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Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(committed) Tue 21-Mar-17 16:15:04
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Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


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Hi guys,

I've noticed there's been an increase in discussions about IPv6 across some forums. Should I start thinking about upgrading to IPv6?

Thanks!

William
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 21-Mar-17 16:27:13
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
To be honest until the web starts properly using it you won't really get anything out of it. The ISP needs to upgrade to IPv6 first really for you to get anywhere but even after that it is still more of the geeky realm of being able to hit a site with IPv6 - a site that almost certainly also exists as IPv4 at this point. There is virtually nothing at this point that cannot be accessed via IPv4.

So, if you want to and your ISP supports it then feel free to play. But, don't expect to get any real benefit out of doing so.
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(committed) Tue 21-Mar-17 16:32:47
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
AFAIK, BT supports IPv6, but I'm still connecting to my router through an IPv4 address, so I presume it or something else cannot support IPv6?


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Standard User micksharpe
(legend) Tue 21-Mar-17 17:02:10
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
I agree with Ian on this. If your router and ISP support, you might want to play around and see if you can access an IPv6 site, but no, there's no pressing need to use it right now.
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 22-Mar-17 08:33:16
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
What OS are you using? You might have IPv6 disabled for some reason. Also, BT do support it but I know they were doing a phased rollout and have no idea if that rollout has fully completed. Have you checked on the router to see what the status of IPv6 is at the network edge?
Standard User TinyMongomery
(knowledge is power) Wed 22-Mar-17 14:55:23
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
BT fibre certainly supports IPv6, but on an exchange-by-exchange basis. If you have the latest BT router, and your OS has IPv6 enabled, you will see it in due course.

==================================
Sovereignty really does mean sovereignty
Standard User iand
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 04-Apr-17 18:28:51
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
as others have said, your ISP router needs to support IPV6 first, then your home pc's. Win7/Win10 or Linux support IPv6. So does my HP printer.

Once the router started to use IPV6 on the LAN and then WAN, my pc uses IPv6 automatically first.

Use something like http://www.myipv6.org.uk/ to test

IanD
Standard User David_W
(knowledge is power) Wed 05-Apr-17 16:06:54
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: iand] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by iand:
Use something like http://www.myipv6.org.uk/ to test
That works - though I find ip6.me easier to remember.



ZeN Unlimited Fibre 2 with native IPv6
thinkbroadband speed test : speedtest.net : thinkbroadband quality monitor IPv4 IPv6
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 05-Apr-17 16:30:04
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
Or even this one. No need to remember anything wink.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 63790/13596Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User David_W
(knowledge is power) Wed 05-Apr-17 16:53:40
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by WilliamGrimsley:
I've noticed there's been an increase in discussions about IPv6 across some forums. Should I start thinking about upgrading to IPv6?
You've already had a lot of well considered answers. I wanted to take issue with your use of the term "upgrading". IPv6 is simply a alternative layer 3 protocol to IPv4; it's not inherently better, though it aims to address some of the deficiencies of IPv4, especially the small and essentially exhausted address space. The experience of watching a YouTube video is the same whether the traffic comes over IPv6 or IPv4.

Without deliberate steps to provide interworking that are not generally applicable, IPv6 and IPv4 do not interconnect, so you cannot access an IPv4 server from an IPv6 host and vice versa. This is not currently a significant issue for general Internet use, as there are only a handful of servers that a typical UK Internet user would encounter that are IPv6 only - mostly services that have been deliberately provisioned as IPv6 only such as RevK's Loops Of Zen (which is currently responding to me over IPv6 with a HTTP 403 forbidden error). However, as we get deeper into IPv4 exhaustion, there will be an increasing number of scenarios that cannot be handled with IPv4 - in particular endpoints served using CG NAT cannot accept any inbound connections. If you need to access a corporate VPN server or mail server that is IPv6 only, you need IPv6 connectivity.

At the moment, IPv6 is more a concern for server operators, who should be working towards ensuring all their services are on the IPv6 Internet if they are not already there. It will become increasingly common for end users to have no IPv4 connectivity, though this is not likely for those using a UK consumer Internet connection in the near future. IPv6 support differs amongst the major companies; Google and Facebook have strong IPv6 support whereas Amazon still has a way to go (especially with AWS).

I would argue that the time has arrived when consumer Internet access should include IPv6, not least as a recognition that IPv6 support in consumer laptops, tablets and phones is now mature and IPv6 will be the future of the Internet. Indeed, many networked printers now have good quality IPv6 support. The only way to start eliminating the huge technical debt connected with IPv4 is to transition to IPv6. Unfortunately, there is a huge population of IPv4 only devices that are still useful - many if not most of the connected devices you can buy today, other than computers, tablets and phones, are still IPv4 only.

Unless you have a pressing need for IPv6 connectivity today, such as developing and testing software that must work with IPv6 Internet endpoints, it is not essential to have IPv6 today. However, it is worth deploying IPv6 when you can. Make sure you know how to turn IPv6 off on your router in case you hit problems when IPv6 is on.



ZeN Unlimited Fibre 2 with native IPv6
thinkbroadband speed test : speedtest.net : thinkbroadband quality monitor IPv4 IPv6
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(committed) Wed 05-Apr-17 17:45:24
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
Thanks very much for the replies. AFAIK, the Billion BiPAC 8800AXL does support IPv6, so I guess everything will move over/switch when appropriate.

Sync: 35133/7900 Kbps.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 05-Apr-17 18:06:43
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
The ways ISPs use IPv6 differ, as it's a very different animal from IPv4. Your router will almost certainly need configuring, to a greater or lesser degree.

The Billion 8800NL R2 certainly does.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 63790/13596Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(committed) Wed 05-Apr-17 18:09:24
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
So, do we now expect everyone to have to start configuring their devices? I'm slightly confused as to how this all works.

Sync: 35133/7900 Kbps.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 05-Apr-17 18:46:47
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
You shouldn't need to if you take an ISP-supplied one, as they are generally pre-configured.

No different in principle from how it is with IPv4 really, but more complex. No doubt ISPs that expect you to use other kit will supply the necessary info just as they do now. And don't, if they wish to discourage you from doing so.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 63790/13596Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(committed) Wed 05-Apr-17 19:12:48
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Fair enough. What is there to configure on a Billion BiPAC 8800AXL? IPv6 seems like a waste of time to me, why can't we just stick with IPv4!

Sync: 35133/7900 Kbps.

Edited by WilliamGrimsley (Wed 05-Apr-17 19:13:01)

Standard User David_W
(knowledge is power) Wed 05-Apr-17 19:50:37
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by WilliamGrimsley:
Fair enough. What is there to configure on a Billion BiPAC 8800AXL? IPv6 seems like a waste of time to me, why can't we just stick with IPv4!
The main reason is that the IPv4 address pool is exhausted - the registries have handed out all the address blocks, so once an entity has used up all its allocated addresses, it either has to go to the marketplace to try to secure transfer of address space from others (which is only a short term solution) or deploy NAT and hand out private address space to customers (so-called Carrier Grade NAT). Some IPv4 protocols that work well through a local NAT (in your router) do not cope with two layers of NAT - router NAT on top of CG NAT.

CG NAT has been the norm on mobile networks for years, because there isn't the address space to hand out public IP addresses to all the mobile devices. We are beginning to see CG NAT on consumer broadband - Plusnet have run a trial, and Hyperoptic are now forcing many of their customers onto CG NAT unless they pay an extra monthly charge for a single static IPv4 address (presumably because, as a relatively late entrant, Hyperoptic have a relatively small IPv4 address pool).

There are other advantages to IPv6 than a larger addressing space. The larger address space means NAT isn't normally used, making firewall configuration more straightforward as you don't have to worry about internal <--> external address mapping (there are some IPv6 usage cases, such as failover, that use NPt - mapping a prefix to another prefix). Inefficient broadcasts have been done away with; IPv6's multicast handles all the situations that used broadcasts on IPv4. Routing tables are typically smaller than with IPv4 because the address space isn't sliced up into so many small blocks, making life easier for routing protocols and routers. Most devices can auto-configure on an IPv6 network if allowed to do so.

There is a degree of implementation pain with IPv6, especially when it comes to deploying it to home routers, but things have got better over time, in no small part thanks to work focusing on standards like TR-187. The biggest problem at the moment is perceived lack of consumer demand; IPv6 deployment and especially technical support has a non-zero costs for ISPs, who have so far received relatively few requests for it.

However, the move to IPv6 is eventually unstoppable. IPv4 will become increasingly constraining as the Internet continues to grow, and once IPv6 service provision is mature, the way will be open to eliminate cost and complexity by starting the process of decommissioning IPv4 on the Internet.

If you want to ignore IPv6 for now, do so - you really aren't missing out on much. However, you cannot ignore IPv6 forever.



ZeN Unlimited Fibre 2 with native IPv6
thinkbroadband speed test : speedtest.net : thinkbroadband quality monitor IPv4 IPv6
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 06-Apr-17 10:59:46
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
If you want to ignore IPv6 for now, do so - you really aren't missing out on much. However, you cannot ignore IPv6 forever.


Indeed. The industry itself still isn't properly geared up for IPv6. Until they are then home use of it is largely academic rather than life changing.
Standard User Oliver341
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 06-Apr-17 11:28:38
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by David_W:
There is a degree of implementation pain with IPv6, especially when it comes to deploying it to home routers, but things have got better over time, in no small part thanks to work focusing on standards like TR-187.

But no thanks to companies like Netgear who do not support BT's IPv6 implementation: https://community.netgear.com/t5/DSL-Modems-Routers/...

Sky utilise prefix delegation too, making IPv6-enabled Netgear routers largely useless for IPv6 usage in the UK.

Oliver.
Standard User David_W
(knowledge is power) Thu 06-Apr-17 12:54:25
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: Oliver341] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Oliver341:
But no thanks to companies like Netgear who do not support BT's IPv6 implementation: https://community.netgear.com/t5/DSL-Modems-Routers/...

Sky utilise prefix delegation too, making IPv6-enabled Netgear routers largely useless for IPv6 usage in the UK.
Netgear's response is pathetic. DHCP-PD is the TR-187 standard way of handing out prefixes for local networks and support of DHCP-PD is mandatory under TR-187 (pretty much the de-facto standard for IPv6 over PPP) - see TR-187 section 6.1 paragraph R-10.

Unfortunately the firmware quality even of premium segment consumer routers is often awful. Things would be a lot better if routers were based on well tested open-source distributions such as OpenWRT and pfSense (the latter still being immature on ARM and possibly being too heavyweight for a typical home router, though it is excellent - I use it here). However, that wouldn't give the marketing advantages from brand and product differentiation that the big players want - they want a router they can promote as better than anything else on the market even though, at their heart, many of these devices are embedded Linux machines.

Most consumers will never notice if the IPv6 functionality is broken as few will miss IPv6 at the moment. By the time they notice, the chances are that their router will have stopped receiving any firmware updates. The support lifecycle of consumer products is depressingly low, not least because vendors selling to the retail market care very little once they have your money. Devices sold on long term contracts to ISPs stand a better chance of being fixed, but this is not always the case - especially with the relatively limited clout of a small tech-savvy ISP. AAISP seem to have struggled to get ZyXEL to fix IPv6 related bugs in the ZyXEL routers AAISP sell.

Getting IPv6 support right on a consumer router is not easy, especially because of the multiplicity of IPv6 presentations for IPoE (as used by Sky and cable providers). I did quite a bit of IPv6 debugging and improvement on pfSense on the late 2.2 and early 2.3 versions. Other third parties have carried on this good work, not least by fixing bugs and improving the features of the DHCPv6 and DHCP-PD client daemon used by pfSense. The pfSense core team have continued to support and improve IPv6 functionality.

Personally, I prefer a multi-box solution, using a separate VDSL2 bridge (Huawei HG612), router (a rack mount PC running pfSense), switch (ZyXEL GS1920-48HP) and Wi-Fi (HP MSM460). This allows me to select the components most suited to my environment and to choose a router I can debug and fix myself. I've got a decade of experience with FreeBSD and used to be a software engineer working for a networking company. This is not a typical home network, but we are not typical home users - our setup here is more typical of a small business and is used for business purposes.



ZeN Unlimited Fibre 2 with native IPv6
thinkbroadband speed test : speedtest.net : thinkbroadband quality monitor IPv4 IPv6
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 06-Apr-17 13:02:00
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by David_W:
Personally, I prefer a multi-box solution, using a separate VDSL2 bridge (Huawei HG612), ....
Now a very under-performing modem component, and most of those available getting long in the tooth for a cheap commodity item.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 63790/13596Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User David_W
(knowledge is power) Thu 06-Apr-17 13:31:26
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by David_W:
Personally, I prefer a multi-box solution, using a separate VDSL2 bridge (Huawei HG612), ....
Now a very under-performing modem component, and most of those available getting long in the tooth for a cheap commodity item.
Agreed - but as I'm syncing at 79999/19999 with SNR margin of 10.8/14.6 dB, my HG612 is giving me the maximum speed possible on Openreach FTTC with margin to spare.

Personally I would gain nothing by spending money on another VDSL2 bridge, also I'm unclear which of the options available today supports baby jumbo frames on the Ethernet side. I use pfSense's RFC 4638 support to allow me to have a WAN MTU of 1500, so baby jumbo support is essential (as the PPPoE overhead means I'm using frames of up to 1508 bytes on the Ethernet side).

I have a spare HG612 in case my primary one fails. I know modern chipsets will likely perform better than the HG612 and newer capacitors are never a bad thing, but see no reason to replace the HG612 in this setup.



ZeN Unlimited Fibre 2 with native IPv6
thinkbroadband speed test : speedtest.net : thinkbroadband quality monitor IPv4 IPv6
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(committed) Thu 06-Apr-17 16:37:45
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
My word, are you knowledgeable or what?! You've already lost me! tongue

Sync: 40225/7660 Kbps.

Edited by WilliamGrimsley (Thu 06-Apr-17 16:37:55)

Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sun 09-Apr-17 03:17:10
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Re: Do I Need To Upgrade To IPv6?


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
excellent post

My setup is

billion 8800nl in bridge mode as modem
pfsense NUC unit as firewall/router
asus ac68 as wireless access point and a switch
I also have the samknows unit in my living room as another switch (also does samknows testing).

All in one units are conveniant and overall lower cost, but they are inferior otherwise.

I also feel out of all the open source solutions pfsense is the one most well developed, ddwrt seems to have a 100 different forks, openwrt I have never used but I think requires decent knowledge of linux to use properly, tomato usb has a nice interface but has some annoying flaws and very limited hardware support, asuswrt is ok but as I found out prior to my move to pfsense it has its own issues and again will only work on asus hardware.

Its not just software either, the hardware side of things is pretty low spec when you look at the cost outlay, my pfsense unit has many multiples more of computing power vs my ac68, and likewise 16x the ram as well. The NUC unit runs at under 45C (might hit high 40s in summer) passively cooled vs over 80C (in summer) for the ac68 passively cooled.

Regarding ipv6, surprise surprise asus implentation is problematic on sky (likely also on BT), it will work, but in its out of the box code it will not preserve prefixes on a disconnection, as again surprise surprise it is not RFC compliant. The fork of asuswrt developed by merlin has aimed to fix this but only was partially fixed. Also the ipv6 code in asuswrt for a while was very volatile as asus seemed to be experimenting on that part of the code.

To actually get ipv6 to function on pfsense, its just adjusting one or two settings, that on its own it will work for all devices on the lan, but a few additional settings are needed to preserve prefixes and also to allocate an ipv6 address to the router itself.

On asuswrt its a couple of settings to enable ipv6, this will also allocate an ipv6 to the router, however due to bad code design, if you adjust ipv6 settings on asuswrt the entire router has to be rebooted which is pretty annoying.

Sky Fibre Pro BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
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