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I currently have ADSLMax on my line and my exchange recently was 21CN enabled so Zen are now going to migrate me to WBMC kit instead of the IPstream or IPSC that I have now.
Can anyone tell me if that results in an ADSL profile on the WBMC service, or does it automatically get regraded to ADSL2?
For the time being I would rather not upset the applecart because my line is not totally stable even though it manages 4.5Mbps or so sync rate, I just wondered what is going to happen in a bit more detail.
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Brian
Zen Active 8000
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After Zen migrate your line it remains as ADSL and you will find an option to regrade to ADSL2 in the portal. However at that kind of sync speed it might not be worthwhile unless the extra upload speed is of interest.
Edited by jphilip (Mon 09-Jul-12 23:29:32)
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After Zen migrate your line it remains as ADSL and you will find an option to regrade to ADSL2 in the portal. However at that kind of sync speed it might not be worthwhile unless the extra upload speed is of interest.
Agreed - generally below 6 meg you have a reduced chance of seeing faster speeds - and can even see slower speeds on ADSL2+. We generally wouldn't recommend regrading a 4.5 meg line.
regards,
Phil.
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My line used to sync at 4544 on ADSL1.
I regraded to 21CN and forced my router to connect on ADSL2 instead of 2+.
Running at 6700 now on a 3db SNR - 48db attenuation.
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SamKnows says our local exchange has a 21CN WBC RFS date of 30/09/2012.
The line currently gets 5383 kbps download and 369 kbps upload on a speed test.
The router (Vigor 2820n) says:
Up speed 448,000
Down speed 6,752,000
SNR 14
Loop Att 35
We're about 1.5 miles (2.4km) from the telephone exchange.
The Vigor can load a specific firmware update to accommodate ADSL2+.
http://www.draytek.co.uk/support/downloads.html
http://www.draytek.co.uk/support/download/readme_v28...
With the 2820n, the line is rock solid reliable. An old SpeedTouch router constantly dropped the line, but I really think that was down to the router rather than the line.
Looking at the stats, can anyone tell me if the line would be good enough for ADSL2+?
How soon after the RFS date would I be able to upgrade?
Thanks
Finn
Edited by deleted (Wed 11-Jul-12 11:54:35)
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You could get 10 Meg on ADSL2+, but you are currently running about 1 Meg slow on ADSL.
1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
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On a line with 35db you could be pushing 10-11Mb easily - looks like you may have a noise problem though if it's not running at 8128 on ADSL1.
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Many thanks for the 2 replies above.
Anything I can do to investigate/rectify the noise problem?
TIA
Finn
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In first instance, grab a set of stats from the master sockets internal test socket
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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You mean take the plate off the front of the master socket, plug a filter into the internal test socket, plug the router into that and then re do the speed test and see what the Vigor connects at?
TIA
Finn
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Hi
I plugged the router into the internal test socket inside the master socket.
The line got 5389 kbps download and 368 kbps upload on a speed test.
PREVIOUSLY 5383 / 369
The Vigor 2820n reported:
Up speed 448,000 - PREVIOUSLY 448,000
Down speed 6,750,000 - PREVIOUSLY 6,752,000
SNR 14 - PREVIOUSLY 14
Loop Att 35 - PREVIOUSLY 35
Virtually identical to the original tests.
Can I draw a conclusion from this?
TIA
Finn
Edited by deleted (Wed 11-Jul-12 14:40:44)
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That tells us your wiring is of little or no influence.
Suspect you are on a 15 target noise margin, and that is what is holding your connection speed down.
http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/calc/calculator.php
Suggests a range of 5800Kbps to 7110Kbps for that attenuation if using ADSL.
When moving to 21CN ADSL2+ the target margins usually get all reset, and you might manage 12 to 18 Meg.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Hey Andrew
Many thanks for the info and advice. I'll contact Zen support to see what I have to do about regrading when the line is updated.
Appreciate your help and kindness
Finn
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G'Day finn123,
you can regrade via the customer Portal when the line has been updated.
Kindest Regards,
Leo
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Hey Leo
Thanks for that. As soon as SamKnows shows the exchange as having been updated, I can request the change on the portal, or do I need to wait for Zen to do anything else after BT have done their thing?
TIA
Finn
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Once the account has been migrated across you'll recieve an email to that effect from ourselves. This email wll also tell you what to do 
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Personally I would monitor via https://www.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/main.html
SamKnows can be slow at picking up single exchanges gaining WBC
Once BT Wholesale is live, since Zen already sell WBC from other exchanges, there is nothing unusual beyond the usual regrade order.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Hi Leo and Andrew
Many thanks to both of you for the help and advice: noted.
Am looking forward to getting a faster connection.
Have a great weekend
Finn
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Hey Andrew
Just checked the link you mentioned and you're right about updated info. SamKnows has the date as 30/09/2012, but BT has now got this as: "Your exchange is planned to have ADSL2+ by 31st August 2012"
Cheers
Finn
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Well once it loses that warning and gives the ADSL2+ speed estimates then its live e.g.
"Your exchange is ADSL enabled, and our initial test on your line indicates that your line should be able to have an ADSL broadband service that provides a fixed line speed up to 2Mbps.
Our test also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL Max broadband line speed of 4Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 2.5Mbps and 7Mbps.
Our test also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL2+ broadband line speed of 5Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 3Mbps and 7.5Mbps. Our test also indicates that your line could support an estimated ADSL 2+ Annex-M broadband upstream line speed of 1Mbps and downstream line speed of 5Mbps; typically the downstream speed would range between 3Mbps and 7.5Mbps."
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Thanks, again, for that extra info, Andrew
BW
Finn
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You mean take the plate off the front of the master socket, plug a filter into the internal test socket, plug the router into that and then re do the speed test and see what the Vigor connects at?
TIA
Finn
You don't need a filter in the test socket, anything that needs one will have been disconnected by removing the front plate.
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Brian
Zen Active 8000
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After Zen migrate your line it remains as ADSL and you will find an option to regrade to ADSL2 in the portal. However at that kind of sync speed it might not be worthwhile unless the extra upload speed is of interest.
Well it looks like a regrade is not going to be helpful at present, sync speed has fallen to just about 4Mbps with an SNR margin of 12dB and an attenuation of 40.5dB. Something in my line is damaged but I can't find it in the house and the variability seems to suggest an E-side problem somewhere. I don't have an NTE5 master socket either so can't easily get a test socket result.
If we ever get FTTC here I might get a cure then I suppose.
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Brian
Zen Active 8000
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Morning Bud,
Have you called support and asked them to look into the issue? If not can you do this please and then PM the fault ref.
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Unless you want to put a phone in to the socket at the same time.
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Unless you want to put a phone in to the socket at the same time.
Well, yes, but the point of the test socket is to only have to the ADSL modem connected to the line
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Brian
Zen Active 8000
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Just seen that the local exchange has been upgraded to ADSL2+
+++++++++++
Our test also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL2+ broadband line speed of 4Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 3Mbps and 7Mbps. Our test also indicates that your line could support an estimated ADSL 2+ Annex-M broadband upstream line speed of 500Kbps and downstream line speed of 4Mbps; typically the downstream speed would range between 3Mbps and 7Mbps.
+++++++++++
Going to contact customer services to ask about the regrade.
Yippeeeeeeeeeee
Edited by deleted (Thu 09-Aug-12 14:30:55)
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Hi Finn 123
Did you get this sorted
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Hi Mick
In progress as such. Farhad from Zen kindly replied to say:
++++++++++++++++++++
The exchange itself has been upgraded however we before we can regrade your service we have to wait for a window where we can get your line moved over to the new equipment in the exchange. We've have been given a provisional date for this move to be Sept 2012 however please be aware this may change.
+++++++++++++++++++++
So I'm just waiting and hoping 
Cheers
Finn
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After Zen migrate your line it remains as ADSL and you will find an option to regrade to ADSL2 in the portal. However at that kind of sync speed it might not be worthwhile unless the extra upload speed is of interest.
Agreed - generally below 6 meg you have a reduced chance of seeing faster speeds - and can even see slower speeds on ADSL2+. We generally wouldn't recommend regrading a 4.5 meg line.
regards,
Phil.
This is all fairly tricky and difficult to get to a final answer.
I have decided to take the regrade plunge, but that resulted in massive problems as my old Draytek 2800 just doesn't seem to want to play nicely with the new MSAN and its IFTN chipset. I tried various firmwares but none helped. I was able to sync at 4.7Mbps at 5-7dB SNR margin but throughput was awful with dial-up speeds much of the time. On G.GMT modulation the line attenuation was showing up as 41dB but with G.992.5 ADSL2+ it fell to 38dB. I know that the 2800 has not been great for many people so clearly it isn't really much good on my line.
I bit the bullet and decided to go for something with more chance of working, and have now installed a Draytek 2830.
This is syncing at about 5.6Mbps at present, 3dB SNR margin, and throughput is much higher although I suspect I have to do some more tweaking as the MTU is too low at present leading to fragmentation from LAN->WAN.
I'm only on day 4 of the 10 day training period so I'll see how it goes. It's clearly already much better than the older router and I have the option of using a separate modem and the ethernet WAN2 port either now or in the future (if I ever have the chance to use FTTC/VDSL with an external modem).
Thanks for your help and suggestions here.
--
Brian
Zen Active 8000
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Just got the email from Zen to say that the BB connection has successfully been upgraded to "up to 16Mbps" this morning.
Joy!
Have got a Vigor 2020n router, have installed the firmware recommended for ADSL2+ Annex M lines, and have changed the modulation to G.992.5 as directed by Zen's email.
Seems to be working and the speed test now shows a download of 6663 kbps (up from 5389) and 731 upload (up from 368). Better figures, which will hopefully improve during the 10 day training period.
Other stats say:
Up speed 888,888 - PREVIOUSLY 448,000
Down speed 7,695,464 - PREVIOUSLY 6,752,000
SNR 15 - PREVIOUSLY 14
Loop Att 33 - PREVIOUSLY 35
The WAN Internet Access settings say:
Multi-PVC channel > Channel 1
VPI > 0
VCI > 38
Encapsulating Type > VC MUX
Protocol > PPPoA
Modulation > ADSL2+ (G.992.5)
WAN Connection Detection > ARP Direct
Ping IP > (BLANK)
TTL > (BLANK)
MTU > 1442 This setting has a note beside it saying Max 1492, which I assume means the MTU number can be manually changed.
I *think* everything is running as it should be, but if anyone has any suggestions for tweaks, I'd be very happy to have some advice.
Cheers
Finn
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Not sure about using the special firmware for Annex M - Zen don't offer Annex M - but I would leave as is during the training period.
If your line is stable BT systems may reduce your target SNR giving a corresponding increase in speed - if it does not decrease the target SNR over the next few weeks I would contact support and ask for it to be reduced.
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Many thanks for the tips and advice.
I *believe* the firmware does both ADLS2+ and Annex M, so I think it is okay. Or maybe I have misunderstood that?!?
Has been rock solid reliable today.
http://www.draytek.co.uk/support/download/readme_v28...
Will keep an eye on the SNR as you recommend and contact Zen in a couple of weeks if need be.
Cheers
Finn
Edited by deleted (Thu 27-Sep-12 18:08:48)
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Hi Mick
Got the line updated today - seamless Zen reliability.
I have got a Vigor 2820n router, for which the firmware notes say:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Release Notes for Vigor2820 series
Firmware Version : 3.3.7.2 (Release)
Release Date : 19th June 2012
Build Date : 23rd May 2012
Applicable Models : Vigor2820, Vigor2820n, Vigor2820Vn, Vigor2820Vsn
ADSL Modem Code : 232201
Locale : UK Only / Annex A Only (inc UK Annex M)
NOTE: ADSL Modem Codes
For general purpose usage on UK lines, modem code 232201 is recommened
For ADSL2+ Annex M lines, the latest modem code 2471201 is suggested
http://www.draytek.co.uk/support/download/readme_v28...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If I am now on an ADSL2+ line, do you know if I should use (1) the "general purpose" code or (2) the "ADSL2+ Annex M" code?
The Annex M bit is making me have doubts about using the second option of the firmware.
With thanks in advance
Finn
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Hi
You should use the general purpose" code as we dont use Annex M
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Your line is running slow. Should be getting about 13 Meg @ 6 dB NM or possibly 11 Meg @ 15 dB NM that you are currently on.
Surprised your attenuation (Loop Att) decreased; usually in increases by 3 dB when going from ADSL to ADSL2+. Could be due to using diff routers.
Forget Annex M. Your ISP don't supply it and with other ISPs it's usually a chargeable extra. It probably won't benefit you anyway.
1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
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Hi Mick
Many thanks for the advice. Am now using the general purpose code. My misreading of the Vigor help file.
Many thanks, XRaySpeX. It only switched to ADSL2+ on Thur 27 Sept, so I guess the line is in the training period. Haven't been in for a couple of days, but the router has been on over the weekend and the stats have crept up:
Up speed 1,117,530 - PRE ADSL2+ 448,000
Down speed 9,144,888 - PRE ADSL2+ 6,752,000
SNR 12 - PRE ADSL2+ 14
Loop Att 38 - PRE ADSL2+ 35
So the Loop Att has gone up by 3 dB exactly as you predicted. Possibly/Probably because I had the wrong firmware.
Appreciate all the help everyone on the forum has given. Definitely looks as though things are improving. Can notice the faster download speed.
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Over the last couple of years, the speed on my line (connected to the master socket) has gradually dropped:
OCTOBER 2012
Up speed 1,117,530 - PRE ADSL2+ 448,000
Down speed 9,144,888 - PRE ADSL2+ 6,752,000
SNR 12 - PRE ADSL2+ 14
Loop Att 38 - PRE ADSL2+ 35
JULY 2014
Up speed 1,171,805
Down speed 5,272,000
SNR 15
Loop Att 39
Router and wiring still the same. No line noise when completing a BT quiet test.
Anyone have any suggestions?
With thanks
Finn
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The rise in target noise margin from 12 to 15 accounts for the drop in speed probably i.e. DLM has kicked in and slowed you down for a reason (exact reason unknown)
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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couldnt finn123 ask for the DLM to be rest on hes connection?
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Many thanks for the two replies above.
I'll ask Zen if it is possible to reset the DLM.
Much appreciated
Finn
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Hi,
It can be done, however if you've not changed anything to improve matters then in all likelihood DLM will move the line back to what you currently see.
It's worth checking with newer wiring/filters or at the very least monitoring from the BT test socket to ensure it's not some degradation in your internal wiring or internal wiring picking up interference that wasn't there previously (you not changing anything in your setup doesn't mean nothing has changed - such as environmental changes or wear-and-tear).
A reset of DLM is a temporary solution, which can introduce instability if there are problems somewhere on the line until it moves you back to a stable speed; hence always best to look at potential causes for the speed reduction and eliminate them.
ta,
Phil.
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Thanks, Phil. The stats are from when the router is connected to the BT test socket.
Guess things might have changed "outside". Rural village which always gets a lot of weathering.
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