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Anonymous
(Unregistered)Fri 09-Mar-12 14:14:15
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What next for WISPs


[link to this post]
 
With the ever expanding rollout of FTTX what will WISPs be doing to keep in check?

One very narrow minded example would be headline speeds. Fttc will be seeing limits increased and cabled areas are being upgraded.

I would much prefer a capable network be in place before any increased speeds are considered. Also prices for wisps are in some instances at a premium compared to current Fttc/cable.

Hope this generates a little discussion in this forum.
Standard User slimj
(member) Fri 09-Mar-12 18:05:03
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
Faster speeds is the obvious one. I'd be more than happy with a 50mbit connection but I don't feel the need for speeds much faster than this at the moment. I currently have around 15-20mbit of bandwidth through VFast which is sufficient for downloads, gaming, and HD TV viewing between a few of us.

Reliability and low latency is probably the major thing though, if you can maintain the high speeds with low latency at the busiest times then I think WISPs are doing a good job. Improvements in wireless technology should also ensure speeds and reliability improve in time.

I think VFast are doing a great job at the moment. Yes I have had problems with the service but they do get fixed and thankfully the problems are few and far between. I think us folk living out in the sticks also have to bear in mind that we're using WISPs as we don't have any other choice for high speed internet - ADSL is slow and unreliable while FTTC is not likely to happen in our village (Manston) in the next few years!

VFast Wireless Broadband.
My Broadband Speed Test
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Fri 09-Mar-12 19:47:25
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: slimj] [link to this post]
 
Why do they need to do any more?

Customers may want faster speeds, higher reliability and lower prices but a vast majority of WISPs cover people who have the option of the WISP (at a premium, with questionable reliability and really high prices), [censored] ADSL Max or 3g (if they get it).

They have as close to a monopoly as they can legally get and can offer whatever the hell they like and still people will be forced to use them.

Logically they could lay fibre themselves and use the inferior wireless products for the last mile and I believe this is what some of them are doing/have planned - this is in my opinion the best option for them.

Geoffrey England


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Standard User Michael_Chare
(committed) Sun 11-Mar-12 00:13:11
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Anonymous:
With the ever expanding rollout of FTTX what will WISPs be doing to keep in check?

I suspect that they can't compete and will therefore go broke. There was a local WISP not far from where I live. They now no longer exist propably because BT changed their policy and tried to connect everyone rather than rejecting customers where the signal loss was large.

Michael Chare
Standard User smurf46
(member) Sun 11-Mar-12 09:29:19
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
Fixed wireless technology is improving too, and so is backhaul access. It's always filled gaps in the market - and the digital divide is as wide as ever, and probably widening. No currently available UK residential broadband technology gives you an absolute guarantee of your throughput speed as far as I'm aware - on all of them some people do much better than others - so there is always a gap to fill because of technological or geographical limitations, and the nature of the market is that people change providers regularly, and providers come and go. It was ever so.

I suspect that with the high level of publicity and forthcoming events most WISPs will be reporting a higher level of activity than ever. Whether it will continue into the longer term, who knows? You'll get a different answer from everyone, that is the nature of a local market.

We see things not as they are, but as we are .
- Anais Nin
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Sun 11-Mar-12 20:50:28
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
I disagree that WISP's need keeping in check.

After all they are offering higher speeds at comparable prices to ADSL services that don't deliver on their promise.

Headline speeds is one way to measure but it is not the best way. A better measure is average real throughput, off-peak and on-peak. What really matters is if things work as expected. For example can a customer stream iPlayer/netflix etc in HD on-peak? As long as the answer is yes than the service is working well and meeting the needs of most people.

Wireless is already capable of ~100Mbps headline and soon much more will be possible when 802.11ac products come to market. In reality as the capacity is shared between all users connecting to an AP it is not wise to advertise this maximum or even allow one customer to pull the total capacity.

I think in time WISP's will either start to roll out FTTH or get Fibre/ptp microwave to all masts and will continue to provide competitive services where BT/VM have no broadband capable network. This will happen in areas where they have the market share and BT/VM can't get a meaningful hold on the market.

The biggest competitors are likely to be mobile phone companies but they will deploy their networks to rural areas last.
Standard User darrenorbital
(learned) Mon 12-Mar-12 22:46:16
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
I disagree (for obvious reasons) . I feel that WISP's can compete, many of our customers are in Towns and Cities that already have FTTX, the service we offer can easily compete and as you will be aware, FTTC is still distance related to get decent speeds.

I think the price point is dependant alot on if the customer actually needs a landline at home, if they are happy to rely on a mobile phone and use voip for a landline then often a wisp package is cheaper.

We have trialed speeds upto 100mbit and it worked, with the new generation of wireless equipment that will be released soon, it will be a reality to deploy.

These days, with most new core repeater sites we install fibre backhaul and as such it is only the last mile thats actually wireless, if we were to play on words like certain other ISP's , we are providing "Fibre Optic Broadband" although we all know thats not the case hence we dont say it.

Regards
Darren
Standard User slimj
(member) Tue 13-Mar-12 11:50:15
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: darrenorbital] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by darrenorbital:
We have trialed speeds upto 100mbit and it worked, with the new generation of wireless equipment that will be released soon, it will be a reality to deploy.


This is interesting Darren, would this be a case of re-rolling out new equipment to each household again like when everyone was moved from the old 'So Broadband' network to the new Airmax gear?

From a logisitical point of view I can imagine you'd prefer to just roll out firmware updates that will allow for the faster speeds. With more users than ever on VFast I can imagine a rollout of new equipment would take a fair amount of time! smile

VFast Wireless Broadband.
My Broadband Speed Test

Edited by slimj (Tue 13-Mar-12 11:51:00)

Anonymous
(Unregistered)Tue 13-Mar-12 12:47:20
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: slimj] [link to this post]
 
The Nanostation Ms people have on VFast will support 100mbps, but the current Ubiquiti wireless links can't support much higher - so until there's better tech for the bit after the CPE it will be unviable.

A year or so ago my VFast connection was not limited and I was getting 80mbps in both directions, though often it'd "only" be 20-40. Even with the much higher speeds, you'd still have the same occasional problems where there would be abnormally high pings and bandwidth died for a day or so, but I suppose you must consider this technology is, I was going to say in it's infancy, but it's not, it's just less desirable to spend money on researching when fibre is seen as a more permanent solution.

I'd like to say my experience with VFast has been overall good, but honestly the amount of problems i've had over the years is an order of magnitude higher than the problems I would have had if I did not live in Kent and had access to decent ADSL/FTTx.

The price is still an issue - trying to explain to thrifty elderly relatives that it's good value for money when they can get much slower (due to their rural location) Sky or BT and get a bunch of extra stuff thrown in for the same money is very difficult.

How do you explain to someone that they should pay the VFast price + landline rental + TV when they could just get the entire thing through one supplier for less and with less hassle? Well I can tell you from experience that it's a very difficult thing to do.

The fact there's no usage limits is nice, though some of my neighbours and friends have had their bandwidth throttled because they were effecting other customers. This would probably not needed to have happened if the wireless links could handle more traffic though.

Ideally I would like to see these WISPs expand their fibre networks, running fibre to backhauls and links is absolutely the best thing to do right now, but considering how desperate some Kent residents are for reliable quality internet - why not approach farmers about supplying FTTH? You'd avoid the huge costs of road digging and would realistically be able to lay dual gigabit fibre cables to each premises without too much cost.

Why would you do that?

Whilst the initial outlay would be higher, you would be able to offer a truly unique service which wouldn't be subject to the inherent problems of the wireless last mile. The fibre would stay there and not need to be re blown unless something catastrophic happens like the cable being broken and you would even be able to resell the fibre if you so wish.

In summary;

Of the WISPs I know of, prices across the board are high, reliability isn't great and you don't get any of the added benefits you get with a conventional supplier. Upsides are that you are probably capable of higher speeds than the conventional things availiable to you. A while back when VFast was bad for all of our area for a month or so, we chipped in and one of us tried to get a BT connection to see if there was an alternative, but the connection couldn't sync, so we had to stay with VFast. Luckily things aren't so bad anymore, but I still would like the option of going elsewhere - competition might spur VFast on to provide a better service (and i'm not talking about headline speed, i'm talking about being able to deliver multiple people using the headline speed in an area).
Standard User smurf46
(member) Tue 13-Mar-12 13:42:53
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
I get you've personally had an unhappy experience but there's a couple of other things I don't understand:
1. Why "should" the thrifty (or those with perhaps more sense than money) pay for a service they don't need or everything be at the same bargain basement price? It sounds like an old-fashioned (failed) socialism to me. If the mass market meets their needs or they're prepared to put up with it, then what's wrong with that?
2. DiY FTTP is exactly what the PIC B4RN are doing in the north. If it's so darned easy as you make it sound, then get on with it with your mates and the co-operative local landowners. You don't need to sit back and wait for a commercial company with all their overheads to do it for you - or if you insist there's BT.

I'm with one of those "poor relation" WISPs on a legacy product (with FTTC on my landline now too). Any you know what: the contended WISP service allows me to do everything I use the FTTC for, and it's more consistently reliable in uptime as it doesn't use the BTw backhaul, and gives me consistently higher upload speeds at a not-unusual 600m from the cab. The latency is about the same too. Yep I've had problems in the past and I got pretty frustrated, but with patience and quiet prodding it came good, and as I don't own and control my own ISP, I don't realistically think I could expect better. ADSL never came good on my line, and I could never get to the bottom of it, not that my ISP didn't try.

We see things not as they are, but as we are .
- Anais Nin
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Tue 13-Mar-12 14:25:48
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
Nice and confrontational there!

I don't understand what is wrong with expecting things to be priced at a reasonable level?

Why should those thrifty people or people with too much money than sense pay for a WISP? They shouldn't. It just doesn't make any sense for them to do so, this is what i'm saying - all WISPs are more expensive for what you get than a similarly priced ADSL/cable service. The only reason they can get away with it is because of a lack of competition and people who are for some reason loyal to them.

DIY FTTH works for those lot because they're all wealthy, what about the people who work day in day out for a pittance and don't have a few thousand laying around to invest in such a project? Commercial ISPs exist to provide a service for consumers like myself to buy, I don't see that any other solution than cabling will give the reliability, speed and low running costs that the future requires for a growing ISP - contention is a really big problem with these products.

You say "or there's BT". Come on now don't be silly, BT is a large semi-public company which isn't agile enough to think of things like approaching farmers to avoid roadworks, their overheads are monstrous and it's simply not commercially viable for them to cable anywhere outside of a reasonably sized town. This problem is compounded by the fact that because it's so tightly regulated it is forced to sell its network usage at unfavourable rates to people who undercut BT on their end user service.

It sounds like you live in one of those infamous "50mbps headline speed but only a 100mbps backhaul" cabled areas. You probably live in a rural area where big companies who are cabling things in predict a small demand and cut costs.

When our area was out for tender there was literally no one other than VFast interested - i'm very glad they are there and if you'd read my post you'll see on the whole i'm happy with the service I receive, but I know that if I were in a proper cabled area I would not be paying £25 a month for VFast on top of my BT line rental and Sky TV. No one in my family is interested in gaming, so we don't need high upload, we just browse websites, stream things and use Skype/MSN messenger to contact friends and family abroad. I care only that the service is always there, always reliable and priced reasonably.
Standard User wirelesspacman
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 13-Mar-12 22:37:55
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
"all WISPs are more expensive for what you get"

Really?

Our entry level price is £9.50 per month and does not need a land line. Try matching that with adsl - the land line itself costs more.

Peter

Loop Scorpio Ltd
Ledbury; Highnam; Newent; Painswick; Arlingham, Cranham
===============================================

Symmetric Pro
Now also offering 20 Mbps symmetric broadband!
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Wed 14-Mar-12 00:10:15
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: wirelesspacman] [link to this post]
 
Plusnet offer 6,49 a month, with larger usage limits and potentially higher speeds than your service whilst also offering weekend and evening calls. Yes you have to pay line rental but who doesn't...?
Standard User kijoma
(committed) Wed 14-Mar-12 08:54:48
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Anonymous:
Plusnet offer 6,49 a month, with larger usage limits and potentially higher speeds than your service whilst also offering weekend and evening calls. Yes you have to pay line rental but who doesn't...?


I have read the messages here from Darren , Smurf and "anonymous" with interest.

I am at a loss as to why some people pour such distain on innovative solutions to Broadband in areas the big guys have little or no interest in.

Plusnet (BT) offering £6.49 broadband with the caveat you refer to of "Yes you have to pay line rental but who doesn't...?" is invariably not cheaper than a WiSP. regardless of the "free" weekend calls.

When you say "who doesn't" , as if everybody MUST have a BT line you are revealing , to me at least, a very narrow mindset with a strong "BT must provide" undertone. BT are a commercial company like any other and if they decide it isn't viable to pipe in "£6.49" broadband to you then who is to blame?

If you paid say £30 a month to Plusnet then they may have a business model again. But as mooted by others, people like you want some form of socialist Broadband system. BT (openreach) will no doubt gain the majority of the public money BDUK are throwing about as they are viewed pretty much as a government organisation, as it was back in the days of the GPO.

Once this money is spent, and you still don't have FTTC or FTTP , then you will of experienced what happens when genuine competition is stifled in favour of a disguised monopoly.

I know Darren mentioned VoIP, many of our customers use VoIP exclusively, we do for our "lines" and i personally have not had a BT line at my property for over 7 years. Nobody "MUST" have a BT line at all, the only people that would imply this would be BT themselves and the many misguided public officials who have been told similar.

I too can provide an example, our Lowest tariff (16Mbps/2Mbps/5GB) costs £13.99 a month inc VAT , if a customer migrates to VoIP then the £14.60 a month line rental vanishes. All their calls to other people using VoIP will be free and call costs to regular numbers are low and without excessive minimum call charges.

So to use your "6.49" example

Cost of service :-

Kijoma - Home light £13.99
Telehpone via VoIP - no line rental

Total fixed monthly Outlay £13.99


Plusnet £6.49
Line Rental £14.60

Total fixed monthly outlay £21.09

Would the people you refer to grumble at having to pay less than their current line rental for Broadband AND phone?

Unlike BT/Plusnet etc.., companies like Vfast and Kijoma have made a business model that works in areas such as yours, all without the benefit of scale of the larger companies and often without a level playing field.

Instead of grumbling anonymously about the fact you don't have "choice" and have to use Vfast, how about being thankful that a commercial provider has made a business case that you benefit from? At the same time treat all the BT FTTC/FTTP hype with extreme caution. BT continue to behave like a spoilt baby that can only be pacified by public funding. It is not like they are a multi billion international organisation after all?!?

I think a lot of local authorities, and Kent may be an exception here, are very keen to pacify BT and give money over without question or consideration for more cost effective and viable solutions. BT do not seem to be culpable under State Aid rules it seems.

The result, you could end up in BDUK's 10% with the required 2 Mbps. The spoilt child would of laid waste to a viable business model for a WiSP in your area by targetting WiSP customers with loss leader rates and the bundled stuff you speak so fondly of. All paid for out of Tax payers revenues..

So in summary, be careful for what you wish for. Be grateful for what you have.

Bill Lewis - MD
Kijoma Broadband - (Division of Kijoma Solutions Ltd)
Fixed wireless ISP - ISPA/CISAS/RIPE members
http://www.kijoma.net
My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User kijoma
(committed) Wed 14-Mar-12 09:05:25
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: slimj] [link to this post]
 
on a point of interest here, Kijoma has replaced its network three times in the 7 years of commercial service. We are the first WiSP to use the new tech that came out in 2009. and the First in the UK to use the 5 GHz band exclusively.

It does involve re-installing end customer equipment in order to benefit from the performance and this cost is borne entirely by us in order to continue to be able to increase capacity, speeds offered and increased customer levels.

This is what commercial companies do if they wish to keep up to date and remain competitive. Even if they do have over 1000 customers on a network to migrate!.

As Darren mentions, the technology for wireless is fast developing and is a long way ahead of the old and defunkt wifi mesh junk that sadly dirtied the water for "wireless access" in the first half of this century. It is also a long way ahead of the much praised WiMAX of yesteryear too.



In reply to a post by slimj:
In reply to a post by darrenorbital:
We have trialed speeds upto 100mbit and it worked, with the new generation of wireless equipment that will be released soon, it will be a reality to deploy.


This is interesting Darren, would this be a case of re-rolling out new equipment to each household again like when everyone was moved from the old 'So Broadband' network to the new Airmax gear?

From a logisitical point of view I can imagine you'd prefer to just roll out firmware updates that will allow for the faster speeds. With more users than ever on VFast I can imagine a rollout of new equipment would take a fair amount of time! smile


Bill Lewis - MD
Kijoma Broadband - (Division of Kijoma Solutions Ltd)
Fixed wireless ISP - ISPA/CISAS/RIPE members
http://www.kijoma.net
My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User vfast_tim
(newbie) Wed 14-Mar-12 19:48:44
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
Hi Anonymous

In funded areas you (and others in all funded areas) are able to select our low cost package, Vlite. This is £17.99 per month for a 2Mbps download and 0.5Mbps upload with 15GB usage per month. We find that this package is perfect for users that do web browsing, e-mail and more. Only thing that won't work is HD video streaming which not everyone wants to do anyway.

It is your choice to keep your BT line, it's not needed for our broadband to work, unlike ADSL.

We can supply a local number on a VoIP line for £5 per month (inc £5 call credit) with a one-off cost of £80 for a DECT cordless VoIP phone. Calls are cheaper than on a standard land line.

It is your choice to keep paying Murdoch (BSkyB) for your TV, you could have Freesat or Freeview for nothing or ~£20 one-off to get a set-top box if your TV doesn't support either.

So in reality a customer on Vfast would be paying less than a customer with a BT phone line, ADSL broadband and Sky TV service. Please do the sums before saying something that is not true.

Fixed Wireless Broadband has proved to be a very effective way to provide service to large areas at good prices with quick deployment. This is not possible with FTTH. In rural and even some urban areas FTTC just isn't cost effective or even the best option and will take many years to reach those that 'need' it the most.

Using farmers land for running FTTH ducting is not as simple as some suggest. Planning and Way Leaves are still required and this is a very lengthy process. It can work if one farmer owns all the land in one village but it soon gets complicated as this will not be the case.

A while back when VFast was bad for all of our area for a month or so, we chipped in and one of us tried to get a BT connection to see if there was an alternative, but the connection couldn't sync, so we had to stay with VFast.
So there's a reason we are providing a service, it seems no one else is able to, yet you still complain on a public forum without identifying who you are. Perhaps you'd be kind enough to report any issue with the service to the support team and we can investigate and resolve this for you.

Kind Regards,

Tim Higgs
Vfast internet | Technical Support
0845 121 1257 | support (at) vfast.co.uk | twitter: @vfast_net
Standard User vfast_tim
(newbie) Wed 14-Mar-12 20:23:53
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: slimj] [link to this post]
 
Hi slimj
...would this be a case of re-rolling out new equipment to each household again like when everyone was moved from the old 'So Broadband' network to the new Airmax gear?
Yes, although this should be a simple transition as I expect the new kit to be backward compatible with current gen. The repeater sites would be upgraded then each customers as/when they require a higher speed until eventually everyone has been upgraded.

logistically it's not difficult to do. Changing the antenna on a customers property takes about 30 minutes or less. We'd do this in batches, area by area or in-between new installs.

Kind Regards,

Tim Higgs
Vfast internet | Technical Support
0845 121 1257 | support (at) vfast.co.uk | twitter: @vfast_net
Standard User Yaz
(experienced) Thu 15-Mar-12 01:46:34
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: vfast_tim] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by vfast_tim:
Hi slimj
...would this be a case of re-rolling out new equipment to each household again like when everyone was moved from the old 'So Broadband' network to the new Airmax gear?
Yes, although this should be a simple transition as I expect the new kit to be backward compatible with current gen. The repeater sites would be upgraded then each customers as/when they require a higher speed until eventually everyone has been upgraded.

logistically it's not difficult to do. Changing the antenna on a customers property takes about 30 minutes or less. We'd do this in batches, area by area or in-between new installs.

Kind Regards,


Evening/morning Tim.

If there are any trials for any new kit being rolled out, put me down on the list laugh

I won't chip into the thread any further for now but will add my 2p later on.

vFast Ltd
Downstream ~24336.33 kbit/s - ~2970.74 KB/s
Upstream ~10224.86 kbit/s - ~1248.15 KB/s
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Thu 15-Mar-12 03:07:14
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
I'm more than happy with Vfast the service has only been interrupted twice since I've switched to them (2 years) . I was kind of worried from reading other peoples experiences that there may be some down time here and there before I signed up.

If there was anything I'd think that needs improving it's speed and that's from a purely selfish (always wanting more) attitude I have as I'm getting 20 down and over 8 upload as it is. I wouldn't mind 50 down and 20 upload just so I can do things even faster tongue most services like Virgin have just doubled people's speeds and those on the 100mb services in cities are just getting upload speeds I already get with vfast (all be it their download speeds are almost 5x mine) it all depends what you use the service for.

I upload Videos/Work data that is upwards of 20-25GB a day at times. And the service is good enough to get these files uploading within a 6-7 hour time frame (as opposed to impossible on my old adsl line) I simply wouldn't be able to be self employed without Vfast which I've now used for almost 2 years.

I'd like the upload speed increased but I understand I may be a unique case compared to 99% of the people they provide for. If and when they can I hope they focus on upload speeds more than download as I'd imagine it's a less intensive upgrade on the service they provide, 20mb upload anyone ? or am I being too greedy.


I've rambled on but needless to say vfast have been excellent as far as I'm concerned.

So Vfast please upgrade the service asap for your more selfish clientele thanks
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Thu 15-Mar-12 03:30:35
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: kijoma] [link to this post]
 
Absolutely spot on, word for word.

3G is capable of 11Mbps+ down here, and 2Mbps+ up.

Still pretty slow for modern broadband, but it's usable. We've used it for 4 years after we upgraded from ADSL and got shot of the landline.

In those days it only performed at 2.7Mbps, nearly twice as fast as ADSL down a 3.6km (aliminimum?) line. It has been upgraded since then and now isn't far off basic cable performance. A provider has actually got off their backside and invested money. Their own money.

It's cheaper than ADSL and VOIP works fine.

Competition raises standards, which is why BT are so keen to get their hands on BDUK money to keep any semblance of same locked out.
Standard User slimj
(member) Thu 15-Mar-12 09:22:49
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: vfast_tim] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the response Tim.

Looking forward to hearing about the upgrades in the future then! smile As Yaz say's, if you need any trialists I'm happy to help also.

Cheers
James

VFast Wireless Broadband.
My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User smurf46
(member) Thu 15-Mar-12 10:01:07
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
OK, time for a bit more controversy. I get fed up with meaningless mantras like "competition is good", "all I can eat", "fastest" and "cheapest". Time to get out of the kindergarden. Nothing wrong with liking cheap, but if we want to swap slogans then "you get what you pay for" is one to bear in mind too.

You're trying it on in running a business on a residential connection, but often you can get away with it (and I've done so too) but you might not get what you want and/or might mess it up for others too by hogging your connection. But i don't have sympathy (and nor I suspect do others) for the resultant moaning. Many WISPs offer a business option.

VOIP is great and better than analogue (which is obsolete tech), I have both. But the English are addicted to their "rosy" past, and you can always think of an excuse (like what happens when I need to make an emergency call in a power cut or I won't cross the road this morning because I might get run over), and I've even read some on forums claim their bodies can detect fixed wireless signals in a locality! Sometimes they're even abducted by aliens (well it's as good an explanation as any).

Much fixed line broadband is limited by or affected by faults on the infrastructure, which are the devil to deal with, and BT simply don't maintain the local loop (not wickedness but economics), they do piecemeal repairs. What first attracted me to fixed wireless was it bypasses all that dodgy stuff, the air is a fantastic transmission medium, not fault prone neither does it need repair, and the network architecture is often much simpler.It's as close to WYSIWYG broadband as you can get, short of full FTTP. Not to mention that a cable modem is a much simpler and reliable piece of kit than a modem/router, and it's no coincidence that BT use separate kit at last for fibre-based services. Contention can be an issue, but I can equally as well argue that is the fault of the extreme hoggers rather than the network, and the same can be true of fixed networks. That said, I've not noticed any such problems, but then most people are reasonable. Do any of you follow the lengthy performance sagas on all varieities of DSL which afflict this forum?

Since the cable operators stopped their roll-out I'd suggest that all the competition has done nothing to improve the infrastructure. In my locality you can have BT-based 20CN or 21CN, LLU, cheap or expensive ISPs and you'll still get a max 4Meg ADSL. Improvement comes through BT's commercial decisions on technological deployment, same as for the WISP's then.

So, even though I've FTTC now on the landline, BT still need to give me an acceptable speed range of 12-37Mbps - no faults are accepted below the min, and yes it does achieve the max but also regularly runs at the min. And some of the cheaper providers throttle downloads to or below the min anyway, so BT's best can be no better than my fixed wireless service. And the fact that at best a download on FTTC which I can do in 10 minutes might take 25 minutes on the fixed wireless, well that's a real downer isn't it: NO. I'd hit the FTTC download limit well before it became a practical problem.

Still if we want to discuss broadband in terms of a comic book, it doesn't matter does it?

We see things not as they are, but as we are .
- Anais Nin

Edited by smurf46 (Thu 15-Mar-12 10:49:07)

Anonymous
(Unregistered)Thu 15-Mar-12 12:39:22
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Anonymous:
I'm more than happy with Vfast the service has only been interrupted twice since I've switched to them (2 years) . I was kind of worried from reading other peoples experiences that there may be some down time here and there before I signed up.

If there was anything I'd think that needs improving it's speed and that's from a purely selfish (always wanting more) attitude I have as I'm getting 20 down and over 8 upload as it is. I wouldn't mind 50 down and 20 upload just so I can do things even faster tongue most services like Virgin have just doubled people's speeds and those on the 100mb services in cities are just getting upload speeds I already get with vfast (all be it their download speeds are almost 5x mine) it all depends what you use the service for.

I upload Videos/Work data that is upwards of 20-25GB a day at times. And the service is good enough to get these files uploading within a 6-7 hour time frame (as opposed to impossible on my old adsl line) I simply wouldn't be able to be self employed without Vfast which I've now used for almost 2 years.

I'd like the upload speed increased but I understand I may be a unique case compared to 99% of the people they provide for. If and when they can I hope they focus on upload speeds more than download as I'd imagine it's a less intensive upgrade on the service they provide, 20mb upload anyone ? or am I being too greedy.


I've rambled on but needless to say vfast have been excellent as far as I'm concerned.

So Vfast please upgrade the service asap for your more selfish clientele thanks


You, mate, are taking the [censored]. I hope you're not the cause of problems for other people (I suspect you are).

You're running a business on a residential connection which from what I recall is against the T&C of the connection.

I sincerely hope you're disconnected as that volume of traffic "daily" will definitely be disrupting other users.
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Thu 15-Mar-12 19:23:14
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
What a pleasant person you must be in real life. I upload in the off peak hours (11am-5am) as recommended to me, I don't run a traditional business, I earn revenue from my online work and expertise which Vfast helps me to accomplish. Whether or not I was earning revenue from my work I'd still be producing/uploading the content I provide the fact I do doesn't change anything it could just as easily be called a hobby (what I'm doing)

I said 20-25GB at times (depends how much content I've produced and how big the files are) it's usually around 8-10GB) but regardless all of it is uploaded/processed in the off-peak times as recommended to me. It's usually a 3 hour upload job most days so most likely doesn't affect anyone, it it did (after 2 years with them) something would have been done.

Nice assumptions though it's not like they're serving 1000's of residential customers and dozens possibly hundreds of businesses. They'll have bandwidth tenfold of what I'd ever take up even if I uploaded all day.

Thankfully Vfast don't share the same point of view.

If I was downloading torrents/uploading illegal content or whatever else I could understand you having a problem with my activity the fact I upload off-peak should cause very little issue for anyone else on the service especially with the times I access the upload speeds at full throttle.
Standard User vfast_tim
(newbie) Thu 15-Mar-12 21:45:07
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
Hi Anonymous #2

There is a grey line between home working and running a business from home.

I think a lot of people work from home on occasion these days. Nothing wrong with that on a residential connection. However running a full-time business out of your home on a residential connection would be a breach of our terms.

10GB upload off-peak is not a problem, so long as not every day.

An upload at 1Mbps continuously for 24 hours would be more of a problem, still ~10GB in a day, but it's how and when it's done that could be a problem, not so much about the amount.

Kind Regards,

Tim Higgs
Vfast internet | Technical Support
0845 121 1257 | support (at) vfast.co.uk | twitter: @vfast_net
Standard User vfast_tim
(newbie) Thu 15-Mar-12 21:46:57
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: slimj] [link to this post]
 
Hi slimj and Yaz

I'm sure you'll be the first to know when we have something new to trial smile.

Kind Regards,

Tim Higgs
Vfast internet | Technical Support
0845 121 1257 | support (at) vfast.co.uk | twitter: @vfast_net
Standard User darrenorbital
(learned) Thu 15-Mar-12 21:55:30
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
HI Guys,

Not really sure where this thread is heading now, the simple fact is we strive to provide the best possible service to our customers (in the thousands) and I feel we do a good job. It can be disheartening when the minority (Mr Anonymous) feel that by being the only provider in an area is holding them to randsom. The simple fact is that unless we invested the money in providing an area with poor or no connectivity, there would be no service at all, as such surely we are doing a good thing ?

Some area's we have done have been funded by KCC, I can tell you that the real cost of rolling out these areas is far more than the funding recieved and we invest heavily ourselves. The monthly costs we charge are nothing to do with having a monopoly but are set at a level at which we can provide real techies on the end of the phone, provide 24hour network fault teams and also make money to stay in Business. Costs are often reviewed and may well come down in the future with economy of scale.

I would rather someone not be a customer than feel that they are "forced" to use our service.

All in all, i really believe that the majority of our customers appreciate the hard work we put into building and constantly improving our network and do not feel trapped into using us.

Best Regards
Darren
Standard User kijoma
(committed) Fri 16-Mar-12 09:45:18
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: darrenorbital] [link to this post]
 
Hi,

I couldn't agree with Darren more on this "ransom" claim.

We have had people and even Parish councils via their chairman ordering their parishioners NOT to take up our service as we are a "monopoly" . They will then spend years trying to get a BT service at great expense, even though as a market 1 exchange area, BT are also a clear monopoly.

If we say "you can use a mobile dongle", they moan it is too slow or flaky. Is that our fault?, nope it is the mobile providers.. If we suggest satellite then it is the "too expensive" and "slow" argument.. Again none of this is a failure of Kijoma .

It seems some people are not happy to have a commercial service provider invest in their area if it is "not BT". To amplify this District and County Councils promote BT as the solution (even down to direct email/flyer adverts for BT infinity ,a retail product, from councillors).

Some campaigners in certain areas have even gone as far as to fabricate stories about wireless and lie to people and Council officials in order to prevent household/businesses from signing up to our service. Why? , well it will reduce the number of people in need of Broadband and reduce the weight of their campaign for Fibre and the potential for gaining funds to give to guess who...

Fortunately most people get fed up with being told to wait and eventually sign up for service and are super happy with the service they get. Even if they could of had it 3-4 years ago had the public servants served them instead of pointlessly pursuing a commercial company (BT) who have declared over and over again that it is not viable for them to do.

Vfast do have an advantage in that KCC acknowledge their existence and work with them. Makes me wish we had started in Kent and not Sussex over 7 years ago smile . Although i am sure Darren wouldn't agree tongue

cheers

Bill Lewis - MD
Kijoma Broadband - (Division of Kijoma Solutions Ltd)
Fixed wireless ISP - ISPA/CISAS/RIPE members
http://www.kijoma.net
My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User smurf46
(member) Fri 16-Mar-12 10:07:06
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: kijoma] [link to this post]
 
Local WISPs do a darned good job on the whole and their services are competitive with BT's best (which isn't often achieved). That's my experience.

But slagging people off (even if justified) does no credit and creates an unprofessional image which damages any business. In my opinion. Perhaps see NextGenUs (news) for the evidence.

We see things not as they are, but as we are .
- Anais Nin
Standard User slimj
(member) Fri 16-Mar-12 12:51:01
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: darrenorbital] [link to this post]
 
I also agree with Darren.

I fail to see the Monopoly argument. If you don't want a decent high speed service then stick with BT with your connection drop outs and slow speeds. I also think many people want a great service for nothing, which just isn't possible. I think £25 per month is a fair price for the basic package.

When the KCC funding was announced for our village there were (as far as I remember) 2 businesses bidding, VFast and Call Flow Solutions, the best business (and perhaps as they were already operating in our village) got the funding. Take up in our village looks good too.

Wireless is a great alternative for those of us not in an area where ADSL (or Fibre) coverage is available as BT simply cannot warrant the costs of connecting our villages to a high speed service. Without VFast I would still be stuck on a 0.5Mbps flaky service which is no good to me, instead I've been surfing at speeds of up to 50Mbps! I don't see BT offering me that service any time soon?!?

James

VFast Wireless Broadband.
My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User Yaz
(experienced) Sat 17-Mar-12 04:57:25
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: slimj] [link to this post]
 
+1 with Darren and SlimJ

Nobody has forced me to take up VFast.

I'm very happy to be with a company that has provided me with a brilliant customer service and, on the whole, a brilliant service.

There are always going to be people who are going to ignore those companies unknown to them, afraid to change, or just plain stuck in a rut with the big boys (BT, Talktalk, Sky). If they fail to see beyond that then sometimes they deserve to have their slow connections.

I always mention VFast to friends and family if they are looking to get a better service. Unfortunately a most are afraid of change (loosing existing ISP email accounts, bundled packages etc.) or in a few cases have not been able to get a service through no line of sight.

vFast Ltd
Downstream ~24336.33 kbit/s - ~2970.74 KB/s
Upstream ~10224.86 kbit/s - ~1248.15 KB/s
Standard User Yaz
(experienced) Sat 17-Mar-12 04:58:37
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: vfast_tim] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by vfast_tim:
Hi slimj and Yaz

I'm sure you'll be the first to know when we have something new to trial smile.

Kind Regards,


Cheers Tim!

vFast Ltd
Downstream ~24336.33 kbit/s - ~2970.74 KB/s
Upstream ~10224.86 kbit/s - ~1248.15 KB/s
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Sun 18-Mar-12 04:36:57
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: Yaz] [link to this post]
 
.
Standard User WFarren
(newbie) Wed 21-Mar-12 01:00:51
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
I'm personally glad to see WISPs investing in laying fibre to local areas and then using Wireless for the last mile. It's the most logical and cost effective way of strengthening their networks.

In the future though i'd like to see the WISPs become just more flexible ISPs, willing to use whatever viable connection methods they can to provide to the areas that currently have no viable alternative, be that microwave, 801.11ac, copper, fibre, whatever. There is a proven market for this as they have demonstrated.

As for the cost and whether or not they have a monopoly; removing the emotional element that some of the gutless anonymous people have brought to the table, I do think the prices of WISPs are higher than they could be, VFast, who I use, are actually quite well priced and throughout the many years i've been with them my speeds have increased almost bi-yearly.

At the moment I feel that 24/10 being the best package availiable doesn't quite justify the £36.99 a month and I feel that 15/2 for £24.99 a month doesn't provide enough upload (yes I am well aware that most ADSL connections have 256kbps-512kbps upload, but why does wireless have to be asyncronous, genuinely would like to know if there's a technical limitation as to why), unfortunately there's no mid point between them.

It may not be technically possible to realistically provide these speeds to people but I would like to see VFast offer a 100/100 connection for £42.49 (this is still more expensive than Scandinavia and the Netherlands), a 50/20 connection for £34.99, a 20/5 for £24.99 and a budget 10/1 for £14.99, all with unmetered bandwidth. I feel that these tariffs would be able to strongly compete with not only the ADSL Max/3g that most of the areas served are limited to, but also the very best fibre connections around.

This may not be possible to deliver with current tech and individuals would probably be very easily able to adversely effect the rest of the people around them, but with new tech around the corner this is probably possible.

It'd certainly show that the WISP industry is able to truly compete with the big boys and if people were actually able to consistently get those speeds at those prices, it would definitely dispel any notion that these WISPs provide an inferior service to traditional cabled solutions.

Hopefully these companies are able to retain the "local" feeling with support staff having local knowledge and an intimate connection with their network, rather than just having a call centre with little to know actual influence or attachment to the ntwork.
Standard User slimj
(member) Sat 24-Mar-12 21:27:36
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: vfast_tim] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by vfast_tim:
Hi slimj and Yaz

I'm sure you'll be the first to know when we have something new to trial smile.

Kind Regards,


Thanks Tim.

Is this the new tech being talked about but not available in the UK for a while? http://www.ubnt.com/airfiber

Damn, 1.4Gbps would be pretty incredible for wireless! (price per unit looks equally incredible, lol!).

VFast Wireless Broadband.
My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User vfast_tim
(newbie) Sat 24-Mar-12 22:02:50
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: slimj] [link to this post]
 
Hi Slimj

Yes, this was only launched on Friday!

airFiber (that should be airFibre for the UK market wink) is for point-to-point backhaul, not customer connections. Still if/when we can make use of them it'll mean significantly increased capacity at remote (non-fibre) pops.

Just goes to show what can be done with wireless smile

Tim Higgs
Vfast internet | Technical Support
0845 121 1257 | support (at) vfast.co.uk | twitter: @vfast_net
Standard User gr0mit
(learned) Sat 21-Apr-12 17:49:24
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: vfast_tim] [link to this post]
 
I must say that the complaints about WISP pricing are a bit harsh. I run a small WISP to fill in for parts of the town that BT have left out of FTTx upgrade. I need to make a living!

To be honest, with all this FTTX about, it actually makes filling in small communities quite viable. A leased line with fibre could be £10k installation plus £10 to £20K per annum. That just doesn't cost in if you want to provide a remote village, where the excess construction charges for several km of fibre can be many tens of thousands too!

Also BTW have announced Etherflow delivered over FTTx. This means leased line resilience without significant installation costs. So FTTx could in fact be a huge opportunity for WISPs like me to fill in using multiple cheap FTTC tails for backhaul, which is what I'm currently doing, and the model is relatively repeatable. I'm happy to chat if anyone wants ideas.

Best Regards
Tim Robinson
TxRx Communications Ltd
Fast wireless broadband for Basingstoke www.hiwifi.co.uk
Standard User anglianbroadband
(newbie) Sat 05-May-12 11:22:34
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: kijoma] [link to this post]
 
Totally spot on. None of the ADSL providers include the cost of the landline rental except perhaps ones using LLU packages.

I have experienced government broadband funding going to BT. When we are competing with BT because BT don't offer as good a service as us, it is very unfair of the government (EEDA and local councils) to give our competitor £40k to put us out of business in an area.

I think you are correct that this latest government handout will go to keeping BT ahead of their competition. If us WISPs had done a bit better in 2003 then there would not be this massive problem with UK broadband speeds by now. The modest £100k that most WISPs needed to kick start them into profit would have been a massive saving on the millions that they are going to end up giving BT this year.

It matters little to BT if a few people don't have good service, as long as no competitor is gaining ground off the back of that lost business. So much so that BT would rather be awarded the money and fail to deliver broadband than have someone actually supply the service.

The WISPs in my area are trying to get hold of this government money. I say, let them knock themselves out trying, whilst I put up more repeaters and connect more subscribers.

Connecting you to 2meg or more in rural Essex
Standard User kijoma
(committed) Sun 06-May-12 01:09:41
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: anglianbroadband] [link to this post]
 
Hi,

Indeed it is a mess and the chances of getting public money are zero at this point. Not even Defra RCBF funding is allowed to be used for FWA.

Here is something of interest as many consider Kijoma's concerns are unjustified and just "whining".

This is an extract from a Q/A response between Myself and The Broadband Program manager for West Sussex County Council. This is where Kijoma is based (West Sussex) and where we have the most extensive coverage, including the three "non ADSL" unviable exchanges. (for over 7 years)

Kijoma response/point in Italics, WSCC response in quotes.

WSCC Leader:-

"Funding is not easy to find but we have sought funds for infrastructure projects from both UK government and European sources. I am informed by my officers that the current bids for funding that there was a requirement for projects to be based on “open access” networks."

I agree funding is not easy to find, Our primary grievance is with WSCC's drive to spend funding aimed at improving broadband not spots on areas which are NOT notspots , this would be depriving other areas that are notspots from using this revenue wisely. You have plenty of not/poor spots in the county still in desperate need that could better utilise those funds and to far greater effect.


WSCC Broadband manager :-

"In the limited time allowed for this specific funding bid, WSCC took the view that the ADSL upgrade was something that would open up competition in those areas with no open access to broadband. It is unlikely that the offering in the areas would be as fast as the Kijoma closed access offering so would be more likely to appeal to those wanting minimal level of service. "

"My view of "not-spot" is that strictly speaking there is nowhere in the UK (or for that matter Western Europe) that has no coverage for broadband It is possible (although potentially very expensive) to access a broadband service by satellite, wireless or ethernet absolutely everywhere. "

"In my interpretation, I have taken that a not-spot is any location where there is no open access, reasonably priced service provided. I am aware that hard to reach and less commercially viable locations demand a premium from ISPs and the phrase “reasonably priced” would normally exclude bi-directional satellite,
Ethernet (“leased line”) or synchronous services. "

Broadband speeds of less than 2Mbps should probably be included in the definition but I have created the phrase "not-a-lot spots” for those areas.

In the case of the non-ADSL exchanges, I accept that Kijoma has coverage in those areas and that the prices are appropriate. However, a closed access service does make these locations, in my view, “not-spots” by the definition I am using.

----------------

I have emboldened significant statements that raise more questions about the decision process and why one persons view is allowed to define a LA strategy without sufficient research.

This extract of a 3 page Q/A response from the Council Leader and the Broadband Program manager at WSCC is from 2010 . Dialogue after this was limited and numerous offers to discuss what Kijoma provides, see it in action, talk to customers etc.. were declined.


Who would "want a minimal service" , i.e. one slower than 2 Mbps . Why are they able to fund ADSL exchanges, especially if the potential benefactors will receive under 2 Mbps (Especially the case for the East Marden and Sutton exchanges as they cover a wide area and possibly via aluminium cables).

We have had to have them remove at least 6 statements from their pages since 2010 that intentionally degrade our service , including :-.

"Although some areas have access to a wireless service, they do not have the benefit of a fixed line service"

"Wireless is available in some areas but the pricing is similar to Ethernet"

Publishing a complete county coverage map that omits ALLkijoma coverage.


The mention of Virgin Cable by name on the http://www.westsussex.gov.uk/living/broadband_west_s... website has been removed recently so even they have been filtered out of the equation, in name at least. Kijoma never has been named or quoted.

Understandably the 7 or is it 14 or is it 24 Million (it varies) they are going to spend on Broadband in the county is causing a lot of uncertainty with those commercial providers excluded from the equation such as Kijoma.

Our response at the moment is to see what happens and reduce or freeze any expansion/investment that has a lengthy ROI in West Sussex until we see what comes out of this public spending fiasco.

Meanwhile we will concentrate on installing new network demand outside this county in places that don't have a closed shop attitude so we have less eggs in one basket , i.e. reduce the risk, as any sensible business would do.

This of course will slow the installation of customers in West Sussex as we divert resources elsewhere. But that's the inevitable product of the uncertainty presented by the current BDUK/WSCC Broadband Framework and strategy.

So like Anglia Broadband, we will carry on installing where demand requests it. Where the risks are manageable and preferably without the uncertainty. element. Just like a profitable commercial company should smile

Cheers

Bill Lewis - MD
Kijoma Broadband - (Division of Kijoma Solutions Ltd)
Fixed wireless ISP - ISPA/CISAS/RIPE members
http://www.kijoma.net
My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User anglianbroadband
(newbie) Sun 06-May-12 10:20:08
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: kijoma] [link to this post]
 
Based on previous experience I take a cynical attitude to these government schemes. I assume there is a great deal of corruption which must result in the users and small operators being the losers and those in charge and those big companies being the winners. Once you understand the outcome it is easier to work out the game plan they are using.

If chasing the funding will drain your resources then they will encourage you to chase the funding. If including you on any coverage maps would help you then they will exclude you. If people are crying out for broadband then funding will be made available, if they get broadband then the funding dries up.

If you look at what they are doing it's obvious that they plan to keep the broadband away from people who don't have it and keep those people from finding your service. If they went much further than this then we could have them put in prison.

The council man is obviously a very smart politician who knows exactly what he is doing. By chasing the funding you are playing his game. Unless you are equally good a liar, sorry politician then you will not only lose but will have lost valuable installation and marketing time in the process.

The only democratic way of running this is as a business. The market wants broadband so the market better pay what it costs to connect it. Individual people can spend their own money how they chose. It is up to us to tell them what we can do for them and up to them to get their wallets out. Hoping some crooks and liars are going to do something good for you is an insane delusion if you are one of the good guys.

Connecting you to 2meg or more in rural Essex
Standard User kijoma
(committed) Sun 06-May-12 11:53:28
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: anglianbroadband] [link to this post]
 
Hi,

Totally Agree. We long gave up chasing any central funding as it has been made clear by all levels of the poorly educated political hierarchy that any BDUK money will go to BT. BT's pricing model for Ducts and poles drove all the other big guys away from the Framework apart from Fujitsu who are only interested it seems in certain areas. (read that as profitable large urban).

It seems a bizarre case of Stockholm Syndrome if viewed from the outside. We have one organisation holding us all Hostage but at the same time we look to them for the solution to the mess they made in the first place.

The Nigerian scammer email model is not at all dissimilar.. Keep giving your money to the man making the promises and he will keep taking it until you stop.

Then you have no money and nothing is delivered. Wait a few years then go back to the very same scammer and repeat..

I believe the money should NOT be given to any provider and as has been proven by a certain Welsh ISP, providing the funds to the end customer to pay for a service is equally flawed when the ISP sets the installation price just under the top level of the Grant. Considerably more than what it would cost to actually install.

Leave Broadband provision to the commercial industry behind it to resolve as it is more than capable of doing so with private investment. Well it is except of course nearly all existing ISP's are parasites to the near Monopoly "open access" infrastructure of Openreach and are therefore entirely dependent on it for their existence.

It is easy money for them, albeit with miniscule profit margins and total reliance on another companies network performance i.e. If you get 1 Mbps ADSL or 20 MBps FTTC from one provider then its most likely going to be the speed you get from any other as the limit is the last mile which no wholesale ISP has any control over.

Yet we are told that this "open access" model where all ISP'S pay to use it is competitive and independent companies like ours are "monopolies" as we run our own networks supplying our own customers and have the ability to upgrade/improve/expand service wherever/ whenever we wish to and the fast growing technology allows.

Having a Monopoly on a good service in an area at market comparable pricing is not an evil monster that needs squashing. It shows that other providers are unable or unwilling to compete in these areas, mainly as most are Leech like attached to one carriers infrastructure.

It would be nice if some people stopped viewing independent companies that provide them a fast reliable service as a necessary Evil that they must get away from as soon as they can so they can get "proper broadband" from their flaky old phone lines.

I won't be holding my breath waiting though as of course as soon as these people get their golden calf in the form of a disguised white elephant they will be complaining about how bad it is and demanding more money is given to the captor they so willingly wished themselves to be taken Hostage by in the first place.

If of course people released their antique grip on using phone lines for telephone too then the benefits and savings become far more evident. But this would erode the copper giants "monopoly".

We cannot have this now can we?



In reply to a post by anglianbroadband:
Based on previous experience I take a cynical attitude to these government schemes. I assume there is a great deal of corruption which must result in the users and small operators being the losers and those in charge and those big companies being the winners. Once you understand the outcome it is easier to work out the game plan they are using.

If chasing the funding will drain your resources then they will encourage you to chase the funding. If including you on any coverage maps would help you then they will exclude you. If people are crying out for broadband then funding will be made available, if they get broadband then the funding dries up.

If you look at what they are doing it's obvious that they plan to keep the broadband away from people who don't have it and keep those people from finding your service. If they went much further than this then we could have them put in prison.

The council man is obviously a very smart politician who knows exactly what he is doing. By chasing the funding you are playing his game. Unless you are equally good a liar, sorry politician then you will not only lose but will have lost valuable installation and marketing time in the process.

The only democratic way of running this is as a business. The market wants broadband so the market better pay what it costs to connect it. Individual people can spend their own money how they chose. It is up to us to tell them what we can do for them and up to them to get their wallets out. Hoping some crooks and liars are going to do something good for you is an insane delusion if you are one of the good guys.


Bill Lewis - MD
Kijoma Broadband - (Division of Kijoma Solutions Ltd)
Fixed wireless ISP - ISPA/CISAS/RIPE members
http://www.kijoma.net
My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User 5km
(knowledge is power) Sun 06-May-12 11:57:36
Print Post

Re: What next for WISPs


[re: anglianbroadband] [link to this post]
 
Hear Hear.

Just look what happened to Next Gen Us. They chased for funding but couldn't get it, wasted time and resources, now they have gone.

It's not always this way though.

O2 Broadband Premium LLU
Now on twitter @timmay2
Standard User kijoma
(committed) Mon 07-May-12 14:23:44
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: 5km] [link to this post]
 
Hi,

to be honest it looks like NGus was setup in the way many businesses are. Get an idea, have a limited supply of money, spend most of it on marketing, fancy websites, publicity and then hope you can get enough customers to actually cover all the costs later.

There seemed to be a reliance on gaining funding, effectively.

The total external funding received by Kijoma over 7 years amounts to about £7000 . £5000 was a succesful tender to provide Broadband to the Villages of East Marden, Chilgrove, Norh Marden, Up Marden and the hamlet of Hooksway in West Sussex back in 2005.

The remainder was from a District council to provide Broadband to a councillor, as part of that we also enabled access to our service to all the neighbours of said councillor. This was ~2007

So from this it should be clear we do not rely on external funding, we run commercially and profitably without the need for excess service charges or constant handouts.

What I primarily object to is having a competitor who has declared some of the areas we cover as commercially unviable for their business model/technology then as a result receiving significant amounts of Tax payers money in order to make it viable.

Another thing i also object to is the way land owners are encouraged to charge rent for wireless relay installations at "commercial mast rates" but at the same time only receive a token ~£12 a year for a telegraph pole.

A pole owned and profited from by its commercial owner, and the very Poles/Ducts that would allow them to provide a 2 Mbps ADSL service over without having to change anything or pay more rental etc..

Perhaps somebody could tell me the difference between a pole that feeds 20 houses by telephone cable and a pole that feeds 20 houses by wireless. The main difference i see is £12 a year vs £700 a year (often per aerial).

Just think of the revenue stream if every telegraph pole on private land attracted £700 a year smile



In reply to a post by 5km:
Hear Hear.

Just look what happened to Next Gen Us. They chased for funding but couldn't get it, wasted time and resources, now they have gone.

It's not always this way though.


Bill Lewis - MD
Kijoma Broadband - (Division of Kijoma Solutions Ltd)
Fixed wireless ISP - ISPA/CISAS/RIPE members
http://www.kijoma.net
My Broadband Speed Test
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Tue 08-May-12 22:50:25
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: kijoma] [link to this post]
 
I think the response to you was fair - you are proposing a service which isn't open access to other companies, where as BT laying shoddy cabling will allow competition.

It's a bit moronic in that Kijoma would offer a much better service than some [censored] overhead copper/aluminium last mile stuff, but it does make sense if your aim is just to have lots of choice.
Standard User partial
(learned) Wed 09-May-12 21:02:25
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: kijoma] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kijoma:
Makes me wish we had started in Kent and not Sussex


Call Flow seem to be quietly getting on with Wireless, LLU and Sub Loop Unbundling in Sussex. Indeed with state aid in some cases. I drive by a Call Flow SLU cabinet most days.

As I see things, the punters want broadband but they want to buy it from BT,TalkTalk and Sky. The council is right to consider this when dishing out taxpayers cash. Competition is what it's all about.

The uncomfortable truth for the small, closed to competition local operators from my experience is that their the punters regard it as second best.

Edited by partial (Wed 09-May-12 21:07:55)

Anonymous
(Unregistered)Wed 09-May-12 23:42:28
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Re: What next for WISPs


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
As a VFast user i'm glad Kijoma didn't start in Kent, would have ended up with much higher prices and lower usage limits crazy
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