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Standard User wingco1
(legend) Sun 03-Nov-13 11:15:48
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Window 8.1


[link to this post]
 
For someone who doesn't use the Metro interface, charms or apps of Win 8, is there any benefit updating to 8.1?
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 03-Nov-13 11:28:23
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: wingco1] [link to this post]
 
Yes, you'll be on the current version.


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Standard User GeoffB
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 03-Nov-13 12:05:34
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
I think 8.1 lets you boot straight to the desktop. The same thought has occurred to me as I keep being prompted to upgrade but I can't see much benefit apart from being able to avoid that dreaded 'death by apps' start screen. Having tried out a few of the apps, I'm baffled as to how Microsoft can see this mess as an improvement on Win 7. The IE app is fine for a mobile phone but who needs it on a laptop? The basic error I think was to assume that most computers are mobile devices, which they're not really.

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Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 03-Nov-13 12:13:37
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: wingco1] [link to this post]
 
Yes, particularly if you use SkyDrive. I haven't heard any serious problems reported in 8.1 and it's free, so what have you got to lose? If particularly cautious you might want to take an image of your current setup before proceeding. I always do this, having been burnt a number of times in the past. It seems to be common nowadays (particularly with Apple and Sony) to make updates non-reversible.
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 03-Nov-13 13:11:06
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: GeoffB] [link to this post]
 
Re the IE app just go into options and make it always load IE on the desktop. I have to say I think MS slip up with that one and they should have made it detect if IE was being used on a desktop and laptop and make it open on the desktop by default, but apart from that...

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Standard User wingco1
(legend) Sun 03-Nov-13 21:07:21
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
Tried it didn't like it. Got a message about "Security booting had not installed correctly" or something similar. Lost Windows Mail which worked fine on Win 8 along with some other tweaks.

Having followed your advice I took an image prior to installation, so was able to revert to Win 8 with all my functionality.
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 04-Nov-13 08:44:21
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: wingco1] [link to this post]
 
Depends, I have helped two different people update their machines to 8.1 and i have now put both machines back to Windows 8, i am so glad I made images of both machines.

One person thought his machine was running slower and to be honest it did seem a bit slower, but the main reason both changed back to windows 8 is because of sky drive. they both uses skydrive, they use a desktop application, which don't work on 8.1. With 8.1 your computer have to stay connected to the Microsoft account. they did not like that idea.

in other words you can't use sky drive in 8,1 like you could in windows 8 with a local account.

As of yet, I have not updated, still running windows 8, not that I use it much these days.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 8 pro 64bit, no dreaded metro , laptop by Mint

ALLPAY Wireless broadband

Edited by zyborg47 (Mon 04-Nov-13 08:45:56)

Standard User ian72
(knowledge is power) Mon 04-Nov-13 08:45:24
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: wingco1] [link to this post]
 
Upgraded my tablet to 8.1 and have had more BSODs than ever had on 8.0. But that is partly the nature of the tablet as it only gets turned off when it crashes (whereas laptops and desktops I tend to shut down after every use).
Standard User philippercival
(experienced) Mon 04-Nov-13 21:31:42
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
Updated to 8.1 (on my laptop) and following your message (thank you for the alert) did a quick search and found this article on how to make sure skydrive synchronises as before.

I use skydrive to automatically copy everything to my laptop from my desktop. It still seems to be working fine. In that I modified a file on my desktop, waited for a while for things to update, then disconnected the laptop from the network and opened the file. All modifications were there.

If there is something I am not allowing for then I would be grateful for further alerts.

The rest of the article is interesting as well.

A large number of family and friends live in very rural areas, with very slow connections. It amazes me that Microsoft and others do not seem to take this into account when they make these decisions. If I had a windows phone, then although I have a good interent connection, the mobile signal here will hardly get 3G, so I guess skydrive would be a no no.

http://speedtest.net/result/2459383290.png

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Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 05-Nov-13 08:58:02
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: philippercival] [link to this post]
 
The problem with skydrive on 8.1 is that you have to have your whole computer logged into Microsoft servers to use it, while on windows 8 you can use a local account on your computer and use the desktop application to sync Skydrive.

The other problem i have is how much info is really going up to Ms servers.

You can still use sky drive on slower connections and there are ways to change the settings and turn it off if you want to.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 8 pro 64bit, no dreaded metro , laptop by Mint

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Standard User johnjburness
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 10-Nov-13 15:21:19
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: wingco1] [link to this post]
 
I've just got a new 8.1 PC &, when I was setting it up, it gave me the option of whether I wanted Skydrive or not (it SPECIALLY stated that it could be removed later). On the basis of being able to remove it, I accepted it!

It now appears that I was misled & that you cannot remove it!! It now appears I have to re-load Win 8.1 from scratch again! Not bad having to re-build a PC only 48hrs after initial install!

Regards,
John

NB:- I've already suffered from "losing" a document because of SkyDrive - I thought I'd saved it to "Documents", but it transpires that there is both a Skydrive "Documents" & a PC "Documents". Even though I have sorted this out & made Word (et al) default to the proper "Documents", it still seems to try to want to force me into Skydrive, which I don't want!

Regards,
John
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 10-Nov-13 15:37:31
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: johnjburness] [link to this post]
 
A disappointing oversight from Microsoft indeed - unfortunately 99% of people are happy putting data in the cloud for the UK and US government to snoop on it. They should know better.

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Standard User johnjburness
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 10-Nov-13 16:03:46
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
A disappointing oversight from Microsoft indeed - unfortunately 99% of people are happy putting data in the cloud for the UK and US government to snoop on it. They should know better.

Agreed.

I already have my own Cloud provision, where I save everything to, hence I really do NOT need another & conflicting location!

Regards,
John
Standard User MrTAToad2
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 10-Nov-13 16:08:10
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
I've got rid of my Dropbox account last month... Google & Skydrive aren't used much and I'll make sure all the files uploaded are encrypted...

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Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 11-Nov-13 09:23:58
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: johnjburness] [link to this post]
 
You can get rid of it, you the simplest way is just to put your computer as a local account. the problem is that if you want to use sky drive as it used to be on windows 8 or 7 even, then you can't as the app will not work.

I have still not updated my windows 8 to 8.1.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 8 pro 64bit, no dreaded metro , laptop by Mint

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User Desmond
(sensei) Sat 16-Nov-13 21:42:01
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: MrTAToad2] [link to this post]
 
I'll make sure all the files uploaded are encrypted...

You really think you are that interesting?

Tragic!

Des

Sky Broadband, Wired, Wireless, VoIP, 1 Mac, 2. Hackintoshes, 1 PC, 2 HTPCs, iPhone, iPad, OS X, Windows 7, Hate and 8 rhyming is not an accident!

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Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 17-Nov-13 20:09:19
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: Desmond] [link to this post]
 
Bit disparaging! No one is THAT interesting including yourself.

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Standard User Oscar2013
(newbie) Fri 22-Nov-13 11:05:11
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: MrTAToad2] [link to this post]
 
I've been using Win 8 (10 months) on a laptop and 8.1 (about 3 months) on a 4 year old desktop. I have to say from a performance point of view both machine are quicker. I'm not that fussed about the tiles though smile One thought I did have, from Microsoft point of view are they hindering sales of PC's if Windows users may put off upgrading their machines because their machine are getting an extended lease of life? Or is this just my experience?

For cloud backup / sync encryption I use Spideroak, downside is only 2Gb free then paid after that, but that is enough for me.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Wed 27-Nov-13 09:03:38
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: Oscar2013] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Oscar2013:
One thought I did have, from Microsoft point of view are they hindering sales of PC's if Windows users may put off upgrading their machines because their machine are getting an extended lease of life? Or is this just my experience?


Windows 8 is hindering sales by keeping people on XP/Vista/7

--

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Standard User MrTAToad2
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 27-Nov-13 13:12:01
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
And what is wrong with that ? There is no real advantage in upgrading, aside from some flashy rectangles...

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Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 27-Nov-13 13:23:38
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: MrTAToad2] [link to this post]
 
Well, there is a much improved task manager, gesture-based login, file history, native support for advanced format disks, greatly improved search,.... Just a small selection of the many improvements since Windows 7. As for since Windows XP - you'd have to be pretty blind not to see the improvements in newer versions of Windows, including some really huge ones like Hyper-V (or, indeed, proper support for multiple cores and 64-bit processors).
Standard User MrTAToad2
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 01:30:37
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
oh yes - a nice flashy Task Manager that has a few new tabs. Whooopppee!

That is worth the price of Windows 8 alone.

Really, it is.

No, really

And the background colour when you press CTRL+ALT+DELETE. My, that blue is soooo nice. A blue's blue, if you will. That blue is almost worth the price of Windows alone.

Then there is the boot-up screen. That is... boring....

But the shutdown screen is great! That blue; that blue's blue; that is the blue of true progress.

The animation is nice too.

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Edited by MrTAToad2 (Thu 28-Nov-13 01:38:54)

Standard User pcologist
(newbie) Thu 28-Nov-13 06:50:45
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: MrTAToad2] [link to this post]
 
Best you stay where you are then son if you are happy with what you have. But in my opinion I really enjoy Win 8.1 it is a very clever OS and there are some very innovative changes under the hood and incidentally if you don't like the tiles then don't use them 8.1 boots direct to the desktop,
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 06:57:04
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: MrTAToad2] [link to this post]
 
You seem very hung up on superficialities rather than the real improvements under the hood. Fair enough. Many people still think that Windows 95 was the best version of Windows.
Standard User johnjburness
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 07:38:04
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: pcologist] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by pcologist:
Best you stay where you are then son if you are happy with what you have. But in my opinion I really enjoy Win 8.1 it is a very clever OS and there are some very innovative changes under the hood and incidentally if you don't like the tiles then don't use them 8.1 boots direct to the desktop,

On my new 8.1 it certainly boots faster (et al), although that may be because I've got a faster PC, but I'm still struggling with the interface!

I've got it so it boots into the Desktop, but hitting the "Start-Button" takes me to a massive "Apps" screen with lots of things that I don't want to see (e.g. if I want to uninstall a program I'll use Control Panel, I don't need it to be prominent on this screen) - hence I have to scroll across to find what I want!.

I can get the option to "Customise" but this seems to only gives me the option to "Pin-to-desktop".

I'm trying to avoid putting in 3rd Party Add-ons, but I think I might be tempted by a proper "Start-Menu" App! wink

Regards,
John
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 07:47:10
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: johnjburness] [link to this post]
 
It works a bit like the OS X launcher now. When you have the screen of applications just start typing the name of the one you want and it will hone in on it. It works very well once you are used to it (providing that you know what the application is called) and can be much quicker than the monolithic "All Prorams" menu interface.

The good thing with Windows is that if you can't get used to that way of working you can easily change it - would that the same were true for OS X.

Search is one of the big impRovements since Windows 7. It's not immediately obvious, but the Windows 8 search facilities are much better than previous versions. Unfortunately, many people seem to be hung up on appearance rather than function.
Standard User johnjburness
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 08:48:47
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
Many thanks for your advice - although your references to "OS X Launcher" go straight over my head (I assume that has something to do with Apple's incarnations, which I have NO knowledge of)!

Thanks, specifically, about the Apps-Page Search facility - I wasn't aware of that because there is NOT an obvious Search-Box (it only appears once you start typing)!

I would certainly put myself into the category of "Don't like the appearance", its harsh & garish, but I can live with that! Although if someone can tell me how to stop the border-colour of my Progs from changing (apparently because the desktop picture changes), I would appreciate the advice. If I want to view a changing colour background I'll look at the Desktop - within a Prog it is distinctly distracting!

It appears to me that the "Tile-Concept" (& a lot of the aspects underlying Win8.1) is geared towards some form of a Media-based "Playstation" - not for a serious/practical Home/Office Computer.

Probably because I am used to previous Windows, I don't find the new arrangement intuitive (the lack of an obvious Search-Box, on the Apps-Page, is an example of this)..

I seem to be spending a lot of time trying to figure things that I took for granted on previous incarnations &, other that "change for change sake", I can't understand why things are so much harder/obscure! Because of that my effective usage speed is considerably reduced.

An example:-
Under previous Windows, I've always used the Task-Bar to monitor/switch etc (which I find simple) whislt, under Win8.1, some (not all - hence it is inconsistent) obliterate the Task-bar, without providing a practical alternative. I'm left using the very old-fashioned Alt-Tab to switch between Progs (or "Apps" as we are apparently required to call them). Also the non-intuitive grab/drag/wait to shut down a prog!

I've tried looking for a decent Book, on Win8.1, that will give me the information on how I need to do something, in a way that I understand & am comfortable with, but they all seem to NOT cover a specific question that I'm looking for, but simply want to emphasise how to do things Microsoft's way (as a Media Centre)!

Regards,
John
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 28-Nov-13 11:39:59
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
That's the issue, knowing what the programme is called. There should be an option to have "Classic Menu" or something similar.

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Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 11:50:36
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
It's not exactly difficult to restore a classic Start Menu if that's what you want. Personally, I pin frequently used icons to the Desktop (mostly in folders) or Task Bar and I don't find it too difficult to vaguley remember what other programs are called. (You don't need to remember the exact name - if I want to find one of the three Prolog installation in my Windows 8 I just type "prolog"; I don't have to remember that they are called "Visual Prolog", "Strawberry Prolog", and "SWI Prolog".

As I said, that's the way it works in OS X and people seem to have managed with that for long enough.

Edited by AEP (Thu 28-Nov-13 12:03:06)

Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 12:04:20
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: MrTAToad2] [link to this post]
 
You're just sounding silly.

There are hundreds of improvements over Windows 7 (I could probably actually list a 100, if I could be bothered!) but you are just getting hung up on the fact the start menu has disappeared.

Check here though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_new_to_Windows_8

You need to deal with the fact the beloved start menu has gone - you can't have so many applications you are using anyway that can't be fit onto the first page of the start screen, and if you were a true power user you'd actually be typing in the applications you want to launch - which is even less steps in Windows 8 than it was in 7.

I spend <0.1% of the time on the PC actually using the start menu or start screen anyway, so why get so upset about it changing? It is ridiculous.

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 12:06:39
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
If you don't know what it is called how can you open it anyway? (OK I'll admit that is a bit flippant -- but If you right click and go "all apps" they are put into the categories like they were in the start menu anyway, no change!)

Next!

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 28-Nov-13 13:59:21
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
Why do so many people complain about the lack of things and changes if the OS is so good? Change for change sake is not always a good thing.

Just because Pipexer and AEP love 8.1 doesn't negate the fact that many users hate the system but have to use it.

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Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 15:53:11
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
No-one has to use Windows 8. There are plenty of alternatives. Use whatever suits you. But it does seem a bit silly to pick Windows 8 and then keep complaining about it.

Try OS X; try Linux (it's free!) or FreeBSD; stick with Windows 7. It seems perverse to use something you don't like.
Standard User johnjburness
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 17:07:43
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
No-one has to use Windows 8. There are plenty of alternatives. Use whatever suits you. But it does seem a bit silly to pick Windows 8 and then keep complaining about it.

Try OS X; try Linux (it's free!) or FreeBSD; stick with Windows 7. It seems perverse to use something you don't like.

2 things:-

a) Until you try it, you don't know! Obviously you have to take time to try it out & it is not always simple to revert back!

b) If you are buying a new PC/Laptop, sometimes you don't get a choice!

Regards,
John
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 17:11:27
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: johnjburness] [link to this post]
 
(a) that's why God invented Virtual Machines (ang imageing software).

(b) I've only once bought a PC with a pre-installed OS. I've changed it a few times - each time I image the hard disk so that I can revert if necessary (it never has been necessary).
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 17:48:22
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
Most of the changes in Windows 8 result in less mouse movement, clicks, and less steps needed to do tasks. This is a good thing, please provide some evidence contrary to this rather than something anecdotal.

Zen 8000 Pro
Standard User johnjburness
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 20:27:37
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
Most of the changes in Windows 8 result in less mouse movement, clicks, and less steps needed to do tasks. This is a good thing, please provide some evidence contrary to this rather than something anecdotal.

As I've already stated in another post, just trying to close a program seems non-intuitive & harder!

Obviously it depends on the program (some still have the "old-fashioned" arrangement of a an "X" in the top right hand corner) but to grab/drag/hold (until the shrunken program reverses) seems harder than a simple click!!

The Apps page doesn't allow me (or to be more precise, I haven't found a way of doing it) to edit it so only the relevant Apps display - this means I'm invariably having to scroll to look for my App (***).

The fact that some programs "obliterate" the Task-Bar means that I'm no longer able to simply click between Programs, but I have to do the Alt-Tab approach!

The other thing that is non-intuitive but, until I managed to kill it dead, when I tried to save a document to "My Documents" (as I had set in the default) it tried to save it to a "Documents" directory on the Skydrive - "losing" my document!

(***)
Thanks to AEP for pointing out that there is a "hidden" facility for searching for the App - I say hidden because, yet again, it is NOT intuitive that I would start typing into "thin-air" (as there is NOT a Search-Box present) & a Search-Box will magically appear!

Regards,
John
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 20:38:00
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: johnjburness] [link to this post]
 
TBH, I don't really think that any aspects of any OS are intuitive, although some are the same as in systems that we are already used to. Everything that I know about Windows 8 I discovered by reading articles online, and a little experimentation. I'm sure there is much that I have yet to discover.

I have the same experience with OS X Mavericks and Android 4.4 - so many new things to learn all at once. How exciting!
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 20:42:47
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: johnjburness] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by johnjburness:
Obviously it depends on the program (some still have the "old-fashioned" arrangement of a an "X" in the top right hand corner) but to grab/drag/hold (until the shrunken program reverses) seems harder than a simple click!!

Er yes because there is a difference between desktop apps and Modern UI apps!
In reply to a post by johnjburness:
The Apps page doesn't allow me (or to be more precise, I haven't found a way of doing it) to edit it so only the relevant Apps display - this means I'm invariably having to scroll to look for my App (***).

right click > unpin
click > drag the app around???
If you're on about the "All Apps" bit - if its frequently used, pin it to the main start screen!
In reply to a post by johnjburness:
The fact that some programs "obliterate" the Task-Bar means that I'm no longer able to simply click between Programs, but I have to do the Alt-Tab approach!

Then don't open the Modern UI apps! Nobody is forcing you to use them, they wern't there in Windows 7. Windows 8 does not force you to use any full screen apps!!


You have got to remember that these full screen apps are an offering, and you aren't forced to use any of them, they are a different experience and mainly designed at touchscreen and handheld devices. Don't confuse that with the OS, it's just those Apps. Windows 8 gives you a choice that is fully integrated with one another and fully maintains backwards-compatibility.

Zen 8000 Pro

Edited by Pipexer (Thu 28-Nov-13 20:44:56)

Standard User johnjburness
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 20:53:12
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
TBH, I don't really think that any aspects of any OS are intuitive, although some are the same as in systems that we are already used to. Everything that I know about Windows 8 I discovered by reading articles online, and a little experimentation. I'm sure there is much that I have yet to discover.

I have the same experience with OS X Mavericks and Android 4.4 - so many new things to learn all at once. How exciting!

OK, I'm glad you accept that aspect of my point!

Whilst I quite enjoy learning new things, that has to be "within-limits" as I have lots of other things to do - making me learn something different (with no obvious advantage/justification other than "its different") seems a frustrating & pointless exercise!

However, Pipexer was specifically suggesting that everything was easier/simpler requiring less clicks (or whatever) - I was just highlighting specific examples where it wasn't easier/simpler (aggravated by the fact that it is non-intuitive).

I've been using PCs since pre-windows days (including a stab at the ill-fated Windows 1), but I would suggest that this has been the hardest ever Windows to get to grips with!

I certainly don't recall a previous version where I've got so frustrated that I've been so ready to dump it & go back to an earlier version!

Regards,
John
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 21:06:06
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: johnjburness] [link to this post]
 
You're obviously doing things the wrong way - it only took me a day or two to get used to the way of thinking when using Windows 8.

The only thing you could possibly be opening in Modern UI mode is Internet Explorer - and the simple solution to that one is open it in Desktop mode. Then you never need to open a fullscreen app ever again! Surely learning the new start screen is within your limits!?

As for any other apps you are opening in full screen mode - simply don't open them and use a desktop equivalent, don't blame Windows 8 for giving you more choice.

Why don't you invest some time in learning many of the new features (you may like what options you are presented with if you right click the start button/corner, for example).

Zen 8000 Pro

Edited by Pipexer (Thu 28-Nov-13 21:11:37)

Standard User johnjburness
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 21:11:30
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
In reply to a post by johnjburness:
Obviously it depends on the program (some still have the "old-fashioned" arrangement of a an "X" in the top right hand corner) but to grab/drag/hold (until the shrunken program reverses) seems harder than a simple click!!

Er yes because there is a difference between desktop apps and Modern UI apps!

So are you saying that the Modern UI Apps are harder (as I've found out)? Don't this nullify your previous post?
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
In reply to a post by johnjburness:
The Apps page doesn't allow me (or to be more precise, I haven't found a way of doing it) to edit it so only the relevant Apps display - this means I'm invariably having to scroll to look for my App (***).

right click > unpin
click > drag the app around???
If you're on about the "All Apps" bit - if its frequently used, pin it to the main start screen!

I'm not aware of multiple Apps screens, just the one, plus the "Tiles" screen.

Incidentally, I tried your suggestion, but it didn't work & the choices on offer didn't match your comments!

In reply to a post by Pipexer:
In reply to a post by johnjburness:
The fact that some programs "obliterate" the Task-Bar means that I'm no longer able to simply click between Programs, but I have to do the Alt-Tab approach!

Then don't open the Modern UI apps! Nobody is forcing you to use them, they wern't there in Windows 7. Windows 8 does not force you to use any full screen apps!!


Sorry, I really don't understand what you are talking about!

Are you talking about Skydrive? Which I didn't want & it would not let me get rid of it (until I found a "dirty-way" to do it).

This was controlling that save facility in Word (which I've used the various variants since Ver 2), contrary to the Save-Defaults that I had set, or am I supposed to stop using Word!

They even took away such silly progs such as Free-Cell & you were expected to download the modern equivalent which is riddled with Adverts!

In reply to a post by Pipexer:
You have got to remember that these full screen apps are an offering, and you aren't forced to use any of them, they are a different experience and mainly designed at touchscreen and handheld devices. Don't confuse that with the OS, it's just those Apps. Windows 8 gives you a choice that is fully integrated with one another and fully maintains backwards-compatibility.

As I've said in another post, I haven't bought a quasi-Media-Centre but, or so I thought, I was buying a PC - but I certainly agree with you that it is designed for these quasi-media-centres!

Obviously the UI is not the same thing as the OS, but it is the Front-End to it & its flexibility/adaptability/usability is dictated by that Front-End!

I do note that, when I responded to your challenge with various examples, you haven't refuted any of it - only made a suggestion to stop using it!

Regards,
John
Standard User johnjburness
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 21:20:52
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
You're obviously doing things the wrong way - it only took me a day or two to get used to the way of thinking when using Windows 8.
I recognise that you are "wonderful"!

In reply to a post by Pipexer:
The only thing you could possibly be opening in Modern UI mode is Internet Explorer - and the simple solution to that one is open it in Desktop mode. Then you never need to open a fullscreen app ever again! Surely learning the new start screen is within your limits!?


So you are suggesting that I go through every Program that I might need & see if it obliterates everything? That seems a pointless exercise!
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
As for any other apps you are opening in full screen mode - simply don't open them and use a desktop equivalent, don't blame Windows 8 for giving you more choice.

So you are suggesting that I go through every Program that I might need & see if it obliterates everything? That seems a pointless exercise!

I really don't understand how you regard it forcing me to save to the Skydrive, when I've set the defaults to "My Documents" is giving me more choice??

As you have said, Win 8 is NOT designed for PC Work, but Media-Centre applications, which is giving less choice!
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
Why don't you invest some time in learning many of the new features (you may like what options you are presented with if you right click the start button/corner, for example).

I use the right-click, when I can found a relevant link there, but it is very restrictive.

Incidentally, pray tell how a Right-Click is much faster/simpler that the old left-click?

Regards,
John
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 21:39:40
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: johnjburness] [link to this post]
 
Right-clicking on the Start menu give access to a host of options that took three or four steps in Windows 7. Undoubtedly faster.
Standard User johnjburness
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 28-Nov-13 22:12:13
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
Right-clicking on the Start menu give access to a host of options that took three or four steps in Windows 7. Undoubtedly faster.

True, but just what are those options?

File Explorer - which I have on my Task-Bar.
Control Panel - which was a single click before (but I probably use less than once a week).
Run - which was a single click before (but I probably use less than once a month).
Shutdown - this is 2 clicks, as it was before
Search - tended to only use that within File Explorer or within Emails or within Browsers (***).
Task Manager is new (I used to use the "3-finger-salute"), but I'm only likely to really need that when I'm investigating PC problems.

Rest are subsets of Control Panel that I would only use on rare occasions.

Doesn't give any access to basic Programs, Browsers or Mail Clients that I'm likely to require frequently.

(***) have checked this out & it just seems to be an Internet Search (i.e. a Browser Search), but I couldn't get it to shutdown as per other Apps!

Regards,
John
Standard User ian72
(knowledge is power) Fri 29-Nov-13 08:47:46
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: johnjburness] [link to this post]
 
On win7 you could open task manager by right clicking on the task bar - you didn't need the 3 finger salute to do it.

Closing modern UI programs is odd - but Microsoft will tell you that you don't need to as they are designed to keep running and therefore are only closed in exceptional circumstances. And if you want to close a program quickly just use Alt-F4 (assuming you have a keyboard).

You can use normal desktop apps without using the modern UI. Pin things to the taskbar or shortcuts on desktop and it will be there ready for you.

I have a tablet with win 8.1 and have seen far more hangs/crashes than with win 8 but the interface is good on that. Got a laptop with win 8 and do find it less intuitive than the tablet but it is OK. Other 2 machines are still running win 7 as I decided not to bother to upgrade them - will wait to see what happens with win 9.

Win 8 is not as bad as many people think but it is not as good as Microsoft think. But I find OS X pretty unintuitive for a lot of things (been a while since I used it because I wasn't that keen and couldn't run the software I wanted at the time) - but who decided that ejecting a disk should be done by dragging it to the trash can - no-one would assume that was the right way without being told!
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Fri 29-Nov-13 10:18:16
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: MrTAToad2] [link to this post]
 
keeping 10 yr old hardware running / limping along because you don't like the monopoly OS offering in the otherwise competitive retail hardware sector is an unfortunate position to be in.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Fri 29-Nov-13 10:21:27
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
No-one has to use Windows 8. .... It seems perverse to use something you don't like.


A very large proportion of the population go into a retail outlet or online and buy what is on offer, they won't find Windows 7 in a shop.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 29-Nov-13 10:27:57
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Like most people, if I buy what's on offer it's because it does the job I want it to. Otherwise I wouldn't buy it.

Windows 7 is not the only alternative to Windows 8 - not even the only commercial one. If you go into PC World and buy a computer it doesn't have to run Windows 8. If you are even more sensible and go to somewhere like Novatech it doesn't even have to come with an OS installed.

But people happily buy Windows 8 computers - because they work for them.
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 29-Nov-13 14:47:04
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
Investing time! That's the whole issue.

Apart from the system booting quicker, the actual typing and doing the usual tasks takes the same time.

It's the starting and closing of the Apps/Programmes that's causes consternation!

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 29-Nov-13 14:55:53
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
That's all well and good for technically minded people but I would guess that the majority of computer users buy a machine with pre-installed software.

Nearly all computers have the OS pre-installed and surely 99% of windows is now 8 or 8.1

As other users of W8 (I'm not one) have stated that it is NOT intuitive.

Until W8 the previous versions of Windows were similar in their GUI and operations.

I would like to know how many pre W8 users found the switch easy. Haven't found any data so far.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 29-Nov-13 15:30:54
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
So why don't people buy Macs? They even sell them in PC World. You do have a choice.
Standard User ian72
(knowledge is power) Fri 29-Nov-13 15:57:32
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
Usually it's the price. Bottom of the range win 8 laptop for less than £300 - not many macs can compare at that level. Once you hit mac prices they become more of a comparitive choice but most people I know don't want to spend that much.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Fri 29-Nov-13 16:09:49
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
But people happily buy Windows 8 computers - because they work for them.


They buy them because they can't afford Apple and aren't given an alternative in a retail outlet. It's a forced "choice". That's why Windows versions disappear from sale when a new one is released - because given the choice a significant portion would buy the one they are familiar with ie the old one.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Fri 29-Nov-13 16:10:59
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
So why don't people buy Macs?


Very expensive.

Unfamiliar operating system with limited software choices. They choose not to buy something they don't understand or can't afford.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 29-Nov-13 16:11:08
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Well, yes. That's one reason that people prefer Windows to OS X. (The other reasons become apparent when they use the two. wink)
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 29-Nov-13 19:48:53
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
You seem very hung up on superficialities rather than the real improvements under the hood. Fair enough. Many people still think that Windows 95 was the best version of Windows.


Nah, 98Se was the best version of Windows. if that could run on modern machines with a bit of aa update to cope with more memory and multiple cores it would fly,

too much added on these days, one of the reasons why windows is not speedy. A lot of the software is the same, get faster machines but bulk up the application to make it run slower.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 8 pro 64bit, no dreaded metro and Linux , laptop by Linux

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 29-Nov-13 19:55:25
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
No-one has to use Windows 8. There are plenty of alternatives. Use whatever suits you. But it does seem a bit silly to pick Windows 8 and then keep complaining about it.

Try OS X; try Linux (it's free!) or FreeBSD; stick with Windows 7. It seems perverse to use something you don't like.


there are some good linux distros out there and for most people they will do a better job than windows, more secure, more stable and best of all cost nothing, not a bean and that includes most of the software.

It is not all hunky dory in Linux world, if you are into games, then there is a lack of them, but Steam is getting on board, there are still a few hardware problems, but very few and far between and there is still not a decent video editing software.
Ok, I will rephrase that, there is not a decent video editing software for me, but Kden live does come close.

OSx is nice, but there is one major problem, it comes on hardware made by one company and that hardware is expensive.

Amiga Os is still available and it will run on a Old Applui Mac mini G4.

I know a few people who have got a new PC and windows 8 is standard, so they have little choice unless they reformat and put another OS on.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 8 pro 64bit, no dreaded metro and Linux , laptop by Linux

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 29-Nov-13 20:10:18
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
You think it just takes "a bit of an update" to support multiple cores and large amounts of RAM? What about proper IP support, multimedia, modern graphics cards, SATA hard drives, SSDs, etc.? Just "a bit of an update" needed, I suppose.
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 29-Nov-13 20:13:40
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
They buy them because they can't afford Apple and aren't given an alternative in a retail outlet.
In other words, Windows machines are the most affordable and suitable computers for most people. I wouldn't disagree with that.
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 29-Nov-13 20:17:10
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Yes. I think we've agreed that most people choose Windows computers - Windows 8.1 nowadays - in preference to anything else. I don't believe the average man in the street gives a damn whether it's Windows 95, XP, Vista, 7, or 8. He just wants to know that he is buying the latest computer and the latest software; and he is, rightly, more than happy with that.
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 29-Nov-13 20:20:39
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
You think it just takes "a bit of an update" to support multiple cores and large amounts of RAM? What about proper IP support, multimedia, modern graphics cards, SATA hard drives, SSDs, etc.? Just "a bit of an update" needed, I suppose.


Ah, yeah, I forgot about them. smile

but you know what I am getting at, windows 98Se was fast on my old 500Mhz machine, so it would certainly be fast on new technology. I should try it in a virtual machine.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 8 pro 64bit, no dreaded metro and Linux , laptop by Linux

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 29-Nov-13 20:22:51
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AEP:
Yes. I think we've agreed that most people choose Windows computers - Windows 8.1 nowadays - in preference to anything else. I don't believe the average man in the street gives a damn whether it's Windows 95, XP, Vista, 7, or 8. He just wants to know that he is buying the latest computer and the latest software; and he is, rightly, more than happy with that.


Most people seems to be buying Tablets these days, not computers as such, yeah I know a tablet is a computer.


I still don't see what is so great about the things. i prefer a maachine with reall power, something a tablet don't have, or most laptops for that matter.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 8 pro 64bit, no dreaded metro and Linux , laptop by Linux

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 29-Nov-13 20:26:44
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
Adrian seriously that makes absolutely no sense, you are forgetting the tens of millions of lines of code that go into keeping an OS current and exploit modern hardware. If you put Windows 9x against Windows 8 on a modern PC (and somehow managed to get it to run) Windows 8 would wipe the floor with it in every sort of technical simulation you could do, even clicking the mouse around, Windows Vista/7/8 (8 especially - major under the hood improvements) is considerably smarter and quicker. It would be like me saying "I wish Windows could boot up as quick as the climate control panel on my car comes on when I turn the ignition key"..

Windows 8 is so smart even if you click faster than the <1 second Window animations (i.e., minimize and maximise), it still processes the click on what the end result would be after the animation had completed, just in case the user is truly powering through tasks. Try it, if you can even move the mouse that quick. You don't get that on OSX (no really, you don't). Therefore, Windows 98SE can't even beat it in that regard. Not only that, you can still even disable those Window animations too!

You probably underestimate how proud Microsoft developers are of their Desktop GUI and how seriously they take it.

Zen 8000 Pro

Edited by Pipexer (Fri 29-Nov-13 20:36:45)

Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 29-Nov-13 20:41:37
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
The truth is that I don't know what you mean. For starters you can't get those old versions of Windows to run on modern machines. And the average things that you do on a computer just crawled on old computers. You are making no allowance for the fact that you do so much more on a modern computer. Real-time virus checking - no, you didn't do that on Windows 98. Web pages - simple text with a few crude images; none of the multi-media animations, multiple frames, etc. that you take for granted nowadays. Want to try viewing a movie on one of those dinosaurs? OK if you are happy with 800x600 resolution I guess, but don't even think about HD. And you can forget multiple monitors.

Yes, modern computers haven't sped up to the extent that the hardware has increased. They don't need to; they are plenty fast enough. They don't do things that much faster, they just do so much more and they do it so much better. Would you like to try running a modern flight sim at HD resolution with all the effects turned on on your ancient computer? As long as you're happy with two or three frames per minute, no problem. You rightly expect much, much more from your modern computer than you were happy with when running Windows 98.

One thing where you really notice the speed increase is if you are developing software. Compiles that used to take the best part of a day on my Windows 98 era computer now complete in minutes. So it's not Windows 8 that makes your computer seem not much faster; it's just that you are doing so much more with it.
Standard User GeoffB
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 30-Nov-13 06:46:29
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
I used to enjoy the challenge of getting Win98Se to shut down properly. I learnt more about computers doing that than almost anything else. My father-in-law used an Amstrad with floppies until he died recently - he was happy with it and I agree that people often upgrade because they think they should. Just go by the moan factor with regards to 7 versus 8. Most people (ordinary users) loved 7 and are very iffy about 8 and 8.1. Says it all.

Dell Studio1558 with Win7 Home Premium
8GB RAM
IE10 and Live Mail
BT Infinity via HH3
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 30-Nov-13 15:14:30
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
But you don't have a choice as most PC's come pre-installed with Windows 8 and as you well know that MS have always had to play catch up with the Mac OS but have gone too far this time IMHO. As others have stated the Apple products are very stylish, well made and the buyer has to pay for the quality.

For those that like W8 that's all well and good but for those that dislike and even hate it, that is equally as good.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 30-Nov-13 15:32:15
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
You don't have to buy a new PC if your old one with Windows 7, XP, whatever is still working. None of this is forced on people. But many people want new PCs with new features and it's going to need new OSs to support them. Upgrading is not compulsory, particularly if you like what you've got.
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 30-Nov-13 16:02:58
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
You and AEP are no doubt right. it is easy to look back and see how well a Os worked using the hardware that was available at the the time, but as been said, we do a lot more on these things now.

Saying that, I am finding that Modern Operating systems, do seem to put more bloat that is not required.
Look at windows 8 where there is more integration with cloudy stuff, mainly sky drive.

i think looking at windows and the way it is going is the reason i am moving over to Linux.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 8 pro 64bit, no dreaded metro and Linux , laptop by Linux

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User Pipexer
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 30-Nov-13 18:26:55
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
Well I agree with you on the cloud stuff, luckily, we still have a choice not to use it (even though some say it is not so obvious to choose a local account..).

I would happily use Linux if I thought it was a better OS for my needs. If Windows ever forces me to put personal data in the cloud, then I will most likely be moving to Linux/UNIX too.

Zen 8000 Pro

Edited by Pipexer (Sat 30-Nov-13 18:27:26)

Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 01-Dec-13 11:48:51
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: Pipexer] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Pipexer:
Well I agree with you on the cloud stuff, luckily, we still have a choice not to use it (even though some say it is not so obvious to choose a local account..).


I done a complete reinstall of windows 8.1 a few days back as I wanted to move windows to the slower Seagate hybrid drive and put Linux on the faster SSD drive.

I thought while I was doing that I may as well install windows 8.1 instead of 8 as I have a ISO of it.

Because I did not have any network adaptor drivers I did not get all the nagging about having a windows account. but i havwe had it when installing 8.1 on other computers.


Really annoying it is, how long will it be before you can't even use windows without having a MS account? Don't say it will never happen.

I would happily use Linux if I thought it was a better OS for my needs. If Windows ever forces me to put personal data in the cloud, then I will most likely be moving to Linux/UNIX too.


It depends on what you do with your compute. It is only video editing that I find a pain in Linux, but saying that I am getting into Kdenlive. If you play games then Linux is not for you, but it is getting there.

I am typing this from W8.1 at the moment as I thought I better start putting some software on here like Vegas. and putting some decent security on here.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 8 pro 64bit, no dreaded metro and Linux , laptop by Linux

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User Banger
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 01-Dec-13 20:17:50
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: zyborg47] [link to this post]
 
How did you find the 8.1 install Adrian, did you have an 8 or 8.1 key, I found it most frustrating the 8.1 ISO not accepting my 8 key but later found a work around with a generic key published on TechNet.

Tim
www.vivaciti.net & freenetname
Billion 7800 on 24 Meg Variety LLU
My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 01-Dec-13 20:54:37
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: AEP] [link to this post]
 
But you said that people have a choice. Very limited choice, you've got to admit.

You like W8 and that's fair enough, lots of people have had to purchase a new computer and dislike the new OS but you and some others seem to get annoyed about that.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk
Standard User zyborg47
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 01-Dec-13 21:15:22
Print Post

Re: Window 8.1


[re: Banger] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Banger:
How did you find the 8.1 install Adrian, did you have an 8 or 8.1 key, I found it most frustrating the 8.1 ISO not accepting my 8 key but later found a work around with a generic key published on TechNet.


I used the infofrom this page to get the ISO.

I usedthis page to get the Generic key

once you installed windows 8.1, you need to enter your windows 8 key for it to be activated.

so a clean install.

Adrian

Desktop machine now powered by windows 8 pro 64bit, no dreaded metro and Linux , laptop by Linux

ALLPAY Wireless broadband
Standard User AEP
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 01-Dec-13 21:22:55
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Re: Window 8.1


[re: broadband66] [link to this post]
 
I'm not in the least annoyed that you dislike Windows 8. No more than you are annoyed that I like it.

I do find the need sometimes to put the record right when people spread disinformation about Windows 8, and I do enjoy pointing out to people how they can use it effectively.
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