Zen service heading south.. anyone recommend an ISP

I've had an regular problem in last few weeks with line drops, packet loss etc.
As a professional engineer, I keep backup routers, filters etc. and tried various solutions and informed time numerous times.
The incompetence of Zen, usually blaming BT, ignoring details etc. is astounding compared to a few years ago.
When the line eventually stays up (with irregular packet loss) they seem to think the problem is resolved.
Its comical - if you buy a bun at Tesco, its Tescos' responsibility - that's where the buck stops!

Accumulate this with recent DNS problems (which they never even bothered to reply to) and you think that at least you would get their email addresses correct!
But no - ...
just sent an email to their PR dept and got the following reply (from From: Mail Delivery System <[email protected]>)

"This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.
A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
[email protected] Unrouteable address"

you couldn't make this up!

anyone suggest a competent rolling 1 month ISP!
"022" is last part of login if anyone from ZEN awake...don't call... if you can rectify the service, do it and stop talking!

"[email protected]" on google only brings up one result - your post (and no doubt this one in a short while), where did you get that address from?

Hi

Unless you go with an LLU provider such as O2/BE, TalkTalk or Sky or perhaps Virgin cable then unfortunately they are all at the mercy of BT whom they are a customer of.

That means that unless the fault falls within BT's definition of a fault it will be rejected and bounced back to the ISP to resolve.

I believe the packet loss threshold has to be 5% (had a bit myself last year that was traced to the exchange)

I gather from frequenting various ISP's forums that they (BT) have removed a lot of the diagnostic tools that ISPs used to have at their disposal unless its BT Retail I bet.

This means that unless the automated tools determine there's a line fault (its operating below specification) then there's not much more an ISP can do.

As for a DNS issue, are you referring to the subjct of a thread I started reporting intermittent DNS service? they fixed this within 24 hours, I'm not sure what more could be expected

as for the address you were trying to mail I think it should just be @zen.co.uk

the email address was [email protected]
its their internal system that redirects to the reject address

as for the BT story etc.., that cant compensate for the push-off at start (get a bt 'engineer' to check your line for interference, our system is fine etc)

I went from Zen to vivaciti.co.uk which worked for me. I am now on SKY for other reasons, but have just moved my domain to vivaciti. Worth a check, but if you select an LLU connection then I think it is 6 mths, but you could always phone them to ask for a 'deal'.

I gather from frequenting various ISP's forums that they (BT) have removed a lot of the diagnostic tools that ISPs used to have at their disposal unless its BT Retail I bet.

If that is the case then equivalence rules have been broked and big fine is likely. Reality probably removed for all, or have been hidden away and less friendly to use as IPStream switches to WBC.

Contacts

http://www.zen.co.uk/contact-us.aspx#2

[email protected] , but that is for press enquires. Other more suitable addresses at the link

i just gave up - better things to do than listen to excuses about the BT/Zen relationship - if it's a regulatory matter it's up to them to complain about access.

will move to another ISP when suits .... they just slide slowly downhill.... much the same as Nildram did years ago

Yawn.

"anyone suggest a competent rolling 1 month ISP!"

Yep... Newnet... though they are not the cheapest around.

I think their Customer Service is next to none. Had a problem recently and their people were onto BT like a corgi goes for your trouser legs! Even after the problem was sorted, I got several follow up calls from newnet to see that I was still happy.

I just wish there was a package between their 10GB and 50GB deals. Though they do have unlimited overnight downloads.

Edited by MrBeeline (Mon 26-Sep-11 15:29:08)

I've had similar problems in last few weeks too. I am fed up with too many line drops. I telephoned to make a query about changing and getting a mac code.They offered me a 'better' price and reduced my package by £5 per month. The line drops have been worse since then. I might as well be with a cheaper provider without the hype of zen. I asked how much they charged for calling their 0845 number. The person said a few pence. I just got my bill and was charged over £1 for a ten minute call. I rang to complain and was told it was my telephone provider who charged this.Does that mean zen is not making ANY money out of these calls? I find that hard to believe. I am definitely going to move. Any more recommendations gratefully accepted.
Mnemosyne

In respect of the issue with 0845 numbers, our contact page lists the corresponding geographic number as well as the 0845 number should you wish to make use of inclusive minutes etc:

http://www.zen.co.uk/contact-us.aspx

In reply to a post by MrBeeline:

Yep... Newnet... though they are not the cheapest around........
I just wish there was a package between their 10GB and 50GB deals.

One thing to note with Newnet and probably Timico, is that their allowances are for total bandwidth - both up and downstream. Most of the others quote for downloads only. I doubt it makes much difference for the majority, but if you upload lots of photos or videos you could easily go over your allowance

Also aren't they now on a minimum 12/18 month contract?

Edited by Tacitus (Fri 30-Sep-11 15:42:49)

Re Newnet.

Must admit that I never realised about the bandwidth usage counting both up and down stream!

And "yes" you are correct, their products are now 12 month contracts. I'm on an older 1 month rolling contract, so again I had sort of forgotten about this.

PS. I see they now mention "Standard Traffic Weighting " . Not quite sure what that means but can't say I have ever noticed any slow down (other than at the usual Kiddie times).

Edited by MrBeeline (Fri 30-Sep-11 18:44:15)

You'll have the same line drop issue with the next provider.

try your router in the test socket behing your master socket. If it is still cutting out, try a different router and see if that custs out also. If not its your router, if it does cut cut, then it is a probelm outside your house. Does your phone crackle, if so raise a fault on the phone line not mentioning ADSL at all.

In reply to a post by reidca:

In respect of the issue with 0845 numbers, our contact page lists the corresponding geographic number as well as the 0845 number should you wish to make use of inclusive minutes etc:

http://www.zen.co.uk/contact-us.aspx

I noticed that later - but at the top of the web page under your company name in VERY LARGE BOLD type is the 0845 phone number that is most noticeable and which many people will think may be the only option on first seeking a telephone number.
M

In reply to a post by mnemosyne:

I've had similar problems in last few weeks too. I am fed up with too many line drops. I telephoned to make a query about changing and getting a mac code.They offered me a 'better' price and reduced my package by £5 per month. The line drops have been worse since then. I might as well be with a cheaper provider without the hype of zen. I asked how much they charged for calling their 0845 number. The person said a few pence. I just got my bill and was charged over £1 for a ten minute call. I rang to complain and was told it was my telephone provider who charged this.Does that mean zen is not making ANY money out of these calls? I find that hard to believe. I am definitely going to move. Any more recommendations gratefully accepted.
Mnemosyne

I have had line drops for the past 3 years and zen although helpful blame BT and it's in a brand new property

Bt say the line is within spec and it probably is but like all things in life the quality of both routers and the wiring from the house to the exchange has gone down hill especially the wiring the bbc program fake Britten highlighted just what builders get up to and fake wiring was a very big concern so much so not even some of the manufactures could tell what was fake or not

As for moving isp that makes no sense as BT are the problem at the end of the day as it's their wires and exchange

We have a brand new green box on our estate for fibre so I'm told so i asked when would someone be attending to it and the answer is they wont so much for bt

In reply to a post by MrBeeline:

can't say I have ever noticed any slow down (other than at the usual Kiddie times).

Which means that you do notice slowdowns, then.

Paul

Very smart.

What I meant and I expect you actually realise, is that I get no apparent slowdown accept at the expected times of days (EG. when the kids come back from school and you suddenly get countless thousands of youngsters logging onto bandwidth heavy applications like youtube). But then again, everyone gets hit at these times of day.

Sounds like exchange congestion.

In reply to a post by MrBeeline:

But then again, everyone gets hit at these times of day.

er, no.

No disrespect but... So you are trying tell me that your broadband connection runs at full pelt 24/7? You must be very lucky.

I was under the impression that there were specific times of the day (due to heavy usage) that caused congestion for pretty much everyone (to one degree or another). Or is this not the case? and if so, who do I move to get 24/7 full speed Broadband? or is this more exchange related, rather than WEB wide (so to speak).

I would have rated my current ISP as pretty good. Fair enough I don't have a lot of choice, stuck on ADSL max. But get approx. 6.5mbps during the day, around 4:30/5PM (weekdays) this drops to more like 4 mbps. Picking back up to full speed round about 11PM. From everything I've read, this sort of behaviour is pretty normal.

PS. Not looking for a flame war here. Just genuinely interested. So one line comments are not really very helpful.

Edited by MrBeeline (Sun 02-Oct-11 16:19:36)

In reply to a post by MrBeeline:

I was under the impression that there were specific times of the day (due to heavy usage) that caused congestion for pretty much everyone (to one degree or another). Or is this not the case? and if so, who do I move to get 24/7 full speed Broadband?

Not always. This can depend on the ISP, even the exchange you're connected to.

Some ISPs will see congestion, others will not.
Some ISPs traffic shape, others do not.
Some exchanges will see peak time congestion, others will not.
Some "networks" at a certain exchange will see congestion, yet other "networks" at an exchange will not.

Matt

In reply to a post by uno:

In reply to a post by MrBeeline:

I was under the impression that there were specific times of the day (due to heavy usage) that caused congestion for pretty much everyone (to one degree or another). Or is this not the case? and if so, who do I move to get 24/7 full speed Broadband?

Not always. This can depend on the ISP, even the exchange you're connected to.

Some ISPs will see congestion, others will not.
Some ISPs traffic shape, others do not.
Some exchanges will see peak time congestion, others will not.
Some "networks" at a certain exchange will see congestion, yet other "networks" at an exchange will not.

Matt

Thanks for that. Very informative.

I expect it's my local rural exchange then. You live and learn, as they say.

Edited by MrBeeline (Sun 02-Oct-11 16:06:32)

Possibly.

Using the BT test login to run a speedtest would show if it is exchange level congestion or the ISP.

Matt

Good point.

I've tried this in the recent past (had what turned out to be a "hot VP" issue). And the sorts of figures / throughput I mentioned above are identical if I do this.

Considering how far out in the sticks I live. I would consider my connection pretty reasonable, better than 34db downward attn would seem to imply (7150k IP profile and interleaving off). So not too unhappy. C21 upgrade latter in the year targeted for my local exchange TBC as they say.

I'd better stop posting so much "off topic" in some one else thread.

Thanks again.

Edited by MrBeeline (Sun 02-Oct-11 16:42:39)

In reply to a post by MrBeeline:

No disrespect but... So you are trying tell me that your broadband connection runs at full pelt 24/7? You must be very lucky, or have some sort of "special" Broadband connection. Or at least better than mine.

I'm on BE LLU

I was under the impression that there were specific times of the day (due to heavy usage) that caused congestion for pretty much everyone (to one degree or another). Or is this not the case? and if so, who do I move to get 24/7 full speed Broadband? or is this more exchange related, rather than WEB wide (so to speak).

It's all to do with the exhorbitant cost of bandwidth charged by BT. If you can avoid this you're on your way to a better broadband experience

I would have rated my current ISP as pretty good. Fair enough I don't have a lot of choice, stuck on ADSL max. But get approx. 6.5mbps during the day, around 4:30/5PM (weekdays) this drops to more like 4 mbps. Picking back up to full speed round about 11PM. From everything I've read, this sort of behaviour is pretty normal.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with BT-based ISPs, it's just that they're in business to make money

PS. Not looking for a flame war here. Just genuinely interested. So one line rebukes are not really very helpful.

It's a convenient lie adopted by BT-based ISP's. Users of LLU ISPs know different. I'm sure you would find the same with Sky Unlimited too.

BatBoy

Thanks for that.

You've shed a fair bit of light on things for me.

Just wish I had more choice. Probably pretty much stuck with a BT based solution for the near future (forever?). One of the few downsides with living in the countryside. That and it's a 5 mile round trip to the local pub!

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with BT-based ISPs, it's just that they're in business to make money

As much as every other ISP including LLU ones, when the profit margins drop don`t expect them to run them at a loss for long!

as the one who started the discussion...

Zen have gone downhill - the staff are polite but education wise at NVQ grade (Not Very Quick) and just repeat the standard questions from the screen - they were offering an excellent service but now its always 'your' fault until you shout and shout..
when they were offered data logs to prove packet loss, Zen just ignored the offer!

as a funny aside, the have an arbitration service - cisas.org.uk -
type cisas.org.uk without the 'www' and you get 'server not found' -
that level of incompetence and they adjudicate on ISP service????

you couldn't make it up!

In reply to a post by zenjune04:

type cisas.org.uk without the 'www' and you get 'server not found'

Why is not finding a server when you type the wrong name incompetence?

Paul

Lack of an A record.

There is a server www.cisas.org.uk, and no server cisas.org.uk (hence no A-record) - why is that incompetence?

Yes, I know that some people (me included) add an alias for their www.<whatever> server without the www; but that is in no way required, and is at least as frequently not done.

Paul

I am going to lead to the defence of ZEN.
I have had problems with a couple of BT lines and didn't involve Zen at the start. BT Open reaqch are a law unto themselves and have built an almost inpenetrable wall around so that no-one can get direct contact unless you have a spare 40 minutes to hang on the end of a line. I logged the call initially vai the internet BT fault reporting site. I had no response after 48 hours and started a hate relationship with BT's voice system. After I finally got a response I was told that the call had, for some unknown reason, not been passed to Open Reach. An engineer turned up two days later and measured the line distance that the fault was and then said that he wasn't qualified to lift and work in a manhole!

To cut the first part of the story short, an engineer turned up who was qualified (!) and said that due to an earlier (years earlier?) economy drive, aluminium cabling had been used instead of copper and as we are frequently soused by a salt-laden Sou'Westerly, the aluminium is corroding. (is this true?) 12 days with no voice - and slow ADSL.

The second line went after another week and so I made Openreach do a full trace of the second curcuit - the previous BT openreach installation on this second extention was a dog's breakfast. Sorted finally but no ADSL - ZEN tech Support leapt into action at 08:00 and diagnosed a faulty ADSL filter at 08:15. Thanks Chris -

I've changed the ADSL circuit onto the newly reconstituted aluminium circuit and my download speed has gone up from 5.5mbs to 6.5 so if you are having line drops its probably not ZEN but BT's gently aging circuits from the exchange to your house. Be prepared to argue at length though to avoid the £130 call-out charge.

In reference to the not being qualified to lift and work in a manhole, I was discussing this with someone who used to work for BT recently, and yes that is true. The underground ducts run the risk of trapped gases from various sources, so only those with the correct testing, and maybe breathing, equipment are allowed to enter the manholes. The general engineer that visits the premises doesn't usually have this training.

We're in 2011. Nobody should have to type www. before the domain. Incompetent sysadmins!

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

We're in 2011. Nobody should have to type www. before the domain. Incompetent sysadmins!

Another poster who doesn't "get" DNS

http://www.batboyfailshard.com/whatanastyurl

idiot

^_^

you pro!

I get 'DNS'..

I get customer service, accessibility and usability even better

The stupidity of even arguing in 2011 that a user should have to type 'www' probably indicates you should apply to Zen for a job.

The ZEN response has been 'if that gateway was causing a problem other customers would have reported it!" and their firm belief that if you have a stable connection you have 'reliability' (you can be 'reliably wrong' but that passes over their heads..)

When it comes to making an official complaint..
take a look at the complaint procedure - 5 levels to get to MD and then a month extra for him to reply!
.... "the manager will provide the necessary instructions to enable a written complaint to be made to the Managing Director who will respond in writing within 20 working days of receipt."
(you have to get written instructions on how to write a complaint )

Thats right - it takes the MD of ZEN a month to reply to a complaint addressed to him.
ZEN has become overpriced with average service available at half the price elsewhere...

Is it any wonder they have given up in customer service - last time I tried to call, I was transferred to accounts as there was 'no-one in Customer Service' (they weren't busy - they just were not there)
ironically it was to remove a service to another supplier....

..and before someone else with 5NVQs (not very quick * 5) pops in about DNS, users don't give a damn about technical details - they just want service

ps I have a Degree in Engineering with 25 years experience including mistakes which i learn from daily!
story closed..

In reply to a post by zenjune04:

The stupidity of even arguing in 2011 that a user should have to type 'www'

But that is not what was said. The point is that if a site is set up with only a name that includes "www." (a choice I would generally disagree with) it is futile to complain that looking up the similar name without "www." doesn't provide the answer.

In reply to a post by zenjune04:

ps I have a Degree in Engineering with 25 years experience including mistakes which i learn from daily!
story closed..

How is that relevant? In any case, others can claim the same (e.g. me, if you change the 25 to 40).

Paul

www.xxx is a subdomain of xxx (within same TLD)
www="world wide web"

since when do we look for 'similar' names..?

we expect bbc to be exactly the same as www.bbc.. ..that is the basic concept of DNS and the use of the subdomain www -

as for experience.. it is relevant if you learn...
as for being a Professional Engineer, yes, it helps when you're talking to a BT or ZEN 'engineer'.
on the same note ISPs tend to have a lower level of staff education than Mobile Telcos - telcos service affecst revenue so they invest to protect revenue ( a few hours of lost SMS service is expensive)
- ISPs receive no immediate revenue loss for bad service!

and lets face it 'engineering' at a professional level is hardly even understood in England - hence 'BT engineer' for somone who fixes a telephone cable

Edited by deleted (Thu 03-Nov-11 12:07:06)

we expect bbc to be exactly the same as www.bbc.

Who is "we"?

I'm not going to enter into the "my qualifications are better than yours" or "I understand DNS, but you don't" discussions. I just wanted to say that, today, I sent an e-mail to Zen customer support. I received an automated reply, which didn't come anywhere close to even approaching relevance to my query, and finished with a comment that I would receive no further responses.

That's the sort of response I came to expect from Virgin Net, not what I would expect from Zen.

Can someone remind me exactly why I'm paying a premium price for my ADSL service?

Whoever is setting up these websites is doing it wrong, its a simple procedure and non www queries should redirect to the www part of their site, thats how my website is setup and quite a few other people have it that way as well, i prefer the full www to show in the browser but it can be setup easily to display with www or without.

I thought about plugging my website for a moment, but it gets enough visitors and its in my profile for anyone to check.

I cancelled my Zen account today, not because it was a bad service, speeds were decent, reliability was good, last time i called customer services they did everything possible to help me, you have to do standard tests, no point thinking you are better than the tech guy on the other line and talking down to him, even if you are better, i know quite a bit about tech stuff with routers and broadband, but not everything, anyways i cancelled because of the price, trying to save my pennies, hopefully i will not regret the decision to leave.

Maybe in the last six months standards have dropped, i don't know, i do see a few more complaints popping up these days about Zen, that never used to happen, for me its the price and the need to cut back which had me looking at the alternative, i also plan to cut back some more and look at alternatives for my website hosting.

Edited by deleted (Thu 03-Nov-11 18:30:17)

In reply to a post by Trellis:

I'm not going to enter into the "my qualifications are better than yours" or "I understand DNS, but you don't" discussions. I just wanted to say that, today, I sent an e-mail to Zen customer support. I received an automated reply, which didn't come anywhere close to even approaching relevance to my query, and finished with a comment that I would receive no further responses.

That's the sort of response I came to expect from Virgin Net, not what I would expect from Zen.

Can someone remind me exactly why I'm paying a premium price for my ADSL service?

Did you mail the DNS master address, Trellis?

I think they prefer you to e-mail dnsupport AT Zen DOT co DOT UK

In reply to a post by zenjune04:

we expect bbc to be exactly the same as www.bbc.. ..

As for the to www or not to www debate, I do agree but it is convention rather than any technical reason why this is so, as you point out yourself www is a subdomain of yourdomain.com just las forums is a subdomain of thinkbroadband but the A records can differ so that each can point to a different serving device and then we get onto aanonical names as aliases.....

Neither Zen nor any ISP can influence this, their resolvers can only cache the available records.

I think your comments about ISPs hiring people with a lower standard of qualification is a little uncalled for.

An individual you speak to maybe a specialist in a specific area but not precisely the area your query relates to so they may have to seek assistance from a colleague, this is particularly true when dealing with a company such as Zen who offer a range of services, better to be really good at a specific area than a 'jack of all trades and master of none'

Troubleshooting steps also have to be followed and in my experience with Zen provided you are polite and work with them they are more than willing to help.

In a lot of causes unfortunately issues are beyond an ISP's control because as far as I am aware they can run BT line tests but just get a pass or fail, if its a pass BT will reject any fault report, the ISP is as much a customer of BT as you are a customer of the ISP.

Edited by techguy (Thu 03-Nov-11 19:57:05)

I've heard on the grapevine that some of the best staff have left Zen in the past few years either to join ISP rivals or moving into similar industries with better job progression and pay. A sign of the times I guess.

and now these idiots at ZEN try to insist on billing for a cancelled hosting service.

'.. It appear that you Cpanel service - xxxxxxxxxxxxx does not appear
to have been cancelled.
Please contact our Customer Services on 0845 058 9000 (option 4) and
they will be more than happy to look into this for you..............
'
it appears that ...does not appear ..... does anyone not trying to rip you off write like that?

why talk on a phone when I've already written to them and used 'LiveChat' and telephoned and had it confirmed verbally (they wouldn't put it in writing)

what a bunch of timewasters...reminiscent of the old Orange service

Totally different customer service experience to you.

14 days ago informed by email that my exchange was being upgraded to ADSL2+ by BT.
Early hours of this morning, upgrade occured. Found internet not connecting this morning but router was synching with DSLAM at the exchange.

Telephoned technical support - about 08.30 'ish - phone answered immediately.
Explained situation; after a few checks, informed that this would need to be looked at in more depth.
Informed that I would be telephoned within 25-30 mins.
Contacted after 25 mins that all was now OK.
Internet connection re-established.

I have no idea whether or not this was a Zen issue or a BT issue, frankly I don't give a damn where the problem lay.

What I do know is that from first contact with Zen to problem resolution was under 30 mins. Many thanks to Lance.
I doubt that any other ISP could beat that and most would not even come close to matching ZEN's respone and resolution time.

Many moons ago, I was a subscriber to the servcies provide by Virgin. I have no idea what Virgin is like these days but it took me 3 days to get through to virgin support and all I got was a script monkey that knew less than me!

Edited by deleted (Thu 10-Nov-11 23:53:47)

I am a bit concerned, i have moved to a new internet provider, (Talk Talk LLU ) and i did this through the customer portal at Zen, the account currently shows £-1.94 so it seems i am in credit although i am not sure of this.

( The username for this site actually represents the fact i have had Talk Talks phone service for years and is not connected with the broadband )

What concerns me is that i am still able to access the customer portal despite being with Talk Talk now, i have emailed customer support to query this but have so far not received a reply, in the past i have found Zen customer support to be fast and responsive, it seems slower now.

If i still have access to the customer portal does this mean i will be charged or is my account truly cancelled, i'm not sure, perhaps a representative from Zen who frequents the boards could answer that question.

Edited by deleted (Mon 21-Nov-11 19:28:36)

I'm currently in the process of migrating away. I would suggest you ring in the morning as I did today to hurry up my MAC. I will also be watching this but you could check in cancellation tracking in the portal to see if the service is truely completely cancelled.

Under cancel a service i click it and nothing is there so that means there is no longer a service to cancel. I click view cancellations in progress and then click view i get this below.

03-Nov-2011 Cease confirmation received from BT and the cancellation request item''s date due to be cancelled has been updated to 18/11/2011
03-Nov-2011 Cease confirmation received from BT and the cancellation request item''s date due to be cancelled has been updated to 18/11/2011

I also see the request is still listed as being open when i click the + part, i no longer see any internet services listed for me so that hopefully means i am cancelled but i just find it strange that the portal is still open to me and i can still log in.

It also says this, Once cancellation requests are modified by Zen staff, they become locked and can no longer be edited within the portal. If you wish to modify a locked cancellation request, well i can still edit my request despite it being cancelled, thats a bit strange, i hope the direct debit has been cancelled with Zen and i don't have to do it at my end.

Well despite having a credit note for £7 they deducted £5 today from my bank account, i don't understand why they didn't just use the credit note and pay me £2.

Can i actually get this £7 credit back. ?

Bit annoyed about this because they have not replied to the email i sent to customer services last week regarding this.

Edited by deleted (Tue 29-Nov-11 00:18:51)

In reply to a post by TalkTalk1969:

Well despite having a credit note for £7 they deducted £5 today from my bank account, i don't understand why they didn't just use the credit note and pay me £2.

Because you didn't tell them to. It seems strange to me, and to some others, but that's they way they work, and they seem able to justify it.

Paul

I did ask them to in the email i sent via the customer portal which has been unreplied to.

Edited by deleted (Tue 29-Nov-11 09:47:59)