tend to (a) wait for at least a SP1 and (b) their current OS is on its last legs.

So your last line is more relevant given that more business's use XP than windows 7.
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 18:32:24
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
what business care about is first and foremost the business case to upgrade,

I know this. Try managing 1000+ computers on Windows XP and then try managing them on Windows 7. You'll soon see a business case.
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
look at the stats for IE6 and it will give you an idea what OS most are using.

I don't know what stats you are looking at but not many people use IE6 any more. Perhaps the idiots over at the UK government but most others have actually pulled their finger out and upgraded. Over the past year or so there has been a major push and effort to reduce usage.
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
Windows 8 I have posted now several posts highlighting problems with it that are things you dont expect in a business OS. None of the posts have receieved any direct reply.

Like what?
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
Also you ignored that business's tend to (a) wait for at least a SP1

That's probably because their IT consultants or IT staff are [censored] idiots. As soon as I hear that line it is often a good indication you are dealing with someone who is about 10 years in the past and/or a total idiot.

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 18:41:36
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
managing computers is just a small part of any business case. One has to also address the people using those 1000 computers, costs of upgrading, costs of redeveloping apps, downtime and more.

If you are going ahead tho bumping your 1k to windows 8 I am curious how it goes wink so I hope you update us.
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 18:51:40
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In a large enterprise management of the IT systems is not trivial - your IT team are responsible for a large budget and all have their own fields. Just look at the IT department in a typical council. It is often the bane of the rest of the council workers lives, but that is because councils tend to employ bafoons to run their IT!

IT is integral to almost all business operations.

There is no need for any exclusive downtime if done properly, that is the beauty of Windows. By all means if you have mucked up your domain so extensively that nobody knows how to do anything with it then you will have problems, but don't blame Microsoft for that.

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 21:10:50
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
Any business running Windows 7 is in a perfect position to upgrade to Windows 8 - the compatibility aspects are so similiar it is a piece of cake to do a phased migration of a few PCs. Organizations in this position would be wise to gradually start upgrading sooner rather than later and get it over and done with.

Not only that I think licensing would be fairly reasonable going from 7 to 8.

Going from XP is a considerable nightmare.


I can't see the company I work for updating to windows 8, they only updated from windows 2000 to XP a couple of years back.

I bet they have a couple of thousand machines if not more in total.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 08-Nov-12 21:11:55
Print Post

Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: DavidFinbarr] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by DavidFinbarr:
Last time I used a Apple/ Mac in a working environment was in the 80's.
I've used countless Windows, many in-house systems, and even SAP.

So from personal experience there must be something lacking in regard to business needs.


i know someone who uses Apple MACs in a working environment, ok it is a home business but it is still a working environment.smile

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 7 pro 64bit , laptop by ubuntu

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User superspeed
(learned) Fri 09-Nov-12 20:59:34
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
No way would I buy a new laptop or PC with windows 8. It is god awful. Stick with win 7.
Standard User cavillas
(knowledge is power) Sun 11-Nov-12 17:29:28
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Re: Win7 or Win8


[re: superspeed] [link to this post]
 
I find windows 8 intuitive, fast and responsive. It runs anything I throw at it and makes lovely regular backups of my main files. All good so far and no problems. I also like the inbuilt spell checker for IE10 and other apps.

Alf
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