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Standard User kijoma
(member) Sat 22-Oct-11 20:19:32
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Re: October news from Vfast


[re: wirelesspacman] [link to this post]
 
hi Peter,

not to forget that i hear the 2 Mbps spec is symmetric too smile , kind of rules out ADSL, ADSL2 and only allows ADSL2+ if you live on the exchange. Conveniently FTTC fits, inconveniently so does wireless.

/rant on blush

BDUK have the (our) money to spend and the easiest way to spend 100's of Millions is with the Big Telco's , Value for money rarely comes into the equation it seems.

Its good to see Vfast now have representation on TB tho, something Kijoma have been requesting for 6 years+ . the problem is we need to supply post codes of all our coverage areas which i feel doesn't help as of course if there is demand in an area we do not cover that makes commercial sense then it soon becomes a covered area. So why the restriction, let people countrywide explore the options.

We added two coverage areas recently for example as we had sufficient demand from people "out of area" to warrant the relevant infrastructure.

The fixed line guys do not have the pleasure of that flexibility.

One comment we received recently when costing a service for an area was "why should you need funding?" and from that they made the incorrect assumption that the company didn't have the money to do it alone! . Meanwhile BT, a multi billion multinational goes cap in hand as soon as it sees something that is vaguely non profitable to do.

I want to know why the Broadband industry is treated unlike any other. The whole "competition" bleet baffles logic and common sense.. competition comes automatically if there is a business case to do it..

Example: Kijoma supply 16 Mbps/24 Mbps services to a particular group of villages in West Sussex and have done for over 6 years. The MP Jeremy Hunt was quoted as saying at the broadband summit in West Sussex in May that he "was concerned at the lack of competition in this area" (areas covered by Kijoma).

To follow this the now former chairman of the parish council in question stated the same thing and has been trying hard to get the disguised monopoly installed (market 1 ADSL exchange) for the last 6 years or so via public funding / pressure on BT. He also realises they are a monopoly but a preferable one it seems.

WSCC have not changed their written view (in response to questions i raised with them) that this area and others covered by a Kijoma service are to them still "notspots" and have fraudulently (in my view) duped BDUK with this view so as to maximise funding that would otherwise be reduced if it recognised that three main "notspots" in the county have not been notspots for approaching 7 years. these are three out of the four exchange areas in England without viable ADSL.

There of course is competition, as Peter stated there is satellite and there are the mobile providers (albeit only 2G round that area) etc... If these providers are failing to provide an attractive service then who is to blame?

Because there is an excellent service being provided at competitive pricing the various "public servants" are doing their best to fund competition there as if it the current service is a disease that must be cured. where does state aid law come in here?

If this was say applied to village shops and pubs then you can easily see the madness of it all. Oh there is only one pub and one shop in the area, they have a monopoly so the Gov should fund a large chain pub and a tesco express to be built so the local pub/shop have competition and the residents have "choice"..

Those businesses would otherwise not have a cost effective business model for those locations without that funding.

stupid as it sounds (to me) that is what the policy seems to be with broadband. Local providers must be replaced by the big guys at all costs. Even if it results in an inferior service.

Wholesale provision is not real competition. It means there is one main beneficiary who the rest all pay, it encourages "stack em high,sell em cheap" services that have the bare minimum of capacity. Wholesale ISP's have to pay per mbit/sec from the wholesale network as well as the costs for bandwidth their end out to the internet. So to ride the price war that results from everybody selling the same end point they will buy the minimum so as to return what little profit they can make. result is poor speeds, standstill peak times and crippling traffic shaping to try and hide the deficiency.

/rant off smile

Bill Lewis - MD
Kijoma Broadband - (Division of Kijoma Solutions Ltd)
Fixed wireless ISP - ISPA/CISAS/RIPE members
http://www.kijoma.net
My Broadband Speed Test
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Sat 22-Oct-11 22:51:40
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Re: October news from Vfast


[re: kijoma] [link to this post]
 
Please stop saying that you have competition with Satellite and mobile broadband.

VFast and Kijoma are very expensive services compared to ADSL/Cable and this is due to the fact you do literally have no competition.

Satellite is far too expensive and access times, latency and upload speed are all abismal, Mobile is expensive, patchy and has other problems.

I also find it frustrating that you complain constantly about representation on TB, you're a very small outfit and unfortunately you've listed the exact reasons why you can't be listed, rather than complain in public constantly, may I suggest that you contact the administrators of the website.

Long term, fibre and other in the ground solutions will always be the best value for money as they have almost no issues once they are placed and have much higher capacity. It makes much more sense to lay thousands of miles of cabling than to use microwave or radio links.

The big telcos should be forced to lay fibre to the places that are currently forced to use wireless and satellite links, I agree that the money should go to these companies as they have the resources and capability to cover everyone, I do agree with you though that they aren't covering the outlying areas sufficiently.

I have lived in areas serviced by SoBroadband and then later VFast, as well as areas covered by good ADSL and a Virgin area. I can honestly say that compared to a decent ADSL supplier and compared to Virgin, VFast customer support is really good, but unfortunately their service is just not able to compete, the wired services are more cost effective, often come with perks and don't suffer from sporadic massive lag, low download speeds and huge latency, these problems very rarely occur on my wired services but were a daily/weekly occurance on SoBroadband/Vfast. Sorry if it sounds bad, but it's true that my experience has shown wired solutions to be better.
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Sat 22-Oct-11 22:54:21
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Re: October news from Vfast


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
Oh and I forgot that I find it INCREDIBLY frustrating that you, Kijoma, have usage limits.

I really can't see any reason why other than rampant profiteering - when I lived in Sweden it was unheard of to get a limit on your internet, even when it's a wireless service or a mobile service.

Frustrating when you are a monopoly!


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Standard User darrenorbital
(learned) Sat 22-Oct-11 23:55:34
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Re: October news from Vfast


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
Hello Anonymous,

It would be great if you could identify yourself so i can look into these issues you have on a daily / weekly basis as to the best of my knowledge, we dont have a single customer with ongoing problems, in fact it makes me question if you actually are / were a customer at all.

On another note, the following comment is really not true

"VFast and Kijoma are very expensive services compared to ADSL/Cable and this is due to the fact you do literally have no competition."

Our 15mbit service is £24.99 inc vat per month, a phoneline rental from a telco is ~£14 per month making our broadband ~£11 per month in comparison for speeds far superior to what is available from others. I dont think that is really much more expensive if you really think about it. Our service can also provide a geographic telephone number or you can port your existing one so in theory, both products can be directly compared !

If you are a customer, please identify yourself so we can help you as you often post these comments but we are yet to get a call / support ticket.

Many Thanks
Darren
Administrator seb
(founder) Sun 23-Oct-11 00:36:31
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Re: October news from Vfast


[re: kijoma] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kijoma:
Its good to see Vfast now have representation on TB tho, something Kijoma have been requesting for 6 years+ . the problem is we need to supply post codes of all our coverage areas which i feel doesn't help as of course if there is demand in an area we do not cover that makes commercial sense then it soon becomes a covered area. So why the restriction, let people countrywide explore the options.


Looking at this from a user experience point of view, the vast majority of users will want a list of ISPs that they can buy services from, not a list of companies they could contact and possibly persuade to enable their area. It may be in your interest, but I don't believe it's in the average user's interest. This is why we ask for postcode information. Tracking potential demand is something we've talked to various parties about more generally, but it's a different activity from helping users who are looking for broadband now.

It's worth adding, that if we have that data, until we can filter it for users in a better way, you'd appear on the main ISP list anyway.


seb

Sebastien Lahtinen
Co-Founder,
thinkbroadband.com
[email protected]

personal blog - blog.seb.me.uk
twitter - @sebtweet
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User smurf46
(member) Sun 23-Oct-11 08:09:30
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Re: October news from Vfast


[re: seb] [link to this post]
 
We're back in la la land where it's xDSL or Fixed Wireless. No it isn't. Comprehensive superfast coverage needs both (and satellite).

It's why I asked the WISPs how many customers you cover in an exchange area, which is how nationally we classify broadband coverage over the whole country. It enables everyone to look at their area on the same basis make comparisons and for the national authorities to do so; not a different basis for each operator that makes things look most favourable for them. The simple fact is that xDSL provides (almost) national coverage; I asked to try and find out if any WISP could demonstrate that they provide coverage in a similar way to almost all customers in any exchange area. No-one claimed to do so: I wonder why?

I have a WISP service so I know how competitive, consistently good and reliable it can be for the individual customer. But the difference is marginal over a good xDSL connection of similar capacity (and in my experience unless you have an atrocious line - and most people don't - the difference is mainly due to backhaul issues where BTW have a few, with their much bigger and heavily used network).

It's the same argument that appears all over these forums: should broadband policy be directed for the benefit of the majority or the few who feel they are further left behind. It's the same as everything, democracy is about trying to spread the jam as widely as possible, and the majority are going to be served first and rightly so.

Try to imagine you are a politician, who faced by an elector is asked: "why did you waste my money giving it to that WISP who can't serve me (or costs me more than BT-based services) when if BT had improved lines to my cab I'd have got a fast service and at a cheaper price and higher allowance?" Yes, it really matters. You can't succeed as a politician, no more than as a businessman, by telling your customers/electorate they're all wrong.

Some WISP projects are grant aided:(and not just in Kent) so it isn't anti-WISP bias. Perhaps carry on reading . . .

We see things not as they are, but as we are .
- Anais Nin

Edited by smurf46 (Sun 23-Oct-11 08:19:53)

Anonymous
(Unregistered)Sun 23-Oct-11 08:53:34
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Re: October news from Vfast


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
The reason you cannot see any other reason is obviously because you don't have a clue how an ISP works ! Bandwidth is not free, it costs per mbit per month for global transit, on average I would say £10 per mbit, therefore, if you constantly use say 10mbit, that's £100 per month plust circuit costs before we even start looking at profit hence contention and the balancing act wisps perform on a daily basis to enable rural users to have fast broadband.

Perhaps that will help you understand a little better !
Standard User wirelesspacman
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 23-Oct-11 10:20:22
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Re: October news from Vfast


[re: kijoma] [link to this post]
 
Hi Bill,

New one on me that the 2 Mbps spec is symmetric. Have you got a link for that by chance?

/rant on

I read through the state aid rules a few months back and it is 100% clear that the provision of state aid for "normal" broadband in areas that already have it is ILLEGAL.

Satellite is now available essentially right across Blighty at 2Mbps and above - and at reasonable costs. Yes the usage allowances are pretty low compared to terrestrial broadband, but they are still fine for surfing/emails etc - just not suitable for regular streaming with iPlayer etc.

For instance: the Tooway 6 Mbps down (1 Mbps up) service is now on offer for £19.99 per month. Having two (satellite) players up there can only help to keep the prices down, and perhaps even lower them further (and/or increase usage allowances). I refuse to accept that this is expensive (in the sense of a lot of money per month). Yes it is more than a terrestrial service but so what? State Aid is not there to simply drive down prices in a competitive market.

With "superfast", the State Aid rules are more blurred - particularly as the Aid is there to provision a service before "normal" market forces would tend to deliver it. BDUK take the view that only massive, incumbent style, operators can possibly deliver on the deal and so have deliberately skewed the procurement process to favour them. It really is old socialist style thinking at work!

The farce of the whole process is that they are taking so so so long to finally "justify" doing (aka get the courage to do) what in my view they have wanted to do all along (just hand over the whole amount to BT) that (a) they are delaying the very market forces they are supposed to be encouraging (why should BT put FTTC into rural areas on its own when it knows that by holding back it can get given a massive bung to do it later on) and (b) they are making locals wary of going for alternative solutions (that do not require state aid) in case they miss out on getting FTTC from BT later on.

/rant off

Peter

Loop Scorpio Ltd
Ledbury; Highnam; Newent; Painswick; Arlingham, Cranham
===============================================

Symmetric Pro
Now also offering 20 Mbps symmetric broadband!
Standard User New_Londoner
(member) Sun 23-Oct-11 11:02:16
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Re: October news from Vfast


[re: wirelesspacman] [link to this post]
 
I read through the state aid rules a few months back and it is 100% clear that the provision of state aid for "normal" broadband in areas that already have it is ILLEGAL.

Suggest you read the text closely - IIRC it matters whether the available services have wholesale options to allow for retail competition, and also the pricing compared to the wider market. I don't believe wholesale options are available from satellite or most (all?) of the fixed wireless operators?

---

All opinions expressed by me are my own

BT Infinity
Speedtest result (excluding 2Mbps for BT Vision)
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Sun 23-Oct-11 12:41:31
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Re: October news from Vfast


[re: darrenorbital] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by darrenorbital:
Hello Anonymous,

It would be great if you could identify yourself so i can look into these issues you have on a daily / weekly basis as to the best of my knowledge, we dont have a single customer with ongoing problems, in fact it makes me question if you actually are / were a customer at all.

On another note, the following comment is really not true

"VFast and Kijoma are very expensive services compared to ADSL/Cable and this is due to the fact you do literally have no competition."

Our 15mbit service is £24.99 inc vat per month, a phoneline rental from a telco is ~£14 per month making our broadband ~£11 per month in comparison for speeds far superior to what is available from others. I dont think that is really much more expensive if you really think about it. Our service can also provide a geographic telephone number or you can port your existing one so in theory, both products can be directly compared !

If you are a customer, please identify yourself so we can help you as you often post these comments but we are yet to get a call / support ticket.

Many Thanks
Darren


I have not used your service for a year now.
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